Community Growth Discussion

[Jamb]

As a person who recently switched from Brawl to Melee a couple months ago, I feel like you need to play a variety of different people, good and bad. I agree that playing less skilled opponents will cause you to develop a lot of bad habits, but it offers you room to develop solid tech skill and execution.

 

[Teczer0]

I think that can sorta be extended to most if not all games.

I mean if you never win because you only play players better than you its hard to have a lot of fun as opposed to playing a whole spectrum of different people.

And imo, the more fun you have the more likely you'd be willing to try to improve.

 

[Massive]

A thought occurs.

Now, Brawl has a much more liberal stagelist than Melee.

Perhaps a thread somewhere, explaining in depth, exactly why each stage is banned that is. I mean, I myself am mystified as to why Mushroom Kingdom II is banned.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRBZKre9M_M&feature=player_detailpage#t=10s
A visual example to explain the text one.

Generally speaking the current stagelist was derived by trial and error in attempts to benefit less maneuverable/lower tier characters without giving any advantage to higher tiers (the recent trend of pokemon stadium off in neutrals is evidence of this).

It's pretty easy to see why many stages are banned if you understand the basic things that make a 'fair' stage.

Stages are generally excluded if they
1. Have random stage hazards
2. Have permanent vertical walls or walk-off death (this rule was invented for fox)
3. Have the potential for unpunishable match stalling (Hyrule Temple is an obvious one here)
4. Have level geometry that moves/changes in unpredictable ways.

There are still a lot of stages which could be legal by these rules, but aren't. They are usually left to the TO's discretion (Mute city, Jungle Japes, Corneria, et al.) but generally banned for other reasons based on high level observations of match balance.

 

[Juggleguy]

You need to face players worse than you to develop a good offensive game. Work on controlling the pace, finishing off tech chases or combos, and applying constant pressure to create bad habits from your opponent.

You need to face players better than you to develop a good defensive game. Work on eliminating your own bad habits, taking advantage of fewer openings, and getting back control / stopping the bleeding when you're getting punished.

You need to face players at the same skill level to put everything together and polish up your game. Work on tech skill consistency, mixups for approach and recovery, and adapting to an opponent who is essentially your equal.

 

[Bones0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRBZKre9M_M&feature=player_detailpage#t=10s
A visual example to explain the text one.

Generally speaking the current stagelist was derived by trial and error in attempts to benefit less maneuverable/lower tier characters without giving any advantage to higher tiers (the recent trend of pokemon stadium off in neutrals is evidence of this).

It's pretty easy to see why many stages are banned if you understand the basic things that make a 'fair' stage.

Stages are generally excluded if they
1. Have random stage hazards
2. Have permanent vertical walls or walk-off death (this rule was invented for fox)
3. Have the potential for unpunishable match stalling (Hyrule Temple is an obvious one here)
4. Have level geometry that moves/changes in unpredictable ways.

There are still a lot of stages which could be legal by these rules, but aren't. They are usually left to the TO's discretion (Mute city, Jungle Japes, Corneria, et al.) but generally banned for other reasons based on high level observations of match balance.

All the stages you listed have stage hazards... Mute City cars, Jungle Japes klaptraps, and Corneria Arwings.

 

[Marth307]

He said RANDOM stage hazards cornerias is kinda random....whats everyone think about fourside??I love that stage...but anyway mute sities hazards arn't random jj's hazard never even seems to bother me when i play

 

[Bones0]

Corneria isn't "kinda" random. You have no way of telling when the Arwings will come as far as I know, and even if you did you don't know who they are gong to shoot at. Pretty sure the Mute City cars don't all come at the same part of the track each time. I haven't played JJ in a while, but you can get pwned by klaptraps pretty frequently, depending on how often you are on the ledge.

I wouldn't say stage hazards have to be random to qualify a ban anyway. Brinstar's lava follows a set pattern, but it still plays way too big of a role in game play. It eliminates the majority of options when it goes above the stage, it prevents deaths when the lava is high, and it does insane damage to fast fallers who can't get out until after they eat 60%.


I don't even know why I'm explaining this. Dirt keeps bringing up Brawl for some reason. We're clearly past that so just drop it.

 

[Strong Badam]

Mute City's cars and the Arwing isn't gamechanging, though. The main reason those stages are banned are that Mute City's lack of ledges just ***** several recoveries and that Corneria's blastlines essentially say **** you to characters that focus on horizontal KOs. It also promotes campy gameplay, which is undesired by a majority of the competitive community.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

There's also a wall on Corneria. I really don't feel like Fox going ahead and ****** me against it.

 

[Bones0]

You can actually SDI out of shines on the Corneria wall because it's curved... but that is irrelevant to this topic anyway. -.-

 

[Marth307]

Dirt has no say in this topic cause he brawls XD JK dirt....i seriously dont see why mute city is banned so what if it doesn't have ledges there is a legendary piece of advice that you could follow so it wouldn't matter DON'T GET HIT

 

[Dark Hart]

1. Mute City has no ledge's, and has cars

2. Don't get hit is the stupidest argument ever lol

 

[Marth307]

rofl mute city is sooo fun though it should at least be a counter pick

 

[Dark Hart]

I ****ing hate mute city lol, it's like, you spend 50% of the match recovering and trying not to get hit by cars while simultaneously exploiting the fact that there are no ledges

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Hey, what say we pick this up in the stage discussion thread?

*EDIT* Which has also mysteriously vanished, apparently.

 

[Dark Hart]

it's because the stage discussion thread was a joke lol

 

[Matt07]

Moving to Sudbury, Ontario would grow our community of 2 people.

Lmao, so true. Sudbury represent!

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, I'll def have to agree with that Hart.

 

[CloneHat]

You need to play good people, and watch videos of them if you want to play against them. My playstyle against high-level players is ineffective against sub-par players. The problem is that once you get used to playing against them, your pro-level game will suffer.

And all they do is get-up attack. Seriously.

 

[Pogogo]

You need to play good people, and watch videos of them if you want to play against them. My playstyle against high-level players is ineffective against sub-par players. The problem is that once you get used to playing against them, your pro-level game will suffer.

And all they do is get-up attack. Seriously.

Why dont u teach them to tech i dun get it

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I've successfully convinced a friend of mine to play Melee. He's meh about it, because he's big on graphics, but I've got a GC modchip on the way, and then I'll just add those HQ textures in the workshop to my ISO.

Oh, for getting casuals into competitive play: Introduce them to it with textures/mods and the like if possible. In my experience, most casuals tend to love them. Enough to get into the tournament scene? Maybe. But it's worth a try.

 

[Beat!]

If he's into games because of the graphics, chances are he doesn't have the right mindset about competitive gaming.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh, I'm working on fixing his mindset. Mostly because even without WDing and L-Canceling, he's plays a pretty good Falco.

 

[CloneHat]

Oh, I'm working on fixing his mindset. Mostly because even without WDing and L-Canceling, he's plays a pretty good Falco.

Falco.

Why must it be so?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

He prefers the air, I`m afraid.

It's annoying when I'm telling him he's doing something wrong, and then he's like "but I beat you."

Well...

That's expected...

I'm Young Link

 

[Bones0]

No johns. He's winning cause he's better than you.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Nah.

I just sandbag because I'm trying to explain stuff to him mid-match.

I can't talk and play at the same time very well.

 

[Massive]

He prefers the air, I`m afraid.

It's annoying when I'm telling him he's doing something wrong, and then he's like "but I beat you."

Well...

That's expected...

I'm Young Link

Play some other characters.
There's very few instances where you don't get better in general by cross training.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I play GaW, Young Link, Ganondorf, and Mewtwo. I also mess around with Captain Falcon, but then again who doesn't.

 

[Kuro Neko]

You need to face players worse than you to develop a good offensive game. Work on controlling the pace, finishing off tech chases or combos, and applying constant pressure to create bad habits from your opponent.

You need to face players better than you to develop a good defensive game. Work on eliminating your own bad habits, taking advantage of fewer openings, and getting back control / stopping the bleeding when you're getting punished.

You need to face players at the same skill level to put everything together and polish up your game. Work on tech skill consistency, mixups for approach and recovery, and adapting to an opponent who is essentially your equal.

Nicely put.

 

[JPOBS]

Oh, I'm working on fixing his mindset. Mostly because even without WDing and L-Canceling, he's plays a pretty good Falco.

are you sure you're playing melee? :stupidfox:

 

[adumbrodeus]

are you sure you're playing melee? :stupidfox:

Obv. "relative to him" is obv.


Pair this falco against a reasonable player and he will die.

 

[Roneblaster]

the easiest way to grow the community is to no change the skin back to normal SWF after today.

New people flood in here everyday

 

[adumbrodeus]

but who will wanna stay?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh yeah, he'll lose, but he has a good understanding of how Falco's moves interact. I mean, he absolutely shocked me by knowing how to pillar once.

 

[Kaffei]

As much as I love just trolling Brawl, a part of me seriously doubts that there is any real viability of Melee recruiting players from Brawl. I can't imagine anyone who is currently playing Brawl now would change their mind about which game they favor. All the stories I've heard about people who switched are just people who got good at Brawl fairly quickly, and switched to Melee cause it's obviously more deep. At the risk of stereotyping Brawlers, I doubt they care about how deep the game they play is because anyone who did probably couldn't stand playing Brawl for more than a few months. It's painfully obvious at any competitive level above complete novice that the game promotes camping heavily, and anyone bothered enough by it to switch games will realize that on their own after seeing the trend in virtually every video where people spam projectiles and play "avoidance mindgames" for 8 minutes straight.

Brawl is simply for casual players, and recruiting casual-minded players for a game like Melee doesn't seem like an effective strategy at all. I would think it'd be much more efficient to spend our time convincing other competitive fighting game communities that Melee has much more to offer than the party-game label it's been carrying around for years. Even other competitive games like first person shooters or RTSs are valuable sources of new players, especially if you can catch their interest before they get engrained in the more traditional track of fighting games.

Idk what you are talking about. I've been playing Brawl way more than Melee (I recently picked up Melee M2K inspired me to), and I think Melee is a LOT more fun than Brawl. You are just a stupid idiot who flames Brawl because you have nothing better to do. Proof why you are an idiot: you think every brawl match is 8 minutes

 

[Strong Badam]

yeah man, you tell him! most only last 5 or 6!

 

[Kaffei]

yeah man, you tell him! most only last 5 or 6!

Think you're funny?
honestly melee *****. idk why people are wasting time bashing brawl

 

[Bones0]

Idk what you are talking about. I've been playing Brawl way more than Melee (I recently picked up Melee M2K inspired me to), and I think Melee is a LOT more fun than Brawl. You are just a stupid idiot who flames Brawl because you have nothing better to do. Proof why you are an idiot: you think every brawl match is 8 minutes

It's called hyperbole... Obviously I recognize that most Brawl matches don't last a full 8 minutes, but by saying so I get across my point that the game is SO SLOW. I think a good majority of the matches WOULD go a full 8 minutes if people actually lived by "playing to win," but most people don't enjoy the game enough playing that way to bother doing it. That being said, I just CAN'T HELP noticing how long matches are. Unlike a lot of Melee players, I actually try to check in regularly on at least a few Brawl matches from every tournament, but it just seems to be getting worse and worse.

This is the FIRST video I RANDOMLY clicked on to watch from Pound 5:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfB4fHW-lGM

First match went to ~7 minutes, and the Snake player still had 2 stocks. Second match he timed him out completely.

It's funny you think I'm an idiot for flaming Brawl when I honestly keep 99% of my trolling comments to real life discussions with people who agree, and the other 1% to the MELEE discussion board. I don't remember ever going out of my way to annoy Brawl players; I just don't go out of my way to avoid trashing (what I consider to be) a bad game.

You mention that you play Brawl way more than Melee, but you consider Melee much more fun. Does this not completely confirm everything I've said thus far about players' mindsets? That's what I find the most hilarious about Brawl is that all the players defend it, but none of them seem to enjoy playing it. It's like everyone in the community realizes the game is bad, but basically say "why are you guys so mean? just let us have our bad game!" This clinging effect to Brawl absolutely baffles me. Even as you sit here and openly admit that Melee is more fun, you still hold Brawl in a higher regard (or at least that's what your actions say by you playing Brawl more often). People can argue that they stuck with Brawl for the community, but that's just a cop out to me. I can't help but think of those people as the same ones who choose their class schedules based on what their friends are taking and choose what music to listen to based on what their friends are listening to. You'd think a few years down the road you would realize that you hate the subject you're studying and hate the music you listen to, but it never seems to dawn on anyone.

If you like Brawl, or want to pretend that you do, that's fine by me! Just keep it to the Brawl section of the site. That's really all I expect of any Brawl player. I didn't come into this topic to explain why I'm justified in loathing Brawl. I was driven to it by people calling me an idiot/troll/*** for explaining why, IN MY OPINION, Brawl players are not a good source of new Melee players. No one bothered to counter my actual point since they'd rather go on about how I need to spread the love to an inferior game that I have no interest in. **** that.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

LOL AT USING A TOON LINK VS SNAKE AS AN EXAMPLE.

2/3 of the CAMPIEST CHARACTERS IN THE GAME (the other being Samus) and you expected it to be quick?

Try watching some games where Will plays a not-Dedede, other than that one Rich Brown match where something in him decided that for once, he was going to be the one who abused the rules to win instead of having it happen to him.

Anyways, w/e, I'm done with this thread. Not because I'm fed up or anything, just because I'd rather be playing Melee.