Code Geass Mafia: OVAH

[#HBC | marshy]

vote count
blue yoshi (1) - blue yoshi
adumbrodeus (2) - frozenflame751, gheb_01
-rei- (1) - vult redux
sworddancer. (1) - -rei-
gustave (2) - summonerau, xonar
gheb_01 (2) - adumbrodeus, sephiroths masamune
vult redux (2) - overswarm, sworddancer.

not voting (4) - kevinm, dark_ermac, meta-kirby, gustave

deadline is last second of 5/23 est
with 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Could you please read up more? Vult already said it was because of something that was interpreted wrong, but he changed his mind on Frozen later.

Xonar, do you want more votes on me because of a Meta that I'm going to be useless?

You are useless already.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

You are useless already.

What a horrible base for a case, provide evidence. I think there are more useless people to be looking at right now.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

vote count
blue yoshi (1) - blue yoshi
adumbrodeus (2) - frozenflame751, gheb_01
-rei- (1) - vult redux
sworddancer. (1) - -rei-
gustave (2) - summonerau, xonar
gheb_01 (1) - adumbrodeus
vult redux (2) - overswarm, sworddancer.
gheb_01 (1) - sephiroths masamune

not voting (4) - kevinm, dark_ermac, meta-kirby, gustave

deadline is last second of 5/23 est
with 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch

You have two different ghebs.

 

[-Rei-]

this was done on notepad while i read:


okay from what i see is vr claimed some sort of masonry and voted for one of his neighbors.

post #154 gheb_01 supports a quick lynch. he shows some reasoning to why we should but i feel a quick lynch is harmful since we didn't investigate other members.

post #167 he mentions he is going to state his reasons later. sorta suspicious but i wanna see if he does.

gustave doesn't seem to add any information to the table. he is also against a quick lynch but he won't put a fos on anyone.

post #173 gheb doesn't state why he doesn't feel why vr is scummy. this shows that there is a possibility of protecting his buddy.

post #182 vr continues to be suspicious and dodges by trying to change the subject from himself and throw it unto me and adum

sephiroth masamune is continuing to investigate me. this can be considered either good for trying to get more information or drive away suspicion from a scum buddy.

adumbrodeus supports this. same reasoning as above could be applied here.

i don't see why letting vr go after he is being investigated hard means i'm letting pressure go while voting for another whom needs pressure added to speak.

i was confused about the masonry and neigborhood talk

but what i see is that vult claimed neighbors and not a masonry. he doesn't know the other ppl's alignment


my fos: sworddancer appears.



kevinm still hasn't appeared but i don't think not appearing is too scummy. well it is but i feel it is noob scum thing to do. i believe content over the amount of time spent is what is important.

post #211 frozenflame has confirmed that he is neighbors with vr but states they are not scum buddy.

i agree with frozenflame that it is the content being added is what is important and not the amount of time. since one can add fluff to make it seem they are pro-town

post #213: gheb_01 wanting a quick lynch by asking vr to jump on the bandwagon. this is pretty scummy.

post #217: overswarm speaking of gheb_01 habits and previous actions in games. i can't really comment on this seeing i'm new to dgames. i'm going to have to take his word but a person can easily change their playstyle between games. as stated i don't know much about other members, so i can't comment more than that.

post #218: i agree more activity means more information. nothing can be done if with a member if they are inactive. it is possible that they are scum. with a large amount of activity one can see where the real content comes from and who adds fluff.

post #219: wait didn't you just mention the amount of conten is what is important more than activity this early in the game?

at the moment i don't feel adumb to be scummy. he is helping by adding good reasoning.


okay next day

no other posts from sworddancer =/

what happened to gustave. no one is wondering why he hasn't added anymore content. he can be holding information or playing dumb. he could be possible scum.

oh wait he appeared.

he explains he is suspicious of vult still. why aren't you putting an fos or vote? are you pretending to be against him but protecting him?

dark_ermac appeared added nothing just bandwagoning. he didn't really answer overswarms question and just dodges it.

overswarm wonders about my final vote atm. atm i'm still waiting for sworddancer to post some content. =/ but atm i do not feel that adumb is scum and i have suspicions on gustave and vr.


post 251: i think the town should know if there are other members in the neighborhood? is there any purpose to your neighborhood?

more information about previous games and members old actions. i can't comment on this.

256: sworddancer made a post with content. not much really added. =/

post 270: vult admits that he is trying to save himself which made him state another members role. this was really scummy giving away another's role if any.


sephiroth masamune keeps putting my name out there but never gives any reasoning. at least give me something to answer.

dark_ermac isn't adding much either still

okay i feel atm that vult is still really scummy but also feel that gustave is just coasting and adding nothing. my vote on sworddancer was to get more on his stance so it continues to stay. but i have a real heavy fos on both gustave and vult.

gustave for coasting and not adding any content and being useless. gustave, who are your major fos's?

vult for admitting a role. i don't really understand what neighbors are other than being masons that don't know each others alliance. does your neighborhood have a goal?

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

He has no intention to scumhunt, that isn't only useless but also anti-town.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

sephiroth masamune is continuing to investigate me. this can be considered either good for trying to get more information or drive away suspicion from a scum buddy.

sephiroth masamune keeps putting my name out there but never gives any reasoning. at least give me something to answer.

1. I was the one who started to suspect VR and I was one of the main people questioning him.

2.You need to be present for me to ask questions.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You haven't defended yourself against any of my accusations, all you have done is prove that you have been reading. I have posted alot of information against you at the moment.

 

[Vult Redux]

post #182 vr continues to be suspicious and dodges by trying to change the subject from himself and throw it unto me and adum

My purpose here was to get Gustave to talk about something. He unvoted without committing to a new direction.

How is this suspicious in the slightest?

In fact you even agree that he's not saying much. <_< Right here:

what happened to gustave. no one is wondering why he hasn't added anymore content. he can be holding information or playing dumb. he could be possible scum.

he explains he is suspicious of vult still. why aren't you putting an fos or vote? are you pretending to be against him but protecting him?

This is still Gustave, right? Which post is this?

post 251: i think the town should know if there are other members in the neighborhood? is there any purpose to your neighborhood?

The purpose is to allow us to talk. It's not a faction with a specific win condition.

post 270: vult admits that he is trying to save himself which made him state another members role. this was really scummy giving away another's role if any.

Yeah, I did it to save myself. Mind, though, that I never gave away his role. I don't know his role -- Neighbor status is independent of role.

Unvote Rei

His posts don't give me a scum impression.

Deciding between Gustave and Adum for next vote. Want to reread more before I decide.
Please hold...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Where is the idea coming from that I want that quicklynch? I think adum should be lynched and if he was lynched right now I'd be OK with it. That doesn't mean that it's better than using D1 to its fullest though. I asked people to jump the wagon but that doesn't mean I want the quicklynch. Wagon =/= Lynch.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Where is the idea coming from that I want that quicklynch? I think adum should be lynched and if he was lynched right now I'd be OK with it. That doesn't mean that it's better than using D1 to its fullest though. I asked people to jump the wagon but that doesn't mean I want the quicklynch. Wagon =/= Lynch.

I asked you a handful of questions, I would like to hear some answers.

 

[Vult Redux]

The accusation for Gheb wanting a quicklynch is pretty silly IMO.

Then why the vote?!

Gustave's 279 has it right.

You avoided my question in #277. Please answer it!

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I asked you a handful of questions, I would like to hear some answers.

I read back and I don't see any unanswered questions.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Most of the other players either think it was either a useless or scummy move, why don't you?

Sorry let me restate, one unanswered question.

 

[Vult Redux]

Vote: Gustave

Fence-sitting. Do not like.


Though this is without thoroughly reading over the Gheb/Frozen vs. Adum walls.

I hate walls.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I answered that one already.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Vult, I have not posted any wall. I think walls of text are anti-town because they are hard to respond to. I think Overswarm, Frozen and Adum should try to cut down the size of their posts.

 

[Vult Redux]

Vult, I have not posted any wall. I think walls of text are anti-town because they are hard to respond to. I think Overswarm, Frozen and Adum should try to cut down the size of their posts.

The responses turn into walls.

I agree that they're anti-town.

Overswarm's entire playstyle makes me want to kill a baby but I don't have a particular Town or Scum read on him.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Where is the idea coming from that I want that quicklynch? I think adum should be lynched and if he was lynched right now I'd be OK with it. That doesn't mean that it's better than using D1 to its fullest though. I asked people to jump the wagon but that doesn't mean I want the quicklynch. Wagon =/= Lynch.

Fair enough, if you actually answered me in the beginning, you could've clarified that.


Now, tell me why is my strong promotion of activity, and my belief that useless and inactive players should be standing secondary targets because they're inherently anti-town... a scum-tell?

Especially since OS referenced a specific case where I espoused the philosophy as town. Obviously this doesn't mean I can't be scum, because people obviously can play both scum and town in different ways, but saying that something "is a definite scumtell" if they did the same thing playing town is... slightly ridiculous.

Vult, I have not posted any wall. I think walls of text are anti-town because they are hard to respond to. I think Overswarm, Frozen and Adum should try to cut down the size of their posts.

Mostly walls of multiquotes.


I'm trying to condense more, but when I need to comment on a few different people, I can't.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

I'm going to my dads house, so I wont be on for the rest of the night.

 

[Dark_Ermac]

why?

He looks pretty Town to me.

I didn't outright state that he was a mafia member.

Neighbors are like masons, although none of the players involved know each other's alignments. This means that it's logical that at least one neighbor may be anti-town. Assuming that there are only 2 neighbors, it would be almost guaranteed that one of them would be mafia; having two townies would miss the point of using neighbors in the first place.

Now, since there is always the possibility of more than 2 neighbors, there's also the possibility that neither Vult nor Frozen are mafia. If that's the case, said third member (or fourth, if Ronike decided to go a little overboard) would be the mafia.

If Vult and Frozen are both mafia, then that would mean that there would be no known neighbors in the game, since the whole bit with the "confirmation" would be staged. If people were crazy enough to test this, the town could kill one to confirm the neighborhood exists, or possibly puncture into the mafia. Of course, since the town is smarter than to just kill off a townie for SCIENCE!!, this leaves us with having to use traditional scumhunting.

So, for a basic overview, here's the possible scenarios:

Vult & Frozen both mafia: neighborhood faked
Vult mafia: less likely now, after rereading and finding the explanation.
Frozen mafia: Possible, frozen has been here a long time, so has had time to improve his mafia skills. If he's mafia, he's doing good enough to convince Vult at least.
Neither mafia: Potentially all-town neighborhood, potentially 3+ neighborhood with at least 1 mafia, unless the GM is sadistic enough to purposely orchestrate an implosion of an all-town neighborhood as those involved attempt to uncover their "traitor".

 

[Dark_Ermac]

In my opinion, I wouldn't want to vote either of them today unless something really bleeds through.

 

[-Rei-]

so right now i'm at a smashfest and same with tomorrow

so i can't play but still will be logged on

 

[Vult Redux]

Assuming that there are only 2 neighbors, it would be almost guaranteed that one of them would be mafia; having two townies would miss the point of using neighbors in the first place.

Never ever assume that!

I just finished hosting a game on MS.net where I had a neighborhood consisting of 2 Vanilla Townies and a Town Jailer, with a pair a Free Masons in the game also.

This is my first time playing Neighbor, but it's definitely very very wrong to make these assumptions.

I liked the rest of your post. Gives me Town vibes.

 

[Vult Redux]

so right now i'm at a smashfest and same with tomorrow

so i can't play but still will be logged on

Promise to respond to my 288 when you get back?

 

[Dark_Ermac]

Never ever assume that!

I just finished hosting a game on MS.net where I had a neighborhood consisting of 2 Vanilla Townies and a Town Jailer, with a pair a Free Masons in the game also.

This is my first time playing Neighbor, but it's definitely very very wrong to make these assumptions.

I liked the rest of your post. Gives me Town vibes.

It was a hypothetical assumption.

Normally if there's only 2 neighbors, one of them ends up as mafia/pr.

However, it's still possible that there is a mafia neighbor.

 

[Vult Redux]

That's jumping into Outguessing the Mod territory. Let's avoid that.

 

[Dark_Ermac]

Very well.

vote: KevinM

Come back and I will immediately unvote.

 

[M.K]

Alright sorry guys, my parents stopped for dinner on the way home and the service was hella slow. I'ma just throw out some key points, as I've read today at least twice now (once in class, once just now).

-Concerning the neighborhood:
Anyone suggesting that this neighborhood claim might be fake may need to consider the fact that, if it is, the only way that Frozen/Vult could have organized this is through some type of ...odd....subliminal messages. If the claim is fake, they are either A) unable to talk outside of the game or B) Able to talk outside the game, but not the roles they claim they are. Other than that, if one of the two decided to claim Neighbor, I would assume that the other would jump ship ASAP and go out of there way to deny this fact. I'm not sure many people ARE considering this possiblity, but I'd like to bring it to the forefront, as this is probably one of the most developed "aspects" of the game so far.

In Code Geass, the people live as completely distant factions of competing kingdoms. I think it's Brittania, Japan, and some other one that I can't remember, but they are definitely seperate and defined. It is ENTIRELY possible that we are dealing with multiple scum factions in the game due to the sheer vastness of actual enemies in Code Geass. I'd never place money on anything concerning flavor, but this is just something to keep in mind.

However, I'd like to point out something with Vult Redux: Have you guys noticed that, recently, his posts are starting to transform from an "Opposition Quote" to a "Support Quote"? What I mean by this is that VR, at the beginning, started quoting posts that he wanted to either challenge or defend against if allegations were made towards him. However, as recently as the post that starts with "Never ever assume that!" (post numbers aren't up here in the post window ;_, he's transitioned into a "I know, but this is the real story, but thanks for your comment :smileyfaceezz:" sort of posting style. In previous Mafia games that I've been in , this is used to indicate someone who has been pressured (lets say a value of 2 Pressures), the pressure has been dialed back just a bit (Pressure = 1.5) and the person is attempting to completely remedy their status by claiming members as "townie" or "has townie vibes" so that pressure eventually comes off. I hope this makes sense. In other words, he's catering to his audience in order to get them more on his side of the argument. Anyone who is anyone, at this point in the game, would probably enjoy someone else saying things like "oh, you're town" or "Yup, town vibes" BECAUSE we don't have any other information on D1, such as flips, investigations, or relations except for those explicitly stated.
Oh and @Vult, "let's avoid speculation" is neverrr a good way to defend yourself of a point. At this point, nothing is completely confirmed or disproved about your role, so don't halt speculation based on absurdity. There is a certain level of speculation that you yourself have invited to the table, and I'd rather see it happen that you shoo it away, claiming it as fallacy.

Frozen, on the other hand, is a typically aggressive player in my book. His ability to refute points with assertion is not atypical of Town Frozen. In fact, the games that I've been in where Frozen was scum (Scum Wars/PokeMafia), I saw a quieter, more reserved (less active?) Frozen. Also, in my experiences, Frozen is not the type of player to whim a risk (fake neighborhood) for the hell of it, or on a wild tangent. I know everyone's playstyle changes and adapts at some point, but I'm not seeing it here.

Gheb

In my experiences with Gheb in previous games, he prefers to take aim at a single or very few people and will PERPETUALLY tunnel them/ask for their lynch/ask for their quicklynch throughout days if he is allowed to live long enough. It gets to the point that, when areas of stagnation in-game occur, he brings up his "targets" once again, the targets are now in the hot seat. It's not exactly the same scenario as this game, but I do see his eagerness as normal Gheb play.

This is quickly turning into a gigantic wall. I have more to say, but I'll keep this up here for now for comments. I don't like people to read gigantic walls of text because I know how tedious it is to read giganto wallz, but here's just...a mini wall on two of the topics. (Neighborz/Gheb)

 

[SummonerAU]

Haven't looked into it much yet. Nothing jumped out at me, and Gheb was more interesting. I'm waiting until the Rei case grows a little bit before I make any opinions on it.

[quote = Summoner]Since we're asking questions OS, since you've said you don't see anything here (I'm refering to Sephiroth's #108) why do you think Sephiroth doesn't have anything? What do you believe the intent behind Rei's post and what do you think of Rei's next few post?[/quote]

Okay, it was worded pretty badly, I'll try again ;D

Since nothing has jumped out at you, why don't you think Rei's actions were suspicious? What do you believe the intent was behind Rei's posts and what do you think of his/her next few posts?

Gustave, what do you think of the statement 'Town members are more likely to ask why they are seen as scummy and scum members are more likely to ignore people's suspicions in fear of slipping'?

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

I didn't outright state that he was a mafia member.

Neighbors are like masons, although none of the players involved know each other's alignments. This means that it's logical that at least one neighbor may be anti-town. Assuming that there are only 2 neighbors, it would be almost guaranteed that one of them would be mafia; having two townies would miss the point of using neighbors in the first place.

Now, since there is always the possibility of more than 2 neighbors, there's also the possibility that neither Vult nor Frozen are mafia. If that's the case, said third member (or fourth, if Ronike decided to go a little overboard) would be the mafia.

If Vult and Frozen are both mafia, then that would mean that there would be no known neighbors in the game, since the whole bit with the "confirmation" would be staged. If people were crazy enough to test this, the town could kill one to confirm the neighborhood exists, or possibly puncture into the mafia. Of course, since the town is smarter than to just kill off a townie for SCIENCE!!, this leaves us with having to use traditional scumhunting.

So, for a basic overview, here's the possible scenarios:

Vult & Frozen both mafia: neighborhood faked
Vult mafia: less likely now, after rereading and finding the explanation.
Frozen mafia: Possible, frozen has been here a long time, so has had time to improve his mafia skills. If he's mafia, he's doing good enough to convince Vult at least.
Neither mafia: Potentially all-town neighborhood, potentially 3+ neighborhood with at least 1 mafia, unless the GM is sadistic enough to purposely orchestrate an implosion of an all-town neighborhood as those involved attempt to uncover their "traitor".

These were the exact thoughts that came through my mind when the Neighbor incident came up. I do think it's either they are both mafia and are trying to save each other. Or, one is mafia and the other isn't. (assuming there are only you two). It's very unlikely that the mod would put all town in the neighboring. I also think that by not telling us if there are other members involved in the neighboring you are keeping one of your scum buddies safe and out of this if you are scum.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

That's jumping into Outguessing the Mod territory. Let's avoid that.

Why not guess what the mod did? We are all trying to find the scum who the mod placed as scum.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Quick notes:

@ MetaKirby: I was town is pokemafia. My activity level in games is by no means derivative of my alignment. I was crazy inactive in both pokemafia (town) and scum wars (mafia). I was much more active in say, Newbie 3 (town), FF7 (mafia) and Tourny sleepover (SK). Trying to meta me based on activity is gonna fail hardcore.

Assuming that there must be people of differing alignments in neighborhoods is a terrible one. The whole point of the neighborhood is to allow people to communicate in private but never allow them to 100% trust each other by virtue of them being able to communicate. A huge benefit of being in a traditionaly closed masonry is you get to communicate privately with someone who is (usually) confirmed to be the same alignment as you. That confirmation is a HUGE advantage and makes masonries very powerful. Neighborhoods are just nerfed masonries. There is absolutely no reason why any mod MUST put players of different alignments into a neighborhood. It's simply the POSSIBILITY that someone isn't the same alignment as the others in the neighborhood that is enough to significantly nerf the role and thus maintain game balance relative to the rest of the game design.

The point is to simply provide another avenue of communication but not provide the sense of security of communication that a masonry does. Neighborhoods are not designed to create a pool of players from which one person must be anti town.

Still working on responding to OS and adum's posts along with doing some re-reading and whatnot. Very tired. Expect more stuff tomorrow.

 

[Jim Morrison]

A lot has been posted (big things) since I last was in this read. Also see a few votes. Right now I'm on my dads Mac, made a big post in another mafia game, just woke up, still a bit tired. This afternoon (CET) I get back home, I'm going to read-up on everything, make a write-up on what I see, OK?

Hoping you'll accept that without quicklynching immedeatly...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Now, tell me why is my strong promotion of activity, and my belief that useless and inactive players should be standing secondary targets because they're inherently anti-town... a scum-tell?

Especially since OS referenced a specific case where I espoused the philosophy as town. Obviously this doesn't mean I can't be scum, because people obviously can play both scum and town in different ways, but saying that something "is a definite scumtell" if they did the same thing playing town is... slightly ridiculous.

You answered a huge part of your question yourself already: Preaching activity and poking less active players ... is not hard for scum to do. It's a safe stance epsecially since inactive players can't really fight back. It's not a scum-tell but it's by no means a town-tell.

Now I wonder where I've been going after you for said reasons. Either I don't quite understand you or you're just plain wrong. I think you're scum because what I've seen of you earlier (and still now largely) is basically going after the easiest target for what I consider a null-tell.

You speak in absolutes as if you were the god in your username but you see even you are "imperfect". I'd advise you to stop speaking as if the way people play this game is a mere black and white. You cannoot simply categorize things things as "a scumtell" or a "towntell". Circumstances change. Sometimes a role has an influence on a person's playstyle. Sometimes you don't understand everybody's reasoning. Simply put: You don't differentiate nearly enough. This isn't anti-town but the way you try to impose your flawed philosophy onto everybody else and demand everyboy to follow is anti-town.

Either you stop taking everything at face value and take things with a grain of salt (aka not everything is absolute) or I'll continue to think of you as scum. It might be because you're a bit new to Forummafia so consider it advice.

 

[SummonerAU]

Gustave, why do you think people will quick lynch you? You seem to be hung up about people being lynched.

Why do you think you will be quick lynched when you're currently on 3 votes (by my count)?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Basic reading comprehension should allow you to see that, no, I did not push for a wagon, quick lynch, or anything of the sort in the section you quoted... nor have I mentioned it anywhere. I've called out those that have been viewing the thread (like meta-kirby, xonar) but not posting anything to get information flowing; they both have reasonable reasons for posting and even if they didn't, it doesn't matter. They're posting.

You made a list of people's activity and then said you would actively wagon anyone with fewer posts than the mod. I never indicted your for saying you wanted a quicklynch, but you EXPLICITLY purported the wagoning of inactive individuals. To claim that you didn't is a baldfaced lie. The whole point of my post was to call you out on pretending to scum hunt by focusing on hounding inactives, when doing so is NOT real scum hunting. It's just scapegoating and attacking easy targets for blanket reasons.

Because it's useful information for town.

It prevents outsiders from interpreting things in a way that results in anti-town actions and helps town recognize connections. The same reason you confirmed yourself to be his neighbor, kinda. Vult claiming you are his neighbor and you saying "no I'm not" would result in Vult not trusting his neighbor's actions as well as town not trusting Vult's actions. Either way, you have a connection with one or more players. Now that we know there is a connection, if either of you are scum we may be able to find out information from the other. "Information fishing" only is detrimental if it is detrimental to the town; knowing that your neighborhood has more than 2 rather than 2 isn't that detrimental now that you've announced right away that you're in a neighborhood with them.

More importantly, let's assume you are both town and you two are "buddying up" and there are two other people in your neighborhood. You all trust each other a decent amount and decide that Player X has to go, and three of you push hard on this guy and he is lynched and turns up to be town. Now that we are aware you are neighbors, we can view your actions in this light. People seemingly buddying up for no reason could be neighbors.

You say that that information is useful to the town, but you're saying that by assuming that just knowing the exact nature of our neighborhood is a priori good for the town. First of all, it isn't, and secondly, you aren't weighing how beneficial that information might be to the mafia. Even if providing some sort of information to the town (for example say, a role claim) does have some benefits to the town, those benefits can easily be outweighed by the advantages that revealing that information gives to the mafia by allowing them to make smart night choices.

That's why I'm saying we don't need to spell everything out for you right now. If the situation calls for it then you can expect us to divulge more information about the neighborhood, but there's no sense in laying it all out on the table now for little to no benefit as it stands. And that's basically what information fishing is, prying for people to reveal information for no particular reason or without good contextual standing. That's what you're doing, and it's VERY anti-town.

If I told you "Here's a guy who can change colors from red, blue, or green. He's guilty or innocent. Sometimes he's red when he's guilty, but other times he's blue. He's been green, red, or blue when innocent. Once he was green when guilty, too." you'd come to the logical, and correct, conclusion that the colors were useless precisely because the guy is deliberately changing the colors. However, if you then asked him "So... I see you're red. Why are you red?", his response to that is not necessarily useless and if he seems uncomfortable with you asking about the color red and changes to blue, or becomes indifferent and ignores you and stays red, both are important bits of information that help you determine whether he is guilty or innocent.

Right, that's fair. Recognizing that a person doing something in one game, and doing the same thing in another game should not be sufficient reasoning to indict them or claim their innocence is all I was asking for. I'm not saying you can't ask somebody why they're playing a certain way, but oftentimes that line of questioning isn't going to get you anywhere (because it could lead to divulging sensitive information, like pseudo-role claim, etc.) and oftentimes when that line of questioning is pursued, the person asking will have preconceived notions of what that person's motivation is which is inherent metagame bias, and a bad mentality to have.

Except he said more than that and this is his second game, so I highly doubt he's as much of a Chameleon as myself or, by your claims, Gheb. Looking through all his posts in the BBR he had multiple statements that are almost word-for-word the exact same and it brought about the same result as it is here. I'm interested in the responses to them, really.

Gheb answers this perfectly. Like this post is pure gold:

You answered a huge part of your question yourself already: Preaching activity and poking less active players ... is not hard for scum to do. It's a safe stance epsecially since inactive players can't really fight back. It's not a scum-tell but it's by no means a town-tell.

Now I wonder where I've been going after you for said reasons. Either I don't quite understand you or you're just plain wrong. I think you're scum because what I've seen of you earlier (and still now largely) is basically going after the easiest target for what I consider a null-tell.

You speak in absolutes as if you were the god in your username but you see even you are "imperfect". I'd advise you to stop speaking as if the way people play this game is a mere black and white. You cannoot simply categorize things things as "a scumtell" or a "towntell". Circumstances change. Sometimes a role has an influence on a person's playstyle. Sometimes you don't understand everybody's reasoning. Simply put: You don't differentiate nearly enough. This isn't anti-town but the way you try to impose your flawed philosophy onto everybody else and demand everyboy to follow is anti-town.

Either you stop taking everything at face value and take things with a grain of salt (aka not everything is absolute) or I'll continue to think of you as scum. It might be because you're a bit new to Forummafia so consider it advice.

Scum will very often take "easy" protown stances. Thus, arguing for something generally accepted as protown, or saying basic stuff that they may have verbatim purported in another game as town does NOT mean they are any less likely to be scum. It should be value neutral. Trying to convince people that doing stuff like that is actually protown is actually SCUMMY because you're trying to misrepresent the value of an action by ignoring the relevant possibilities Gheb and I have discussed.

You seem to be missing a fundamental point, town CANNOT win without activity period, therefore activity is inherently town because it gives the town a chance to win by picking up on scum tells.

No, town won't pick up on every one, but we make it more likely by picking off useless players (who are also more likely to be scum).

Speaking of useless players, I'm not gonna say that they're gonna drop the ball every time, statistically they gotta win a blind pick every so often but, they're far more likely to then somebody who is playing intelligently.

You're tunneling by taking actions that are at face strongly pro-town but could be a guise opted by scum in order to survive and force poor lynches, and interpreting it in the most scum way possible with no evidence of scummyness.

Even the initial action, it was me supporting activity which the thread needs for town to win, and I back off when he explained it in a way that satisfied me (pressure successful), where's the evidence that it's actually scummy?

That's what tunneling is, having tunnel-vision, fixating on a person as a particular role, and then interpreting everything in relation to that conclusion rather then examining evidence as it actually is.

At least gheb is trying to make a case, you're just tossing **** against a wall to see what sticks.

Yes the town needs activity to win. The town needs to lynch to win to. Does that make lynching inherently pro town? No! These things are GENERALLY protown, but they have blatant susceptibilities. They are not inherently of protown value but they ARE important to gameplay. How can you not see the difference?

As far as "useless" players in endgame goes, you're banking WAY too much on probability (treating probability like its an absolute which is just fundamentally contradictory), when the context of the game is far more relevant when it comes to making decision like who should go to lylo.

I'm not saying your actions have been generally scummy. What I AM saying is that you've been trying to build up your actions as MORE PRO TOWN THAN THEY REALLY ARE (when actually most of them are pretty value neutral) which IS SCUMMY. Trying to squeeze every townie point you can out of pretty value neutral statements and actions is scummy because it is manipulative and deceitful. Thus scummy.

That's the key difference you're missing here. Most of what you have said isn't particularly scummy STANCE wise. What IS scummy is the fact that you've gone to great lengths to try and make it seem like your stance is the most protown thing ever, when it is far from it. Gheb's most recent post that I quoted earlier pretty much perfectly explains everything I've been trying to say and really clarifies what I think is our shared stance on this matter.

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Still working on Rei and some other reads I'm trying to develop.

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Still working on Rei and some other reads I'm trying to develop.

Who exactly are your other reads?

 

[KevinM]

Whoa nelly i got a lot to read.

Sorry guys I had work the last three days , didn't mean to ignore y'all.

 

[KevinM]

Very well.

vote: KevinM

Come back and I will immediately unvote.

I should vote you for not immediately unvoting. You didn't keep your promise .

Anyways to keep it brief, the things that have stuck out at me.

Numero Uno: Not really liking Sword Dancer right now, his metagaming on OS's time to confirm is stupid and unnecessary. Stuff like that to me is either pseudo scumhunting, or useless town and lord knows I hate either of them.

Numero Two: Adum: He continues to move back and forth between town and scum to me, right now I wouldn't push a lynch on him because I'm not entirely sure he's anti-town nor does he lean tooo heavily towards that sign right now. I didn't like however how he tried to flip things around on Gheb just because of his eagerness to lynch on D1, it's D1 a lynch has to happen eventually and Gheb shares my sentiment that if a lynch is pertinent that it should just happen. No dilly dallying and letting people make stupid mistakes like oh I don't know....

Numero Three: Neighbor Claiming, Seriously redux? What were you thinking why give away pertinent information without imminent threat? Were you looking to paint a target on both yours and frozens back? I would assume that there is more to your role and in which case KEEP IT QUIET. The whole never keeping secrets thing is fine, but in a game where information helps both sides it is sometimes best to keep things to yourself.

Numero Four: Frozen vs Over, and Frozen vs Adum: I appreciate all the points you guys are going into and it makes for a good way to figure out your stances, however at this point I kinda feel like you've made your points one to many times. It is starting to water down the original analysis of each other and I feel the more PbPA's you guys go into the more its just weakening the overall argument. You realize half the time I make my case on someone, I let them make a defense and from there I just stop responding, reason being I'm not trying to dissect and twist each of their individual responses, but show why I was suspicious of the person in the first place. By continuing your discussion in such a manner it raises some suspicions in my head that you would be trying to distance yourself while merely watering down the arguments so that they get lost in the shuffle of D1. Dislike on facebook homies.

Numero Fizzive: Overswarm, While I appreciate the activity policing and gung-ho policies you're taking on D1, I wouldn't neccesarily clear people just based off the fact you know they are good players as well as telling people to give me an exception. I'm not a huge fan of buddying in this game no matter how slight only because it can cloud your judgement in things, and you seem as if you are ready to gravitate towards the players you feel will be more helpful in endgame. Granted this is what I do as well but please don't become attached to their ideals, more so keep them around because the more they play the more they reveal inconsistencies based on their post content. Where as with players whom don't post as much or stay more concise will not be able to give you any information.


That's really all I have to say for now, if I had to slap down a vote which of course I will be doing. It would be on Soward Dacner

Vote SwordDancer

 

[Sephiroths Masamune]

Love to see your active, other than sword dancers Meta, what reason do you have for voting for him? I also see that you've failed to mention Rei in any of your post, what are your views on him?