PKBeam
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2013
- Messages
- 1,819
- Location
- Wyong, NSW, Australia
- NNID
- PKBeam64
- Switch FC
- SW 0386 4264 7224
Lucas Moveset Discussion:
Talk about Lucas' PSI and attacks.
From the trailer, we can see a lot of Lucas' moveset. I'm going to try to do a detailed analysis with what we know.
Frame data is from counting the frames in the video and multiplying by 2. I have allowed a 1 frame leeway because of the movie's 29fps. Please do not take this frame data as exact, there might be hidden IASA frames at any point in the move.
So now that we have 3/4 of his moveset, we can see that Lucas has stayed the same in many ways. Only a few moves were changed significantly framewise (we don't know knockback values yet at this stage). The animations are aesthetically similar to Brawl's.
The moves NOT shown off - Dsmash, Dair, Dash Attack, Uair and his other throws - could also be the same - or they might be drastically different (I'm looking at Dsmash, Dash Attack and Dair especially when I say this).
* DTHROW DOESN'T BURY ITS ONLY AN AESTHETIC EFFECT
EDIT: Also, Lucas is still being worked on and his moves are subject to change.
Frame data is from counting the frames in the video and multiplying by 2. I have allowed a 1 frame leeway because of the movie's 29fps. Please do not take this frame data as exact, there might be hidden IASA frames at any point in the move.
- Jab
Good ol' jab. The frame increase from Brawl to 4 can't be relied upon for comparison (input variation), aside from the startup time, which appears to have advanced one frame.
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In Brawl - Hits on - 2, 10, 23
Smash 4 - Hits on - 3/4, 15/16, 29/30
Good ol' jab. The frame increase from Brawl to 4 can't be relied upon for comparison (input variation), aside from the startup time, which appears to have advanced one frame.
In Brawl - Hits on - 2, 10, 23
Duration - 49
Duration - 53+
- Ftilt
Still a fast, solid, disjointed move. Not much has changed.
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In Brawl - Hits on - 7
Smash 4 - Hits on - 7/8
Still a fast, solid, disjointed move. Not much has changed.
In Brawl - Hits on - 7
Duration - 40
Duration - 39+
- Utilt
Possibly a little bit slower in startup, but we haven't seen the hitboxes on his hands. Still similar to Brawl's. The actual duration in the video is 48 because of hitlag.
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WITHOUT HITLAG
In Brawl - Hits on - 4-7
Smash 4 - Hits on - 7/8
Possibly a little bit slower in startup, but we haven't seen the hitboxes on his hands. Still similar to Brawl's. The actual duration in the video is 48 because of hitlag.
WITHOUT HITLAG
In Brawl - Hits on - 4-7
IASA - 40
IASA - 38
- Dtilt
Hasn't changed much from Brawl, except for a likely three/four frame advance in IASA. Hopefully its disjointed hitbox wasn't shrunk. Can probably trip.
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In Brawl - Hits on - 3
Smash 4 - Hits on - 3
Hasn't changed much from Brawl, except for a likely three/four frame advance in IASA. Hopefully its disjointed hitbox wasn't shrunk. Can probably trip.
In Brawl - Hits on - 3
IASA - 14
IASA - 17/18 (it may actually be earlier than this but it's safe to assume the input was buffered)
- Usmash
This move hasn't changed much from Brawl. Invincibility, startup and endlag are all the same. Vertical range might have been decreased slightly.
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In Brawl - Hits on - 28, 36 ......
Smash 4 - Hits on - 28, 30 .......
This move hasn't changed much from Brawl. Invincibility, startup and endlag are all the same. Vertical range might have been decreased slightly.
In Brawl - Hits on - 28, 36 ......
Invincibility - 1-5
IASA: 100
IASA: 100
Invincibility - 1-5/6
Duration: about 103/104
All PSI sparks disappear on 68 (doesn't necessarily mean the hitbox is gone)
Duration: about 103/104
All PSI sparks disappear on 68 (doesn't necessarily mean the hitbox is gone)
- Fsmash
Although the duration is 14 frames shorter, both iterations' Fsmash now has 48 IASA (may actually be earlier for Smash 4). Smaller range.
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In Brawl - Hits on - 14
Smash 4 - Hits on - 15/16
Although the duration is 14 frames shorter, both iterations' Fsmash now has 48 IASA (may actually be earlier for Smash 4). Smaller range.
In Brawl - Hits on - 14
IASA - 48
Duration - 62
Duration - 62
Duration - 48
- Nair
HUGE hitlag. A little slower in startup and endlag. Maybe a little more knockback, but this cannot be proved. Less hits. Overall, probably a nerf.
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WITH HITLAG
In Brawl - Hits on - 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40
Smash 4 - Hits on - 7/8, 19/20, 31/32, 43/44, 55/56
HUGE hitlag. A little slower in startup and endlag. Maybe a little more knockback, but this cannot be proved. Less hits. Overall, probably a nerf.
WITH HITLAG
In Brawl - Hits on - 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40
Duration - 55
Ending Lag - 15
Ending Lag - 15
Duration - about 90
Ending Lag - about 20 (I can't be sure, there might be hidden IASA frames)
Ending Lag - about 20 (I can't be sure, there might be hidden IASA frames)
- Fair
Its disjointed hitbox is about the same as Brawl's, visually, about his head in size. In Brawl, however, it had a huge hitbox that was taller than his whole body. Let's hope it's the same here. The picture is actually a badly spaced Fair. With proper execution, the hexagon does not touch his foot.
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In Brawl - Hits on - 9
Smash 4 - Hits on - 11/12
It visually appears similar, however there is a slight change in startup time.
Its disjointed hitbox is about the same as Brawl's, visually, about his head in size. In Brawl, however, it had a huge hitbox that was taller than his whole body. Let's hope it's the same here. The picture is actually a badly spaced Fair. With proper execution, the hexagon does not touch his foot.
In Brawl - Hits on - 9
Smash 4 - Hits on - 11/12
It visually appears similar, however there is a slight change in startup time.
- Bair
It's kept its spike. It might have been given IASA, although unlikely. Might have slightly less range.
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In Brawl - Hits on - 15
Smash 4 - Hits on - 15/16
It's kept its spike. It might have been given IASA, although unlikely. Might have slightly less range.
In Brawl - Hits on - 15
IASA: 40
Duration: 42
- Grab
Although the snake does indeed appear to hit first on 13, it took 20 frames to capture Mega Man from that distance. In Brawl, the Rope Snake grabbed at its entire range on the same frame - 13. Possibly more range. Overall, a nerf, unless they decrease endlag.
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In Brawl - Hits on - 13
Smash 4 - Hits on - appears to be 13/14, hits in video on 20
Although the snake does indeed appear to hit first on 13, it took 20 frames to capture Mega Man from that distance. In Brawl, the Rope Snake grabbed at its entire range on the same frame - 13. Possibly more range. Overall, a nerf, unless they decrease endlag.
In Brawl - Hits on - 13
Smash 4 - Hits on - appears to be 13/14, hits in video on 20
- Dthrow
It "buries" the opponent, but it's almost certainly an aesthetic effect. It may have lost kill power from Brawl. In Brawl, Dthrow -> Utilt was guaranteed at low % (0-20), unless certain characters DI'd correctly to avoid it.
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In Brawl - Throws on - 41
Smash 4 - Throws on - 41/42
It "buries" the opponent, but it's almost certainly an aesthetic effect. It may have lost kill power from Brawl. In Brawl, Dthrow -> Utilt was guaranteed at low % (0-20), unless certain characters DI'd correctly to avoid it.
In Brawl - Throws on - 41
Duration - 50
Duration - 47/48 (In the video, Lucas moves on 53/54 but he appears to be in the standing animation prior to jumping, so I'm counting when he first visually reverts to it)
- PKF
The animation of PKF is significantly shorter but whether the IASA is different remains a mystery. PK Fire (Side-B) works similarly as in Brawl. Lucas gets momentum recoil from it, which could mean a wavebounce and possibly the return of Zap Jump.
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After shooting the bolt:
In Brawl - Duration - 60 (IASA: 33)
Smash 4 - Duration - 46 (No idea what the IASA is)
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This is a comparison of PKF from Brawl to Smash 4. It's unreliable because we don't actually know the FULL range of Smash 4 PKF, but it's still something to look at.
The animation of PKF is significantly shorter but whether the IASA is different remains a mystery. PK Fire (Side-B) works similarly as in Brawl. Lucas gets momentum recoil from it, which could mean a wavebounce and possibly the return of Zap Jump.
After shooting the bolt:
In Brawl - Duration - 60 (IASA: 33)
Smash 4 - Duration - 46 (No idea what the IASA is)
This is a comparison of PKF from Brawl to Smash 4. It's unreliable because we don't actually know the FULL range of Smash 4 PKF, but it's still something to look at.
- PKFr
Mostly the same from Brawl, from what we can see. No frame data can be salvaged here.
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Mostly the same from Brawl, from what we can see. No frame data can be salvaged here.
- PKT
It appears to have kept most, if not all of its Brawl properties. Bigger bolt.
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In Brawl - Hits on - 20
Smash 4 - Hits on - 20
- PKT2
It's really hard to tell but I'm pretty sure PKT2 has the same frame data. Maybe a change in distance.
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In Brawl - Hits on - 3, 6, 9 ....... 24, 27, 30
Smash 4 - Hits on - Appears to be the same
It appears to have kept most, if not all of its Brawl properties. Bigger bolt.
In Brawl - Hits on - 20
Smash 4 - Hits on - 20
- PKT2
It's really hard to tell but I'm pretty sure PKT2 has the same frame data. Maybe a change in distance.
In Brawl - Hits on - 3, 6, 9 ....... 24, 27, 30
Smash 4 - Hits on - Appears to be the same
- PSIM
Mostly the same from Brawl. A size upgrade. Keeps its zap. Probably able to magnet cancel a la Ness.
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In Brawl - Magnets on - 11
Smash 4 - Magnets on - 11/12
Mostly the same from Brawl. A size upgrade. Keeps its zap. Probably able to magnet cancel a la Ness.
In Brawl - Magnets on - 11
Smash 4 - Magnets on - 11/12
- Zair
We don't know much about this. Its hurtbox might have been removed and it may have been given a hitbox. Possible range upgrade.
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In Brawl - Shoots on 8
Smash 4 - Shoots on 6
We don't know much about this. Its hurtbox might have been removed and it may have been given a hitbox. Possible range upgrade.
In Brawl - Shoots on 8
Smash 4 - Shoots on 6
Here are some gifs for the main post.
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So now that we have 3/4 of his moveset, we can see that Lucas has stayed the same in many ways. Only a few moves were changed significantly framewise (we don't know knockback values yet at this stage). The animations are aesthetically similar to Brawl's.
The moves NOT shown off - Dsmash, Dair, Dash Attack, Uair and his other throws - could also be the same - or they might be drastically different (I'm looking at Dsmash, Dash Attack and Dair especially when I say this).
* DTHROW DOESN'T BURY ITS ONLY AN AESTHETIC EFFECT
EDIT: Also, Lucas is still being worked on and his moves are subject to change.
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