Clone Engine Misc. Discussion Thread

[SmashShadow]

Shadow gets a lot of unjustified hate sometimes. Sure he's similar to Sonic. But looking at Sonic's specials, there was nothing special about them. Half the characters in the Sonic franchise can use those moves, including Tails and Knuckles. There is nothing unique about spinning and jumping on a spring in the Sonic universe. People's first thing they say about Tails and Knuckles is that they contrast with Sonic more than Shadow with Tails having the flying/mechanical qualities and Knucles having the powerhouse qualities. I can concede to that. But they neglect to mention that Shadow fills his own niche being a master of chaos abilities. There are honestly more unique abilities that shadow has than either of those two have to work with. See for yourself.
http://sonic.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_the_Hedgehog
Besides, he's not going to be like Sonic unless they give him a #Spin4lyfe moveset like Sonic has (had) and I'd like to think they would've learned from the whole Sonic balancing fiasco rather than just making Shadow a clone of an already controversial moveset.

Then there's also the argument that he doesn't have as much history as the other two. Yet somehow, he's worked his way up to being the second most popular Sonic character. There's also a reason that he's the most downloaded and hacked character in brawl. Yeah, Tails got in Super Smash Flash 2, Shadow got in Super Smash Crusade. They are both popular fan generated Smash games. Shadow appeals to a lot of people because he's Sonic's rival.
*Incoming DBZ reference*
In many ways, it is comparable to relationship Vegeta has with Goku while Tails is like Krillin and Knuckles is like Piccolo. Vegeta: The rival of the same species who feels the need to prove he's superior to Goku. Krillin: the best friend of a long time who doesn't participate in the fighting much but still helps out from time to time. Piccolo: The one who shared a fierce rivalry early on then became friends with Goku but eventually his value started to diminish (Buu Sage >.>).

Also, PM is a game that revolves around doing things that Sakurai didn't, wasn't able to do or failed to do and the game has been fan-servicing us since day one. If a bunch of people want Shadow, and there isn't some kind of 3rd party licensing problems, then I don't see why it matters that he's 3rd party. We shouldn't have to hold ourselves to exact same standard that we do for the actual Smash games."Beyond legal restrictions, characters are chosen based on how popular they are as well as the unique gameplay and personality elements they can bring to the roster." Nowhere in there does it say characters are chosen based on how Sakurai would make the roster.

 

[Generically Epic]

Just use the forbidden 7 except for Doc and Young Link.

 

[Friesnchip]

Alright, you've made some noteworthy points about Shadow, but I would like to counter a portion of you argument, if you don't mind of course.

...they neglect to mention that Shadow fills his own niche being a master of chaos abilities. There are honestly more unique abilities that shadow has than either of those two [Tails and Knuckles]... Besides, he's not going to be like Sonic unless they give him a #Spin4lyfe moveset like Sonic has (had) and I'd like to think they would've learned from the whole Sonic balancing fiasco rather than just making Shadow a clone of an already controversial moveset.

• True, Shadow does have his own unique abilities, however they would be a pain to implement in P:M. Many of his chaos abilities are projectile based, which within the confines of the clone engine, cannot be added to Sonic's clone base be cause of article limitations (I believe Sonic only has one, the spring).
• The spin mechanics of Sonic's moveset are controversial, but some of those animations would be able to be reused for Tails or Knuckles and save P:M a lot of development time, where Shadow would not benefit nearly as much if he was using a chaos power oriented moveset instead.

Then there's also the argument that he doesn't have as much history as the other two. Yet somehow, he's worked his way up to being the second most popular Sonic character.

• This argument is entirely opinion based, especially considering the controversy surrounding Shadow and his game appearances. Of the main series games after SA2, Shadow was in Sonic Heroes (average reception), Shadow the Hedgehog (not well received), Sonic '06 (not well received), Sonic and the Secret Rings (mixed reception), and Sonic and the Black Knight (mixed reception). So his popularity doesn't seem especially warranted compared to Tails and Knuckles who have appeared in FAR more games, the majority of which are overall more acclaimed.

There's also a reason that he's the most downloaded and hacked character in brawl.

• Mostly because Sonic and Shadow share almost exact proportions (Shadow is a clone after all), and is much easier to implement as a result, whether that be through costume change or character modding.

Yeah, Tails got in Super Smash Flash 2, Shadow got in Super Smash Crusade. They are both popular fan generated Smash games.

• Well by that logic, Tails is more popular than Shadow because he is in both SSF2 and Crusade, Knuckles as well in latter.

Shadow appeals to a lot of people because he's Sonic's rival.

• That is true, but... I just don't like this argument. Knuckles still has a friendly rivalry with Sonic, Silver is also Sonic's rival, along with other characters like Jet, Nack, and others. Honestly in terms of counterpart 'enemy/rival' characters, I'd much rather see Eggman or Metal Sonic. But again, not a great argument.

Also, PM is a game that revolves around doing things that Sakurai didn't

• P:M is indirectly about doing things that Sakurai didn't. The main purpose of P:M is to re-implement the mechanics and play-style of Melee within the environment of the next iteration of Smash. The game isn't about spiting Sakurai because his game design decisions didn't correlate with the competitive fighting game scene. So adding Shadow just because Sakurai didn't is not a worthwhile reason.

Anyway, these are my thoughts. Don't take my opinions personally, but I don't feel Shadow has priority over Knuckles or especially Tails... but I also think that these new characters should be from the Nintendo universe, as I made known in an earlier statement in this thread.

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

*sigh* Remember when this topic was for fun?

That was a nice 2 or 3 pages, wasn't it?

 

[Friesnchip]

*sigh* Remember when this topic was for fun?

That was a nice 2 or 3 pages, wasn't it?

Err, yeah. I guess I haven't been helping much on that front. I'll try to be a little less vocal from now on; everyone should be able to state their opinions without receiving a paragraph response in return.

Its just that Shadow is a really popular 'candidate', I guess is the term, and I'm a bit apprehensive about that.

 

[9bit]

*sigh* Remember when this topic was for fun?

That was a nice 2 or 3 pages, wasn't it?

 

[Deleted member]

I think the problem with that is the simple fact that Ragnall is considered a vital blade of the series, and as we've seen, it's kind of the lords' thing to wield their corresponding icon weapon. Plus, Lyn is still and assist trophy, which does here more harm than good. This means that adding her would semi-imply that a new assist trophy be added, which is probably still a hassle. Not to mention, these characters are meant to be based off of existing characters, and Lyn in your terms doesn't quite have a match. Hector could work over Ike............just sayin'.

Considering Assist Trophies aren't competitively viable, I don't see how this is an issue.

This is like saying, "PT can't be split cause then they'd have no FS."

As for the Lyn concept, Sheik can be used as a starting point. Her concept is pretty much a mix of Sheik and Marth with more aerial prowess. The only thing that would be tricky to implement is the Counter, but it can be simplified she can still be given a special counter to differ her from Ike, Marth and Roy. Perhaps something more like MK? Sheik would defo be the best starting point actually, mostly cause of how battoujutsu works, and you wouldn't wanna have an unsheathed sword at all times. Then you can play around with it, and take some properties from Marth, and just go from there.

What makes the concept is the Jump Cancel UpB, and the unique counter, as well as the ability to quickly string moves together. At least in what I wrote up, who knows what the PMBR has in mind.

I dislike the idea of adding a new character, if all we're getting is a clone. If that's what you want, then just get a Hector skin and put it over Ike, you can already do that in P:M.

Just use the forbidden 7 except for Doc and Young Link.

How boring man.

 

[OrangeSodaGuy]

If another Fire Emblem character was considered, I'd really want to say Celice.... but I seriously doubt it would be feasible or worth it. As amazing as Seisen no Keifu is, he doesn't seem to have enough going for him to separate him from Marth/Roy/Ike. Lyn is female, and there are lords that use other weapons such as lances, etc. Doesn't help that none of the Jugdral games have gotten any love in Smash, not even as trophies.

Then again, this is all pure wishful thinking. I'd be more than satisfied and overjoyed on every level just to see Mewtwo return alongside Yoshi/Kirby/Samus/IceClimbers/Olimar.

That was Peachy also makes a great point. It would be a real shame if the PMBR started work on a character only to have to scrap everything because they got confirmed for SSB4.

Knuckles is awesome, but adding more third parties might not be the best idea if the PMBR isn't seeking any unwanted attention from those other companies-- and jumping off that third party/non-nintendo slope would turn the game into Super Smash Bros Mugen.

Good to see ChronoBound in this thread as well. Always enjoyed your Gamefaqs threads.

 

[SmashShadow]

Alright, you've made some noteworthy points about Shadow, but I would like to counter a portion of you argument, if you don't mind of course.

• True, Shadow does have his own unique abilities, however they would be a pain to implement in P:M. Many of his chaos abilities are projectile based, which within the confines of the clone engine, cannot be added to Sonic's clone base be cause of article limitations (I believe Sonic only has one, the spring).
• If you looked at pretty much any psa with Shadow in it, you would see that it's possible to implement.
• The spin mechanics of Sonic's moveset are controversial, but some of those animations would be able to be reused for Tails or Knuckles and save P:M a lot of development time, where Shadow would not benefit nearly as much if he was using a chaos power oriented moveset instead.
• While that is true, again this works in Shadow's favor as well then. Also, I've never to clear on the whole projectile thing ever since Ivy was given Deoyx's move for her solarbeam. Also, there are only like 4-5 moves that he has that are projectiles and I know for a fact that at least 2 articles in brawl could be used for two of them without really having to do much to them at all.

• This argument is entirely opinion based, especially considering the controversy surrounding Shadow and his game appearances. Of the main series games after SA2, Shadow was in Sonic Heroes (average reception), Shadow the Hedgehog (not well received), Sonic '06 (not well received), Sonic and the Secret Rings (mixed reception), and Sonic and the Black Knight (mixed reception). So his popularity doesn't seem especially warranted compared to Tails and Knuckles who have appeared in FAR more games, the majority of which are overall more acclaimed.
• I actually got that from a poll. Secondly, you can't hold Shadow those games (maybe barring Shadow the Hedgehog) but not hold Tails and Knuckles or even Sonic to them as well. Character popularity isn't proportionate to how well the game did as if that was the case, Sonic would not have been popular at all at the time he was put in brawl.

• Mostly because Sonic and Shadow share almost exact proportions (Shadow is a clone after all), and is much easier to implement as a result, whether that be through costume change or character modding.
• While yes, this is probably part of the reason, it doesn't explain why he is still the most downloaded still. Another thing, this is also a point in his favor because it makes animating him easier.

• Well by that logic, Tails is more popular than Shadow because he is in both SSF2 and Crusade, Knuckles as well in latter.
• I actually havn't played Crusade so you got me with this one.

• That is true, but... I just don't like this argument. Knuckles still has a friendly rivalry with Sonic, Silver is also Sonic's rival, along with other characters like Jet, Nack, and others. Honestly in terms of counterpart 'enemy/rival' characters, I'd much rather see Eggman or Metal Sonic. But again, not a great argument.
• When has Knuckles actually done anything rival worthy in the past decade? He's basically been downgraded to one of Sonic's helper friends. Metal Sonic works much better here than Knuckles does.

• P:M is indirectly about doing things that Sakurai didn't. The main purpose of P:M is to re-implement the mechanics and play-style of Melee within the environment of the next iteration of Smash. The game isn't about spiting Sakurai because his game design decisions didn't correlate with the competitive fighting game scene. So adding Shadow just because Sakurai didn't is not a worthwhile reason.
• It's not about spiting Sakurai at all. Its about adding in a character that he wouldn't have because the community has a large demand for it.

Anyway, these are my thoughts. Don't take my opinions personally, but I don't feel Shadow has priority over Knuckles or especially Tails... but I also think that these new characters should be from the Nintendo universe, as I made known in an earlier statement in this thread.
I never said he directly beats out Tails and Knuckles, just that he shouldn't be ruled out because of them.

 

[ChronoBound]

Just use the forbidden 7 except for Doc and Young Link.

The Forbidden 7:

-Roy: Already done.
- Mewtwo: Should be done (and very likely to happen)
- Dixie Kong: Should be done
- Dr. Mario: Considering they can't make unique projectiles, and hence, no megavitamins, Doc isn't Doc without his pills, so no. Besides, they already incorporated the best aspects of Doc into Project M Mario.
- pra_mai (probably Plusle & Minun): No
- Toon Zelda: No
- Toon Sheik: What was Sakurai even thinking?

 

[Raccoon Chuck]

Sheik and Marth are not the type of base the PMBR would use, as to they are entirely different sets of animations on 2 different rigs. This only furthers the work of smoothing inherent inconsistencies. And NO, I find it unlike the PMBR to release something detrimental of polish on ALL levels, as this is meant to be POLISHED...IN LINE WITH THE SERIE'S ROOTS...and a high quality, enjoyable game for ALL levels. I recommended Hector over Ike on the grounds that Ike is a character that wields his blade in an Axe like fashion, meaning many of those animations are absolutely ideal for this form of character development, and reside upon one rig alone.

 

[Tuvillo]

Sonic confirmed for Smash 4, does that have any effects on who can and can't be added for the Clone engine? Might need to watch it with the Sonic characters now.

 

[MonkUnit]

Smash 4 has no influence on who can or cannot be added. The rules are still the same as in the blog post - only characters that are in the game in one way or another. e.g., stickers, trophies, assist trophies, etc.

 

[ChronoBound]

Smash 4 has no influence on who can or cannot be added. The rules are still the same as in the blog post - only characters that are in the game in one way or another. e.g., stickers, trophies, assist trophies, etc.

That's a good thing considering there is a decent chance that Mewtwo will be confirmed in the actual Smash 4 next week.

 

[MVP]

That's a good thing considering there is a decent chance that Mewtwo will be confirmed in the actual Smash 4 next week.

i seriously doubt that K. rool, and Mewtwo are gunna be in smash 4 cause Saki is dumb.... i want them in PM though

 

[ChronoBound]

i seriously doubt that K. rool, and Mewtwo are gunna be in smash 4 cause Saki is dumb.... i want them in PM though

I have very serious doubts that Mewtwo WONT be in Smash 4. He is the single most wanted character in both Japan and the West.

K. Rool is also among the Top 3 most wanted newcomers in both Japan and the West, so he has a very good shot as well.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

Captain Falcon had no moveset before he was in SSB. This is no excuse.

So they just made up CF's move set O_O. That is weird. But isn't CF a bounty hunter and a F Zero driver? It would make sense that he can fight if he is a bounty hunter. But honestly, CF looks like a guy that can put up a good fight. Plus he is way more interesting than some dude flying on balloons. Maybe Balloon fighter can have his own move set. But I am definitely not changing my opinion on how Balloon Fighter is soooooooo boring.

 

[hotdogturtle]

Captain Falcon has never been in a game outside of his car, except for cutscenes and character selection screens.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

Sakurai is really dumb. It wouldn't surprise me that they won't make it in because he is that dumb. It would make most fans very happy if K. Rool and Mewtwo make it in smash 4. The only hype thing about smash 4 for me so far is Mega man but thats it. Project M is 1,000 times more hype than smash 4. A weak character roster is a great reason alone not to buy the game (That is my fear for the game for some reason).

I am guessing the PMBR are going to make the really popular characters like K. Rool. Again I am just guessing that is what they are going to do. Mewtwo has the highest chance out of everyone else for making it in PM. I am not worried about M2.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Concerning the Mewtwo subject in Smash 4. I highly doubt Nintendo is the type of company that would include a character in Smash, take him out in the sequel that came out seven years later, to the add him to the newest game which is about five or six years apart. No matter how relevant said character may be, I highly doubt they'd leave someone out of one of their games only to re-introduce them later in that manner.

 

[ChronoBound]

As I said before, I would be EXTREMELY shocked if Mewtwo DID NOT return for Smash 4. He is the single most wanted character in both Japan and the West. He is also being heavily promoted during the Pokemon X/Y generation, with two new super forms, as well as a movie released in Japanese theatres only a few months ago that had him as the central character.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

Captain Falcon has never been in a game outside of his car, except for cutscenes and character selection screens.

Oh..... I thought I heard he was a bounty hunter from somewhere. IDK maybe i am just crazy lol. But he still puts up a better fight than balloon fighter.

 

[AFROofJUSTICE]

As I said before, I would be EXTREMELY shocked if Mewtwo DID NOT return for Smash 4. He is the single most wanted character in both Japan and the West. He is also being heavily promoted during the Pokemon X/Y generation, with two new super forms, as well as a movie released in Japanese theatres only a few months ago that had him as the central character.

Your right. I guess I should have more faith in the game.....

 

[SmashShadow]

So, they used a new article for Doc. Does that mean that the PM backroom is not as limited as once thought when it came to projectiles?

 

[Kaye Cruiser]

Captain Falcon has never been in a game outside of his car, except for cutscenes and character selection screens.

He's just talking about his bio. Captain Falcon's bios have always stated that he's a bounty hunter. That's all.

 

[HyperrCrow]

As I said before, I would be EXTREMELY shocked if Mewtwo DID NOT return for Smash 4. He is the single most wanted character in both Japan and the West. He is also being heavily promoted during the Pokemon X/Y generation, with two new super forms, as well as a movie released in Japanese theatres only a few months ago that had him as the central character.

I don't know, that'd be some really screwed up sh** if Sakurai re-introduced Mewtwo. Despite all the heavy promotion from X/Y, Mewtwo has always been relevant in Pokemon, he's top 3 in competitive battling and well known for having a deadly movepool and high base stat, many regard him as the best pokemon out there. Needless to say, he's not easily forgettable among anyone.
The only reason I MIGHT even see him being in is for Sakurai to experiment with making his FS one of his Mega forms.

 

[ChronoBound]

I don't know, that'd be some really screwed up sh** if Sakurai re-introduced Mewtwo..

Plenty of fighting games have re-introduced characters that were cut in previous installments.

Mewtwo and Roy were supposed to be in Brawl anyway. Sakurai said more characters would have made it in Brawl had he been given more time.

 

[Strong Badam]

So, they used a new article for Doc. Does that mean that the PM backroom is not as limited as once thought when it came to projectiles?

We used conditional modifiers to edit Mario's Fireball. We did not create a new projectile.

 

[Anti Guy]

I don't know, that'd be some really screwed up sh** if Sakurai re-introduced Mewtwo. Despite all the heavy promotion from X/Y, Mewtwo has always been relevant in Pokemon, he's top 3 in competitive battling and well known for having a deadly movepool and high base stat, many regard him as the best pokemon out there. Needless to say, he's not easily forgettable among anyone.
The only reason I MIGHT even see him being in is for Sakurai to experiment with making his FS one of his Mega forms.

...what? Your post makes absolutely no sense. You say it'd be messed up to put him in because of a bunch of reasons why he's so important?

 

[B.W.]

Captain Falcon never had a full moveset, but in F-Zero for the SNES the instruction booklet had a comic in it that showed him outside of his Blue Falcon and he used his Falcon Punch in the comic.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Captain Falcon never had a full moveset, but in F-Zero for the SNES the instruction booklet had a comic in it that showed him outside of his Blue Falcon and he used his Falcon Punch in the comic.

So that's where the Falcon Punch came from. I must look this comic up so I can see it in all of it's original glory.

 

[B.W.]

http://www.captainfalcon.com/comic.html

Apparently Falcon Punch didn't originate from this comic. I swear it came from something before Smash, but now I forget where I got this information from. Hmm...

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

http://www.captainfalcon.com/comic.html

Apparently Falcon Punch didn't originate from this comic. I swear it came from something before Smash, but now I forget where I got this information from. Hmm...

He did use his gun in that comic though. Well at least he uses Falcon Punch in the anime.

 

[Chzrm3]

So, how do you guys feel now that we know about this sexy alt costume engine? Have any of the characters you'd wanted as clone-engine characters shifted into alt-engine characters?

 

[HyperrCrow]

...what? Your post makes absolutely no sense. You say it'd be messed up to put him in because of a bunch of reasons why he's so important?

All I'm saying is, if he's so important, why take him out to begin with to then re-add him? Makes no sense.

 

[ChronoBound]

All I'm saying is, if he's so important, why take him out to begin with to then re-add him? Makes no sense.

Not if they didn't purposely take him out (they were intending to bring him back for Brawl, but couldn't due to time constraints).

 

[HyperrCrow]

Not if they didn't purposely take him out (they were intending to bring him back for Brawl, but couldn't due to time constraints).

I do remember hearing something of that sort, but that instead he was replaced with Lucario. Which seems more believable since Lucario was very popular at the time.

 

[ChronoBound]

I do remember hearing something of that sort, but that instead he was replaced with Lucario. Which seems more believable since Lucario was very popular at the time.

Nowhere did Sakurai say he replaced Lucario with Mewtwo. Sakurai's intention was to bring back Mewtwo in Brawl, but he couldn't due to time constraints.

 

[HyperrCrow]

Nowhere did Sakurai say he replaced Lucario with Mewtwo. Sakurai's intention was to bring back Mewtwo in Brawl, but he couldn't due to time constraints.

I never said he replaced Lucario, or you just worded that wrong.

Anyways, take my opinion with a grain of salt. I just see it as Mewtwo has already been ejected from the Smash franchise and won't make a return in an official game.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I hope this is appropriate to ask here, I don't wana bring up ridiculous things. I know the main purpoise of Project M is to make it feel like a sequel to Melee, but now with the clone engine I feel like this could be doable.

So ganondorf... hes always been a huge concern of mine since he was released as a clone in melee. It bothered me so much since day one. So i was wondering if with the clone engine this could create the option/opportunity to port another character over ganondorf (just skin and audio effects mainly). For example black shadow or demise could work great as a ganondorf replacement. This would keep that character move set in the game while opening the door to perhaps giving ganondorf his own move set.

Anyone feel the same about that?