Data "Chimera Laboratory" - Lucas moveset discussion

[chipyip]

Down throw combos immediately to uptilt on pika up to 65%, I'll test with others later

 

[divade]

Down throw combos immediately to uptilt on pika up to 65%, I'll test with others later

Works on bowser until %85, cool.

 

[Drippy]

Isn't Down Throw -> U-Air a true combo and it seems like the most damaging one as well. You have to be really quick when doing it though and it may or may not be DI dependent but I'm not 100% sure.

EDIT: Seems like DT -> U-Tilt at lower percents and towards higher percents we should start leaning towards U-Air.

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

Isn't Down Throw -> U-Air a true combo and it seems like the most damaging one as well. You have to be really quick when doing it though and it may or may not be DI dependent but I'm not 100% sure.

EDIT: Seems like DT -> U-Tilt at lower percents and towards higher percents we should start leaning towards U-Air.

Yes but that is also a viable kill option so I don't recommend doing it all the time in fear of staling up air

Plus down throw to up tilt leaves you open to follow ups depending on DI

So yes your edit is correct =/

 

[Leololer]

D-Throw Up air is a true combo on kill percents on heavys and migweaights. Can confirm

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

Also it looks like a system physics change made it to where thundersliding is no longer possible (as with all specials that let you slide off the edge)....this makes me a sad panda =[[[[


Edit: Also it looks like dtilt does not trip anymore

 

[Drippy]

Yes but that is also a viable kill option so I don't recommend doing it all the time in fear of staling up air

Plus down throw to up tilt leaves you open to follow ups depending on DI

So yes your edit is correct =/

Ahh alright, yea that makes sense.
On the other hand I'm a really big fan of doing n-air auto-cancel into up tilts and other follow ups, it's such an amazing combo. Can't wait to see what else is discovered today with Lucas, at this point I'm heavily debating Lucas and Roy...

 

[Natch]

Back throw kills. Set a Marth to 120% in training mode, in FD. Run all the way to edge(roll if you have to so you're as close as you can get) grab, and throw. Sparks should happen, and Marth should die.The Marth was set to CPU Lv 6, in case that has any affect on how-or if-they DI. Remember that this is without Rage though. So it should theoretically kill earlier in a real match.

 

[Drippy]

Has anyone found any uses for D-Air? That's like the only aerial I can't really seem to effectively use.

Back throw kills. Set a Marth to 120% in training mode, in FD. Run all the way to edge(roll if you have to so you're as close as you can get) grab, and throw. Sparks should happen, and Marth should die.The Marth was set to CPU Lv 6, in case that has any affect on how-or if-they DI. Remember that this is without Rage though.

Up throw is a kill move as well

 

[Natch]

Has anyone found any uses for D-Air? That's like the only aerial I can't really seem to effectively use.


Up throw is a kill move as well

So I've heard.

 

[ilysm]

When I heard that up-air was going to be like Ness's I braced myself for cries that Lucas is busted, but the darn thing's hitbox is abysmal. I haven't really found a use for dair, either. Shame, but I'm sure something will pop up.

 

[Ventus55]

Lucas' aerials are very good.

 

[Ventus55]

He is a very good character

 

[Odd_0ne]

Does anyone know which part of Lucas's foot spikes in his b-air?

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

When I heard that up-air was going to be like Ness's I braced myself for cries that Lucas is busted, but the darn thing's hitbox is abysmal. I haven't really found a use for dair, either. Shame, but I'm sure something will pop up.

Ya they really nerfed the range on his abilities (ie. dair uair fair) unfortunately that plus leading into any kill options is somewhat difficult. Maybe it'll just require some more time to study him, but right now I feel like he's pretty mediocre.

 

[Perris6]

Another down throw combo can be Down Throw --> RAR Back air --> into anything (preferably jab Which is quick or grab)

 

[divade]

Does anyone know which part of Lucas's foot spikes in his b-air?

It's the moment he brings his foot down, you want the opponent on your upside down a** (butt).

 

[FlynnCL]

Neutral-aerial combos into itself or into a lot of other aerials. It's an extremely good move.

So far, I'm loving down-aerial. A full hop rising down-aerial will weakly meteor smash an opponent to the ground but they'll be forced into a moment of stun. If you fast-fall and auto-cancel it (timing can be tricky but it's almost immediately after the last hit), you can combo it into his tilts or grab starting from around 30%.

It will force tumble around 80-90% which gives an opponent a chance to tech, but if they don't you can continue with another down-aerial or finish with up-aerial.

 

[Odd_0ne]

It's the moment he brings his foot down, you want the opponent on your upside down a** (butt).

So basically when the opponent is literally on his @ss(butt) during his b-air animation?

 

[divade]

So basically when the opponent is literally on his @ss(butt) during his b-air animation?

I don't mean overlap the booty but yeah, right down his back is where I get it. (and I just found they can be directly below you, dunno how to describe that cause it was so quick )

BTW if they are grounded it sends them away.

 

[Odd_0ne]

I don't mean overlap the booty but yeah, right down his back is where I get it. (and I just found they can be directly below you, dunno how to describe that cause it was so quick )

BTW if they are grounded it sends them away.

thanks

 

[FullMoon]

Does anyone know which part of Lucas's foot spikes in his b-air?

I think one of the tips says to hit with Lucas's knee.

 

[Drippy]

Is it just me or is it I can't consistently pull off D-Throw U-Air at high percents and D-Throw U-Tilt until mid percents like everyone is saying. I don't know, I've been trying it all day and simply can't pull it off, perhaps I'm to slow or something? I always feel like they get popped up to hard, and rage is definitely a factor into this and it's kind of hard to avoid not having rage.

EDIT: In training mode and D-Throw to Up Tilt stops working on Mario CPU past 27%, I don't know how some people are pulling it off until high percents like 65% on some characters. Are you just waiting for them to fall and reading the air dodge?

EDIT 2: Nvm it seems it's just character dependant, I was able to do it at high percents against Pikachu but can't do it with Mario

EDIT 3: Wtf I can't do D-Throw -> U-Tilt on Luigi at 14% if I'm facing left but if I'm facing right and do it, it'll always land? Is there any explanation as to why it works this way and also why this only works on some characters (I think) and not others? I have no problem pulling off D-Throw -> Up Tilt on Pikachu at high percents but Mario / Luigi seem I can't do it...
EDIT 4:
D-Throw -> U-Tilt Working Percents (Used Lvl 7 CPU, not accounting rage / DI)

Mario: 26% (facing right), 24% (facing left). (97% on left ledge, 96% on right ledge)
Luigi: 14% (facing right), 13% (facing left). (97% on left ledge, 96% on right ledge)
Peach: 86% both sides (126% on ledges)
Bowser: 85% facing right, 87% facing left. (Ledge does nothing)
Yoshi: 78% both sides (116% on ledges)
Rosalina: 52% both sides (111% on ledges)
Bowser Jr: Doesn't work at any percent (112% on ledges)
Wario: 45% on both sides (71% on ledges)
Donkey Kong: 62% both sides (139% on ledges)
Diddy Kong: 62% both sides (Ledge does nothing)
Game & Watch: 51% both sides (81% on ledges)
Little Mac: 64% both sides (122% on sides)
Link: 68% both sides (135% on ledges)
Zelda: 78% both sides (115% on ledges)


EDIT 5:
I've mastered D-Throw to U-Air at high percents, I just need to do it faster + move towards the direction the enemy is knocked towards instead of just jumping up and U-Airing so nvm for that question.

EDIT 6: I just found out that doing the combo on the ledge and I mean like the END of the ledge greatly affects what percents you can do the combo by a lot but I suppose it's useless since you can just back throw anyways if you grab someone on ledge but I'm bored and this is a complete data thing I want to do so I'll include it anyways.

 

[soniczx123]

Have recorded of evidence of a match between me(Lucas) and my brother(Ness) in which he used a PK Flash on me and I absorbed it from behind. Maybe the hitbox behind you has just become smaller.

 

[Tito Maas]

New Lucas user here. In what situations should I use PK Freeze? Or is it just a bonus killer like Ness's PK Flash?

 

[Lwin]

You could probably use it to bait an airdodge seeing as it has so little ending lag. Other then that I'm not too sure, but it does that job fairly well

 

[PKBeam]

freeze doesn't really kill unless you Uair it or something. use it to edgeguard (floaties) and it is an alright onstage tool if you use it sparingly.

 

[divade]

Is it just me or is it I can't consistently pull off D-Throw U-Air at high percents and D-Throw U-Tilt until mid percents like everyone is saying. I don't know, I've been trying it all day and simply can't pull it off, perhaps I'm to slow or something? I always feel like they get popped up to hard, and rage is definitely a factor into this and it's kind of hard to avoid not having rage.

EDIT: In training mode and D-Throw to Up Tilt stops working on Mario CPU past 27%, I don't know how some people are pulling it off until high percents like 65% on some characters. Are you just waiting for them to fall and reading the air dodge?

EDIT 2: Nvm it seems it's just character dependant, I was able to do it at high percents against Pikachu but can't do it with Mario

EDIT 3: Wtf I can't do D-Throw -> U-Tilt on Luigi at 14% if I'm facing left but if I'm facing right and do it, it'll always land? Is there any explanation as to why it works this way and also why this only works on some characters (I think) and not others? I have no problem pulling off D-Throw -> Up Tilt on Pikachu at high percents but Mario / Luigi seem I can't do it...
EDIT 4:
D-Throw -> U-Tilt Working Percents (Used Lvl 7 CPU, not accounting rage / DI)

Mario: 26% (facing right), 24% (facing left). (97% on left ledge, 96% on right ledge)
Luigi: 14% (facing right), 13% (facing left). (97% on left ledge, 96% on right ledge)
Peach: 86% both sides (126% on ledges)
Bowser: 85% facing right, 87% facing left. (Ledge does nothing)
Yoshi: 78% both sides (116% on ledges)
Rosalina: 52% both sides (111% on ledges)
Bowser Jr: Doesn't work at any percent (112% on ledges)
Wario: 45% on both sides (71% on ledges)
Donkey Kong: 62% both sides (139% on ledges)
Diddy Kong: 62% both sides (Ledge does nothing)
Game & Watch: 51% both sides (81% on ledges)
Little Mac: 64% both sides (122% on sides)
Link: 68% both sides (135% on ledges)
Zelda: 78% both sides (115% on ledges)


EDIT 5:
I've mastered D-Throw to U-Air at high percents, I just need to do it faster + move towards the direction the enemy is knocked towards instead of just jumping up and U-Airing so nvm for that question.

EDIT 6: I just found out that doing the combo on the ledge and I mean like the END of the ledge greatly affects what percents you can do the combo by a lot but I suppose it's useless since you can just back throw anyways if you grab someone on ledge but I'm bored and this is a complete data thing I want to do so I'll include it anyways.

good work, good to know for a matchup thread, (and really good to know it never works on BowJr. )
that's really weird that direction matters, i guess Utilt has a fixed leaning hitbox, or some characters are very unsymetrical when falling.

About PK freeze. It really doesn't kill well, I've not found the best use but it's fast so if they're out of range of pk fire I would try that. I also use it if someone keeps trying full hopped aerials, or if they're far offstage, which actually might be a good move after the magnet knockback since it's totally horizontal.

 

[RRoulette]

Fair can be used as both a spacing and approach option, it is very safe.

Magnet can also kill and be a semi-spike, aka Lucas' magnet is like Fox's shine in Melee.

 

[Patriot Duck]

Down throw > up smash is a true combo on Captain Falcon from 0-35%. Tested in training mode. It does a solid 25%.

Edit: Only works on Sheik from 0-14%. Shame.

 

[Drippy]

good work, good to know for a matchup thread, (and really good to know it never works on BowJr. )
that's really weird that direction matters, i guess Utilt has a fixed leaning hitbox, or some characters are very unsymetrical when falling.

About PK freeze. It really doesn't kill well, I've not found the best use but it's fast so if they're out of range of pk fire I would try that. I also use it if someone keeps trying full hopped aerials, or if they're far offstage, which actually might be a good move after the magnet knockback since it's totally horizontal.

No problem, I'll probably do the rest of the character cast soon and yea this is definitely a really odd occurrence.

 

[Pretty Princess]

I'm beginning to learn using Lucas, and it looks like his D-Throw leads into quite a bit of his moveset (depending on %).

PK Freeze
U-Smash (imo, this is a shaky option, not very safe at the percents it works at)
U-Tilt
U-Air
N-Air
F-Air

Am I missing any other follow ups?

edit: I've found that D-Throw -> D-Air works pretty well. At mid-high percents you'll have to immediately use your second jump to get all 4 hits in. I'm going to test it more, but it's a pretty solid mixup if you can read their DI well, and it also does the most damage of all his aerials. :]

edit 2: B-Air and Z-Air work as well, so basically all of his aerials can follow up a D-Throw. lol

 

[Tito Maas]

What are some good approach options for Lucas?

 

[Ventus55]

Is it a good idea to use Lucas' dash attack. Also when is it a good time to use a dtilt.

 

[divade]

What are some good approach options for Lucas?

I don't approach as often as most characters, okay freeze and fire can make them pull offensive a lot, but I haven't fought a link or samus yet. Batting items, or absorbing them can help a lot for that.
To actually answer your question, I use falling nairs, retreating fairs and canceling my jumps with PKM, it gives some unique forward movement.

Is it a good idea to use Lucas' dash attack. Also when is it a good time to use a dtilt.

I like his dash, it is a bit risky though.
I can't find a use for dtilt outside of dancing. Not tested if you can slip one in before our jab combo.

 

[Lwin]

Fair can be used as both a spacing and approach option, it is very safe.

Magnet can also kill and be a semi-spike, aka Lucas' magnet is like Fox's shine in Melee.

Sorry for the sarcasm but are you still talking about smash 4? Lucas fair took a big hit with its added end lag. This single change makes Lucas a lot less safe and less efficient with spacing than he was in brawl.

 

[meleebrawler]

Sorry for the sarcasm but are you still talking about smash 4? Lucas fair took a big hit with its added end lag. This single change makes Lucas a lot less safe and less efficient with spacing than he was in brawl.

Normally this would be bad but luckily the snake pretty much has replaced fair as a spacing move .

 

[Ventus55]

Should I use Pk freeze if so when

 

[divade]

Should I use Pk freeze if so when

Please do a basic search of the thread, or at least read the page you're on. Someone has asked this and at least I have responded, others may later.

 

[Drippy]

Alright so I'm take a shower and then focus on finishing up the D-Throw to U-Tilt combo percents list. Is there anything else I should test in training mode so I can do it in one go instead of having to go back later? Also here's the current list that I already have for D-Throw to Up Tilt working percentages.


D-Throw -> U-Tilt Working Percents (Used Lvl 7 CPU)

Mario: 26% (facing right), 24% (facing left). (97% on left ledge, 96% on right ledge)
Luigi: 14% (facing right), 13% (facing left). (97% on left ledge, 96% on right ledge)
Peach: 86% both sides (126% on ledges)
Bowser: 85% facing right, 87% facing left. (Ledge doesn't affect it)
Yoshi: 78% both sides (116% on ledges)
Rosalina: 52% both sides (111% on ledges)
Bowser Jr: Doesn't work at any percent (112% on ledges)
Wario: 45% on both sides (71% on ledges)
Donkey Kong: 62% both sides (139% on ledges)
Diddy Kong: 62% both sides (Ledge doesn't affect it)
Game & Watch: 51% both sides (81% on ledges)
Little Mac: 64% both sides (122% on sides)
Link: 68% both sides (135% on ledges)
Zelda: 78% both sides (115% on ledges)
Sheik: 63% both sides (131% on ledges and kills)
Ganondorf: 3% both sides (25% on ledges)
Toon Link: 66% both sides (98% on ledges)
Samus: 131% both sides (174% on ledges and kills)
Zero Suit Samus: 22% both sides (Ledge doesn't affect it)
Pit: 74% both sides (136% on ledges)
Palutena: 73% both sides (116% on ledges)
Marth: 99% both sides (144% on ledges and kills)