Character Competitive Impressions

[Firefoxx]

If a patch happens, characters like Diddy, Sheik, Sonic are sort of guaranteed to get tweaked. I'm far more interested in the way Sakurai and co handle characters like Link and Samus, For Glory mainstays that don't have the tournament results to back up their online popularity. Do you buff them to make them better tournament picks or will they suffer the way Pudge does, being far too popular in 'pub' games to get the buffs they need?

 

[Thinkaman]

Honestly I'm not quite as convinced. Like I've said before, I don't like the fact that Diddy is so basic and so good.

While it does bother me how easy it is to pick up Diddy and perform well because of this (not to dismiss Diddy mains in any way), I think it's actually healthy that Diddy's strength is rooted in having excessively good fundamentals. He has to play an "honest" game to win, it's just that "honesty" comes easier for him than anyone else.

Sheik is actually somewhat similar, it's just less extreme. More of her power in invested in obnoxious Needles and extended combo strings, which can be a bit more polarizing.

I'd probably give Diddy and Sheik moderate nerfs, then tiny nerfs to Pika, Sonic, Rosa, and maybe ZSS. Then perhaps some buffs to some of the weaker characters, like Samus and especially Zelda.

I would nerf all 6 of those, though ZSS would only get a very tiny nerf to up-b's knockback.

I would remove the trip hitbox on Counter Timber and the super armor on Kong Cyclone just because it's poor design; these are the only customs I'd nerf, and both characters would be getting quality of life changes elsewhere. (Especially DK) I would also not be opposed to redistributing the damage on Jumbo Hoop to elsewhere in WFT's moveset, alongside other general kit buffs.

(Edit note: For the record, I think Gravitational Pull is the worst design in Smash 4 and much more problematic than Counter Timber or Kong Cyclone. However, unlike those cases, we can't patch out what makes the move so bad.)

Lots of weaker characters could get buffs, there's no shortage of small, fun little buffs and quality of life changes you could do. I think Smash 4 would benefit a lot from giving several low tiers modestly more liberal AC windows on various aerials. (Take Marth nair, for example) And yeah, Zelda needs some help. But I think we agree, there's no need for a revolution.

The magnitude of changes we had to make in BBrawl to address people from like, Ike downward (which honestly wasn't much, except Ganon), would not be called for in Smash 4.

 

[Nobie]

While it does bother me how easy it is to pick up Diddy and perform well because of this (not to dismiss Diddy mains in any way), I think it's actually healthy that Diddy's strength is rooted in having excessively good fundamentals. He has to play an "honest" game to win, it's just that "honesty" comes easier for him than anyone else.

Sheik is actually somewhat similar, it's just less extreme. More of her power in invested in obnoxious Needles and extended combo strings, which can be a bit more polarizing.



I would nerf all 6 of those, though ZSS would only get a very tiny nerf to up-b's knockback.

I would remove the trip hitbox on Counter Timber and the super armor on Kong Cyclone just because it's poor design; these are the only customs I'd nerf, and both characters would be getting quality of life changes elsewhere. (Especially DK) I would also not be opposed to redistributing the damage on Jumbo Hoop to elsewhere in WFT's moveset, alongside other general kit buffs.

(Edit note: For the record, I think Gravitational Pull is the worst design in Smash 4 and much more problematic than Counter Timber or Kong Cyclone. However, unlike those cases, we can't patch out what makes the move so bad.)

Lots of weaker characters could get buffs, there's no shortage of small, fun little buffs and quality of life changes you could do. I think Smash 4 would benefit a lot from giving several low tiers modestly more liberal AC windows on various aerials. (Take Marth nair, for example) And yeah, Zelda needs some help. But I think we agree, there's no need for a revolution.

The magnitude of changes we had to make in BBrawl to address people from like, Ike downward (which honestly wasn't much, except Ganon), would not be called for in Smash 4.

The only change I'd make it to Gravitational Pull is to make it unusable in the air. That way, Rosalina can't simply negate all attempts to zone her in the air, and if you're someone who relies on projectiles you have a goal in mind (send her upwards).

 

[Thinkaman]

The only change I'd make it to Gravitational Pull is to make it unusable in the air. That way, Rosalina can't simply negate all attempts to zone her in the air, and if you're someone who relies on projectiles you have a goal in mind (send her upwards).

This is not unreasonable, but I'm not sure I'd patch something so drastic into the game. ("Drastic"; this is pretty subtle in the grand scheme of things, but slightly above the threshold for intrusiveness I'd prefer in patches.) It also doesn't help address characters who depend on projectiles as an approach in neutral? Still, a solid idea.


Also, I think shield damage would be an effective, unobtrusive tool to help balance some low tiers--at least much more than it was in Brawl. You could slap +20 shield damage onto many low-tier moves in Brawl, and it wouldn't matter much. This is not at all true in Smash 4.

Also, I like Smash 4's idea of microscopic unblockable windboxes as a means of evening out shield-push, which the game does here and there. (Like WFT d-tilt.) This could also be a nice, unobtrusive way of slightly buffing low-tier normal move fundamentals, without actually making the moves end sooner. (And being globally less punishable, to all defenses including general spacing)

 

[Terotrous]

While it does bother me how easy it is to pick up Diddy and perform well because of this (not to dismiss Diddy mains in any way), I think it's actually healthy that Diddy's strength is rooted in having excessively good fundamentals. He has to play an "honest" game to win, it's just that "honesty" comes easier for him than anyone else.

I don't feel Diddy is that honest because his pressure is so safe, particularly banana, uair, and fair. To me, an honest character is someone like Yoshi. To get a kill he has to either get a punish or make a read, because his kill moves are otherwise not safe. Sheik isn't very honest either. Bouncing Fish should definitely not be safe on shield.

(Edit note: For the record, I think Gravitational Pull is the worst design in Smash 4 and much more problematic than Counter Timber or Kong Cyclone. However, unlike those cases, we can't patch out what makes the move so bad.)

Yeah, I do think that is a really poorly designed move, but I'm not quite sure how to change it. Making it have more cooldown might kind of help, then you couldn't absorb two projectiles thrown really close to each other, though I'm still not sure that really matters in most of the matchups where that move is completely stupid.

Lots of weaker characters could get buffs, there's no shortage of small, fun little buffs and quality of life changes you could do. I think Smash 4 would benefit a lot from giving several low tiers modestly more liberal AC windows on various aerials. (Take Marth nair, for example) And yeah, Zelda needs some help. But I think we agree, there's no need for a revolution.

Yeah, there's a lot of little hitbox adjustments and such that would make characters better. For example, can Samus USmash link properly for once?

 

[Thinkaman]

Yeah, there's a lot of little hitbox adjustments and such that would make characters better. For example, can Samus USmash link properly for once?

All the hitboxes that have busted linking, like DHD and Zelda Smashes, are the lowest hanging fruit to fix.


Oh yeah, because I haven't actually posted this gem of wisdom here:

Rest is infinitely more "jank" than anything in Smash history.

 

[Judo777]

Someone mentioned banning Sheik (and actually Diddy also) and I literally almost fell over in my chair. I literally cannot believe the extreme overestimation that exists with Sheik (and actually Diddy). We did not ban MK (who was worthy of a ban) and people are mentioning banning 2 vastly inferior characters.

Sheik is the first proposed "arguably best" character in a smash game, that from the beginning of the game it has been known is the worst character in the game at something that no other top tier character in smash history has ever had issues with. Top tiers don't struggle killing people, literally none of them do. Most top tiers are either great at killing people, or at worst (like Diddy Kong in Brawl) like middle of the pack (killing people at about 120-130).

Diddy Kong at least follows the trend of normal top tiers (he actually kills early and easily). He still doesn't warrant a ban.....

More so I have stated 100 times before, MK was not banned in Brawl, therefore no character will ever be banned in smash, because no other character in the smash history will be as good.

 

[Terotrous]

All the hitboxes that have busted linking, like DHD and Zelda Smashes, are the lowest hanging fruit to fix.

Serious question, how good would DHD with fixed Smash attacks be? Their biggest problem is that they can't kill consistently, largely because these moves don't work well. With his smashes fixed they might actually be very dangerous.

 

[Thinkaman]

Serious question, how good would DHD with fixed Smash attacks be? Their biggest problem is that they can't kill consistently, largely because these moves don't work well. With his smashes fixed they might actually be very dangerous.

They are still difficult moves to land; slow and punishable. I would be noting compared to like, a Sonic kill throw, which would almost break him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

They are still difficult moves to land; slow and punishable. I would be noting compared to like, a Sonic kill throw, which would almost break him.

Duck Hunt's Smashes are punishable. However, they are anything but slow. They're fast in both uncharged startup and release time.

 

[Terotrous]

They are still difficult moves to land; slow and punishable. I would be noting compared to like, a Sonic kill throw, which would almost break him.

I don't know, they seem to have pretty solid disjoints at least. Also, can't he kind of set them up with his projectile traps?

We did not ban MK (who was worthy of a ban) and people are mentioning banning 2 vastly inferior characters.

Yes we did, eventually. I think it's quite arguable though that the damage had been done by then and Brawl would have been a much healthier game if he had been banned earlier.

The problem with Sheik and Diddy in Smash 4 compared to Brawl is that Smash4 is actually very close to balanced, save for those two significant outliers. In Brawl, you also have Falco, Ice Climbers, Dedede, and Olimar, who are all also broken in their own ways, so there was at least no shortage of high-tier jank available. In Smash 4, you either play Diddy or Sheik, or you play a fair character and be at a pretty significant disadvantage. I feel like this will actually lead to more a more homogeneous metagame than we saw in Brawl.

Sheik is the first proposed "arguably best" character in a smash game, that from the beginning of the game it has been known is the worst character in the game at something that no other top tier character in smash history has ever had issues with. Top tiers don't struggle killing people, literally none of them do. Most top tiers are either great at killing people, or at worst (like Diddy Kong in Brawl) like middle of the pack (killing people at about 120-130).

The notion that Sheik has trouble killing people is pretty overstated. Sheik has all kinds of kill setups with Bouncing Fish or Uair, USmash kills super well on a read, and she has good gimps too. She is at worst average at getting kills, and I would actually say she's probably slightly above average. She's just not Diddy in that regard.


Anyway, I am still very hopeful that we will get a patch with Mewtwo and this conversation can be completely moot, but if in 6 months we decide we don't like customs and Diddy and Sheik are still dominating everything in Customs Off, we might have to take a serious look at it.

 

[mimgrim]

Oh yeah, because I haven't actually posted this gem of wisdom here:

Rest is infinitely more "jank" than anything in Smash history.

I know this is a bit off topic but I still firmly believe Melee Shine to be the jankiest move in Smash History.

 

[Judo777]

I don't know, they seem to have pretty solid disjoints at least. Also, can't he kind of set them up with his projectile traps?



Yes we did, eventually. I think it's quite arguable though that the damage had been done by then and Brawl would have been a much healthier game if he had been banned earlier.

The problem with Sheik and Diddy in Smash 4 compared to Brawl is that Smash4 is actually very close to balanced, save for those two significant outliers. In Brawl, you also have Falco, Ice Climbers, Dedede, and Olimar, who are all also broken in their own ways, so there was at least no shortage of high-tier jank available. In Smash 4, you either play Diddy or Sheik, or you play a fair character and be at a pretty significant disadvantage. I feel like this will actually lead to more a more homogeneous metagame than we saw in Brawl.



The notion that Sheik has trouble killing people is pretty overstated. Sheik has all kinds of kill setups with Bouncing Fish or Uair, USmash kills super well on a read, and she has good gimps too. She is at worst average at getting kills, and I would actually say she's probably slightly above average. She's just not Diddy in that regard.


Anyway, I am still very hopeful that we will get a patch with Mewtwo and this conversation can be completely moot, but if in 6 months we decide we don't like customs and Diddy and Sheik are still dominating everything in Customs Off, we might have to take a serious look at it.

Or you can play the other characters, like Rosalina or Sonic which actually has better high level results than Sheik. Sheik is the worst results best character.....

And no if you watch most of Mr. Rs videos from Apex, as well as going from my personal experience at smash tournaments I have gone to, Sheiks average kill percents are around 170.... so no.... I don't think thats being overstated. Her setups are really good against people that don't know that its not actually a 50/50. Bouncing fish kills at about 145%.

I have stated this many times before, her kill power is actually WORSE than it was in Brawl

 

[Terotrous]

Or you can play the other characters, like Rosalina or Sonic which actually has better high level results than Sheik. Sheik is the worst results best character

Sheik has all kinds of great results. Rosa and Sonic have some results too but there don't appear to be nearly as many of them, just a handful who are placing super well.

And no if you watch most of Mr. Rs videos from Apex, as well as going from my personal experience at smash tournaments I have gone to, Sheiks average kill percents are around 170.... so no.... I don't think thats being overstated. Her setups are really good against people that don't know that its not actually a 50/50. Bouncing fish kills at about 145%.

I suspect like this is just what it "feels" like. When playing the character, you really notice the stocks where it takes ages to get the kill even if they don't happen very often. I see all kinds of Sheik kills at around 100-120% when watching Sheik matches. A stock lasting to 170 is a definite outlier.

This would be an interesting experiment though if someone has time to kill and wants to watch some Sheik matches.

 

[Judo777]

Sheik has all kinds of great results. Rosa and Sonic have some results too but there don't appear to be nearly as many of them, just a handful who are placing super well.



I suspect like this is just what it "feels" like. When playing the character, you really notice the stocks where it takes ages to get the kill even if they don't happen very often. I see all kinds of Sheik kills at around 100-120% when watching Sheik matches. A stock lasting to 170 is a definite outlier.

This would be an interesting experiment though if someone has time to kill and wants to watch some Sheik matches.

Lol I already DID take some time and average it..... thats what I just mentioned lol. And yes I do notice the ones that feel like they are 170%, because it happens to be every stock. It's very easy to notice, when I'm pointing it out every stock (I literally joke about it in tournament all the time). I didn't just use Mr R's videos either, I also watched False and Neos vids as well. Sure they get some early kills (an early sheik kill is 120) but that's because they hit someone a mile offstage with a bouncing fish when that should be the only thing they are watching for. But at high levels, when the opponents recover correctly and competently, it pans out to about 170.

My results comments were mostly referring to high level tournaments like Apex, and KTAR. Sonic and Roslina have higher results at all of those tournaments. Snake had really high results in Brawl also, lots of Snakes in top 32s at Brawl tournaments. Just so happens that Snake is an easy pickup to play at mid levels.

 

[Terotrous]

Lol I already DID take some time and average it..... thats what I just mentioned lol. And yes I do notice the ones that feel like they are 170%, because it happens to be every stock. It's very easy to notice, when I'm pointing it out every stock (I literally joke about it in tournament all the time). I didn't just use Mr R's videos either, I also watched False and Neos vids as well. Sure they get some early kills (an early sheik kill is 120) but that's because they hit someone a mile offstage with a bouncing fish when that should be the only thing they are watching for. But at high levels, when the opponents recover correctly and competently, it pans out to about 170.

I'm still not quite convinced. Perhaps against some opponents who have really good recovery it takes longer, but there's a lot of characters that Sheik can edgeguard quite competently, and thus a Bouncing Fish offstage isn't the only method of getting a kill. Perhaps vs Diddy / Sonic / Pika it often takes around 150-170, but we're talking about Sheik's viability vs the entire cast, not just the top tier.

Also, it's quite possible that Sheik is taking that long to kill simply because she can. There's nothing stopping you as a Sheik player from going for a USmash read around 110%, like how many other characters try to get their kills, Sheik just has better and safer options so she doesn't have to "gamble" that way. I'm not quite sure that constitutes "trouble killing".

My results comments were mostly referring to high level tournaments like Apex, and KTAR. Sonic and Roslina have higher results at all of those tournaments. Snake had really high results in Brawl also, lots of Snakes in top 32s at Brawl tournaments. Just so happens that Snake is an easy pickup to play at mid levels.

Are you only considering the highest placing? While a Rosa player did outplace every Sheik at Apex, Sheiks got 3rd and 5th, and there was a third Sheik in top 16. I would consider this a better placing than what Rosalina achieved, even though a single Rosa finished 2nd.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I know this is a bit off topic but I still firmly believe Melee Shine to be the jankiest move in Smash History.

I concur.

Rest is like a frame 1 Wario Waft that doesn't need to be charged but it is highly punishable afterwards.

Melee shine is like a frame 1 "**** your everything this is my win button" and destroys almost everything.


And yet, the Melee shines were praised. And extremely strong custom moves in this game are not. Because despite some of them having dominant or centralizing strategies, they still have flaws and drawbacks to them unlike the Melee shines.

People confuse me.

 

[Thinkaman]

I know this is a bit off topic but I still firmly believe Melee Shine to be the jankiest move in Smash History.

That's a clear second imo. Of these frame 1 invincible melee-range moves, Rest only wins out as the jankiest because it makes no bloody sense.

 

[S_B]

but you picked the wrong default special for your example. Bananas are really ****ing dumb and everyone knows it.

I also cited ZSS' stun laser as an example and, TBH, I don't see anyone flying off the handle about bananas anywhere NEAR how much salt we've seen over villager's customs (or customs in general).

In fact, the custom backlash from tournament players is mind boggling, given that default Diddy is still winning most tournaments. Yet, we're seeing buckets of salt as if custom characters were camping out every single match and winning every tournament...

 

[HeroMystic]

And yet, the Melee shines were praised. And extremely strong custom moves in this game are not. Because despite some of them having dominant or centralizing strategies, they still have flaws and drawbacks to them unlike the Melee shines.

People confuse me.

This is assuming Non-Melee/PM fans enjoys the shines. I personally don't. I can at least appeciate there's depth to it though.

 

[S_B]

Imo viewers are an important stakeholder aswell (maybe they could also go under "media reception"). Without them there wouldn't be streams and sponsors and probably also less tourneys, which also leads to less players. It is all tied together though, of course we can't just look at one group of stakeholders and only cater to them.

Could not agree more.

I stopped even acknowledging that a Brawl "competitive game" existed when it became nothing but MK dittos...

Whenever a stream is happening and it's a Diddy or Shiek ditto or Diddy v. Shiek, I tab out.

Nothing will drive people back to Melee (or watching a non-SSB game) faster than the meta growing stale.

 

[mimgrim]

That's a clear second imo. Of these frame 1 invincible melee-range moves, Rest only wins out as the jankiest because it makes no bloody sense.

Well let's see here...

One is a frame 1 move with frame 1 intangibility/invincibility (forget which) with only a small hitbox on the eyes that can OHKO (in Melee) or still kill rather early (Brawl/Smash 4) and leaves you open for punish if you miss, and in some cases even if you hit them and KO them with it.

The other is a frame 1 hitbox around the whole body that is also intangible on the first frame, is JCable on like frame 4, starts combos, extends combos, can out right kill by using it as a gimp tool (Fox), can out right carry floaties to the ceiling on small stage for very easy kill (Falco), can lock certain character into a certain animation for Waveshining, which can potentially lead to infinites on certain PS1 transformations (Fox), halts air momentum, AND reflects projectile.

Sure the former makes no sense at all.

But the other has so much more silly stuff attached to it with absolutely no risk to it.

This is assuming Non-Melee/PM fans enjoys the shines. I personally don't. I can at least appeciate there's depth to it though.

As a big fan of PM (but ironically not so big a fan of Melee lol) I absolutely hate Shine and ***** about it a good bit and how it is horrible game design in the PM section.

I wanna know what Sakurai was on when he created that move.

 

[Thinkaman]

Let's talk about Meta Knight!

I now think Meta Knight is literally better than everyone thinks, including myself. Don't think too hard about that.

I feel like all of Meta Knight's strengths in Smash 4 are things that will never go out of style, no matter how matchups evolve with experience. (Solid dash options, high grab reward, universal offstage edgeguarding, airspace control, ect.) I see him going nowhere but up. [INSERT SHUTTLE LOOP JOKE HERE]

Also, brief personal experience: MK + Mac is a glorious and beautiful and disgusting team.
MK + LM is as obnoxious as MK vs. LM.

 

[Nu~]

Let's talk about Meta Knight!

I now think Meta Knight is literally better than everyone thinks, including myself. Don't think too hard about that.
.

I'm pretty sure @ warionumbah2 has you beat on that buddy

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

Let's talk about Meta Knight!

I now think Meta Knight is literally better than everyone thinks, including myself. Don't think too hard about that.

I feel like all of Meta Knights strengths in Smash 4 are things that will never go out of style, no matter how matchups evolve with experience. I see him going nowhere but up.

Also, brief personal experience: MK + Mac is a glorious and beautiful and disgusting team. MK + LM is an obnoxious as MK vs. LM.

I remember seeing a custom MK + LM team....

Those Grounding Blow's into MK FSmash kills were freaking beautiful.

 

[Ulevo]

Let's talk about Meta Knight!

I now think Meta Knight is literally better than everyone thinks, including myself. Don't think too hard about that.

I feel like all of Meta Knight's strengths in Smash 4 are things that will never go out of style, no matter how matchups evolve with experience. (Solid dash options, high grab reward, universal offstage edgeguarding, airspace control, ect.) I see him going nowhere but up. [INSERT SHUTTLE LOOP JOKE HERE]

Also, brief personal experience: MK + Mac is a glorious and beautiful and disgusting team.
MK + LM is as obnoxious as MK vs. LM.

The problem with Meta Knight is that his approaches are one dimensional. Anyone who fails to acknowledge this will have a much grander view of how Meta Knight performs, as did I initially. Meta Knight basically operates in neutral by stuttering forward smash, camping with down air, mixing up dash attacks on shield, and trying for dash grabs. Still, the only reliable way for Meta Knight to start offensive pressure is with dash attack or dash grab, meaning that as long as you have a reactionary answer for a crossed up dash attack or space properly to deal with the grab and dash attack, Meta Knight struggles.

If you have a firm grasp of fundamentals, Meta Knight becomes a significantly worse character. If you allow him to get away with his limited approach options, then the rest of his kit (which is really good) shines and nets him wins. Good players have good fundamentals, so I think Meta Knight is capable of doing well at say locals, but not in areas with high competition or at regional/national tournaments.

I guess to add to this, Meta Knight is also not a very momentum based character, but rather a character of attrition and consistency. This is due to the nature of his overall damage. All of his attacks do atrociously low percent except for Mach Tornado, so if you get several reads on your opponent and are "in the advantage" it isn't nearly as rewarding. So instead, you need to basically act like a pseudo-Marth and play perfectly for most of the match, operating on low risk-moderate reward scenarios. This provides an additional problem because it means that you can't gain momentum when ahead within the game, you can only try to tilt your opponent psychologically, and it's much harder to tilt good players. It also means that if you're behind, it's really hard to come back.

 

[DavemanCozy]

It looks like I missed yet another crap-flinger about customs.

This is honestly starting to look like a repeat of Melee vs Project M.

For those who are new members: basically there were Melee players who hated PM for introducing "jank." Some even went so far as to call it "Poisoned Melee." Others absolutely loved it and liked how varied the cast was in terms of viability (even though the game in the end isn't perfectly balanced). This being smashboards, it was filled with many arguments.

There are some people who like the game that has already been given to us without modifying it, while others will prefer using everything the game has to offer. Customs on vs Customs off, I feel this is going to be a debate for a long time to come.

At least the discussions got more civil towards later pages in the thread.

 

[Thinkaman]

I remember seeing a custom MK + LM team....

Those Grounding Blow's into MK FSmash kills were freaking beautiful.

LM jab and MK nado/d-throw are long-duration damage-builders. Normally long duration moves would be a poor trait in teams, but both MK and LM are fantastic "bouncers" ("My partner is busy teaching your friend a lesson; I'm gonna need you to stay over here with me.") with lightning run speed.

LM Jab is a disgusting frame 1 move. But when it now always leads to a Nado? Oh dear.

Edit: And whenever an enemy finally gets LM offstage? ZOOM ZOOM HERE COMES BATMAN.

 

[thehard]

I like how Doubles is a veritable playground of outrageous strategies and team compositions and always has been. And every character is viable.

 

[Thinkaman]

I like how Doubles is a veritable playground of outrageous strategies and team compositions and always has been. And every character is viable.

Well, Diddy & Sheik are just as good. (Others, like Rosalina, are much worse.) It's just that certain lower tiers, like Mac and Zelda, get disproportionately better than in singles.

 

[AccountsDept]

I meant just more tournament players in general, not necessarily the top players.

Not everyone is the forum-poster type. Some people prefer posting an essay on reddit sometimes, or twitter spitballing, or conversing with viewers on twitch. We have to draw from these sources in order to improve the breadth of discussion here, and not keep things so insular (and cyclical as a result).

This is a great clubhouse with a lot of smart and logically-driven people in it, but it's true that not everyone uses this site (an understatement) and especially not this thread, so it's important to respect and include other players when we are able. For example, if someone quotes Nairo or Dabuz from a non-smashboards source, tag them! That way, they can have a chance to potentially clear things up, add more detail, and so forth.

The amount of times people rag on players whom aren't regular smashboards posters, just for something they said, isn't cool. Not tagging them when we can makes it clear we don't treat them the way we treat regular posters here, which ain't cool either. For example, people are hard on M2K - if he was a poster here who posted frequently, I'm sure we'd understand his discussion points better as well as his perspectives. But with twitter quotes, twitch utterings, and similar sources being linked here - we're constantly left with context-less and simplified statements to discuss.

Also, not every high-level player is outspoken enough to speak in length on forums the way many of us here do. This can be seen when you watch streams. If I was streaming and was asked about Peach, I'd go on and on (anyone who watches my youtube channel knows this). But some players utter "She's good, hard though" and continue playing. They may just not be the rambly in-depth dorksters we are. And that's fine.

Overall, while, yeah, staying out of discussion is their choice, I think if a lot of the top players had more vocal input, we'd be a lot better off in discussion, especially people with really "out there" viewpoints like M2K.

 

[DavemanCozy]

I like how Doubles is a veritable playground of outrageous strategies and team compositions

Oh yeah, I forgot to post this here.
+ team, leave it to Ally and Holly to get creative with the Robo-SD:
http://gfycat.com/MadContentHyrax#

 

[NairWizard]

I now think Meta Knight is literally better than everyone thinks, including myself.

Unless you think that he's Top Tier, I still have you beat there.

 

[Strangelove13]

Has everyone seen this? ESAM talks about Heavy Skull Bash and why he thinks it makes custom Pikachu the best character in the game.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3065l7/the_reason_heavy_skull_bash_issilly_by_esam/

 

[bc1910]

I don't feel Diddy is that honest because his pressure is so safe, particularly banana, uair, and fair. To me, an honest character is someone like Yoshi. To get a kill he has to either get a punish or make a read, because his kill moves are otherwise not safe. Sheik isn't very honest either. Bouncing Fish should definitely not be safe on shield.

I agree, I was reading that post and Yoshi came to mind immediately as a much more honest character than Diddy. He's a powerful character but his power is balanced out by an appropriate risk/reward ratio on most of his attacks. Plus, as you said, he requires a solid read to kill at reasonable percents. Diddy just doesn't take the risks one would expect for how easily he can get early kills.

I think Ganondorf is very honest too. Rewards solid fundamentals very well, but can get bodied really quickly if you make too many mistakes. I think this is true of most of the heavies, although many of them have more unique, specialised tools than Ganondorf (especially with customs on).

 

[DavemanCozy]

Has everyone seen this? ESAM talks about Heavy Skull Bash and why he thinks it makes custom Pikachu the best character in the game.

http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3065l7/the_reason_heavy_skull_bash_issilly_by_esam/

It's worth noting that a lot of characters get benefits like this as well.

Fox, for example, gets a guaranteed meteor with Wolf Flash. This is something he lacks, an option to KO his opponent off the bottom of the stage, and it's a fairly powerful meteor too. And also, the sweetspot can be set up fairly easily with F-throw -> Wolf Flash. Add in the fact that side-B doesn't leave you helpless anymore, and you get an option to gimp your opponent by throwing them offstage without leaving you helpless.

The question we should ask ourselves: Is this the kind of game we want to play and watch?

 

[Ffamran]

It's worth noting that a lot of characters get benefits like this as well.

Fox, for example, gets a guaranteed meteor with Wolf Flash. This is something he lacks, an option to KO his opponent off the bottom of the stage, and it's a fairly powerful meteor too. And also, the sweetspot can be set up fairly easily with F-throw -> Wolf Flash. Add in the fact that side-B doesn't leave you helpless anymore, and you get an option to gimp your opponent by throwing them offstage without leaving you helpless.

The question we should ask ourselves: Is this the kind of game we want to play and watch?

If Wolf was in the game and he could do this, would people complain? Probably, but maybe not as much as people saying Wolf Flash is "broken" on Fox.

 

[deepseadiva]

The question we should ask ourselves: Is this the kind of game we want to play and watch?

I would rather play a game where every character feels powerful rather than a select few, yes.

 

[ZarroTsu]

Full-circle to my dumb post from the previous page:

If we made a set on Fox that acted as closely to Wolf as possible, including Wolf Flash, etc. and we named it "Wolf" instead of whatever number set is, would people say "Wolf is S tier" or "Wolf is so much better than Fox"?

(I'm aware this isn't entirely what I implied but I'm going to roll with it since what I implied before, after thinking on it much more, isn't likely to work... Unless it's the only alternative after several months)

 

[warionumbah2]

What holds MK from being top 10 is the lack of sh aerials in neutral,range(people exaggerate this but may as well throw it in) and a projectile. Nothing can be done about the last one despite having 2 projectile moves in his games...

Any character that isn't high tier loses to him imo(not Ganondorf though), its hard to really discuss MK since alot of people haven't played a high level MK(heck not even a mid level MK) nor used him at that level. So its heavily theorycraft when it comes to his potential at national tournaments or MUs on here.

Only his normals have poor damage, smash attacks(not the 1st hit of Down Smash) and his specials(other than drill rush) does nice damage tornado is plain silly and mastering this move sets you apart from other MK users since this gives MK one extra approach option mixed with empty hops. His combo's are rewarding especially when you end it with Tornado that has a user friendly rhythm so you won't hurt yourself mashing the B button, its silly how easy it is to get 22% now after hitting the lab. At low percents dash attack into 4 uairs and shuttleloop gives me 40% and on Town and City and Helbird his combo's are extremely rewarding as it can kill characters early.

Dash attack into tornado works on:

It sickens me that a braindead 30% combo isn't being abused.

The top tiers other than Rosalina and Pikachu are a threat because of their ridiculous neutral game and mid range game, not at all polarizing MUs in there but its something MKs needs to watch out for. Other characters in the roster tend to have not so dominating neutral games and poor mid range game thus MK not having trouble against them. C.Falcon would be a nightmare if he wasn't so helpless off stage against a character with strong edgeguard tools, some saying its a good as Sheiks difference is that his isn't braindead.

MK stays at mid range and takes advantage of his safe DA and Falcon like grab, him being at mid range will force something out of your opponent. He already does well in locals even with Diddy,Rosalina,Sheiks flocking the place we don't know how well he does in nationals yet. Comebacks are possible if you can use Mach Tornado effectively and get everything out of your combo's(Down throw into Grounded Shuttle loop does a solid 20% and its impossible to DI until 80% so long as the MK user angles his Shuttle loop correctly) and convert your advantage state into an edgeguard. He has alot in common with the top tiers ranging from kill setups all the way down to strong disadvantage state but the lack of sh aerials really hurt his neutral game. But again most of the cast aren't that good in neutral compared to the top so its a small loss.

I'd like to see what others think of MK, not in doubles since almost everyone is good in doubles so its not anything special. I think goes well with in doubles imo.