Character Rankings List - Post-March 2010

[gantrain05]

ganon got him top 13, thats more than enough to warrant points for ganon, noobs don't go to tournies, at least not many, so winning your way to the top 13 with ganon isn't just some guy goin in and beating on noobs with ganon, the way you think is if he used MK in only one match, but it was the final match, and he wins and gets 1st place MK should be counted for more than if he used ganon and won for 5 matches? i don't think so.

 

[Zankoku]

I have to wonder if Atomsk chose Ganondorf because he felt he had a better chance of winning with him than Dedede, or something. If not, then what? Just for fun? Or maybe, to play Ganon enough to count on my list? In which case people are actively attempting to exploit my list for their own character preferences. This is not the intent of my list.

 

[gantrain05]

I have to wonder if Atomsk chose Ganondorf because he felt he had a better chance of winning with him than Dedede, or something. If not, then what? Just for fun? Or maybe, to play Ganon enough to count on my list? In which case people are actively attempting to exploit my list for their own character preferences. This is not the intent of my list.

maybe he actually used ganon, because he wanted to use ganon, maybe there is no conspiracy that he's just trying to get him higher on your list, maybe he did it so that nobody would see his DDD before the final rounds, maybe he did it just because he actually thought ganon was a good choice, you can't just decide that because he used ganon it was just a gimick and that it shouldn't be counted, or maybe you should just ask him yourself?

 

[TP]

I have to wonder if Atomsk chose Ganondorf because he felt he had a better chance of winning with him than Dedede, or something. If not, then what? Just for fun? Or maybe, to play Ganon enough to count on my list? In which case people are actively attempting to exploit my list for their own character preferences. This is not the intent of my list.

As I posted, another explanation is that he did not want other people at the tournament watching his DDD before DDD was needed. That means Ganon served a purpose in Atomsk's success.

The most likely explanation, however, is that Ganon is fun to use.

 

[QUIVO]

Everyone's out for ganon

 

[Zankoku]

Using Ganon because he is fun to use = not using him out of necessity = why am I being required to count it as actual character representation?

 

[TP]

Using Ganon because he is fun to use = not using him out of necessity = why am I being required to count it as actual character representation?

I never said it should be counted. I am neutral about it.

 

[gantrain05]

Using Ganon because he is fun to use = not using him out of necessity = why am I being required to count it as actual character representation?

because its a tournament and people play to win, he wouldn't play ganondorf if he knew he was going to lose, your just basing this off of you think ganon sucks, if he used diddy or pikachu instead of ganon you wouldn't hesitate to give them points......

 

[Zankoku]

No, I'd still hesitate. LOL @ Pikachu, now you're just making a baseless dumb accusation based on, I can only presume, the fact that I live in the same state as Anther.

I know Atomsk mains Dedede. I also know that he recently said he gave up Olimar in favor of all Dedede. He was hesitant to count Ganondorf in this very thread because he just used it for matches that he didn't feel would make a difference. Exactly what am I supposed to do, listen to the lot of you saying "Atomsk clearly NEEDED Ganon" over Atomsk saying

Ah, ok then. I'll switch it to just DDD.

Will that satisfy the masses? Well too bad. The masses should already be satisfied with the fact that I'm publicizing the data, I'm not about to skew it to appease them as well.

 

[Ken Neth]

Ankoku wins this argument. Plus it's his thread, so he gets to do what he likes LOL.

 

[Levitas]

Dudes who are arguing with ankoku: He's making arguments that can be generalized to all characters and all players. The fact that you're arguing with him on a lower level is evidence that your arguments aren't as solid as his. So step it up and generalize your arguments (like listing reasons why he should accept characters despite their appearance not mattering in a tournament for the player to place, for example) instead of making ******** claims about him being biased when he's clearly one of (if not THE) few players that gathers ENTIRELY unbiased information in the smash community.

 

[gantrain05]

oh, well im a peach main, i can SAY im going only peach, that doesn't mean it will happen, i also use fox, olimar, luigi, and DK, that means that if i play anything other than peach those don't count? and no i didn't say pikachu cuz you live in the same state as anther, i didn't even know that, it just seems to me your discrediting it just because its ganondorf.

 

[Fogo]

PBT9
$5 Singles
34 entrants
1/31/09
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219219


1: Melee1 (IC/MK)
2: DPHAT (Marth/Falco/GW)
3: Forsaken (DDD)
4: AWE (Ness)
5: ICE (Snake)
5: FOGO (Lucario)
7: SNAP (Peach/Wario/GW)
7: KirbyKid (Pit/Kirby)
9: Jingo Joe (DK)
9: Shuz (Wolf/Kirby)
9: Light (Sheik)
9: bwett (Yoshi)

 

[petre]

because its a tournament and people play to win, he wouldn't play ganondorf if he knew he was going to lose, your just basing this off of you think ganon sucks, if he used diddy or pikachu instead of ganon you wouldn't hesitate to give them points......

yeah, i guess you're right...tournaments are all MKs and the occasional snake. people never play lower characters for fun.

wait a sec...

 

[Zankoku]

Did you rep Fox, Olimar, Luigi, or DK to win a match where your Peach could not/had a lower chance of winning? If you said yes, then add them in. If you said no, I don't even know why you're asking a stupid question that has an obvious answer.

I can 3-stock a scrub with my main, then decide I want to wipe the floor with him and Samus or something. I'm not going to count it. Next match, I can go Peach against an Olimar because, hey, I'm not about to pick Sheik against an Olimar main. I will credit Peach this win because I actually used her with the intent to better my chances of winning.

I will ask. One. More. Time. Did Atomsk choose Ganondorf to better his chances of winning, or because he had a very high chance of winning regardless of whether he went with Ganondorf or Dedede?

 

[gantrain05]

yeah, i guess you're right...tournaments are all MKs and the occasional snake. people never play lower characters for fun.

wait a sec...

wow man, ok let me break it down for you, ALL people don't main top/high tiers in tournaments just because they think it will help them win, there are many different reasons why people play the chars they do, you can't just overgeneralize it and say anyone who plays a low tier char only plays them for fun, your really discrediting alot of mid/low tier mains by saying that, go tell bwett that he only plays yoshi because its fun, tell xyro samus sucks and that he'd easily place higher in a tourney if he used falco, tell all the peach mains to go play MK because peach can only be played for fun not actual competetion.

@ ankoku, me personally, i main a plethora of characters BECAUSE i like to have the option to CP, i can tell you if i were to play an olimar i would always use peach, if im playing a MK i'll usually play DK, if its diddy or fox i'll play luigi, now i can't tell you what was going thru atomsk's mind, but maybe he really did think ganon would give him a better chance, but in reality, if you aren't using the char with the absolute best matchup against your opponent then technically couldn't it be said that you should have been using X instead of Y? im not saying your decision is wrong, its yours to make, but we really don't have an exact answer as to WHY atomsk used ganon in those matches. there isn't a solid reason here, people are just making up assumptions as to why he used ganon. i was never actually saying you should add him to the points, but rather to just not automatically discredit those matches just because you think that DDD would have done better, because in theory DDD will do better against EVERYBODY if your comparing him to ganon.

 

[slikvik]

Atomsk sandbags a lot lol

 

[Zankoku]

not automatically discredit those matches

Oops, except I didn't. Atomsk posted in this thread before I came to my decision. Shut up now.

 

[gantrain05]

Oops, except I didn't. Atomsk posted in this thread before I came to my decision. Shut up now.

if thats the case, then why is there even an argument? none of this would spawn if you weren't so suspicious of everybody trying to "alter" your precious list, why would you even reply if that was the case. you really confuse me ankoku, stop being so freakin bipolar.

 

[Zankoku]

I'm sorry, but when you're done being full of yourself, please notice that there were others besides you arguing random silly points about Ganondorf and Atomsk's usage of him. While I may or may not be bipolar, that ad hominem isn't even valid in this. How about you stop trying to bail out of an argument you lost before you even started it?

 

[gantrain05]

I'm sorry, but when you're done being full of yourself, please notice that there were others besides you arguing random silly points about Ganondorf and Atomsk's usage of him. While I may or may not be bipolar, that ad hominem isn't even valid in this. How about you stop trying to bail out of an argument you lost before you even started it?

first off, how am i being full of myself again? me trying to understand the reasons behind this argument is being full of myself? ok. and im bailing out? if anything its the opposite, i don't really know where u came to that conclusion but whatever man, keep thinking your always in the right and make no mistakes man.

 

[Rohins]

Woah discussing Cirno that's tight. I love her theme.

 

[Zankoku]

keep thinking your always in the right and make no mistakes man.

What a

Spoiler

n Overswarm

thing to say. Maybe I'll have to actually respond to this.

First, let's take a look at your first significant post on the matter.

only problem with that theory is how do you even know your not going to get one of those top tier level players early in the tournament? you can't just say because it wasn't top 8 it doesn't count, that logic is flawed.

Uh, okay, except that that wasn't my logic, it was AZ's interpretation... after which I gave my own criteria.

Here's how important a match is - did Atomsk NEED the character to win, or did he just do it because he had LITTLE, if any chances of losing? If you answer the former, then add the character. If you answer the latter, rethink the significance of using Ganondorf.

I thought maybe this would, you know, end some arguments because Atomsk definitely said "okay, I'll drop Ganon" meaning he had in fact listed Ganon from his playing simply to add the representation of an underused character. Well...

ganon got him top 13, thats more than enough to warrant points for ganon, noobs don't go to tournies, at least not many, so winning your way to the top 13 with ganon isn't just some guy goin in and beating on noobs with ganon, the way you think is if he used MK in only one match, but it was the final match, and he wins and gets 1st place MK should be counted for more than if he used ganon and won for 5 matches? i don't think so.

At this point you're fully stepping into the argument, so I respond in kind.

I have to wonder if Atomsk chose Ganondorf because he felt he had a better chance of winning with him than Dedede, or something. If not, then what? Just for fun? Or maybe, to play Ganon enough to count on my list? In which case people are actively attempting to exploit my list for their own character preferences. This is not the intent of my list.

I really hope you see where I'm coming from with this. People keep avoiding my original question (did Atomsk use Ganondorf out of necessity or to better his chances of winning?) because they can't answer it any better than Atomsk did.

because its a tournament and people play to win, he wouldn't play ganondorf if he knew he was going to lose, your just basing this off of you think ganon sucks, if he used diddy or pikachu instead of ganon you wouldn't hesitate to give them points......

Yes, you really did accuse me of being subjective in my entering of data. I'm practically inclined to just say "**** you too for calling me SUBJECTIVE just because I don't agree with your point of view." But hey, why not, you can add to the fire while you're at it.

there isn't a solid reason here, people are just making up assumptions as to why he used ganon. i was never actually saying you should add him to the points, but rather to just not automatically discredit those matches just because you think that DDD would have done better, because in theory DDD will do better against EVERYBODY if your comparing him to ganon.

You made an assumption based on your inability to look back two or three pages and see that Atomsk already said something about all this. Or maybe you did and decided to keep interpreting his opinion to continue to disagree with me. I don't know. Whatever.

Oops, except I didn't. Atomsk posted in this thread before I came to my decision. Shut up now.

if thats the case, then why is there even an argument? none of this would spawn if you weren't so suspicious of everybody trying to "alter" your precious list, why would you even reply if that was the case. you really confuse me ankoku, stop being so freakin bipolar.

How big of a text do I have to use at this point? How about size 7?
There was an argument because you were arguing.
Can you understand that? Can you? Maybe I have to use pretty colors too, so you can understand that your action of arguing causes an argument?

me trying to understand the reasons behind this argument is being full of myself? ok.

How about claiming there is no argument? Yes, there is no argument if you ignore every post besides your own. Just because you didn't pick a side you could sufficiently support doesn't mean there's no argument, it just means you're out of it.

and im bailing out? if anything its the opposite, i don't really know where u came to that conclusion but whatever man, keep thinking your always in the right and make no mistakes man.

No, you deciding to argue against my points, accusing me of being subjective in my data collection, and then when you clearly lost your side asking "why is there even an argument" is bailing out. Here, maybe I'll try size 7 and colors this time.

Kindly remove yourself from my thread.

Woah discussing Cirno that's tight. I love her theme.

Everyone loves the Cirno theme!

 

[Shaya]

gantrain... What is the list?

The list is an indication of the character trends in brawl that are ABLE to PLACE in the TOP EIGHT of a TOURNAMENT.

It's subjective enough as it is, in hopes of reducing this clutter to the highest degree, things like "you didnt use that character to COUNTER PICK AN UNFAVOURABLE MATCHUP" or "you used that character at the start but -not- in the top 8/finals/higher echelons" is definitive LOGICAL rules that would give the list a better indication of its purpose. If other logic 'rules' came about to make the list an even better reflection, they should be upheld as well.

Many people use metaknight -purely- in pools to make their lives easier against hordes of scrubs, for example. But not at all in the 'finals', as they aren't as effective in using him against actually skilled players.

People will use one character the entire time, but in the losers bracket last match bring out MK and still lose, giving them 7th. Should that person have Metaknight next to their name though? I don't think so.

 

[Afropony]

I have a question.

If someone played as character X for the whole tournament except for the grand final when the other player chose a character that countered character X so that in the 2nd round after losing he decided to play as character Y but lost anyway would character X and character Y get half the points each?

 

[Kinzer]

Ignore anything I said, Koku's gotc'ya covered apparently.

...Seriously, I editted this...

 

[Zankoku]

Probably, since he beat everyone with Character X except for 2nd place. At that point he was expecting to win with Character X, but also had to use Character Y to eke out those final two sets.

EDIT: Misread your post, if he picked Character Y and lost anyway then it wasn't a choice that made a difference, so no.

 

[The Real Inferno]

I have to agree with Ankoku on this one. In my recent results posted, I listed some characters I played that some found questionable. Jigglypuff and Meta Knight were on mine because I used Meta Knight to get me by Ice Climbers, that being the only character I'm really any good against them with, and I pulled out Jigglypuff in the Grand Finals because my Game and Watch failed me game 1. She's more obscure and it bettered my chances (indeed the match was closer).

 

[Justblaze647]

I dont think I've ever heard of a Jiggz out performing a G&W...

food for thought, I guess.

 

[Frown]

Oh no, Yoshi! You're not getting above that E border!

 

[hyperstation]

Wow, seems like a lot happened overnight...

Ankoku,

First of all, please understand I'm NOT trying to sabotage your thread, and I'm certainly not asserting that YOU'RE biased against Ganon. You seem to have taken up a lot of my arguments with AlphaZealot and shouldered them as your own, which is, of course, understandable as this is your thread and you put a lot of work into it. So let's just clear the air, alright?

Look, my thinking is this. In all likelihood, Atomsk could have won those 3 early matches with his DDD. What I take issue with is that we're relying on likelihoods, hypotheticals, and essentially guess-work. The way I see it is that the first three sets that he won - with GANON mind you - got him into the top 13. That's not something to discount, IMO. If Atomsk used, say, Oli to get him to top 13 and then changed to DDD to finish the job, I assume he would post both his Oli and DDD in the results, just like he did with Ganon. The consensus would be "ah, he used his old main and his new main in tandem and got himself into the top 8", and I honestly don't think there would be as much controversy.

I take issue with the idea of "necessity" of choice. Take, for example, the infamous Ally v Anther: Falcon v Sonic grand finals match. Ally did not NECESSARILY choose Falcon to better his chances of winning against Anther. He chose him because he wanted to play him. I see how this is very different than the situation we're discussing because it takes place not only in top 8, but in the grand finals, and thusly should be counted regardless. However, my reasoning for mentioning it is to draw to attention the flaw in the logic of Counter Picks being "necessitated" versus "elected". Atomsk elected to choose Ganon. His choice was not necessitated. In fact, no one who plays Ganon ever chooses him because it's necessary, as he has no advantageous match-ups.

I know we've been encouraged to speak of this issue in broader context, but my issue with this specific case is that we're relying on hearsay and suggestion rather than facts. The facts state: 3 rounds Ganon, 3 rounds DDD. The suggestion that DDD would have taken those matches anyway is anything but fact...it's an assumption.

This is getting TL;DR, but I have one more hypothetical situation to present. A Ganon main uses MK to get into top 13 seating through his first 3 matches. For his last three, he switches to Ganon. He manages to place top 2 beating an MK, a Kirby, and a Wario. In his results does he list only Ganon or Ganon/MK? I think there would be quite an outcry if people knew that he used MK to get to top 13, and then switched to Ganon and posted only Ganon in the results. This would be especially true if in those first 3 matches he played someone like a Sheik or Falco which would be VERY difficult for the Ganon. Now you could say that he SHOULD list MK because that bettered his chances of winning against that sheik or falco. However, this is again only hearsay, and you're relying on collectively subjective intelligence like match-up ratings, tier lists, etc. It's just guess work.

I think it can just get way too murky without some sort of better guide lines than what you have.

PS- keep up the great work, Ankoku. I repeat...I'm NOT trying to sabotage your thread.

 

[Arturito_Burrito]

Did you rep Fox, Olimar, Luigi, or DK to win a match where your Peach could not/had a lower chance of winning? If you said yes, then add them in. If you said no, I don't even know why you're asking a stupid question that has an obvious answer.

I can 3-stock a scrub with my main, then decide I want to wipe the floor with him and Samus or something. I'm not going to count it. Next match, I can go Peach against an Olimar because, hey, I'm not about to pick Sheik against an Olimar main. I will credit Peach this win because I actually used her with the intent to better my chances of winning.

I will ask. One. More. Time. Did Atomsk choose Ganondorf to better his chances of winning, or because he had a very high chance of winning regardless of whether he went with Ganondorf or Dedede?

My friend was actually the guy he fought on the first round and I can tell you he would have won regardless of going ganon or not. He could have used any character and still beat him. This was actually his first tournament ever and he usually just plays wifi.

edit: maybe I should have read past this post lol

 

[meepxzero]

Plank's Apt. Tourney Vol. 2 Results Brawl
$5 entry fee
25+ people
Singles

1: Azen Zagenite (Lucario) ($31.50)
2: meep (Ice Climbers) ($9.00)
3: boss (Mario/Luigi) ($4.50)
4: g-regulate (Snake/Jigglypuff)
5: spec (Zero Suit Samus)
5: omni (Donkey Kong/King Dedede)
7: candy (Snake)
7: lobos (Toon Link)
9: yoster (Metaknight)
9: plank (Metaknight)
9: chu (Kirby)
9: jose (Diddy Kong/King Dedede)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219098

gogo ice climbers

 

[Fogo]

Wow, Yoster with MK? And Chu at 9th?

O_o

 

[AlphaZealot]

This is getting TL;DR, but I have one more hypothetical situation to present. A Ganon main uses MK to get into top 13 seating through his first 3 matches. For his last three, he switches to Ganon. He manages to place top 2 beating an MK, a Kirby, and a Wario. In his results does he list only Ganon or Ganon/MK? I think there would be quite an outcry if people knew that he used MK to get to top 13, and then switched to Ganon and posted only Ganon in the results. This would be especially true if in those first 3 matches he played someone like a Sheik or Falco which would be VERY difficult for the Ganon. Now you could say that he SHOULD list MK because that bettered his chances of winning against that sheik or falco. However, this is again only hearsay, and you're relying on collectively subjective intelligence like match-up ratings, tier lists, etc. It's just guess work.

I don't think there would be any outcry. You still seem to be pushing some anti-Ganon conspiracy. If the person used just Ganon in the important matches then that means they mained Ganon.

 

[slikvik]

Plank's Apt. Tourney Vol. 2 Results Brawl
$5 entry fee
25+ people
Singles

1: Azen Zagenite (Lucario) ($31.50)
2: meep (Ice Climbers) ($9.00)
3: boss (Mario/Luigi) ($4.50)
4: g-regulate (Snake/Jigglypuff)
5: spec (Zero Suit Samus)
5: omni (Donkey Kong/King Dedede)
7: candy (Snake)
7: lobos (Toon Link)
9: yoster (Metaknight)
9: plank (Metaknight)
9: chu (Kirby)
9: jose (Diddy Kong/King Dedede)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219098

gogo ice climbers

For Ankoku, payouts were actually $15, $45, $90. you can verify that in the thread

MD/VA most diverse region? discuss

 

[Justblaze647]

ZOMG

ROFLMAO @ Slikvik sig.

lololol

 

[meepxzero]

For Ankoku, payouts were actually $15, $45, $90. you can verify that in the thread

MD/VA most diverse region? discuss

weve been the most diverse since melee lol

 

[slikvik]

tru but NY is up there too in diversity

 

[The_NZA]

*EDIT* http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219077
The Maine Brawl II: Don't Torture My Cats
10$ Singles entry fee
21 People
Singles

Singles:
1: Fatal ($126.00) (Snake)
2: Dazwa ($63.00) (ZSS/Falco/Dedede)
3: Darc ($21.00) (Meta Knight/Falco)
4: c. Awesum (Snake)
5: NZA (Ness)
5: Thorn (Mario/Fox/Falco)
7: Neil (Snake)
7: Boxman (Luigi/Meta Knight/Game and Watch)