Coaching

[X1-12]

Why would you continue ledge camping if you already know what the best option is and you see Jman do it?

Hence why i'm asking you about mid-match coaching.

Doing it mid-match, zgetto can't entirely expect you to ledge-camp, and when you started, he still wouldn't be able to tell Jman.

Also, why would Zgetto, who is part of your region, coach against you for the US? Do you really think he would? No one in the US told him calmly how to get past it, because none of them really knew. If Zgetto was coaching you, you wouldn't have had that problem anyways.

Good **** using the worst case scenario to prove your point though.

Jman would've had to choose a coach in the beginning of the tournament, considering you're both in different regions, he probably wouldn't have chose zgetto anyways. On top of that, zgetto probably would've declined.

None of this really matters (its also quite hard to understand), the fact is if a coach can benefit one person more than another then that is unfair..

 

[Miamisportsfan45]

Why would you continue ledge camping if you already know what the best option is and you see Jman do it?

Hence why i'm asking you about mid-match coaching.

Doing it mid-match, zgetto can't entirely expect you to ledge-camp, and when you started, he still wouldn't be able to tell Jman.

Also, why would Zgetto, who is part of your region, coach against you for the US? Do you really think he would? No one in the US told him calmly how to get past it, because none of them really knew. If Zgetto was coaching you, you wouldn't have had that problem anyways.

Good **** using the worst case scenario to prove your point though.

Jman would've had to choose a coach in the beginning of the tournament, considering you're both in different regions, he probably wouldn't have chose zgetto anyways. On top of that, zgetto probably would've declined.

I think you just completely missed the point. How is this relevent to your argument?

 

[Nihonjin]

Why would you continue ledge camping if you already know what the best option is and you see Jman do it?

I wouldn't, I would be forced to fight him normally, which would put me at a horrible disadvantage because then he would camp me.

Hence why i'm asking you about mid-match coaching.

Doing it mid-match, zgetto can't entirely expect you to ledge-camp, and when you started, he still wouldn't be able to tell Jman.

He doesn't need to expect anything, it's happening right in front of him so all he needs to do is point it out when he sees it.

I was clearly not planning to get off the edge and Jman was running around for almost a minute before getting killed. Anywhere in that time Zgetto could've told Jman not to approach the edge and listen to what he had to say. With 4 minutes left on the clock, that's exactly the amount of time Zgetto had to explain Jman how to beat my strategy. It wouldn't take him more than 10 seconds though, 30 at most if he explained it in detail.

Also, why would Zgetto, who is part of your region, coach against you for the US? Do you really think he would?

This is irrelevant, it's a hypothetical situation.

No one in the US told him calmly how to get past it, because none of them really knew.

It's not about what his friends or fellow Americans know, it's about what Jman knows. I was fighting him and him alone.

Jman would've had to choose a coach in the beginning of the tournament, considering you're both in different regions he probably wouldn't have chose zgetto anyways. On top of that, zgetto probably would've declined.

This is irrelevant to my argument. Which is that third parties shouldn't be allowed to influence a match like that.

 

[TheZhuKeeper]

Why would you continue ledge camping if you already know what the best option is and you see Jman do it?

Hence why i'm asking you about mid-match coaching.

Doing it mid-match, zgetto can't entirely expect you to ledge-camp, and when you started, he still wouldn't be able to tell Jman.

Also, why would Zgetto, who is part of your region, coach against you for the US? Do you really think he would? No one in the US told him calmly how to get past it, because none of them really knew. If Zgetto was coaching you, you wouldn't have had that problem anyways.

Good **** using the worst case scenario to prove your point though.

Jman would've had to choose a coach in the beginning of the tournament, considering you're both in different regions, he probably wouldn't have chose zgetto anyways. On top of that, zgetto probably would've declined.

Wow that was sad. The point wasn't that it was Zgetto, Amsah was just using him as an example. What if I knew how to get around prolonged ledge stalling (because I think I have an idea of what Amsah is talking about) and I happened to be his coach? Same thing applies, Amsah would have "lost" to me instead of Jman.

But I guess even though I'm from the US, I'm Chinese and Canadian so Jman wouldn't have picked me and I would've declined cause he's I'm jealous of his Fox >(

 

[Purple]

That's true zhu, I take back my statement then.

However I will say one thing that your statement is relying on, the idea that one person has a coach and the other does not. Like I said before, in that scenario it is unfair, it's giving one person something the other doesn't have, however what if both players have coaches? The information by that knowledge is even.

 

[X1-12]

@Roxy: Amsah and I talked about this ages ago, It wouldn't be fair unless both coaches were totally equal skill (never gonna happen)

If I have the best coaches in the world as my friends and they're willing to coach me, while your only available coach is my grandmother, that puts you at an extreme disadvantage before the match even starts, and there's nothing you can do about it.

 

[Purple]

It wouldn't be fair unless both characters are of even match-ups. I mean, If I use fox and you use pichu, that matchup sucks before you even start and there's nothing you can do about it.

So what?

You outplay them :\ advantage or not.

 

[X1-12]

It wouldn't be fair unless both characters are of even match-ups. I mean, If I use fox and you use pichu, that matchup sucks before you even start and there's nothing you can do about it.

So what?

You outplay them :\ advantage or not.

No. Just try to understand this simple concept:


If you play Pichu, you are at a disadvantage, but its your choice to play pichu. you can do something about it

if your only coach willing to coach you is your grandmother, you are at a disadvantage BUT its NOT your choice, there's nothing you can do about it: thus its unfair

 

[Purple]

what makes your grandmother a worse coach than m2k?

:|

 

[X1-12]

what makes your grandmother a worse coach than m2k?

:|

well, there's the fact she's never heard of smash bros, or a gamecube.. and if you showed them her, she'd forget about it in about 20 minutes.. and that even if she was sitting next to the players she wouldn't be able to see the screen, or hear whats going on.. Even if she did I don't think she'd understand what was happening..


now stop trolling

 

[Purple]

So, that's like say, if I brought my father to coach me. That means he's bad. What if he's played brawl competitively just as much as I? And since he's seen me improve for the years i've played, and knows EXACTLY how i'd play. So he knows exactly how to stop me from doing things wrong. Grandmothers aren't always old, many are 40 (in fact, if i was to have a kid, my kid's grandmother would be 40, but that's off the subject).

Fact is, having a coach doesn't always go by skill.

That's like saying if PP was to team with Jman he would do better than if he was to team with l0zr, who he's teamed with for years.

 

[X1-12]

So, that's like say, if I brought my father to coach me. That means he's bad. What if he's played brawl competitively just as much as I? And since he's seen me improve for the years i've played, and knows EXACTLY how i'd play. So he knows exactly how to stop me from doing things wrong. Grandmothers aren't always old, many are 40 (in fact, if i was to have a kid, my kid's grandmother would be 40, but that's off the subject).

Fact is, having a coach doesn't always go by skill.

That's like saying if PP was to team with Jman he would do better than if he was to team with l0zr, who he's teamed with for years.

No, The point is one is still going to be better at coaching than the other, which the player can't control, thus its unfair

 

[Smasher89]

Explain how exacly the coaches differs in "skillevel" of coaching (no extreeme argument, since, and how it allways would have an impact during a set where two even players would face each other.

As I see it, both players gets helped with improving, how the skillevel on the coach matters more then when the coach is better or at the same level as you I´ve yet too see the difference it makes in a set, and that with 60+ tournaments where coaching hasnt been banned.


EDIT: ingame, even controllerports arent equal. Crowds helps players play better, sitting from a better angle in front of the tv can help etc etc, nothing is fair.

 

[Nihonjin]

So, that's like say, if I brought my father to coach me. That means he's bad. What if he's played brawl competitively just as much as I? And since he's seen me improve for the years i've played, and knows EXACTLY how i'd play. So he knows exactly how to stop me from doing things wrong. Grandmothers aren't always old, many are 40 (in fact, if i was to have a kid, my kid's grandmother would be 40, but that's off the subject).

Fact is, having a coach doesn't always go by skill.

That's like saying if PP was to team with Jman he would do better than if he was to team with l0zr, who he's teamed with for years.

This is entirely irrelevant. The point is that people are not equal, thus coaches are not equal so even with two coaches, one player gains an advantage over the other without having to do anything at all.

This is not fair, this is not balanced. It's such a simple and clear concept I don't even understand why we're arguing.

Explain how exacly the coaches differs in "skillevel" of coaching (no extreeme argument, since, and how it allways would have an impact during a set where two even players would face each other.

Extremes are always the best examples.

Also, it's not about whether it will always have an impact or not. The fact that it can have an impact and possibly even a game winning impact like in my example on the previous page, makes it unfair.

As I see it, both players gets helped with improving, how the skillevel on the coach matters more then when the coach is better or at the same level as you I´ve yet too see the difference it makes in a set, and that with 60+ tournaments where coaching hasnt been banned.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Roxy on the last page.

I'll pull out the same example I used a while ago. Have you seen my Pound 4 match against Jman?

Here

From the moment I started ledge camping, Jman was absolutely clueless on how to approach me or get me to leave the edge. He was dancing around shooting lasers until the moment he decided to just go for it and then I killed him immediately.

Here comes the fun part, Zgetto knows exactly how to handle a Sheik ledge camping, Adam and I have both done this to him so many times, he found ways around it. It's not something technically advanced, it's just positioning himself at a certain part on stage and I won't be able to camp anymore without the risk of losing my stock.

If Zgetto decided, he you know what, I don't like Amsah, I want Jman to win, he could have calmly explained to Jman where to stand and what to do (it's not hard at all, but come up with this strategy takes a little creativity). If Jman then simply followed Zgetto's instructions, I would not have been able to continue my strategy and possibly would have lost.

In my opinion, if Jman won the match after that, I didn't lose to him, but to Zgetto, because without Zgetto he wouldn't have been able to keep me from camping and as we've seen in our actual match, he eventually died trying.

Now, my question to you is, how would you justify something like that?

Well, how would you..?

 

[Purple]

Two players are not equal in skill. Even if they both have coaches, the two players will still not be equal, and the more skilled will win. As much as you want to say that it's not fair and that the lesser skilled player will possibly win, why do you think so many people have johns about certain cp stages or being cp'd a certain character? Saying

"man, I'm so much more skilled than him, but he used so and so character and so and so stage, so dumb"

 

[ruin`]

detrimental.

gragas is a detrimental tank

 

[Nihonjin]

Two players are not equal in skill. Even if they both have coaches, the two players will still not be equal, and the more skilled will win.

Alright, I'll put it in simple math for you.

Imagine this:

*The digits represent their skill level*

Player A is a 7, his coach is a 3.
Player B is a 6, his coach is a 6

7 + 3 = 10, so they average at 5
6 + 6 = 12. so they average at 6

Player B, even though he's at a disadvantage on his own, now has the upper hand because his Coach is better than that of Player A.

Assuming the more skilled always win, Player B would beat player A even though he's worse and would lose under normally circumstances and his coach is directly responsible for it.

As much as you want to say that it's not fair and that the lesser skilled player will possibly win, why do you think so many people have johns about certain cp stages or being cp'd a certain character? Saying

"man, I'm so much more skilled than him, but he used so and so character and so and so stage, so dumb"

Bad excuses are bad.

The very first stage is neutral, if you're better you should win that.
They counter pick some stage your bad on, you lose.
Then you counter pick another neutral and you beat them on it.

So it's impossible to lose just because of a counter pick.

 

[strawhats]

reading this thread makes my eyes hurt lol...you really like this thread don't you amsah.

 

[Nihonjin]

I like debating, I'm a patient person, I'm extremely bored and find it funny people don't understand simple concepts..lol

This is my favorite thread of the year..:embarrass

 

[Purple]

well Nihonjin, why don't we just like a one match set on a neutral? That would make you more skilled if you win correct?

 

[Nihonjin]

Best of one's are boring and when two people are close in skill it doesn't always tell the whole story. So we play best of 3/5/7 for more accurate results.

How does asking me this help your argument though? It's entirely irrelevant..

 

[X1-12]

well Nihonjin, why don't we just like a one match set on a neutral? That would make you more skilled if you win correct?

you don't get to pick your character or stage based on their playstyle : which is part of your skill

even more so if you don't have CP ing then you don't have the test of your stage and match-up knowledge which is tested in Bo3

 

[Purple]

So? The most neutral and even setting would be one match, on a neutral, say final destination. Right?

Nothing and no one can be considered e even in skill. There are character MUs, stages, cps, skill, where they are, etc. And even if everything was to be perfectly even, there's still the idea that players don't know their own character's ditto MU, etc. etc.

Part of a player's skill is their skill to counterpick, to limit a better players options in a way that will allow them to win. That's part of their skill.

The people around then can also be implemented as a part of their skill, because it helps that person get in the right sense of mind. A lose is a lose, no matter what johns you can possibly use. You got outplayed. Whether it was because of the character they cp'd, the stage, the crowd, the coach, etc.

I mean, it wouldn't be fair for a team in basketball to have an amazing coach who tells them what they're doing wrong? Because that's not part of their team's skill.

 

[X1-12]

The people around then can also be implemented as a part of their skill,

so the people around them can also be implemented as a part of the player's skill


WHAT why are you talking such crap you say in that statement its NOT the player's skill. Its an outside factor.

 

[joeplicate]

having a good coach is actually fundamental to the success of a basketball team

you can't really draw that comparison to smash and expect the same reasoning to apply

 

[Nihonjin]

So? The most neutral and even setting would be one match, on a neutral, say final destination. Right?

That would not create the most accurate results.

Nothing and no one can be considered e even in skill. There are character MUs, stages, cps, skill, where they are, etc. And even if everything was to be perfectly even, there's still the idea that players don't know their own character's ditto MU, etc. etc.

Part of a player's skill is their skill to counterpick, to limit a better players options in a way that will allow them to win. That's part of their skill.

You're making sense so far.

The people around then can also be implemented as a part of their skill, because it helps that person get in the right sense of mind. A lose is a lose, no matter what johns you can possibly use. You got outplayed. Whether it was because of the character they cp'd, the stage, the crowd, the coach, etc.

Cheering is fair, because you can learn how to not be affected by it.

Counterpicking is fair, because you're allowed to switch characters if the picked stage doesn't favor your current one, and even if you lose, you get a chance to counter pick yourself.

Coaching is unfair, because no amount of practice will ever make you immune to being coached against.

Coaching is unfair, because if you pick a coach, I'm unable to pick that same coach to help me, ever.

Get it..? I'll say it again.

Because no choice I make or skill I acquire will ever allow me to defend against coaching and I do not have the opportunity to use the same coach against my opponent, it is, say it with me, unfair.

I mean, it wouldn't be fair for a team in basketball to have an amazing coach who tells them what they're doing wrong? Because that's not part of their team's skill.

Basketball is a team sport, the coach is part of the team.
Melee singles =/= Team sport

 

[Purple]

Why wouldn't you be allowed to pick the same coach?

 

[X1-12]

Coach to player one: Okay he's rolls inside so punish
coach to player two: Okay, I just told him to punish your rolls so expect this then just dont roll then punish him
coach to player one: He now WONT roll inside he will just wait, so run and grab him
coach to player two: Hes coming to grab you, roll inside



DO YOU NOT SEE THE PROBLEM?

 

[Nihonjin]

Why wouldn't you be allowed to pick the same coach?

Because one person cannot coach both players at the same time..?
I'm starting to wonder if you're serious or not..>_O

 

[Dark Hart]

One person can coach two people at the same time lol

 

[Nihonjin]

About as effectively as I can play myself in chess.

Also, that's ignoring the fact the coach might not want to coach you, but your opponent.

 

[Dark Hart]

You're constantly assuming that the coach is omniscient toward everything that's happening in the game. That why I have a hard time agreeing with some of your statements. They're gonna be human.

 

[Nihonjin]

You're constantly assuming that the coach is omniscient toward everything that's happening in the game. That why I have a hard time agreeing with some of your statements. They're gonna be human.

Either you didn't read a single one of my post, or your comprehensive reading skills are horrible. Because I made no such assumption and I don't see how anyone reach that conclusion based on what I said.

 

[X1-12]

if he notices player one is constantly spot-dodging after a tech, does he tell the player to stop doing so, or his opponent to punish him for it?

 

[soap]

are u guys against singles coaching for or against coaches for doubles teams as well?

i personally have trouble keeping track of my partners fights, having a coach directing our movements would be so cool

 

[Purple]

Because one person cannot coach both players at the same time..?
I'm starting to wonder if you're serious or not..>_O

No i'm being serious, if you choose the same coach, the coach can't effectively coach both of you. Which will lead you to have to option to not allow him to coach at all.

Obviously only two people could do this, or else everyone would choose the same person in bracket.

 

[Dark Hart]

Either you didn't read a single one of my post, or your comprehensive reading skills are horrible. Because I made no such assumption and I don't see how anyone reach that conclusion based on what I said.

Yeah, that ones probably right.

 

[X1-12]

are u guys against singles coaching for or against coaches for doubles teams as well?

i personally have trouble keeping track of my partners fights, having a coach directing our movements would be so cool

I personally am against it too, I think it should be part of your teamwork skills to work together, however if one of you is dead I reckon its okay for that player to coach the alive one

 

[Nihonjin]

No i'm being serious, if you choose the same coach, the coach can't effectively coach both of you. Which will lead you to have to option to not allow him to coach at all.

Or he rejects one and coaches the other.

Obviously only two people could do this, or else everyone would choose the same person in bracket.

There goes equal opportunity.

are u guys against singles coaching for or against coaches for doubles teams as well? I personally have trouble keeping track of my partners fights, having a coach directing our movements would be so cool

Nope, teams is 2 on 2, not 3 on 3.

If you have trouble keeping track of your partner your teamwork is off and you need to practice.

Besides, your team partner can talk to you himself to fill you in on what's happening..lol

 

[Jem.]

Coaches are usually biased, they would only want to help their friend win. (Unless they get paid, like Halo coaches do)