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Coaching

Should coaching


  • Total voters
    117
  • Poll closed .

Limeee

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things like general advice, such as play more patiently, plank this transformation are fair

telling the person where snakes C4/landmine/grenades i guess etc. is not fair

i'm kind of undecided here
 

Purple

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Eh, I don't think coaching everything down to the wire is even effective imo.

no arguement is pointless, it's to discuss and try to get the most information about both POVs as possible :).

It can be banned actually, everyone would have to be away a certain distance.
 

Miamisportsfan45

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Eh, I don't think coaching everything down to the wire is even effective imo.

no arguement is pointless, it's to discuss and try to get the most information about both POVs as possible :).

It can be banned actually, everyone would have to be away a certain distance.
Exactly, and as for this being an "argument" it's only a "discussion" and "debate" topic. For the reason you just stated. For us to see the better opportunity and everyone's views of things.
 

Miamisportsfan45

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I think coaching should only be allowed in between matches. :)
I'm still a bit unsure as to even this, but as of right now, without any discussion on this, I have to agree with you. Whenever you're not in a set at all of course coaching is fine. During a set, I'm a little wobbly on. During a match. Not at all.
 

J03

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if someones catching you with dumb **** then coaching is unfair but at top level that doesnt happen anyway...

at top level useful coaching (prolonged advice) seems more distracting then useful =/ throwing you off your groooove, therefore the only useful advice is short and snappy, which is probably not very useful at all haha (unless its **** like "AMSAH EXECUTE ATTACK PATTERN DELTA") other then that advice clearly limits your game rather then improves it.

There's no need for evidence on this one lads, just common sense. speaking of which... if its impossible to ban and impossible to solve isnt it completely pointless to discuss?

how about switching the focus to the volume of advice... no whispering, then the advice is heard by both so no real advantage is gained.

obv only reffering to advice during matches as i dont see a problem with advice inbetween matches as its an accepted part of most games/sports.

tbh it sounds like a certain sports fan from miami hates it when they lose because their opponents got some advice... mix your game up maybe?

edit: theres over 360 posts on this tiny debate, just how useful is arguing online?
 

Miamisportsfan45

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if someones catching you with dumb **** then coaching is unfair but at top level that doesnt happen anyway...

at top level useful coaching (prolonged advice) seems more distracting then useful =/ throwing you off your groooove, therefore the only useful advice is short and snappy, which is probably not very useful at all haha (unless its **** like "AMSAH EXECUTE ATTACK PATTERN DELTA") other then that advice clearly limits your game rather then improves it.

There's no need for evidence on this one lads, just common sense. speaking of which... if its impossible to ban and impossible to solve isnt it completely pointless to discuss?

how about switching the focus to the volume of advice... no whispering, then the advice is heard by both so no real advantage is gained.

obv only reffering to advice during matches as i dont see a problem with advice inbetween matches as its an accepted part of most games/sports.

tbh it sounds like a certain sports fan from miami hates it when they lose because their opponents got some advice... mix your game up maybe?

edit: theres over 360 posts on this tiny debate, just how useful is arguing online?
It's not so much that it's a huge argument. I see it as a huge discussion rather to understand both sides, and now that you've said this I'm beginning to see why you would think that coaching would be okay. Most of the good players are modest anyway. But what about those good players that are arrogant, cocky, or just disturbed by seeing a good friend of theirs get the sh*t beat out of them? Then they start helping to coach along. I think I see your argument pretty useful here, but I don't want to counter argue or just create an entire argument based on what if's and probability. My opinion is made up of one player having an advantage and handicap over another, and by the fact that it could impact the decisions that each player makes, therefor affecting the outcome of the match and even the set in the long run.
 

Nihonjin

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if someones catching you with dumb **** then coaching is unfair but at top level that doesnt happen anyway...

at top level useful coaching (prolonged advice) seems more distracting then useful =/ throwing you off your groooove, therefore the only useful advice is short and snappy, which is probably not very useful at all haha (unless its **** like "AMSAH EXECUTE ATTACK PATTERN DELTA") other then that advice clearly limits your game rather then improves it.
I don't understand why everyone for coaching seems to think it doesn't help top players.. Nobody's omniscient, so everybody can be coached and benefit from it regardless of their level.

I'm not going to pull out the same example I did 2 pages ago, on how coaching could've made a huge impact on one of my sets, so do a little digging if you want to find it.

how about switching the focus to the volume of advice... no whispering, then the advice is heard by both so no real advantage is gained.
Except if I'm being coached in Dutch, Surinamese, or Japanese and my opponent in English.

obv only reffering to advice during matches as i dont see a problem with advice inbetween matches as its an accepted part of most games/sports.
What other sports/games do or don't do is irrelevant in this debate. You can use them as an example to support your argument, but not as your actual argument.

tbh it sounds like a certain sports fan from miami hates it when they lose because their opponents got some advice... mix your game up maybe?
/Facepalm

edit: theres over 360 posts on this tiny debate, just how useful is arguing online?
It's because new people like you keep coming in making the exact same arguments we utterly crushed a couple of pages ago.
 

Miamisportsfan45

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All that aside, calling me out for discusssion based on a team that I like and has a bad reputation in some sports is unnecessary and irrelevent to this topic. xD
 

Purple

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True I guess, maaaan I really feel like discussing more but walls of posts get tiring to make :?

I'M NOT DONE HERE >: (
 

Nihonjin

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I found a pretty interesting blog (or whatever it was) on why coaching shouldn't be allowed in Tennis. I thought I'd share it with you all because I think it applies to (nearly) any 1 on 1 game including Smash.

In fact, the ATP Tour, one of the game's three governing bodies, has decided to allow a limited amount of tennis on-court coaching, on a trial basis only, at some major professional events on the men's tour this year*. [/I]

This is an appalling development. One of the greatest appeals of tennis is that it demands from players the ability to think quickly when under pressure. Relying on someone else to do that thinking flies right in the face of what an individual sport demands, or should demand, from every player.

Tennis on-court coaching strikes at the heart of what tennis is all about. While it may be a very popular idea with coaches, as it presents all sorts of profile-lifting opportunities for them, I cannot imagine any intelligent player supporting a move like tennis on-court coaching that negates, to any extent whatsoever, a superior ability to out-think an opponent.

That is exactly the point -- the beauty of the game is that you are completely alone out on court, facing a player who is equally alone (which is why it is called "singles").

In order to preserve the appeal that tennis has to independent thinkers and to the very integrity of the game, that aspect of the game should remain sacrosanct.

Of course, in a team situation such as Davis Cup, it is absolutely appropriate to have input from a coach or captain who is every bit a part of the team as the players . But it is absolutely inappropriate to allow tennis on-court coaching during individual tournament play.

After the three month trial period, I sincerely hope the ATP Tour decides against continuing something that never should have been allowed in the first place.

Chris Lewis (16 May, 1998)

[edit]

* After the three month trial period, during which players were almost united in their disapproval of tennis on-court coaching, the ATP Tour wisely scrapped the idea.
Thoughts..?
 

Smasher89

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Practical in tennis due to their large room for players and clear limits when it comes to the lines of the field.

Impractical in smash due to "small" venues and alot of people filled in them, would need bigger venues for that (or fewer players playing at all time, which is just a bad idea) for it to work practicly at all.
 

X1-12

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Practical in tennis due to their large room for players and clear limits when it comes to the lines of the field.

Impractical in smash due to "small" venues and alot of people filled in them, would need bigger venues for that (or fewer players playing at all time, which is just a bad idea) for it to work practicly at all.
Have you accepted that coaching should be banned, but you think its impractical?
 

Nihonjin

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Practical in tennis due to their large room for players and clear limits when it comes to the lines of the field.

Impractical in smash due to "small" venues and alot of people filled in them, would need bigger venues for that (or fewer players playing at all time, which is just a bad idea) for it to work practicly at all.
Players can still communicate with their coaches through hand signs, they're simply not allowed to. But because some of them might try to anyway, maybe they should lift the ban entirely because it's impossible to enforce, right? Wrong.

It'll work the exact same way in smash as it does in Tennis. You ban it and because people naturally abide by the law they won't do it. And the couple that do try to break the rules get punished for it.
 

Smasher89

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Have you accepted that coaching should be banned, but you think its impractical?
Nope, not at all, still up for coaching. Helps bad players to get better, and the better players don't even asks for a coach since they are convinced that they´ll win anyway, and also suceeds in winning.

But I would like to see how you get an alternative(kind of ruleset) that definitly would work without misunderstandings(dont remember the word of "everyones got their own oppinion in how to read the rule") and stuff like that. Making progress in the discussion.


Yea, but it will definitly be more unfair if players coach, not getting punished for it(or can't since theres no proof/), where the other player doesnt get coached, and by no means even try. Therefore gets the opponent "cheating" without being able to do anything by themself against it unless noticing it, which would be hard to get punished since theres no judges in smash more then the winning screen.
 

strawhats

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Players can still communicate with their coaches through hand signs, they're simply not allowed to. But because some of them might try to anyway, maybe they should lift the ban entirely because it's impossible to enforce, right? Wrong.

It'll work the exact same way in smash as it does in Tennis. You ban it and because people naturally abide by the law they won't do it. And the couple that do try to break the rules get punished for it.
that aint Naruto :embarrass
 

Nihonjin

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@Strawhats

Sign language.. :embarrass

Nope, not at all, still up for coaching. Helps bad players to get better, and the better players don't even asks for a coach since they are convinced that they´ll win anyway, and also suceeds in winning.
Read the above article.

Also, you're ignoring the fact that some of the 'better players' have already asked for and been coached.

But I would like to see how you get an alternative(kind of ruleset) that definitly would work without misunderstandings(dont remember the word of "everyones got their own oppinion in how to read the rule") and stuff like that. Making progress in the discussion.
There will always be misunderstandings and people who break the rule. That's not an argument against the rule itself.

Also, it's kind of hard to misinterpret this.

Tennis rule said:
Coaching is considered to be communication, advice or instruction of any kind,
audible or visible, to a player.
It doesn't get more clearly defined than that and (before you even dare to bring it up ) doesn't have anything to do with cheering.

Yea, but it will definitly be more unfair if players coach, not getting punished for it(or can't since theres no proof/), where the other player doesnt get coached, and by no means even try. Therefore gets the opponent "cheating" without being able to do anything by themself against it unless noticing it, which would be hard to get punished since theres no judges in smash more then the winning screen.
Coaching isn't something that happens a lot, if we make it illegal, it will happen even less. But in the case that you notice someone is coaching, you pause the game and tell them to stop or simply call a TO to handle it. It's not that hard.
 

X1-12

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@Smasher:

Anticipating the fact your response to Amsah is going to include the fact that the crowd can shout things like "Take the Ledge!" or other things where its hard to distinguish between cheering and coaching well its not, and here's why:

If there is lots of cheering at a match, its likely it will be one of the later matches in a bracket (less people playing = more people watching) and means the TO will actually be more able to enforce the rules. If people shout advice, the TO can tell them not to and then punish them accordingly if they do.. If its hard to tell who is doing it, the TO only has to punish one person and the rest will shut up (think when your teacher gets angry at one pupil the whole class goes silent)
 

Purple

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Well, for one, smash has many variable that are non-existent in tennis.

  • Tennis only has one type of opponent, one type of weapon, and one type of surface (per set that is). Which means, in tennis, you literally are playing someone who's just like you. It's an even ground there, there are no neutrals, cps, or character mus, only skill. Therefore when you have a coach, it will make the match unfair; guaranteed. In smash, some people just don't know a MU well, or don't like playing a certain stage and will need help for the stage. That doesn't make it unfair, hell, it's already unfair to have to be on that stage or playing that MU in the first place, it's pushing the balance back to even.
  • Crowds are generally speaking, far away when it comes to tennis, this is no where near the case in smash.

Are you serious? Do you really think a TO can tell 50 people to stop giving advice (granted I'm using a huge number but that number is surely possible). The idea is ridiculous. Regardless of how powerful the TO may feel, the TO is still just once person. I can see a person being given a coach inbetween matches, because even if I told a person their opponents play style, it can only be implemented by being skillful.
 

Nihonjin

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Well, for one, smash has many variable that are non-existent in tennis.

  • Tennis only has one type of opponent, one type of weapon, and one type of surface (per set that is). Which means, in tennis, you literally are playing someone who's just like you. It's an even ground there, there are no neutrals, cps, or character mus, only skill. Therefore when you have a coach, it will make the match unfair; guaranteed. In smash, some people just don't know a MU well, or don't like playing a certain stage and will need help for the stage. That doesn't make it unfair, hell, it's already unfair to have to be on that stage or playing that MU in the first place, it's pushing the balance back to even.]


  • Completely irrelevant. Read quote bellow.

    One of the greatest appeals of tennis is that it demands from players the ability to think quickly when under pressure. Relying on someone else to do that thinking flies right in the face of what an individual sport demands, or should demand, from every player.


    [*]Crowds are generally speaking, far away when it comes to tennis, this is no where near the case in smash.
Also completely irrelevant.

Are you serious? Do you really think a TO can tell 50 people to stop giving advice (granted I'm using a huge number but that number is surely possible). The idea is ridiculous. Regardless of how powerful the TO may feel, the TO is still just once person.
Are you serious? Do you really think a TO can tell 50 people to stop fighting (granted I'm using a huge number but that number is surely possible). The idea is ridiculous. Regardless of how powerful the TO may feel, the TO is still just once person.

Yet, we have rules against fighting.

I can see a person being given a coach inbetween matches, because even if I told a person their opponents play style, it can only be implemented by being skillful.
Read quote below.

I cannot imagine any intelligent player supporting a move like tennis on-court coaching that negates, to any extent whatsoever, a superior ability to out-think an opponent.
 

X1-12

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Well, for one, smash has many variable that are non-existent in tennis.

  • Tennis only has one type of opponent, one type of weapon, and one type of surface (per set that is). Which means, in tennis, you literally are playing someone who's just like you. It's an even ground there, there are no neutrals, cps, or character mus, only skill. Therefore when you have a coach, it will make the match unfair; guaranteed. In smash, some people just don't know a MU well, or don't like playing a certain stage and will need help for the stage. That doesn't make it unfair, hell, it's already unfair to have to be on that stage or playing that MU in the first place, it's pushing the balance back to even.
All the things you listed there: [knowledge of] Stages, CPs Match-ups is part of a players skill, a coach is not. More importantly, what has this got to do with anything? tennis and smash are different but what the hell has this got to do with the point in Nihonjin's point that matches should be solely player vs player?

Are you serious? Do you really think a TO can tell 50 people to stop giving advice (granted I'm using a huge number but that number is surely possible). The idea is ridiculous. Regardless of how powerful the TO may feel, the TO is still just once person. I can see a person being given a coach inbetween matches, because even if I told a person their opponents play style, it can only be implemented by being skillful.
I don't know if its because you read it before I edited my post but read the
last sentence


ow would telling someone a good counterpick be considered out-thinking?
Its adding their skill to yours.
 

Nihonjin

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How would telling someone a good counterpick be considered out-thinking?
It's not. But deciding what stage & character to (or not to) counter pick is a strategic decision players are forced to make after losing a match.

One of the greatest appeals of tennis is that it demands from players the ability to think quickly when under pressure. Relying on someone else to do that thinking flies right in the face of what an individual sport demands, or should demand, from every player.
Honestly, that article answers pretty much anything you can possibly come up with.
 

Alphicans

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It's not, but it's giving him an option he might not have thought about in the first place. Counter-picks are a big part of smash, knowing what works well is a skill.

EDIT: Knowing how to play a mu, and knowing how to play on a stage is also a skill... Not knowing how to do either of those is not an excuse lol.
 

Pierce7d

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coaching gives an unfair advantage, so I am against it

but I don't think you can really ban it, and I don't really care too strongly either way
lmao, you're so full of **** Jason :p <3

Eh, I think both sides have good points, though I definitely don't find either side to have flawless arguments. I'll say that both sides have provoked lots of thought, and I'm not really pro-coaching or anti-coaching at the moment.
 

john!

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i still haven't seen a good suggestion from the pro-ban side for how to actually enforce a ban like this.

back when i played varsity tennis, i'm pretty sure mid-point coaching was banned, but every so often i would face an opponent whose fellow players or parents would shout things to him in spanish or hindi or whatever during a point. nobody ever called them out on it because they couldn't prove it was coaching. the article makes good points against coaching in principle, but in practice it's a whole different story.

tl;dr what m2k said
 

da K.I.D.

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@ roxy
stop.using.horrible.examples.to.prove.your.points

To anyone that brought up the "how can you enforce a coaching ban?" point.

take a look at the last tournament that i ran.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=264385

near the bottom of the OP is a rule against coaching. There are a few people in my region that are notorious for coaching. Something that affects me greatly because I can spend 3 out of the 4 of my opponents stocks (or 2 out of 3 in brawl) conditioning him a certain way in order to land a kill move at the end, but the coach can see this much more clearly than the player in the moment. and when the coach informs my opponent of what im been trying to get him to do for the entire match. It can be game and match altering. This is not fair, and thus I put in a rule to keep it from happening.

the people that were notorious for it were given one warning apiece at that event. and they knew that further offences would result in either a loss of games or sets for them and the players they were coaching and possible ejection from the venue.

Its called TOs discretion. There are definitely ways to enforce this. You dont need a concrete system on whats allowable and whats not. If the TO sees something they deem to be unfair, they can issue consequences, end of story.
 

da K.I.D.

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I said the same thing to myself about half of your posts in this thread.

But that was because you basically been eloquently repeating the same things youve already said since like page 10, as opposed to actually saying something thats as basic as my last post.
 
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