Data "Chimera Laboratory" - Lucas moveset discussion

[PKBeam]

done.

Also having DSmash be a command smash on the rest of the hits a la Link FSmash like it is in PM would be godlike but it's never gonna happen

this this this
it would make dsmash so much safer
i think it has a small chance of happening though.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

done.

this this this
it would make dsmash so much safer
i think it has a small chance of happening though.

Not only safer but I would imagine you could use it to catch rolls and beat ledge intan more reliably since you'd be able to control the delay between hits. Also ~mindgames son~

 

[kro_]

I don't know how much armor Charizard's Side B has, but Lucas' PK fire went right through it and blew Charizard away

 

[notbenny]

I can't wait for June. I need to play as Lucas again!

 

[Mypantisgone]

I wonder if he'll have Ness's specials as his custom specials...

EDIT: I just remembered that Mewtwo doesn't have custom specials, so until we see if they'll come with an update or not, forget what I said...

I don't know how much armor Charizard's Side B has, but Lucas' PK fire went right through it and blew Charizard away

*Down B now

 

[Drippy]

I just thought I'd ask now but any of you'd guys would be interested in doing a community Lucas guide. I brought this up like last month in the social thread but figured I'd ask here since the social thread isn't really used for competitive discussion. I'm of course going to be helping as well and will be going to the lab right away with Lucas. I already have a pretty big template for the guide that's still a work in progress and I'm using inspiration from other guides in terms of formatting (particularly the Palutena guide).

 

[ilysm]

Well, I had been thinking for a while of doing a beginner's guide for Lucas myself once he came out, but that would be more for beginners starting to get into competitive. An in-depth community guide for Lucas would be really cool. We just need to make sure we give the character some time to develop before we make a definitive guide on his ins and outs.

 

[Drippy]

Well, I had been thinking for a while of doing a beginner's guide for Lucas myself once he came out, but that would be more for beginners starting to get into competitive. An in-depth community guide for Lucas would be really cool. We just need to make sure we give the character some time to develop before we make a definitive guide on his ins and outs.

Definitely, I don't expect the guide to be completed on the first day or even the first month and I'll be heavily editing it over time.

EDIT: I also want to catch the spirit of the Mother series too so I'm going to mix in some silly humor into the guide as well as making it serious. I'm still debating a lot of things such as if I should include terms such as short hopping / teching / etc. to help beginners understand the game or doing things such as match-ups but since we're going to have a match-up thread I figured I could just link the thread while specifically making a section of the guide that focuses on beating play-styles such as defensive / aggressive / spammy / etc. instead of it being specific to a character.

 

[notbenny]

I'm pretty sure that they changed the meteor hitbox on his back air. There's less PSI graphics and just one big one around his foot. Maybe a better meteor?

 

[PKBeam]

actually, it does look like they nerfed its range, which could be a good or a bad thing.

 

[meleebrawler]

I get the feeling nair will have lower max damage potential than Brawl but linking better will make it more consistent
as a trade-off.

 

[DashGarnett]

Nair's knockback is buffed while it only hitting 5 times now i believe this would mean the damage stays the same, Its dependant on the ratio of how much it did in brawl. With it only hitting 5 times they might bring the damage up. However I do see a buff in the knockback.

 

[meleebrawler]

Nair's knockback is buffed while it only hitting 5 times now i believe this would mean the damage stays the same, Its dependant on the ratio of how much it did in brawl. With it only hitting 5 times they might bring the damage up. However I do see a buff in the knockback.

Considering what they did with Mewtwo's nair on top of a lot of other damage nerfs I doubt it. And Lucas's
damage potential in the air was never really his strong suit.

 

[PKBeam]

I think Nair's knockback either stayed the same or was increased slightly. It's been a long time since I played Brawl but I could see it launching that far at 20%.

Considering what they did with Mewtwo's nair on top of a lot of other damage nerfs I doubt it. And Lucas's
damage potential in the air was never really his strong suit.

Lucas' damage output, especially in the air, was one of his key advantages in Brawl and it's the reason he's in lower mid and not in F Tier.

 

[notbenny]

Yeah. Lucas had a really strong air game in brawl. I hope that his aerial damage isn't nerfed, otherwise, it wouldn't be very good for him in general.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think Nair's knockback either stayed the same or was increased slightly. It's been a long time since I played Brawl but I could see it launching that far at 20%.

Lucas' damage output, especially in the air, was one of his key advantages in Brawl and it's the reason he's in lower mid and not in F Tier.

The moves themselves don't deal that much damage, they're just pretty fast and can easily string several hits.
Nair and dair could do a lot but it was really hard getting them to land all their hits. If they get any easier to land perfectly a damage
nerf doesn't seem unlikely.

He's fairly good at raising damage in the air for sure, but he's no Ness.

 

[PKBeam]

The moves themselves don't deal that much damage, they're just pretty fast and can easily string several hits.
Nair and dair could do a lot but it was really hard getting them to land all their hits. If they get any easier to land perfectly a damage
nerf doesn't seem unlikely.

He's fairly good at raising damage in the air for sure, but he's no Ness.

Nair is frame 5, does 17%, easily connects 6 hits or more (that's at least 12%) unless you purposefully cancel it early, few characters in the game have a viable response to Nair shield pressure (Nair -> Jab). It also strings into his other moves like Nair, Dair or Jab (10%).

Dair is frame 4, does 20%, you're pretty much guaranteed to land at least 3 hits, can be footstooled into itself at least three times (that's a little under 60% total), strings into Nair, Jab etc. at earlier %s, and at higher percents sets up into a Dtilt lock -> Usmash/Fsmash kill which works on Bowser starting at about 105% and Jigglypuff at 60%.

It's honestly not that hard to connect all the hitboxes. Just look at PF, Mekos or the japanese Lucases. I did it all the time against other people on WiFi, and even if you miss a few you still get a good damage output.

Regardless of whatever optimizations they do with Nair/Dair's hitboxes, Lucas will be getting nerfed in damage output, it's not a good idea letting him run around with 40% comboes.

 

[DashGarnett]

Melee

The moves themselves don't deal that much damage, they're just pretty fast and can easily string several hits.
Nair and dair could do a lot but it was really hard getting them to land all their hits. If they get any easier to land perfectly a damage
nerf doesn't seem unlikely.

He's fairly good at raising damage in the air for sure, but he's no Ness.

MeleeBrawler is right Lucas's Damage output in the air was low but it was the low knockback and ability to string together multiple aerials that made him have a good damage output and be mid tier.

 

[PKBeam]

are you saying his damage output is good, low or both?
17% and 20% by themselves are not a low damage output. a low damage output would be something under 10%.

 

[meleebrawler]

are you saying his damage output is good, low or both?
17% and 20% by themselves are not a low damage output. a low damage output would be something under 10%.

Dair is a situational move at best, getting to hit at all is a challenge, let alone all the hits, plus there's the landing lag.
Nair isn't bad, but when you're juggling someone instead of applying platform or shield pressure you generally prefer uair
or fair.

Again, I'm not saying Lucas's ability to rack up damage in the air is bad, but compared to the damage he can do off successful
reads and punishes on the ground it kind of pales.

 

[PKBeam]

why are you getting landing lag on dair? you're supposed to use Dair while rising up if you want a lock, or just before you reach the apex of your jump if you want to string it into something. it's not one of his easier moves to land but the reward for doing so makes it worth a shot.

fair doesn't juggle well. it's a good spacing tool, it leads into jab well, kills at high % on lights, it can very rarely setup Dtilt locks, but it's not a good juggle tool.
uair is, though, and it does make up the foundation of his juggling game.

a substantial chunk of lucas' damage is really going to come from nairing into stuff. it's completely safe on block and it just strings so well into his other stuff. most of the other stuff would be his ground game though.

also, i'm just saying Lucas' aerial damage racking is good. he does have a great ground game but the two complement each other.

 

[DashGarnett]

are you saying his damage output is good, low or both?
17% and 20% by themselves are not a low damage output. a low damage output would be something under 10%.

I'm saying compared to brawl his damage out put might have been decreased but given more knock back

 

[PKBeam]

that would be a double nerf. not really what you'd want to do for a mid tier.
just one of those would be enough.

 

[SpandexBullets]

D-Smash was just shown off on the official website: http://www.smashbros.com/sp/us/characters/lucas.html#
As well as that, it appears his Up B has different graphics to Ness's custom 2, which is nice.

D-smash is probably the same two-hit (it's still great!)
I am very much wondering about dash attack though...combo starter? Kill move ? Damage + spacing move?

 

[notbenny]

D-smash is probably the same two-hit (it's still great!)

D-smash was a 3 hit, wasn't it.?

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

D-smash was a 3 hit, wasn't it.?

Yeah its 3 hits.

 

[ilysm]

So, a worrying thought has been eating at me for a while. It's unfounded, and very likely won't be a problem, but...with the increased falling speed in this game, do you think that SHPKF will be nerfed indirectly? AFAIK we don't have frame data for his short hop (or indeed his jump hight/fall speed), so this is all speculation of course. But I wanted to get an opinion from more technical players than I.

 

[PKBeam]

fall speed will only impact the time from when he shoots the PKF to when he lands on the ground. since this is a small window, any reasonable changes to his fall speed shouldn't really affect it.

SH height plays a bigger role in this. if it's shorter, SHPKF will have a smaller sliding distance. Lucas in Brawl did have a very low SH, and making his SH lower will be a tradeoff - SHPKF will be nerfed a bit but he'll be better overall and SH Uair and maybe SH Nair will benefit.

at worst it might be a minor problem, so i wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Kodystri]

Wait on Lucas's Up Smash, it has invincibility at start up or during the hitting animation?

 

[PKBeam]

the first 5 frames of startup, that is, from the very frame you input an up smash to 4 frames afterwards.

you could theoretically run into any attack that doesn't have multiple hitboxes and usmash it, since Usmash comes out on 26.

i'm pretty sure that invincible characters don't suffer hitlag from other hitboxes, so that could be a small to medium frame advantage depending on the hitlag multiplier,

 

[Kodystri]

Hm Interesting. I am definitely going to lab this. This seems extremely good.

 

[Indigo Jeans]

Does @ PKBeam have a capture card? If not I'd love to do something like what I did for Mewtwo, for Lucas.

http://smashboards.com/threads/jungles-of-guyana-mewtwo-frame-hitbox-data.398932/

 

[PKBeam]

i don't have a capture card, so feel free to do it.
i'm doing frame data for Ness when the patch comes out, so i'll be pretty busy anyway.

 

[PKEarthbound]

Hey, I've already posted about this in the social thread, but here's a link to gameplay footage of sunflower baby. It's been taken down from the original source so everyone's kind of in a fit about it. The player just mostly fools around with his movesets, but there are some things that really piqued my interest. Hope it helps!
http://gematsu.com/2015/06/over-hour-super-smash-bros-ryu-roy-lucas-gameplay

 

[Foster]

THE PATCH IS OUT. here's what I've seen at first glance:
HIS SPECIALS FEEL THE SAME AS BRAWL. At least in comparison to Ness's "lucas" customs. Granted, it's been a really long time but I was so worried we were getting the Ness customs, but thankfully not.
Neutral B: PK Freeze is fast as hell unlike the ness custom.
Forward B: The momentum properties feel good, making the B reverses good as ever. I haven't been able to do a zap jump though.
Up B: PKT2 DOESN'T GET SHORTENED on contact with another char. It goes so far. Also, he has the same property as Ness in SSB4 where they can immediately PKT again after colliding with a wall so his recovery is AMAZING.
Down B: Forward psi magnet is fast (so much faster than Ness's custom forward magnet omg seriously that depressed me when I used it) and the momentum properties feel awesome, so again, B reversing it feels gooood. Haven't been able to do a magnet pull unfortunately, but I didn't expect it to stay anyways.

 

[no1butmenotu]

I'm not sure if this is mentioned yet, but Lucas' stick can reflect projectiles, just like Ness' bat. Just tested it on a CPU in classic mode. Accidently reflected a fully charged Thorn back to Robin (Ouch!).

 

[kzee]

Was Lucas' airgame improved? I just had a CPU spam Z-air on me 3 times as I tried to approach! DAT snake has insane reach and seemingly little landing lag. It's a great move for spacing and general annoyance.

 

[Arbok_]

I noticed that Lucas' up throw kills jiggs at 115, and kills Bowser at 159, so Lucas has a bit of a kill throw. (tested on FD)

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

His neutral air auto cancels extremely well just like back in brawl. I find that auto cancel nair to fsmash seems EXTREMELY quick and is probably close to a true combo....can't really tell since we don't have the frame data right now though.

I can confirm wavebounce on pk fire feels the same as in brawl but magnet pull is extremely gimmped and I don't believe zap jump is in anymore. Really I don't feel like b-sticking is very viable in this version as opposed to c-stick, but this is entirely my opinion as an avid b-sticker for lucas back in brawl

can confirm lucas can do pkt again after bouncing off of a wall once just like ness.

dthrow combos into up tilt up to pretty high percentages and does more damage than dthrow->nair

dthrow seems to also have enough stun to combo into up airs with a kill range of around 120% for some characters. although the hitbox on up air is fairly small....we call this the "Lu-Ha"

His zair and tether both have AMAZING range and will be great for his neutral game and recovery

pivot grab is bad and more lag at the end of it just like the other pivot tether grabs in this game

bair is easier to land a spike on but still requires some precision.

pk fire has some decent knockback and can kill if landed off stage

bair and fair have sweetspots that can kill fairly decently which is located at the center of the psy-hexagons

His kill potential by itself is lacking but I feel when we figure out more combos and follow ups he will be great.

 

[divade]

Idk what is known but landing nair can combo easily into u-tilt, jab and even F-smash. any other combos known?