Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

I think Falco's bair is the most practical one in top 10 that is both extremely safe and strong at the same time. I'm pretty sure his bair short hop auto cancels as well. (I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on this one because I have bias for falco so call me out if i'm fradulent plz)

Assuming nothing's changed, it has auto-cancel frames before frame 4 and after frame 14. Even then, it doesn't have a lot of landing lag, especially compared to Fair and Dair.

 

[Jigglymaster]

It doesn't make sense to restrict all Miis just because you think that one Mii is "too good" because that is completely subjective. Miis dont even have results to support something like that. If you make that argument that what is going to stop people from saying default size is too good and then saying that all Miis should be max height and weight because it makes them "balanced." Restricting them would also leave Gunner and Swordfighter worse off. Besides even if Brawler because that big of a problem he will just get nerfed the next balance patch.

Just play and enjoy the game as it is for better or for worse.

Yeah imo, at the very least if theres going to be ANY type of restricting, it should only be making them default size. If they should be forced to be max height/weight, then whats to say that we cant force Diddy or sheik to use bad specials? Then it all becomes our own personal balancing game and it just becomes too much of a slippery slope.

 

[deepseadiva]

What is broken about or what aspect of the Mii sizes stalls tournaments?

Not sure why you can't play a character optimally if neither of those are apparent.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

You really should re-consider when you simply had never fought the character before and then you had to fight the absolute best Mii Brawler main in tournament. You beat the Tiny Mii brawler that fought you before and then you lost to my default Mii Brawler. Dabuz's rosalina handles my Mii Brawler just fine, in-fact Dabuz doesn't even think Mii Brawler is top 5. There is no reason to restrict the character.

Yeah that's what I'm saying. Despite him being nuts he shouldn't be restricted. I don't think he needs restrictions I actually enjoyed the different size and set variations you guys ran. So no restrictions is my belief. Helicopter kicks is an absurd move though.

 

[Jigglymaster]

Yeah that's what I'm saying. Despite him being nuts he shouldn't be restricted. I don't think he needs restrictions I actually enjoyed the different size and set variations you guys ran. So no restrictions is my belief. Helicopter kicks is an absurd move though.

The thing is about Helicopter kick is that if you don't understand how to counter it, it's going to be very hard to win against. I'll try to explain it to you the best that I can.

Basically the move combo's from D-throw up until like 70%. At lower percentages its used for damage and at the higher percentages such as 50%-70% it will kill from the ledge. It should be important to avoid getting d-thrown at the ledge until you're past 70%, then his combo will no longer work and he will have to take much more riskier options to land the kill. His smash attacks for the most part suck, his side b is heavily punishable on shield and his up b if not done from the ledge, doesn't kill until around 110%.

As for Diing the move, you always want to DI the opposite way Mii Brawler is facing so that your character gets hit directly above him, aka his one blind spot for Helicopter kick since it does not hit directly above him. If the mii brawler main is inexperienced he will no longer be able to hit you, and for more experianced mii brawler mains such as myself will have to work harder to land the combo correctly, not to mention it keeps you away from the horizontal blast zone as much as possible and that can make the biggest difference between living and dying.

When I fight another mii brawler I simply just jab and it stops his approach because all he wants to do is grab. Jabbing beats grabbing in this game and Mii brawler isn't really threatening outside of his grab and n-air approaches. People will catch on once they get more mii brawlers to practice against.

 

[TheZyzyva]

I dont think we should be restricting Miis for balance, just for consistancy. Default Mii should be the only Mii. Even if it doesnt change the MU that much, I still dont think it would be a fair burden of knowledge to put on players to learn their combos and kill %s against the same character multiple times. The other 49 fighters have to stick to one size, IMO so should the Miis. Just because they can change doesnt mean they should.

 

[Pazx]

I've said this before. Mii Brawler is a very limited character with a STUPID advantage state. You know who else fits that mould? Meta Knight. If you know how to beat these characters you should not fall into their traps. High level players like Jtails and Dabuz agree with this sentiment, Mii Brawler is simply not that good. I've stopped using him quite as frequently in tournaments as it tends to leave a bad taste in some people's mouth but that is due to them being inexperienced with the character and the matchup and not understanding how to beat it. If I were to continue maining this character I would reach a point where I am not able to beat the most intelligent players in my region because I really can't see this character winning long sets against high level opponents who know what to do. Mii Brawler will always take "cheap" stocks and seem threatening but a player like ZeRo will never lose a 3 stock BO5 to him (especially now that he has M2K's Brawler to practice against).

@Katakiri - relevant to ongoing MK discussion.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The thing is about Helicopter kick is that if you don't understand how to counter it, it's going to be very hard to win against. I'll try to explain it to you the best that I can.

Basically the move combo's from D-throw up until like 70%. At lower percentages its used for damage and at the higher percentages such as 50%-70% it will kill from the ledge. It should be important to avoid getting d-thrown at the ledge until you're past 70%, then his combo will no longer work and he will have to take much more riskier options to land the kill. His smash attacks for the most part suck, his side b is heavily punishable on shield and his up b if not done from the ledge, doesn't kill until around 110%.

As for Diing the move, you always want to DI the opposite way Mii Brawler is facing so that your character gets hit directly above him, aka his one blind spot for Helicopter kick since it does not hit directly above him. If the mii brawler main is inexperienced he will no longer be able to hit you, and for more experianced mii brawler mains such as myself will have to work harder to land the combo correctly, not to mention it keeps you away from the horizontal blast zone as much as possible and that can make the biggest difference between living and dying.

When I fight another mii brawler I simply just jab and it stops his approach because all he wants to do is grab. Jabbing beats grabbing in this game and Mii brawler isn't really threatening outside of his grab and n-air approaches. People will catch on once they get more mii brawlers to practice against.

So where would you rank mii brawler? Am I wrong considering him a top ten character? Thanks for the information I think it's helpful. Although I don't think once people learn the MU mii brawler will be some mediocre character. I watched your match vs ukl and it was a really good set. I see mii brawler as like Luigi without a projectile.

That 50-70% range you're talking about is death for some characters =/. but I'll definitely keep in mind what you said going forward.

I dont think we should be restricting Miis for balance, just for consistancy. Default Mii should be the only Mii. Even if it doesnt change the MU that much, I still dont think it would be a fair burden of knowledge to put on players to learn their combos and kill %s against the same character multiple times. The other 49 fighters have to stick to one size, IMO so should the Miis. Just because they can change doesnt mean they should.

I think only the mii players should decide if their character is restricted. Whether it's size or moves. As fo KO percentages the smaller the character is the easier it is to kill. No big deal. Mii's should be allowed to develop into their optimal height and weight.

 

[Jigglymaster]

So where would you rank mii brawler? Am I wrong considering him a top ten character?

I think Mii Brawler is definitely worthy of being a top 10 character for sure. Don't get me wrong he's a fundamentally good character, but he won't reach the same level as Diddy Sheik Rosalina Pikachu Luigi Sonic ect. I personally don't care though as I'm going to play this character regardless of where he falls on the tier list, I play Mii Brawler because I love him, not because he's a good character.

 

[Antonykun]

All this small Brawler ire made me want to try him out...
Why do I play Swordfighter again?
God it stings knowing that you are playing as the inferior Mii by THAT much of a margin.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I think Mii Brawler is definitely worthy of being a top 10 character for sure. Don't get me wrong he's a fundamentally good character, but he won't reach the same level as Diddy Sheik Rosalina Pikachu Luigi Sonic ect. I personally don't care though as I'm going to play this character regardless of where he falls on the tier list, I play Mii Brawler because I love him, not because he's a good character.

That's pretty dope I wish I was the same way. it's great playing a character you love it's rather rewarding.

 

[Jigglymaster]

All this small Brawler ire made me want to try him out...
Why do I play Swordfighter again?
God it stings knowing that you are playing as the inferior Mii by THAT much of a margin.

IMO Tiny Mii Swordfighter is mid tier at least. He's actually really good when he's tiny and that d-air of his completely messes Diddy Kong up. Add the reflect cape in and bananas will be less of a problem too. That matchup might be 4:6 Diddy's favor, so not too bad considering he's still considered like the best.

That's pretty dope I wish I was the same way. it's great playing a character you love it's rather rewarding.

I've always been a character loyalist. In Brawl that was Jigglypuff and I was considered the best Brawl Jigglypuff player, of course I never did well because the character was so bad. I picked up Mii Brawler in Smash 4 because I could make any character I wanted, and thus, was able to play as my favorite character and my own created cartoon characters. Mii Brawler in my eyes is the most enjoyable character I've ever played in the history of smash, from how he feels, to how I can customize his looks, to how all his attacks sound, I've reached the pinnacle of a perfect character and I wouldn't want any less. I suppose the fact that he's one of the better characters helps me succeed so much more in the tournament setting than ever before. It's the first time I've cared about a good character when i wasn't 13-16 years old (Melee Jiggs)

 

[Smog Frog]

I think Mii Brawler is definitely worthy of being a top 10 character for sure. Don't get me wrong he's a fundamentally good character, but he won't reach the same level as Diddy Sheik Rosalina Pikachu Luigi Sonic ect. I personally don't care though as I'm going to play this character regardless of where he falls on the tier list, I play Mii Brawler because I love him, not because he's a good character.

wait who do you love, brawler himself or felix?

e; ninjad lol

 

[DunnoBro]

You really should re-consider when you simply had never fought the character before and then you had to fight the absolute best Mii Brawler main in tournament. You beat the Tiny Mii brawler that fought you before and then you lost to my default Mii Brawler. Dabuz's rosalina handles my Mii Brawler just fine, in-fact Dabuz doesn't even think Mii Brawler is top 5. There is no reason to restrict the character.

Rosalina is naturally hard to grab/throw combo though, and due to her floaty nature, she gets out of the death combo percents fairly quickly. So I wonder how skewed his perspective is. And to counter it, m2k and zero agree he is top 3.

If i understand you correctly (or misunderstood earlier) does this mean you no longer think skinny brawler is broken?

(Also once again just glad duck hunt has some saving grace that he doesn't need to worry so much about certain custom chars. Here it's that he's hard to grab)

 

[Jigglymaster]

wait who do you love, brawler himself or felix?

e; ninjad lol

Felix is definitely a helping factor to it all, but I have more miis than just him, besides the characters mobility and attacking sounds are other reasons why I love him.

Rosalina is naturally hard to grab/throw combo though, and due to her floaty nature, she gets out of the death combo percents fairly quickly. So I wonder how skewed his perspective is. And to counter it, m2k and zero agree he is top 3.

If i understand you correctly (or misunderstood earlier) does this mean you no longer think skinny brawler is broken?

I dunno, Nairo still kind of bopped M2k's Mii Brawler at Sandstorm and there still really is no big use of the character outside of myself, so its honestly really hard to still say at this point. Nairo is definitely one of the few folks along with Dabuz and Jtails who understand how to play the matchup correctly.


As for Tiny Mii Brawler, Default Mii Brawler can actually beat him in the ditto, if you think about it it makes sense really. All of his attacks have more range, so on paper he should be able to outspace tiny mii brawler and win every single trade. So, if I ever come up against one in tournament, I won't be worried.

Tiny Mii Brawler is powerful in his own right, but he has flaws that can be countered. I also noticed that Helicopter kick has a smaller hitbox with tiny mii Brawler, and sometimes opponents can actually fall out of the move or not get hit by it at all, it's actually kind of annoying...

 

[Antonykun]

IMO Tiny Mii Swordfighter is mid tier at least. He's actually really good when he's tiny and that d-air of his completely messes Diddy Kong up. Add the reflect cape in and bananas will be less of a problem too. That matchup might be 4:6 Diddy's favor, so not too bad considering he's still considered like the best.




I've always been a character loyalist. In Brawl that was Jigglypuff and I was considered the best Brawl Jigglypuff player, of course I never did well because the character was so bad. I picked up Mii Brawler in Smash 4 because I could make any character I wanted, and thus, was able to play as my favorite character and my own created cartoon characters. Mii Brawler in my eyes is the most enjoyable character I've ever played in the history of smash, from how he feels, to how I can customize his looks, to how all his attacks sound, I've reached the pinnacle of a perfect character and I wouldn't want any less. I suppose the fact that he's one of the better characters helps me succeed so much more in the tournament setting than ever before. It's the first time I've cared about a good character when i wasn't 13-16 years old (Melee Jiggs)

By tiny do you mean the EVO customs Swordfighter?

Like the shortest Swordfighter seems to whiff everything when I play them but when I grabbed 1/4 height/Min weight...it felt like I was playing a character again

 

[DunnoBro]

I dunno, Nairo still kind of bopped M2k's Mii Brawler at Sandstorm and there still really is no big use of the character outside of myself, so its honestly really hard to still say at this point. Nairo is definitely one of the few folks along with Dabuz and Jtails who understand how to play the matchup correctly.


As for Tiny Mii Brawler, Default Mii Brawler can actually beat him in the ditto, if you think about it it makes sense really. All of his attacks have more range, so on paper he should be able to outspace tiny mii brawler and win every single trade. So, if I ever come up against one in tournament, I won't be worried.

Wasn't that brawler default?

But I'll concede my doomsaying about skinny brawler to you if you think he's not an issue yet. This is why we're testing now, after all.

 

[Jigglymaster]

By tiny do you mean the EVO customs Swordfighter?

Like the shortest Swordfighter seems to whiff everything when I play them but when I grabbed 1/4 height/Min weight...it felt like I was playing a character again

Yes the EVO Tiny Swordfighter. I two stocked a Diddy Kong in Grandfinals of a tournament recently with it.

http://www.twitch.tv/hitboxarena/b/652273605

02:09:42

Wasn't that brawler default?

But I'll concede my doomsaying about skinny brawler to you if you think he's not an issue yet. This is why we're testing now, after all.

It doesn't seem like there are any super glaring issues yet, but I'll most certainly be hitting the lab figuring out as much as I can, to prepare myself if anyone does happen to try and use it against me.

 

[Antonykun]

Yes the EVO Tiny Swordfighter. I two stocked a Diddy Kong in Grandfinals of a tournament recently with it.

http://www.twitch.tv/hitboxarena/b/652273605

02:09:42

Oh yeah I saw it already over the Swordfighter forums, that's why I asked if it was the EVO Swordfighter. Well played though those were some seriously hard Reflect reads

 

[thehard]

In Brawl that was Jigglypuff and I was considered the best Brawl Jigglypuff player, of course I never did well because the character was so bad.

Hang on I'm pretty sure @Thinkaman made that same claim some time ago, you two are gonna have to MM now

 

[Antonykun]

Hang on I'm pretty sure @Thinkaman made that same claim some time ago, you two are gonna have to MM now

He said he was the best in early brawl IIRC so....

 

[deepseadiva]

Hang on I'm pretty sure @Thinkaman made that same claim some time ago, you two are gonna have to MM now

This reminds me of that quote by Dr Manhatten from Watchmen about the smartest termite.

 

[Nobie]

I keep thinking about how Mewtwo has both one of the best air dodges in the game (if not THE best?) combined with one of the worst rolls in the game, and how these two things are supposed to fit together.

It might be that I'm used to a character with drastically different physics, but good and liberal use of air dodging seems like it might be crucial to good Mewtwo play. As others have found out in the Mewtwo forums, air dodge activates on Frame 2 and lasts 23 frames, and you can act out of it pretty quickly. Not only that, but I think it's the best way to cover for the fact that Mewtwo's initial air dodge animation leaves him in place and therefore pretty vulnerable. You can activate the air dodge almost immediately after you begin the second jump and by the time you pop out of the air dodge you're way the hell somewhere else because Mewtwo's jumps are enormous.

Not only that, but Mewtwo can short hop air dodge and not incur a landing lag penalty.

While I wish Mewtwo's rolls were better, they seem mainly there to create distance. They have more vulnerability frames than most rolls, I think, but move decently quickly and go pretty far.

 

[Balgorxz]

It doesn't make sense to restrict all Miis just because you think that one Mii is "too good" because that is completely subjective. Miis dont even have results to support something like that. If you make that argument that what is going to stop people from saying default size is too good and then saying that all Miis should be max height and weight because it makes them "balanced." Restricting them would also leave Gunner and Swordfighter worse off. Besides even if Brawler because that big of a problem he will just get nerfed the next balance patch.

Just play and enjoy the game as it is for better or for worse.

brawler already got a good nerf

 

[Bjurrse]

I do agree that people need to learn how to play against us brawlers.

He looks srsly op against those who don't know the matchup.

My friends has learnt to stay away from the ledges, and keep me from grabbing them. And boy do they like to footstool me.

Helicopter kick is really good, but there are lots of moves that has early kill potential. Shuttle loop, rising tornado and twisting fox are a few noteworthy ones.

I still prefer mii's to be default size, its the size i have always used.

Btw lets talk about gunner!
People seen to rank this character way to low.

He can be a pain in the ass with his walling. Nothing is more satisfying than hitting someone with the bombrop, into a grenade! I'd even argue that gunner is good in close combat! Good jab and neat smashes!

 

[meleebrawler]

All this small Brawler ire made me want to try him out...
Why do I play Swordfighter again?
God it stings knowing that you are playing as the inferior Mii by THAT much of a margin.

The punch is mightier than the sword, remember?

 

[Luco]

I've always been a character loyalist.

Buddyyyyyyyyy.....

I can relate!

--

is a great character in my eyes. That said, he's one of the few characters that kinda suffered noticeably in the change to Wii U, because he's one of the few characters that has a few big differences in a couple of his moves, the most prominent of which is landing lag on SH/FH Fair (on 3DS the landing lag is modest, in wii U it's laughably worse. Ftilt suffers exactly the same treatment). Still, you basically have a more reliable Villager Fair, a wonderful Bair, a Uair that seems to catch slightly less than it should but ohwellsies (still catches a lot), and a surprisingly decent Nair (and urghhh Dair but we don't talk about that. ).

The character benefits from being kinda small, he likes the extra mobility because Usmash is proooobably going to be one of his main kill moves. My favourite set is probably grenades, stealth burst, default upB and reflector, but I think his custom sets are pretty variable and MU dependent in more than a few cases.

I dunno, the character seems to have massive disjoints and traps, the ability to wall people out on a DHD-scale basis and doesn't suffer from the same killing issues as DHD, more or less.

I've always maintained he's likely high tier. Not that mid-high 30-char echelon everyone always talks about their character always being in to avoid aggression, I legitimately think he has the tools to make it into high tier with Villager and Wario-tier characters.

... That said I also wish he had more results so I could actually back up this claim.

 

[GeneralLedge]

Add the reflect cape in and bananas will be less of a problem too.

I'm going to start saying this every time Diddy/Swordfighter MU is mentioned:

Gale Strike destroys bananas and peanuts. It beats monkeyflip too, if you shorthop before using it. The most ideal strategy is to, frankly, spam Gale Strike a lot. Diddy can't approach at all if you do, and if he manages to approach grab range, spotdodge -> Gale Strike. It comes out just as Diddy's spotdodge ends.

I made someone really, really angry on Anthers last time I did this .

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I'm going to start saying this every time Diddy/Swordfighter MU is mentioned:

Gale Strike destroys bananas and peanuts. It beats monkeyflip too, if you shorthop before using it. The most ideal strategy is to, frankly, spam Gale Strike a lot. Diddy can't approach at all if you do, and if he manages to approach grab range, spotdodge -> Gale Strike. It comes out just as Diddy's spotdodge ends.

I made someone really, really angry on Anthers last time I did this .

Haven't really used my swordfighter in a while but gale strike on it's own is not gonna keep Diddy out. Diddy's entire playstyle revolves around using his opponents fear of bananas to create openings. Gale strike is a pretty serious commitment and he can punish it if he sees it coming. The banana gives Diddy the ability to approach from a lot more angles than just straight in on the ground; he can pluck a banana over your head from mid range and get in with grab, fair, nair, or other stuff as it falls and traps to get through your projectiles on stage. He will bait you into committing to destroying his projectiles like that as his approach. Does swordfighter even have a good answer to Diddy's fair?

I'm more worried about getting gimped offstage vs. swordfighter.

 

[Antonykun]

I'm more worried about getting gimped offstage vs. swordfighter.

Can't you just recover high like 80% of the time?
As for answer for f-air the closes I can think of atm id yolo power thrust maybe a well spaced up tilt

 

[GeneralLedge]

Stone Scabbard's i-frames might work vs Diddy's fair if well-timed, and it throws him away for ample Gale Strike pestering. Also helps with going low for the jetpack gimp.

I'm wondering if Skyward Slash might out-prioritize it? Use at any angle makes it an interesting offensive option, although missing at an upward angle puts you in a bad spot (Might also beat banana peels if used horizontally on the ground, though).

Mii Sword vs Diddy isn't that bad a MU, imo. It wasn't that bad pre-patch, and it's certainly better for Sword post-patch. A very tense MU, though.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Can't you just recover high like 80% of the time?
As for answer for f-air the closes I can think of atm id yolo power thrust maybe a well spaced up tilt

Prolly at least 80% of the time lol; monkey filp is insane. But if the swordfighter player is comfortable going deep I can see barrels getting gimped like, almost every time Diddy has to charge them. Swordfighter has fast sword aerials in addition to Kirby's dair with a disjoint at the end of it. The hard part is gonna be forcing Diddy to recover low like in every other matchup, though.

Edit: A lot of people have stuff that could beat fair on paper but the reality is that mid range fair is still outrageously fast, safe and easy compared to what the opponent is gonna have to do to stuff it. You will prolly lose most of those exchanges unless you're in the other guys head. But swordfighter has the mobility to screw with Diddy as he sets up bananas if I'm not mistaken in addition to the things you guys are saying.

All this brawler and swordfighter talk makes me want to get back into my miis especially to see what they can do vs Diddy post patch.

 

[GeneralLedge]

The hard part is gonna be forcing Diddy to recover low like in every other matchup, though.

Again, Gale Strike. Any high recovery is going to get tossed even higher, and diagonally-above the stage is where Sword's Fair reaches its best. Or you can just nair to throw them away a bit more, which I'm pretty sure doesn't reset Monkey Flip afterward, forcing him to jetpack. Although depending on how far out Diddy goes it might be harder to gimp at that point, but **** it I'll just throw another Gale Strike out there.

I may be addicted.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Again, Gale Strike. Any high recovery is going to get tossed even higher, and diagonally-above the stage is where Sword's Fair reaches its best. Or you can just nair to throw them away a bit more, which I'm pretty sure doesn't reset Monkey Flip afterward, forcing him to jetpack. Although depending on how far out Diddy goes it might be harder to gimp at that point, but **** it I'll just throw another Gale Strike out there.

I may be addicted.

I can see that working to block the monkey flip if Diddy can't get over it. Maybe I rage-quit swordfighter too soon...

 

[ChronoPenguin]

reversal slash monkey flip if you aren't going to just throw out shuriken at it anyways.

 

[TheZyzyva]

Something Ive been pondering of late; I think Sheik is hurt pretty badly by the 2-stock meta and cant/wont dominate tournaments as long as it remains the norm.

Reasons: Being the first to lose a stock hurts Sheik more than anyone due to her needing rage to kill at reasonable %s. If she falls first then she now needs around 30% more or so, but its now also more difficult to rack that extra damage since the opponent is already past her reliable combo %s. Now when she does take that first stock, the gravy damage shes taken will put her into rage sooner, again causing her combos to break early. All of this makes me think that a Sheik in a hole is in a lot more trouble than most any other character; an uphill battle with her is much steeper. With only 2 lives there isnt as much opportunity to outplay the opponent enough in order to make a comeback, since a comeback with her is made more difficult by the games mechanics.

Just a thought, would love to hear peoples opinions about it, whether theres some thruth there or Im just crazy.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

As the metagame progresses, characters with good mobility and a good option pool will likely get more out of it just by virtue of having more/better tools to push. It's like how Meta Knight always had more/new stuff to push in Brawl; there's always something new to experiment with and improve with so many options at your disposal. Sheik will get harder to hit with those Rage-induced moves and have an easier time getting low-percent KOs before Rage becomes too much of an issue.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Something Ive been pondering of late; I think Sheik is hurt pretty badly by the 2-stock meta and cant/wont dominate tournaments as long as it remains the norm.

Reasons: Being the first to lose a stock hurts Sheik more than anyone due to her needing rage to kill at reasonable %s. If she falls first then she now needs around 30% more or so, but its now also more difficult to rack that extra damage since the opponent is already past her reliable combo %s. Now when she does take that first stock, the gravy damage shes taken will put her into rage sooner, again causing her combos to break early. All of this makes me think that a Sheik in a hole is in a lot more trouble than most any other character; an uphill battle with her is much steeper. With only 2 lives there isnt as much opportunity to outplay the opponent enough in order to make a comeback, since a comeback with her is made more difficult by the games mechanics.

Just a thought, would love to hear peoples opinions about it, whether theres some thruth there or Im just crazy.

I've noticed this too; it is very important to take the first stock or close the first stock as quickly as you can with Shiek. But Shiek can do so much damage so quickly to opponents at low % that she can use that to comeback after taking the stock, so I think it's at least a little more important for Lucario to take the first stock, even with his crazyness at high aura late game.

 

[suarsuar]

Something Ive been pondering of late; I think Sheik is hurt pretty badly by the 2-stock meta and cant/wont dominate tournaments as long as it remains the norm.

Reasons: Being the first to lose a stock hurts Sheik more than anyone due to her needing rage to kill at reasonable %s. If she falls first then she now needs around 30% more or so, but its now also more difficult to rack that extra damage since the opponent is already past her reliable combo %s. Now when she does take that first stock, the gravy damage shes taken will put her into rage sooner, again causing her combos to break early. All of this makes me think that a Sheik in a hole is in a lot more trouble than most any other character; an uphill battle with her is much steeper. With only 2 lives there isnt as much opportunity to outplay the opponent enough in order to make a comeback, since a comeback with her is made more difficult by the games mechanics.

Just a thought, would love to hear peoples opinions about it, whether theres some thruth there or Im just crazy.

You're right in that the first to die has an uphill battle.

And with Sheik, if you die first, it's very hard to win the match.

You do need rage to secure some set ups but after 120, nothing combos into itself as easy as before.

Dthrow to uair will not connect so you have to fthrow to uair and hope for bad DI.

Fsmash won't connect even with good spacing because the first kick sends them too far.

Vanish mix ups are very hard to make because the dthrow will send them to high for any sort of feint.

If you're Sheik and you don't take the first stock, you better be campy.

 

[bc1910]

I think you have a point, 2 stock and rage don't do Sheik many mechanical favours. However Sheik's neutral is so good that you're never really in danger of not being able to catch up with your opponent if you fall behind. Compared to say G&W who faces a much bigger chance of simply getting obliterated before he can make up the difference. Gdubs is light so he's not the best example but you get what I mean. Charizard would be another example, if he falls behind he might have an easier time taking the opponent's first stock than Sheik, but he's prbaboy gonna take a lot more damage than Sheik in the process and then struggle to end the second stock before the opponent ends his.

EDIT: Oh and Sheik's advantage is excellent. Especially at low percentage. It's very easy for her to rack up 30-40% in a single string at the start of the opponent's next stock, unlike characters like Gdubs