Data "Chimera Laboratory" - Lucas moveset discussion

PKPenguin

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Offstage Magnet is stupidly lethal. Literally every time I have landed it when my opponent is over 100% offstage, they have died. Not to mention how it causes you to stall in the air and places the hitbox in front of you, making it easier to land and harder to counter. Super stylish, too.
 

Drippy

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Only managed to get a few today because of reasons that were preventing me today from testing it out some more and also been watching NAKAT's stream so it's hyped.

Sheik: 63% both sides (131% on ledges and kills)
Ganondorf: 3% both sides (25% on ledges)
Toon Link: 66% both sides (98% on ledges)
Samus: 131% both sides (174% on ledges and kills)
Zero Suit Samus: 22% both sides (Ledge doesn't affect it)
Pit: 74% both sides (136% on ledges)
Palutena: 73% both sides (116% on ledges)
Marth: 99% both sides (144% on ledges and kills)
 

Drippy

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@ D Drippy does Lucas's dthrow have that effect where using it on the ledge means it has less knockback?
I'm honestly not sure if it's specific to Lucas's down throw or not, I just kind of found this out by accident when I was constantly testing the combo and eventually I moved the CPU to one side. At first I didn't realize it and I was really confused doing it at a high percent and not being able to replicate it but while testing it on a Zelda bot I noticed it was working on the ledge. Is this a new discovery or has this always been around?
 

Drippy

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Okay so I'm going to finish up the list today but I found another weird thing so I'm posting this early, also anyone know why my pummel sometimes does 2% instead of 1%? Is this the rhythm pummeling or are pummels naturally like this?

Ike: 49% both sides (146% on ledges)
Robin: 108% both sides (155% on ledges)
Duck Hunt Duo: 54% (facing right), 55% (facing left). (90% on ledges)
Kirby: 32% (facing right), 33% (facing left). (Ledges doesn't affect it)
King Dedede: 66% both sides (170% on ledges and kills)
Metaknight: 73% both sides (106% on ledges)
Fox: 55% both sides (107% on ledges)
Falco: 67% both sides (99% on ledges)
Pikachu: 65% both sides (84% on ledges)
Charizard: 103% both sides (Ledges doesn't affect it)
Lucario: 41% both sides (92% on ledges)
Jigglypuff: 35% both sides (Ledges doesn't affect it)
Greninja: 81% (facing right), 80% (facing left). (142% left ledge, 143% right ledge and kills)
R.O.B.: 101% both sides (Ledges doesn't affect it)
Ness: 51% both sides (89% on ledges)
Captain Falcon: 71% both sides (146% on ledges)
Villager: 76% both sides (118% on ledges)
Olimar: 62% both sides (Ledges doesn't affect it)
Wii Fit Trainer: 83% both sides (134% on ledges)


Another new possible discovery? I was practicing it on Fox and I noticed that at 55% is when the combo stops working, but I like to do it multiple times just to make sure and I accidentally pummeled once putting him at 56% and the combo worked and then at 57% and it worked but not past that. I'm not sure what this means cause when I put the bot at 56% / 57% the combo wouldn't work but putting them to 55% and pummeling made the combo work. I don't want to go back and redo all the characters for this but something interesting to know.

EDIT: Tested this on Charizard for the hell of it, pummeling does nothing. Hmm....
EDIT 2: Will finish the rest later today, I just have the bottom row to do this on.
 
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Drippy

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Finally finished the complete list and this took me forever. I practiced this on Lvl 7 CPUs in training mode so no rage accounted for and I'm not sure if CPUs use directional influence or not so can't say must for that. I actually only put the CPUs on "Attack"half way through until I stopped doing it to save time because I realized that it didn't really change my results and worked regardless if it was on "Stop" or "Attack". To help you understand the list, basically the reason why it says both sides is because for some character such as Mario, if Lucas is on the left side of the character (thus facing right) then it would work say 2% higher then compared if he was on the right side of the character (facing left). For the ledges, you have to stand all the way on the end of the ledge and for some reason that greatly affects as to what percents this combo can keep working. It could be useless and it could be really useful, I'm not sure but I thought it'd be something I would just add in for fun anyways. I didn't test this with customs so I'm not sure how it'd work for Hyper Monado Arts Shulk or different weight Mii Fighters. I just used Default Mii Fighters (their size when you make them in the Mii Maker) because most often only Default Mii Fighters are enabled in a non-custom environment. You guys are free to test it out on different size Miis or Hyper Monado Arts to add onto the list but I'm to lazy to do it as this list took forever.

Working Percents: Down Throw -> Up Tilt
Mario: 26% (facing right), 24% (facing left). (97% on left ledge, 96% on right ledge)
Luigi: 14% (facing right), 13% (facing left). (97% on left ledge, 96% on right ledge)
Peach: 86% both sides (126% on ledges)
Bowser: 85% facing right, 87% facing left. (Ledge doesn't affect it)
Yoshi: 78% both sides (116% on ledges)
Rosalina: 52% both sides (111% on ledges)
Bowser Jr: Doesn't work at any percent (112% on ledges)
Wario: 45% on both sides (71% on ledges)
Donkey Kong: 62% both sides (139% on ledges)
Diddy Kong: 62% both sides (Ledge doesn't affect it)
Game & Watch: 51% both sides (81% on ledges)
Little Mac: 64% both sides (122% on sides)
Link: 68% both sides (135% on ledges)
Zelda: 78% both sides (115% on ledges)
Sheik: 63% both sides (131% on ledges and kills)
Ganondorf: 3% both sides (25% on ledges)
Toon Link: 66% both sides (98% on ledges)
Samus: 131% both sides (174% on ledges and kills)
Zero Suit Samus: 22% both sides (Ledge doesn't affect it)
Pit: 74% both sides (136% on ledges)
Palutena: 73% both sides (116% on ledges)
Marth: 99% both sides (144% on ledges and kills)
Ike: 49% both sides (146% on ledges)
Robin: 108% both sides (155% on ledges)
Duck Hunt Duo: 54% (facing right), 55% (facing left). (90% on ledges)
Kirby: 32% (facing right), 33% (facing left). (Ledges doesn't affect it)
King Dedede: 66% both sides (170% on ledges and kills)
Metaknight: 73% both sides (106% on ledges)
Fox: 55% both sides (107% on ledges)
Falco: 67% both sides (99% on ledges)
Pikachu: 65% both sides (84% on ledges)
Charizard: 103% both sides (Ledges doesn't affect it)
Lucario: 41% both sides (92% on ledges)
Jigglypuff: 35% both sides (Ledges doesn't affect it)
Greninja: 81% (facing right), 80% (facing left). (142% left ledge, 143% right ledge and kills)
R.O.B.: 101% both sides (Ledges doesn't affect it)
Ness: 51% both sides (89% on ledges)
Captain Falcon: 71% both sides (146% on ledges)
Villager: 76% both sides (118% on ledges)
Olimar: 62% both sides (Ledges doesn't affect it)
Wii Fit Trainer: 83% both sides (134% on ledges)
Shulk: 55% both sides (140% on ledges)
Jump Monado Shulk: 106% both sides (181% on ledges)
Shield Monado Shulk: 117% both sides (194% on ledges)
Smash Monado Shulk: 26% both sides (104% on ledges)
Dr.Mario: 26% (facing right), 24% (facing left). (97% left ledge, 96% right ledge)
Dark Pit: 74% both sides (136% on ledges)
Lucina: 98% both sides (142% on ledges)
Pac-Man: 49% (facing right), 50% (facing left). (79% on ledges)
Mega Man: 70% (facing right), 68% (facing left). (118% on ledges)
Sonic: 30% both sides (Ledges doesn't affect anything)
Mewtwo: 51% both sides (88% on ledges)
Lucas: 51% both sides (89% on ledges)
Roy: 102% both sides (148% on ledges)
Ryu: 62% (facing right), 59% (facing left). (144% on ledges)
Default Mii Fighters: 49% both sides (99% on ledges)
 

Masque

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Has anyone posted Lucas's frame data yet? Just in case, I'll post what someone shared in the JP Lucas Skype group.
  • Jab - Frame 2 (19 frames)
  • Ftilt - Frame 7 (25 frames)
  • Utilt - Frame 4 (36 frames)
  • Dtilt - Frame 3 (15 frames)
  • Fsmash - Frame 14 (46 frames)
  • Usmash - Frame 28 (98 frames)
  • Dsmash - Frame 20 (63 frames)
  • Nair - Frame 7 (44 frames)
  • Fair - Frame 9 (41 frames)
  • Bair - Frame 15 (39 frames)
  • Uair - Frame 7 (45 frames)
  • Dair - Frame 10 (56 frames)
  • Zair - Frame 9 (59 frames)
  • Dash Attack - Frame 15 (38 frames)
  • PK Freeze - Frame 40 (66 frames)
  • PK Fire - Frame 21 (52 frames)
  • PSI Magnet - Frame 17 (35 frames)
  • Grab - Frame 12 (55 frames)
  • Dash Grab - Frame 15 (65 frames)
  • Pivot Grab - Frame 12 (65 frames)
 

Drippy

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Has anyone posted Lucas's frame data yet? Just in case, I'll post what someone shared in the JP Lucas Skype group.
  • Jab - Frame 2 (19 frames)
  • Ftilt - Frame 7 (25 frames)
  • Utilt - Frame 4 (36 frames)
  • Dtilt - Frame 3 (15 frames)
  • Fsmash - Frame 14 (46 frames)
  • Usmash - Frame 28 (98 frames)
  • Dsmash - Frame 20 (63 frames)
  • Nair - Frame 7 (44 frames)
  • Fair - Frame 9 (41 frames)
  • Bair - Frame 15 (39 frames)
  • Uair - Frame 7 (45 frames)
  • Dair - Frame 10 (56 frames)
  • Zair - Frame 9 (59 frames)
  • Dash Attack - Frame 15 (38 frames)
  • PK Freeze - Frame 40 (66 frames)
  • PK Fire - Frame 21 (52 frames)
  • PSI Magnet - Frame 17 (35 frames)
  • Grab - Frame 12 (55 frames)
  • Dash Grab - Frame 15 (65 frames)
  • Pivot Grab - Frame 12 (65 frames)
Japanese Skype Group? Also if this is accurate than that'd be really hype.
 

Masque

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Japanese Skype Group? Also if this is accurate than that'd be really hype.
I'm living in JP, and the players here also have Skype groups for each of the various characters. I have no way to verify frame data, so I can't say it's 100% accurate, but no one in the group has contested the list thus far. :)
 

Drippy

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I'm living in JP, and the players here also have Skype groups for each of the various characters. I have no way to verify frame data, so I can't say it's 100% accurate, but no one in the group has contested the list thus far. :)
Alright cool, thanks for this!
 

ephOE

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Dtilt > grab seems to work fairly well on most of the cast at lower/mid %, as long as the other character doesn't have a jab that beats Lucas's Dtilt in terms of frame data (like Lucas's own jab). Jab 1 > Jab 2 > Dtilt (possibly multiple) > grab seems like a pretty decent mixup, and of course leads to pummels and follow ups from d throw.

Nair > grab is less reliable and much less safe, but definitely possible if you're attentive to how the other player reacts to FF Nair.
 
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When is a good time to use DSmash? I hear good things about it but I never use it.

Offstage Magnet is stupidly lethal. Literally every time I have landed it when my opponent is over 100% offstage, they have died. Not to mention how it causes you to stall in the air and places the hitbox in front of you, making it easier to land and harder to counter. Super stylish, too.
Any tips for this also? I've tried this a couple of times but I really haven't been able to land it yet. I think I might be a bit too aggressive with it.
 

PKPenguin

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Generally I've landed them by hitting them offstage with a fairly low endlag move like f-smash, then chasing them offstage and hitting them while they're still trying to get rid of the momentum/begin recovering. Really it just boils down to being able to position yourself in the air so the opponent is right in front of you. From there just pop a magnet, the air stall makes it so that your positioning won't get messed up once you have it.
 

Masque

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The key with PSI Magnet is to remember the hitbox only activates once you release B, so timing is key. I managed a nice stage spike when my friend's Ryu tried to chase me down as I was recovering from offstage. :)
 

PKBeam

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Okay so I'm going to finish up the list today but I found another weird thing so I'm posting this early, also anyone know why my pummel sometimes does 2% instead of 1%? Is this the rhythm pummeling or are pummels naturally like this?
The pummel is either stale or does a decimal percentage e.g 1.5%
 

Drippy

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The pummel is either stale or does a decimal percentage e.g 1.5%
I don't believe that's the case but trying this out with other characters 1% pummels it's just random. Like what happens when I tested it with Lucas is I did x4 1% pummels in a row and then a 2%, I retried it and it went 1% -> 2% > 1%. I then went to try this on Kirby cause he has a 1% pummel and I did a 1% pummel and then a 2% pummel, when I went to try it again I did a 2% pummel. I read that rhythm pummeling was a myth in Brawl (so not sure if it's real) but I wonder why the pummels function this way cause if it was stale then wouldn't it be 2% then 1% after a few pummels thus it stales and if it was a decimal percentage then why does it sometimes do a 2% pummel or 1% pummel within the first pummel or it does x3 1% pummel to 2% (which lead me to believe it was 1.3% per) but sometimes it just goes from 1% to 2%.
 

<Pride>

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Newfound Lucas main here! Never played Brawl competetively, but I love Lucas.

Has anyone tried to chain some D-tilts in between Jabs?
Like this: D-tilt > Jab 1 > D-tilt > Jab 1 > Jab 2 > D-tilt > Jab 1 > Jab 2 > Jab 3.

I might have managed to do something like this on an online 3DS battle. Although it was only a D-tilt before Jabs and after Jab 2. I think this is a great combo extender and can lead to some free damage, try it out!
 

Lwin

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I often find myself having trouble covering my opponents landings with Lucas. In my experience he also has pretty unreliable OOS options. I feel like the devs gave Lucas a godly throw/combo game but went to town on his frame data in this game. Also the data on his hitboxes are something strange to behold. His nair has about as much range as Wario's and that ftilt reminds me of smash 4 MK.
 

LordWilliam1234

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Could anyone explain how to read this Frame data chart? Blockfreeze, Blockfreeze (Self), Blockstun, Adv. (Drop) and Adv. (OOS).
Blockfreeze is how much time your opponent is frozen when you hit their shield. Blockfreeze (self) is how much time your character is frozen when you hit the opponent's shield (these two values sometimes vary, sometimes you are stuck in place for longer than your opponent, sometimes less, but it's usually equal). Blockstun is how long your opponent is forced to stay in their shield after blocking a hit (this is separate from block freeze). Block advantage OOS (out of shield) is how much faster (or slower) your opponent recovers from shield than you recovery from your own move. So for Lucas' jab 1, your opponent recovers from blocking 16 frames before you recover from jab 1's ending lag. Block advantage (drop) is similar but it takes the time required to drop your shield into account.

Hope this helps!
 

MrWhYYZ

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Blockfreeze is how much time your opponent is frozen when you hit their shield. Blockfreeze (self) is how much time your character is frozen when you hit the opponent's shield (these two values sometimes vary, sometimes you are stuck in place for longer than your opponent, sometimes less, but it's usually equal). Blockstun is how long your opponent is forced to stay in their shield after blocking a hit (this is separate from block freeze). Block advantage OOS (out of shield) is how much faster (or slower) your opponent recovers from shield than you recovery from your own move. So for Lucas' jab 1, your opponent recovers from blocking 16 frames before you recover from jab 1's ending lag. Block advantage (drop) is similar but it takes the time required to drop your shield into account.

Hope this helps!
So when for example you use U-air on someone's shield which is (0/-8) and that afterwards do a 2frame jab then either they drop shield and are at 0 meaning that they get frametrapped if they don't have a 1/2-frame move or that have to do a OOS of 10 frame.
OOS jumping adds frames right? Because then z-air, jab and u-air jab is a extremely viable shield pressure tool.
 

LordWilliam1234

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So when for example you use U-air on someone's shield which is (0/-8) and that afterwards do a 2frame jab then either they drop shield and are at 0 meaning that they get frametrapped if they don't have a 1/2-frame move or that have to do a OOS of 10 frame.
OOS jumping adds frames right? Because then z-air, jab and u-air jab is a extremely viable shield pressure tool.
U-air jab could be viable as a cross-up (since if you land in front they just shield grab and you get punished if they have a fast enough grab), but keep in mind that for the air moves it assumes you connect as low to the ground as possible. So you get less advantage the higher you are when you connect with the move.

And yeah, if you OOS jump, you go through pre-jump (or jumpsquat I think is the Smash term?) frames first.
 

JSConrad45

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I can't figure out what this dtilt is for. Every time I hit someone with, I get hit right afterward, whether I try to dtilt again or start jabbing. It seems to have almost no hitstun, and it apparently doesn't trip anymore. Anyone figured out how to use it?
 

ephOE

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I can't figure out what this dtilt is for. Every time I hit someone with, I get hit right afterward, whether I try to dtilt again or start jabbing. It seems to have almost no hitstun, and it apparently doesn't trip anymore. Anyone figured out how to use it?
It can apply shield pressure - especially when coupled with jab cancels, gimp opponents that don't sweetspot the ledge or hit them during the 1 frame, combo into itself, and set up a grab.
 

JSConrad45

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It doesn't combo into itself, though. People can jump out or jab out after getting hit by it. Sometimes they don't, but that's either because they have a slow jab, or they don't know that they can, or they just don't react fast enough.

I noticed while clearing Classic and All-Star that a dtilt on shield gave me a free grab if I did it immediately, but I don't know yet if that works on humans.

Edit: according to @ LordWilliam1234 LordWilliam1234 above dtilt is -7 on shield and grab takes 12 frames, so apparently the latter won't work on humans either.
 
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JosePollo

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When is a good time to use DSmash? I hear good things about it.
If you time it correctly you can hit characters before they ledge snap. The third hit of down smash extends far enough under the ledge that you can get some nice gimps, though it does require really good timing. Otherwise it's best used to punish spot dodges, though it's still a pretty big commitment so you're better off using something else.
 
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If you time it correctly you can hit characters before they ledge snap. The third hit of down smash extends far enough under the ledge that you can get some nice gimps, though it does require really good timing. Otherwise it's best used to punish spot dodges, though it's still a pretty big commitment so you're better of using something else.
Also worth noting that it will only ever hit once, when one hit lands the rest of the hitboxes become null and void for the one who was hit.

I'm now positive the PK Fire bolt has a hurtbox, I targeted it with Palutena's Autoreticule.
 

Patriot Duck

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Strangely, dthrow > jab is a true combo on some characters when the dthrow is used at the very edge of the stage.
 
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PKBeam

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i believe 1-5, as that was its invincibility in brawl and prerelease smash 4.
it's a really short window but you can definitely tank some moves with it.
 

Agent Emerald

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So I found out this may thing with nair in that you can throw it at stuff like Pikachu's Quick Attack and Sonic's spin dash and it'll beat out those attacks
 

Login_Sinker

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I had a thought for a way to apply pressure today. If you land into someone's shield with a Zair, and then immediately jab, it beats out any options to stop it for some characters with slow OoS options (like Samus). It seems like it could be a good mix up.
 
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