Character Rankings List - Post-March 2010

[Nysyarc]

More people use MK and Snake (Moreso MK) because they're the best characters. Not the other way around.

That's a very shallow and unsupported opinion. If you take the total times either Meta Knight or Snake have won tournaments and compare them to the times all other characters have won, it will be less. Their high scores come from excessive placements in the top eight.

Besides, even if they are the 'best' characters, does that mean everyone has to play as them? I don't have respect for people who win tournaments with characters that are overused, and techniques that are overused. It's the few people who have won with the characters ranked 'underused' and 'borderline' that deserve the most credit.

 

[jber4life]

That's a very shallow and unsupported opinion. If you take the total times either Meta Knight or Snake have won tournaments and compare them to the times all other characters have won, it will be less. Their high scores come from excessive placements in the top eight.

Besides, even if they are the 'best' characters, does that mean everyone has to play as them? I don't have respect for people who win tournaments with characters that are overused, and techniques that are overused. It's the few people who have won with the characters ranked 'underused' and 'borderline' that deserve the most credit.

Actually, they do, because usually people like winning money at tournaments. And that is the best way to win tournaments.

 

[Nysyarc]

Actually, they do, because usually people like winning money at tournaments. And that is the best way to win tournaments.

That's only true if at least one person is playing as a 'best' character. But MK and Snake can be beaten and have been beaten, so they aren't the best, just overused.

As proof, you can look at several rankings and compare the ratio of wins to total top eight placements. Meta Knight has 37 wins, and 200 total placements in the top eight. By comparison, Ike has 3 wins and only 9 total placements. You can't brush off 3 wins as a fluke, and 3 out of 9 is a better ratio than 37 out of 200, even if not by much. I think if the underused characters were used more, they would get high win ratios, especially at first because nobody would know how to fight them.

Imagine if someone with a ton of experience started playing as Mario and developed him really well, none of the current 'elite' players would be able to effectively fight him because they would be too used to fighting MKs and Snakes and DDDs and etc...

There is no evidence that MK or Snake are the best characters, only that they are the most overused characters by good players.

 

[Deleted member]

Uhh, once you go to tournaments, you'll understand why mk and snake are winning so much.

Just because theres a few ike players who are better than everyone else at their tournament, doesnt mean MK isnt the best.

 

[da K.I.D.]

The tourney results are the proof that they are the best characters.

Boss already had played and developed mario to a high level but he doesnt win tourneys with him because mario is a bad character

 

[Nysyarc]

I already understand why they win so much. Because players who are good at the game use them. If the same players all started playing as other characters, those characters would win more often. It's a simple concept where the player defines the skill level, not the character.

If you want to base it on characters, then I wouldn't play as DDD because according to the stats he has less than a 10% chance to win a given tournament (56 rankings, only 5 wins). But again, it's the players, not the characters. The players who use DDD and other characters are usually (but not always) inferior to those who use MK and Snake. If MK and Snake won all or most of the tournaments, I would be convinced that they are the 'best'. But they don't. So they aren't.

 

[jber4life]

That's only true if at least one person is playing as a 'best' character. But MK and Snake can be beaten and have been beaten, so they aren't the best, just overused.

As proof, you can look at several rankings and compare the ratio of wins to total top eight placements. Meta Knight has 37 wins, and 200 total placements in the top eight. By comparison, Ike has 3 wins and only 9 total placements. You can't brush off 3 wins as a fluke, and 3 out of 9 is a better ratio than 37 out of 200, even if not by much. I think if the underused characters were used more, they would get high win ratios, especially at first because nobody would know how to fight them.

Imagine if someone with a ton of experience started playing as Mario and developed him really well, none of the current 'elite' players would be able to effectively fight him because they would be too used to fighting MKs and Snakes and DDDs and etc...

There is no evidence that MK or Snake are the best characters, only that they are the most overused characters by good players.

Plus the tourny's that Ike wins are all small. No big tourny's have Ike placement.

 

[Nysyarc]

Ike was a random example because I play as him and thus thought of him first. The way I see it is the bigger the tournament, the more MKs and Snakes to weed out the other characters, so the smaller chance of other characters placing.

I just think it's unfair that if all the good players use the same characters, it drives the new players to also use those characters in order to compete, not because they have to, but because they think they have to. It's a mind game, and MK and Snake are winning it.

 

[da K.I.D.]

I already understand why they win so much. Because players who are good at the game use them. If the same players all started playing as other characters, those characters would win more often. It's a simple concept where the player defines the skill level, not the character.

Most of the best players didnt start off playing MK and snake, they just switched to them later one because they want to win.
M2K used to play DDD but he switched to MK because MK is better and he wants to win
Ally played captain falcon, but he wants to win, so he switched to snake

If you want to base it on characters, then I wouldn't play as DDD because according to the stats he has less than a 10% chance to win a given tournament (56 rankings, only 5 wins).

he has a 10% chance of winning a tourney that he pulls top 8 in. not, he has 10% chance to win a tourney in general. DDD has much more placings than a character like link, because as a better character, DDD has a better chance to make it to the top 8 of a tournament.

But again, it's the players, not the characters. The players who use DDD and other characters are usually (but not always) inferior to those who use MK and Snake. If MK and Snake won all or most of the tournaments, I would be convinced that they are the 'best'. But they don't. So they aren't.

1. the players that use the lower characters are inferior to the people who play the best characters because the best players, after a while gravitated to the best characters because they want to win. those better players started with the worse characters before we knew which ones were good and bad, but once we figured out what characters were the best, the best people started playing them

2. MK and snake do win the most tourneys. they dont win more tourneys than the other 35 characters put together, but both MK and snake win more tourneys than any other individual character.


EDIT
In responce to your last comment,
1. they kind of do have to switch to the better characters to compete. because if you have the best players playing the best characters, what chance do you have if you arent the best and are playing with a worse character.
2. that cycle of people pick up MK and win and than other people pick up MK, and than they do better, and more people play Mk... thats part of the reason why some people want to ban MK from tourneys

 

[ZOM~B]

Most characters have at least one or two excellent players who place well, especially in local tournaments

See:
Reflex's Pokemon Trainer
BigLou's Luigi
Boss's Mario

However "good" characters have this kind of representation too:
M2k's MK
Dojo's MK
ETC ETC

I could list like 10+ MKs who place high at every single tournament they attend.

People try to copy Reflex's, and BigLou's strategies and such and FAIL, that's why there aren't so many good players for those characters. I'm sure PT has PLENTY of interest. I know a number of people who would love to play PT, but it doesn't work for them.

When you pit a player "copying" M2K against a player "copying" Reflex, the player copying M2K wins because MK is a better character. Now if you were to pit Reflex against a scrubby MK, Reflex would win, because Reflex is a better player.

Just because he wins, doesn't mean PT is better than MK.

Think about this: so many MKs place top 8 and win and such. But only a few Ikes place top 8/win. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER IKES? They don't even place top 8. Because they're losing to the scrubby MKs who end up placing top 8 and losing to the good players.

 

[Nysyarc]

This is useless, nobody thinks outside the box these days.

Most of the best players didnt start off playing MK and snake, they just switched to them later one because they want to win.

That's why it's sad. Instead of continuing to improve their game and striving to win with their favorite characters, they took the easy way out and did what everyone else did. When it comes down to every tournament being constant match-ups between MK and Snake and eventually just MK, you'll understand what I'm getting at. Brawl is a very large game, and all the good players are forcing everyone else to enjoy only a small part of it just so they can earn some cash. That's what jobs are for.

 

[da K.I.D.]

That's why it's sad. Instead of continuing to improve their game and striving to win with their favorite characters, they took the easy way out and did what everyone else did. When it comes down to every tournament being constant match-ups between MK and Snake and eventually just MK, you'll understand what I'm getting at. Brawl is a very large game, and all the good players are forcing everyone else to enjoy only a small part of it just so they can earn some cash. That's what jobs are for.

This part at least, I can agree with.

but some people see smash as their jobs, and will do just about anything to get that money.
Is that a silly pointless way to make money?

thats not for me to say.

but what i will say is this

I already watch tourneys where the last 45 min to an hour is straight MK dittoes. but the best characters are always going to do the best. and theres not much you can do about it if the characters arent balenced.

But you can ban MK...

 

[Deleted member]

Its funny, most of the people responding to you play low tier (i.e not good) characters.
One, you are right that it would be nice if there was more diversity, but people like winning.

Secondly, good players arent doing anything. Most people play for fun, cuz its a game. Winning, not necesarily cuz of cash, is fun for many people. I play yoshi and am one of the most successful yoshis, and i enjoy playing yoshi cuz hes fun and i like him.
But if people have more fun playing better characters, good for them.

You really need to go to a tournament to understand what goes on.

 

[Shaya]

nysyarc, how old are you? I presume young because you're VERY VERY narrow minded.

Meta Knight is the best character.
Meta knight has advantageous match ups with everyone in the game (arguable, whatever) with everyone but himself.
Match up ratios are very important in higher level play. Even if one player is superior to another, if they're up against a ratio that's even 40:60, they're likely to lose to a HIGH LEVEL PLAYER.

And because that train of thought is happening, it continues on. It's the natural progression of a fighting game in relation to tiers. It happens in every competitive gaming environment.

Trying to argue 'natural progression' is like saying
"Oh it's stupid people get old and die, if they just kept thinking they were young, they'd live forever"
people = players
old and die = playing meta knight
thinking young = using low tiers
live forever = not going to happen.

 

[da K.I.D.]

Its funny, most of the people responding to you play low tier (i.e not good) characters.
One, you are right that it would be nice if there was more diversity, but people like winning.

Secondly, good players arent doing anything. Most people play for fun, cuz its a game. Winning, not necesarily cuz of cash, is fun for many people. I play yoshi and am one of the most successful yoshis, and i enjoy playing yoshi cuz hes fun and i like him.
But if people have more fun playing better characters, good for them.

You really need to go to a tournament to understand what goes on.

i agree with this as welll

 

[Zankoku]

That's why it's sad. Instead of continuing to improve their game and striving to win with their favorite characters, they took the easy way out and did what everyone else did. When it comes down to every tournament being constant match-ups between MK and Snake and eventually just MK, you'll understand what I'm getting at. Brawl is a very large game, and all the good players are forcing everyone else to enjoy only a small part of it just so they can earn some cash. That's what jobs are for.

lol, you're funny.

 

[Nysyarc]

I'd rather not attend a tournament until something is done about the diversity issue. I've already heard enough about all the regular players who win or place high in every tournament. I imagine it gets very frustrating for people who enter all kinds of tournaments only to be beaten by the same players consistently.

I've read that some tournaments have already banned or considered banning MK. The problem is, if you ban one character, another 'best' character emerges that everybody plays as. If the problem really is balance, and it's unbalanced enough that all the good players are too afraid to play as anyone but MK or they'll lose (which I don't buy at all, I also don't buy that all the best players also all happen to like MK), then what Brawl needs is a patch. But I don't that or banning characters is a solution.

Edit: Shaya, don't presume to ask me my age on a forum, director or not.

 

[Zankoku]

I plead the 2nd.

2. If your join date is less than a month away from the last time this list was updated, I'm going to ignore you unless it's a tournament results post.

Sry dude, see you next month.

 

[ZOM~B]

I'd rather not attend a tournament until something is done about the diversity issue.

Why don't you go and win with Ike. Since you think he can. Then everyone will play Ike. Because Ike is a good character.

 

[Nysyarc]

@ Ankoku: Fine with me if you want to be immature about it. Until this post I wasn't typing to you anyways.

@ Everyone else: I do understand how the system of these games works, probably better than most of you. That's why I'm concerned for where Brawl is headed. It's a relatively new game, and in my opinion it is one of the best fighting games currently available. I don't want to see it succumb to the same fate as the others, but if that's inevitable because of people's unwillingness to accept the fact that we determine our own fates, my rants have fallen upon deaf ears (or I guess in this case, blind eyes).

Edit: ZOM~B, at what point did I give any implication that I'm as good a player as the people who win tournaments? I probably wouldn't win a tournament no matter what character I used, but I would stand the best chance as Ike. Besides, everyone playing as Ike defeats the whole purpose. I want balance, not a shift of favor.

 

[ZOM~B]

@ Ankoku: Fine with me if you want to be immature about it. Until this post I wasn't typing to you anyways.

@ Everyone else: I do understand how the system of these games works, probably better than most of you. That's why I'm concerned for where Brawl is headed. It's a relatively new game, and in my opinion it is one of the best fighting games currently available. I don't want to see it succumb to the same fate as the others, but if that's inevitable because of people's unwillingness to accept the fact that we determine our own fates, my rants have fallen upon deaf ears (or I guess in this case, blind eyes).

Not really, people are striving to improve the lower tier's metagames. I personally main ROB. He's mid tier right about now. I also play a pretty solid jigglypuff, ganondorf, etc. I can beat MKs and such, it's just HARD. MK is by far ROB's worst matchup. Even scrub MKs are sometimes troubling (though not nearly as much as main MKs)

Edit: ZOM~B, at what point did I give any implication that I'm as good a player as the people who win tournaments? I probably wouldn't win a tournament no matter what character I used, but I would stand the best chance as Ike.

Oh, I didn't mean it like you implied it. I just mean that everyone has to help develop a character's metagame. And yeah, if you play Ike, you would probably have the best chance winning as him.

I think if you sat down for two weeks and learned MK's metagame though, unless he really didn't suit your style or something, that you'd have a much better chance of winning the tournament.

 

[Nysyarc]

I think if you sat down for two weeks and learned MK's metagame though, unless he really didn't suit your style or something, that you'd have a much better chance of winning the tournament.

That may be true, but considering I just started playing Brawl online a few days ago and otherwise have been only dueling my friends offline, I haven't developed Ike's 'metagame' very much, let alone any other characters'.

I couldn't bring myself to play as a character like MK just to win though, it's not within the range of my moral sense. I would rather work hard if that's the only way to win with a character like Ike.

 

[Yokipi]

Woah, gosh! I rarely see as many personal attacks as this on a KID'S forum, much less between players of a respectable game and even a moderator of a respectable forum, commonly enjoyed by college-students, on a thread made for gameplay improvement in a forum made to improve enjoyment. Would it be possible to cut down a little bit of the sarcasm and implied-or-otherwise insults? While it would be nice to see an ideal community where people can post their own opinions without being flamed, I don't believe that it's possible, so can we at least save a productive thread from this? I think the OP requested minimal spam... And isn't there a MK Ban thread for this anyway?

Edit: And I was feeling bad for being a hypocrite, but, uh, um....

"This is the internet dude... good luck with that"

Heh, I'm not asking for Utopia in here, just an umbrella for a useful thread, to keep the diseases away. Yeah, I realize it's asking for a bit much, but hey, if 5-year-olds have self-restraint on the internet, maybe we could learn from them with time.

On an unrelated note, anyone notice the correlation between character mains and personalities? I found it a very interesting thing to note.

 

[Nysyarc]

Well, as I said in an earlier post, I'm not trying to get MK banned, I'm trying to make people realize that it's their own decision to play as a certain character. Some people like to challenge themselves and to win, sure, but liking to win is different from taking the easiest route to winning. That's needing to win. And I have little respect for people who need to win.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

That's only true if at least one person is playing as a 'best' character. But MK and Snake can be beaten and have been beaten, so they aren't the best, just overused.

I just wanted to draw attention to this statement again. lol.

You really don't know anything at all.

 

[vbdood1337]

Woah, gosh! I rarely see as many personal attacks as this on a KID'S forum, much less between players of a respectable game and even a moderator of a respectable forum, commonly enjoyed by college-students, on a thread made for gameplay improvement in a forum made to improve enjoyment. Would it be possible to cut down a little bit of the sarcasm and implied-or-otherwise insults? While it would be nice to see an ideal community where people can post their own opinions without being flamed, I don't believe that it's possible, so can we at least save a productive thread from this? I think the OP requested minimal spam... And isn't there a MK Ban thread for this anyway?

This is the internet dude... good luck with that

 

[Kinzer]

I want to know why keeping age a secret matters.

It's like giving people your first social security number, it doesn't do them any good if they don't have the other 8.

I'm 16 if anybody out there cares, which they really wouldn't/shouldn't.

 

[Nysyarc]

You really don't know anything at all.

Then I'll bring attention to this statement. Don't generalize and grossly exaggerate in my presence. I'm above that.

And I'm logging off now, I'll be on tomorrow expecting hate messages in my inbox. Good day everyone.

Edit: Kinzer, I don't really care either, but it's well-known forum etiquette, and the fact that a director breached that etiquette is disturbing. I'm 23, and I don't care if people know my age by my own consent, I just don't think people should ask someone else's age.

 

[Kinzer]

Oh, I see, you meant somebody else asking for age.

eh well I don't really care about that too much, but to reply to your previous stuff, all I have to say is:

If Brawl were balanced, we wouldn't have a lack-of diversity problem, but sadly it's undeniable that MK and Snake will dominate, and AFAIK it can't be done but with MK gone we would probably have a more balanced Brawl.

But nobody cares, if you want fun you play casually, play competitive and your first priority is just money.

 

[Nefarious B]

As proof, you can look at several rankings and compare the ratio of wins to total top eight placements. Meta Knight has 37 wins, and 200 total placements in the top eight. By comparison, Ike has 3 wins and only 9 total placements.

So characters like ZSS and Lucario currently on the list have a better chance at getting first place than second place, by your logic.

 

[ZOM~B]

Then I'll bring attention to this statement. Don't generalize and grossly exaggerate in my presence. I'm above that.

And I'm logging off now, I'll be on tomorrow expecting hate messages in my inbox. Good day everyone.

Edit: Kinzer, I don't really care either, but it's well-known forum etiquette, and the fact that a director breached that etiquette is disturbing. I'm 23, and I don't care if people know my age by my own consent, I just don't think people should ask someone else's age.

Oh, I don't doubt that you know things. I mean you know well enough that you probably wouldn't be winning any tournaments (although with effort you think you'd be able to... I don't doubt it on a small scale honestly). But if you look at the results of WHOBO, they go something like this:

1. MK
2. MK
3. MK
4. Lucario/MK (would've been 5th without MK)
5. D3

And the results of WHOBO teams:

1. MK/MK
2. MK/MK
3. MK/G&W

I think MK dominance is pretty well shown...

So characters like ZSS and Lucario currently on the list have a better chance at getting first place than second place, by your logic.

Yay for Snakeee/Lee Martin having a better chance of getting first place than second place. Lol.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

Oh, I don't doubt that you know things. I mean you know well enough that you probably wouldn't be winning any tournaments (although with effort you think you'd be able to... I don't doubt it on a small scale honestly). But if you look at the results of WHOBO, they go something like this:

1. MK
2. MK
3. Wario/DDD/Snake/MK
4. Lucario/MK (would've been 5th without MK)
5. D3

And the results of WHOBO teams:

1. MK/MK
2. MK/Snake
3. MK/G&W

I think MK dominance is pretty well shown...

I fixed your dsf entries

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Then I'll bring attention to this statement. Don't generalize and grossly exaggerate in my presence. I'm above that.

I really don't have to. Everything you say is dripping with ignorance.

It seems unfair that Meta Knight and Snake are the top two only because they are played so often.

There is no evidence that MK or Snake are the best characters, only that they are the most overused characters by good players.

People who want to win are going to be more likely to go to the best characters. You can whine about "evidence," but the overwhelming majority of us have known that MK and Snake are the best characters for more than a year.

But MK and Snake can be beaten and have been beaten, so they aren't the best, just overused.

If MK and Snake won all or most of the tournaments, I would be convinced that they are the 'best'. But they don't. So they aren't.

So the only way a character can be the best is if they're never beaten and win every tournament? I guess there is no best character and never will be, then, durr hurr hurr.

I don't have respect for people who win tournaments with characters that are overused, and techniques that are overused.

It's a simple concept where the player defines the skill level, not the character.

You couldn't come up with better stereotypical scrub comments if you tried.

I do understand how the system of these games works, probably better than most of you.

You've never been to a tourney before and you're trying to tell us you know these things better than we do? Yeah, no.

There's no generalization or exaggeration here. You're just ignorant and deluded by fairy tale concepts.

And by the way, you're not "thinking outside the box." You're just being ********. Go play with your friends and stay out of discussions you clearly don't belong in.

 

[ZOM~B]

I fixed your dsf entries

Thanks. It still conveys the messages of:

1-5. HIGH TIERS NOT IKE

though. I didn't pay enough attention to the placings, obviously.

 

[itsthebigfoot]

^ ike isn't good

at all

 

[B!squick]

Ike is for people who are SICK at spacing.

 

[StrikerX22]

Then I'll bring attention to this statement. Don't generalize and grossly exaggerate in my presence. I'm above that.

And I'm logging off now, I'll be on tomorrow expecting hate messages in my inbox. Good day everyone.

Edit: Kinzer, I don't really care either, but it's well-known forum etiquette, and the fact that a director breached that etiquette is disturbing. I'm 23, and I don't care if people know my age by my own consent, I just don't think people should ask someone else's age.

[unlurk get.]

Let it go. Forums (people) suck sometimes, and you're not entirely right. The game's not brand new, so obviously characters aren't at the top just because of an initial overuse. I'm sure that plays at least a small part in it, yes, but do you really expect Nintendo to make a well-balanced game? Try Starcraft by Blizzard. Or Brawl+ maybe (still need to try that).

Banning Metaknight is absolutely fine if it improves the game. Though sad, there's nothing wrong with that. Sometimes small sacrifices can make the whole much better. Some things must be banned or it destroys the game (for the most part, making it simplistic), which is more sad.

It is true that some high-end people here could act more mature, that's for sure. But others have acted rationally. Don't get your feelings hurt. Any time you passionately stick to one idea (really not even considering a partial influence from another argument,) will result in this type of situation. I'd say your internet age is more like... 16-17.

You're right, they should not be asking age in a valid argument, but I myself am often rather tempted to as verification to the cause of behavior. You don't seem young... you just don't handle forums well... not that I'm great.

My age, 24, if you wonder.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

When you pit a player "copying" M2K against a player "copying" Reflex, the player copying M2K wins because MK is a better character. Now if you were to pit Reflex against a scrubby MK, Reflex would win, because Reflex is a better player.

Just because he wins, doesn't mean PT is better than MK.

Quoted for extreme truth. Pokemon Trainer is not as good as Meta Knight.

Squirtle, however...

Although, what I really wanted to say was, most of the best character representation wasn't at WHOBO; they had other things to do. For the most part, WHOBO shows the Meta Knight tier list, because there weren't a lot of other "best" players to go through.

 

[Nysyarc]

You presume too much. I know you guys may not believe this but I was acting almost that whole time. I wanted to see how adamantly you would defend something that really didn't matter, and that you played little role in yourselves; also because I was tired and bored (it was like 3 to 5 am here and I hadn't slept in 24 hours. The result was quite valiant on your part.

(really not even considering a partial influence from another argument)

I hate people who actually do that. I was considering and agreeing with most of your responses as you gave them, but I hid it and instead tried my best to pick them apart (which was hard, you should try that sometime instead of defending the majority and the obvious, fun debating stuff). That's why I'm not religious, I'm logical, because logic never fails, even where faith does.

Anyways, I'm going to start fresh. I'm Nysyarc, I enjoy debates, but I never hold a grudge because of one, whether someone else does or not. Oh and Col. Stauffenberg, nice sig, Futurama ftw; I remember that episode

I don't care if you guys won't forgive me or whatever. I'm willing to start over and be mature about it. It was just a fun debate, let's put it behind us

 

[bobson]

You presume too much. I know you guys may not believe this but I was acting almost that whole time. I wanted to see how adamantly you would defend something that really didn't matter, and that you played little role in yourselves; also because I was tired and bored (it was like 3 to 5 am here and I hadn't slept in 24 hours. The result was quite valiant on your part.

Let me get this straight. You deliberately assumed a false position and then argued toward it and defended it, just to watch how upset people would get over it?


We're soulmates. Kiss me.