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Character Competitive Impressions

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Vengeance_NS

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So sonic. Anyone see him going down a lot in the future. I feel he is too one dimensional as a character. He seems very good now but people are still figuring out the game. One good thing about sonic tho is he has the ability to play safe and to play super lame. I think he will stuggle with zss rosalina. I don't to much about the Shiek and Diddy mus. I can see him hanging with those 2 characters down the line as well. Maybe once people get better at zoning him he'll struggle against projectile based characters more and more.
 

Trifroze

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Falcon's falling Uair to Knee is indeed a thing that cannot be escaped with DI until about 70-100% depending on the weight of the character. However that's only about 10% lower than the range in which the combo wouldn't work regardless of DI. The reason is that uair creates a ton of hitstun, to the point you can connect a Knee even when you need to use your second jump to get to the uaired opponent. Falcon's dash is so fast that even with the opponent DI'ing away from you, you can still get to them way past the percents that are necessarily for a kill. @victra♥ made a video of it some time ago, as did I along with other setups such as dthrow to Knee. Might as well show it here too:


Uair to Knee is a bigger deal than dthrow to Knee because, while the latter kills characters like Rosalina, Sheik and Pikachu at 35-40% played by inexperienced players, it can be DI'd quite easily. That is not the case with the uair setup. While falling uairs aren't super easy to land on short and/or mobile opponents, I think that if players start to utilize this and get good with hit confirmation, Falcon might have a spot in the top 5 or at least 10. Right now I consider him between 10 and 15.

Also on the topic of online, it's just fine as long as you live within about 300 mile radius from your opponent and neither of you use fisher price routers. There is input lag but it's nothing that keeps you from practicing setups, combos, reads and other important fundamental things. The only thing it really affects is reaction because there will be about 50-150ms lag.

If I'm not entirely wrong, Ally and Salem started off playing online for example (might be confusing Ally with Axelol, it was way back).
 
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Appledees

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What's the general consensus on Megaman at the moment?

I'm glad people are seeing that he's not bottom/low tier like when the game came out but is he good enough to stand up to some of high/top tiers and how would he even place on the tier list when things establishes
 

M-Z

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What's the general consensus on Megaman at the moment?

I'm glad people are seeing that he's not bottom/low tier like when the game came out but is he good enough to stand up to some of high/top tiers and how would he even place on the tier list when things establishes
I love mega man, I've been using him to beat annoying lucario players in for glory. I think once people start to figure out how useful his projectiles can be at pressuring people he will start to be used more.
 

Swamp Sensei

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What's the general consensus on Megaman at the moment?

I'm glad people are seeing that he's not bottom/low tier like when the game came out but is he good enough to stand up to some of high/top tiers and how would he even place on the tier list when things establishes
He's certainly annoying to fight.

He has all the tools to lock a lot of characters down.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Welcome to my misadventure as Falco... I can play well as everyone else, but once I pick Falco, everything just becomes a fight against the ability to move. All momentum, all spacing, all inputs, everything becomes null and void as Falco. It's like Falco was designed to be Lag's -bleep-.


You haven't played Wi-Fi until you played as Falco. You get to fight one extra, OP, invincible opponent called Lag who nips at your heels to -bleep- you off and then slams a telephone pole onto your groin when you feel like you have any advantage against your other, real, human opponent. -bleep-, Lag. I hate it, so much.

Why can't we have servers hosted? Tons of games do it and players even voluntarily host servers!
peer to peer is simply the staple of fighting genre. hosting would be worth less in a 1v1 enivornment. but qll the other modes i could kinda see ur point but once again my internets really good so if i got any issuee@s i can litterally say its my opponent lol.
@ cAm8ooo cAm8ooo
geez where did i say he lacks kill options.
What i am saying is all those moves suck in advantageous state. Yoshi gets 90% percent of his kills from neutral. Witch is not entirely bad but having to make reads in up airs and smash attacks is eons harder to do in top competitive play. also having low off stage flexibility hurts alot. since he cant go deep making recovering pretty easy. yoshi has no grab set ups to kills either. also the crappy grab does not help.
witch is why hes out side the top 10 range for me. hell if we are talking pure read based kills mario is more threating.
 
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Antonykun

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Been hearing bad things about the Mii Swordfighters, can someone tell me what's so bad about them? I don't really play with Miis that often, so I wouldn't know.
The Swordfighter has plenty of weaknesses and non strengths that made most people write them of as horrible characters with very little testing.
Here are some of their weaknesses:
-Low mobility (taller than short Miis)
-Laggy Moves (Tall Miis): This means very few combos
-Poor Range (Shorter than Default Miis)
-Horrible Recovery (a bit mitigated by Airborne Assault)
-Bad Killing Moves that take hard reads to use)
-Most moves require some serious precision
-Cannot be used in for Glory

But at the same time the Swordfighter has some crazy strength
-Ridiculous u-air: deals 16 damage,disjointed, fast and can kill at 100%
-Kirby's D-air spike (not as good though)
-Shuriken of Light Camping (SoL is better than uncharged Water Shuriken)
-Jab Combos/U-tilt Combo (Short Miis)
-Good/Great/Amazing Mobility (Thin/Short/Short-Thin Miis)
-Good Range (Tall Mii)
-Strong Footsie Game
-A Reflector (this is the one everyone agrees with)

While there is plenty wrong with the Swordfighter there is also plenty right with them too. I genuinely believe that the swordfighter can go very far with the right skills.
 

|RK|

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I love mega man, I've been using him to beat annoying lucario players in for glory. I think once people start to figure out how useful his projectiles can be at pressuring people he will start to be used more.
How does that help? Once Aura is high enough, Lucario outprioritizes everything MM has. Crash Bomber is a free DT.
 

HeavyLobster

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Is Zelda actually complete garbage or is she merely subpar and the Zelda boards are just really salty? I've never seen that much negativity on one character board.
 

Aunt Jemima

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So is she bad enough to be considered the consensus worst character? Where on the scale of badness does she rank?
I'm certainly not the one to answer this, but I'd say no. I believe that the worst character is tied between Samus and Mii Swordfighter, or something like tthat
 

HeavyLobster

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So Sakurai has once again decided that Zelda can only be good in Smash when she dresses like a man, while the only way for Samus to move up the tier list is to take off her clothes.
 
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So sonic. Anyone see him going down a lot in the future. I feel he is too one dimensional as a character. He seems very good now but people are still figuring out the game. One good thing about sonic tho is he has the ability to play safe and to play super lame. I think he will stuggle with zss rosalina. I don't to much about the Shiek and Diddy mus. I can see him hanging with those 2 characters down the line as well. Maybe once people get better at zoning him he'll struggle against projectile based characters more and more.
His cuh-razy juggle/combo abilities I believe would make him pretty formidable against smaller and lighter opponents, but against heavy characters like Bowser, King Dedede, and Dankey Kang I've noticed he struggles pretty badly. He just doesn't have the kill power it takes to effectively take these guys out. I think the only kill move that has ever worked against my DDD was his side-smash and I was at a pretty damn high %. All it really takes is a good couple hits from the heavy character and it's even if not even more. Also, his move priority is kind of trash...

I think he's a very good character, but against a good heavy-character player, you might want a counter-pick.

But that is just my experience. I don't know too much about excessive projectile players since I don't play much of them.
 

cAm8ooo

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peer to peer is simply the staple of fighting genre. hosting would be worth less in a 1v1 enivornment. but qll the other modes i could kinda see ur point but once again my internets really good so if i got any issuee@s i can litterally say its my opponent lol.
@ cAm8ooo cAm8ooo
geez where did i say he lacks kill options.
What i am saying is all those moves suck in advantageous state. Yoshi gets 90% percent of his kills from neutral. Witch is not entirely bad but having to make reads in up airs and smash attacks is eons harder to do in top competitive play. also having low off stage flexibility hurts alot. since he cant go deep making recovering pretty easy. yoshi has no grab set ups to kills either. also the crappy grab does not help.
witch is why hes out side the top 10 range for me. hell if we are talking pure read based kills mario is more threating.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't see why yoshi relies any more on getting a kill from neutral than any of the other top 7. If you get hit with uptilt you are dead as it links with upair very easily and at multiple percents. Yoshis jab is incredibly fast and links with upsmash. You can create frame traps with up air or combo from hit confirm. One missed tech on fair and you are dead from upair. Yoshis neutral game is one the best in the entire game as well so you are much more likely to put yourself in an advantageous position.

Also, if you run off the ledge and jump cancel your up b the moment you slide off you will maintain your momentum going downward while placing an egg and can double jump with your super armour while throwing a nair. You can also use your up b to get vertical height again. He has incredible tools below stage and is still pretty safe.

I think the problem right now is that there just aren't too many good American yoshis and so not many people know much about his more advanced play.
 

Yokoblue

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I guess what I'm saying is I don't see why yoshi relies any more on getting a kill from neutral than any of the other top 7. If you get hit with uptilt you are dead as it links with upair very easily and at multiple percents. Yoshis jab is incredibly fast and links with upsmash. You can create frame traps with up air or combo from hit confirm. One missed tech on fair and you are dead from upair. Yoshis neutral game is one the best in the entire game as well so you are much more likely to put yourself in an advantageous position.

Also, if you run off the ledge and jump cancel your up b the moment you slide off you will maintain your momentum going downward while placing an egg and can double jump with your super armour while throwing a nair. You can also use your up b to get vertical height again. He has incredible tools below stage and is still pretty safe.

I think the problem right now is that there just aren't too many good American yoshis and so not many people know much about his more advanced play.
I agree with most of what you said but playing as yoshi I can't jab into upsmash without being really on the opponent when I jab. You can't move forward while doing it either since its no longer a true combo then. It works on maybe 10 characters in the cast without being really close to the character when you jab but doesnt work on people it would help. Unless you have a way to tell me im doing it wrong...
 

mountain_tiger

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Is Zelda actually complete garbage or is she merely subpar and the Zelda boards are just really salty? I've never seen that much negativity on one character board.
She's not complete garbage, but pretty lacking compared to a huge chunk of the cast.

On a side note, I'm genuinely beginning to believe that Duck Hunt may be low tier. They have tons of blind spots in their air game, their smashes are rather unreliable, and their recovery is one of the easiest in the game to gimp. Their keep-out ability is good for sure, but I don't think that's enough to cover up their huge flaws...
 

Road Death Wheel

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I guess what I'm saying is I don't see why yoshi relies any more on getting a kill from neutral than any of the other top 7. If you get hit with uptilt you are dead as it links with upair very easily and at multiple percents. Yoshis jab is incredibly fast and links with upsmash. You can create frame traps with up air or combo from hit confirm. One missed tech on fair and you are dead from upair. Yoshis neutral game is one the best in the entire game as well so you are much more likely to put yourself in an advantageous position.

Also, if you run off the ledge and jump cancel your up b the moment you slide off you will maintain your momentum going downward while placing an egg and can double jump with your super armour while throwing a nair. You can also use your up b to get vertical height again. He has incredible tools below stage and is still pretty safe.

I think the problem right now is that there just aren't too many good American yoshis and so not many people know much about his more advanced play.
yoshi neutral game is undoubtably the best neutral game. the problem lies that the netral game is generaly filled with pokes and reads. being able to effectivlty do somthing in advantage is important expecially so the character does not have to be dependent on read kills. but most of yoshis options in advantage ....well reset to neutral. and once again no grab game.
thats huge. at least samus can follow up her tether laggy grab.

also dont interpret this as yoshi is bad. because no hes not hes great actually. i just see him more with pit and mario than shiek and pika.
 

cAm8ooo

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I agree with most of what you said but playing as yoshi I can't jab into upsmash without being really on the opponent when I jab. You can't move forward while doing it either since its no longer a true combo then. It works on maybe 10 characters in the cast without being really close to the character when you jab but doesnt work on people it would help. Unless you have a way to tell me im doing it wrong...
It seems to only work as a true combo at certain percents. The timing can be strict but I've had a lot of success with it against great players. Mix it up a lot as well. If the opponent is able to airdodge then bait it and punish with fsmash. If they have a fast nair than mix it up with shield and down b. If you get your opponent with jab you are in a really good position.

@ Road Death Wheel Road Death Wheel , I can see where you are coming from. I just feel as if a top level yoshi has more than just reads but a lot of American yoshis just aren't utilizing them so it's hard to know. I guess time will tell.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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It seems to only work as a true combo at certain percents. The timing can be strict but I've had a lot of success with it against great players. Mix it up a lot as well. If the opponent is able to airdodge then bait it and punish with fsmash. If they have a fast nair than mix it up with shield and down b. If you get your opponent with jab you are in a really good position.

@ Road Death Wheel Road Death Wheel , I can see where you are coming from. I just feel as if a top level yoshi has more than just reads but a lot of American yoshis just aren't utilizing them so it's hard to know. I guess time will tell.
thats the beauty of a developing meta.
 

Ffamran

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She's not complete garbage, but pretty lacking compared to a huge chunk of the cast.

On a side note, I'm genuinely beginning to believe that Duck Hunt may be low tier. They have tons of blind spots in their air game, their smashes are rather unreliable, and their recovery is one of the easiest in the game to gimp. Their keep-out ability is good for sure, but I don't think that's enough to cover up their huge flaws...
Is competitive Team Smashes popular? I think Duck Hunt and someone else would be a pain since Duck Hunt would zone and mess with you a lot while the other fighter would just destroy you. Hmm, Duck Hunt and Ganondorf as a team? Duck Hunt stalls and prevents the other from doing stuff while Ganondorf just waltzes in and lays a beatdown.
 

NairWizard

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I don't think that Yoshi has an amazing neutral game. Eggs are strong, but his other options are vulnerable to proper spacing (more than most characters), and when Yoshi uses eggs he often sacrifices stage control by dashing back or jumping into the air.

If you're good with movement, you can avoid the eggs and take the part of the stage that Yoshi isn't covering (something which you can't do against true top-tier projectiles like needles, Thoron, and Thunderjolt: it's coming right across the ground toward you, so you have to block it or jump over it, putting yourself in a bad spot). The arc of Yoshi's eggs hurts more than helps sometimes, though I agree that they are really dominant in certain matchups.

f-air is probably Yoshi's best attack in neutral. 14% damage and thus safe on block when spaced? that's pretty awesome. His other attacks are kind of commitments though. Notice how n-air has a lingering hitbox with not much range? You can hit him out if he misses. His other aerials like b-air and d-air as well as his dash attack fall prey to the same issue. This makes matchups like Sheik very hard for Yoshi because Sheik can just safely f-air outside of Yoshi's aerial range, and then when Yoshi commits to using one of his aerials a second f-air is coming his way, or needles.

Grabbing is also a big part of neutral and we've already covered Yoshi's grab. Though, in fairness, when Yoshi is jumping at you, the command grab does give him an option that most characters don't have when airborne. That's pretty useful. I'd still rather have a regular grab to play the neutral game with, though, especially in fast-paced matches where both characters are dashing around and spacing quick aerials, leaving little room for a slower move with a questionable hitbox.

Yoshi really excels at CQC with his quick jab, n-air, and down-b. He's pretty good at resetting to a neutral position from disadvantage, because he has some good "get off of me" moves, and excellent aerial mobility. The armor on his double jump, the height of that jump, the little hop from the eggs, b-reverses, and the momentum from Lick if customs are on all combine to make him very hard to keep trapped, too. But I don't think that this translates into a great neutral game.
 
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Jabejazz

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His cuh-razy juggle/combo abilities I believe would make him pretty formidable against smaller and lighter opponents, but against heavy characters like Bowser, King Dedede, and Dankey Kang I've noticed he struggles pretty badly. He just doesn't have the kill power it takes to effectively take these guys out.

I think he's a very good character, but against a good heavy-character player, you might want a counter-pick.

But that is just my experience. I don't know too much about excessive projectile players since I don't play much of them.
It's probably the other way around. Smaller characters can wiggle their way out of a spindash, and lighter ones do not get comboed as easily. Heavies get combo'ed to no end, and can't properly punish Sonic spindashes reliably.

Not a one sided matchup by any means, but I really doubt they "win" the matchup, let alone being a counter to Sonic.
 

Ffamran

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It's probably the other way around. Smaller characters can wiggle their way out of a spindash, and lighter ones do not get comboed as easily. Heavies get combo'ed to no end, and can't properly punish Sonic spindashes reliably.

Not a one sided matchup by any means, but I really doubt they "win" the matchup, let alone being a counter to Sonic.
What about Ike and his Ragnell? I think his Dtilt, Down Smash, Ftilt, Nair, Bair, or any of his other slow attacks that are well read would stop Sonic in his tracks.

Ganondorf could possibly be fine against Sonic even with his shorter range since his Dtilt, Ftilt, and Jab are fast enough to poke Sonic.
 

meleebrawler

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It's probably the other way around. Smaller characters can wiggle their way out of a spindash, and lighter ones do not get comboed as easily. Heavies get combo'ed to no end, and can't properly punish Sonic spindashes reliably.

Not a one sided matchup by any means, but I really doubt they "win" the matchup, let alone being a counter to Sonic.
Dedede does though, since he can just Inhale most of
Sonic's approaches, while throwing out stationary
gordos (holding back) to keep him honest.
 

warionumbah2

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So sonic. Anyone see him going down a lot in the future. I feel he is too one dimensional as a character. He seems very good now but people are still figuring out the game. One good thing about sonic tho is he has the ability to play safe and to play super lame. I think he will stuggle with zss rosalina. I don't to much about the Shiek and Diddy mus. I can see him hanging with those 2 characters down the line as well. Maybe once people get better at zoning him he'll struggle against projectile based characters more and more.
I agree i take notes from Boss with his Luigi always beating Sonic.
 

san.

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An annoying issue with Sonic is that successfully reading the attack just ends up with a clank half the time, which sucks, so it's a little more than getting the hitbox to reach him.
 

Ffamran

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An annoying issue with Sonic is that successfully reading the attack just ends up with a clank half the time, which sucks, so it's a little more than getting the hitbox to reach him.
Really? Aren't there a couple of frames where Spin Dash and Spin Charge aren't active? I know it's the same with Egg Roll. It's only when Sonic and Yoshi turn, but it's still something.

I know Falco's Reflector destroys Spin Dash and Spin Charge, but I guess applying common sense of slamming a two-handed sword onto a blue hedgehog doesn't work with video games...
 

HeavyLobster

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An annoying issue with Sonic is that successfully reading the attack just ends up with a clank half the time, which sucks, so it's a little more than getting the hitbox to reach him.
This. This is so annoying whenever I play vs. Sonic as Ganon, as most stuff that isn't D-tilt winds up clanking with him.
Ganondorf could possibly be fine against Sonic even with his shorter range since his Dtilt, Ftilt, and Jab are fast enough to poke Sonic.
They're still laggy enough to be punished if you guess wrong. I'm pretty confident that Sonic wins this one, though Ganon still hits like a bus full of fat people and has a chance for that reason alone.
 

Shaya

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So I recently thought I'd redo this character archetyping/classing exercise now that I have some solid WiiU time and there's also been a balance patch that pushed some questionable characters into various spots (Wiifit, Lucario, Shulk, and a general reshuffle of the 3 latter categories). The precision / spacing grouping looks a bit large, but it also has two sets of clones within it and it has some shaky definitions within say MK (he seems designed to be rush down, and his range is shorter than in Brawl, but I think those nerfs priorities even more precision).

Heavy CQC/Grappler: :4bowser::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4ganondorf:
Heavy Hybrids: :4falcon::4myfriends::4link::4wario2::4yoshi:
CQC "Brawler": :4drmario::4kirby::4littlemac::4luigi::4mario::4miibrawl::4wiifit:
Precision / Spacing: :4darkpit::4gaw::4jigglypuff::4lucario::4lucina::4marth::4metaknight::4peach::4pit::4shulk::4zss::4miisword:
Zone Breaking / Rush Down: :4falco::4fox::4greninja::4ness::4palutena::4pikachu::4sheik: :4sonic:
Projectile Zoning Fighters: :4lemmy::4diddy::4megaman::4miigun::4pacman::4robinm::4tlink:
[Long] Ranged Zoners: :4duckhunt::4alph::4rob::rosalina::4samus::4villager::4zelda:

Heavy... grapplers. These characters tend to not die, deal extremely high amounts of damage in single hits, and tend to fail in neutral, but once an opportunity arises they can wreck havoc (as close quarter combat fighters indicate). Why have these separate to the other CQCs? Well their weight just sets them apart in how they're played and also what characters they tend to do well against. Precision characters tend to have range/safety to beat CQCs in neutral and their lighter weights decrease risk for them getting a kill, but for the heavies they have similar or comparative range and take a lot of effort to kill, exactly what precision characters dislike (even if they can shut them down in neutral).

Heavy Hybrids is a cop out grouping kinda like Heavy CQC. With the exception of Falcon, I tend to see similar play styles or designs for these characters exist elsewhere in the cast but they have a heavier spec than their counter part. These characters tend to not have frame data that is much worse than non-heavy selves, but contrast in one field noticeably to the other. Falcon is a precision / rush down character who happens to be heavy, Ike is a very heavy swordsman with great mobility specs but slightly worse frame data than Marth in some areas, Link is obvious, Wario is a heavy grappler but has the abysmal range but with Jigglypuff aerial mobility, Yoshi has a much similar 'stance' to Fox than in his previous games, outweighs him by a lot and has some high/top tier mobility specs.

The Brawlers consist of what should be the obvious. These characters get the most out of things up close and tend to be forced to approach. Like the heavies they should be destroying you once they get in. WiiFit is still the odd character out in this game in my eyes, I still don't really know but she hits so hard with her attacks and most of her set ups are close-range.

The precision / spacing characters are varied in tools but tend to have similar design points and weaknesses. They're usually light weight, have laggy or risky kill options (i.e. lack kill set ups) but tend to excel in shutting down characters from setting up and can rely on mobility and poke moves to approach and pressure. Their ability to catch up in a deficit is pretty low, usually relying on pressure to coerce favourable trades, but a camping/stock lead opponent can usually play safely in a way that requires commitment, something that they tend not to be able to withstand multiple punishments for.

Zone breaking/rushdown had a few adjustments. Often accompanied by tools that shut down or hinder projectilers (reflectors, tjolt traveling around walls/etc) and can rush down and punish an opponent who's open or "slow" reliably (dash attacks, grabs), usually due to their zoning tools being made negligible. Diddy Kong and Ness are awkward, in Diddy's case most of his zone breaking/rush down is dash grab and side-b, both amazing tools for aggression mind you, but his neutral game based around projectiles seems more prioritised than just bum rushing them with grabs, I pushed him into the zoning fighter spec. Ness is also on the fence, he has a lot of ways to oust zoning opponents and amazing spacing tools, side-b and up-b aren't as focused on as his aerial and grab game are though.

Projectile Zoning Fighters... a totally new thing... kinda. Mid-Range zoners from previous iterations mostly, the notion of "they throw something at you so they can go in". They usually require some setting up first, but throw 100 hitboxes towards you once they're ready. Stopping them from setting up plus the ability (usually patience) to deal with the onslaught safely when its unavoidable is pretty vital to succeeding.

Long Range Zoners, the characters who essentially should be looking for centre stage and not moving for an entire match if they can get away with it. While they may need to go in for the kill or aren't too great at getting them, they tend to be comfortable with (and rely on) opponent's approaching. Their tools hit at long ranges and they're hard to approach, but they often suck at approaching themselves (no safe and fast tools while moving).

--

Anyway I'm going to do an exercise sometime soon where I'm going to -gasp- rank each character within the aforementioned categories and describe why.
 
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Chuva

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Kinda late for the Zelda talk, but anyway: she has potential, but some aspects of her design can be frustrating to understand and while she's usually regarded as a defensive, reaction-based character, I have a hard time figuring out how in practice some of her tools correspond to such archetype.

Din's Fire is probably one of those moves that were balanced with 4+ players battle in mind or something, because it's always failed it purpose in 1v1 against any half-competent player. Phantom would have potential if you could store it, but as it stands, it's just another sub-par channeling projectile with a combination of predictability and notorious ending lag.

Her Nair is an ok move but it's kinda unfitting for a character that wants to play around baiting and punishing approaches: a multi-hitting move with a not-always reliable hitbox (especially against short characters), can only be used as follow up at very early %, with irrelevant knockback and significant landing lag if not auto-canceled. When you compare it to Ness' Nair that has a deceptively big hitbox, can be used twice out of a short hop, can follow-up throws at a bigger % range and has respectable knockback and kill power, it makes Zelda's Nair look really underwhelming for the reward it gives and the purpose it should serve.

Then you have her Usmash that everyone knows the problem. At least Fsmash is very safe on block.

This iteration gave Zelda some legit setups. Her Dtilt and dash game can both lead to traps with her more dangerous moves, but even then, she has trouble approaching some characters and can't really force people to come at her either, making the whole point of a defensive-punish gameplay kinda moot.

These are my problems with her, but outside of that, I don't really buy into the whole salt some Zelda players have. She has some great tools such as Nayru, Farore, lightning kicks, Dsmash, the abovementioned Dtilt and others, add in her respectable kill power and she can at least compete in a broader range of matchups, as opposed to Hyrule Tier Zelda from the previous game.
 

NairWizard

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Quick Attack is the best way to punish Sonic imo (even with customs on). He misses a spindash? He's getting QA'ed. He's gotta call your jump and hit you to prevent it if you are on point.

ESAM was saying earlier that Quick Attack is the best move in smash 4. I disagree because Palutena's Super Speed is super good, but with customs off that's not an unfair statement. Pika hype.

Though I regret to say that I am learning Sheik. Know thy enemy and all that.
 

mountain_tiger

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Is competitive Team Smashes popular? I think Duck Hunt and someone else would be a pain since Duck Hunt would zone and mess with you a lot while the other fighter would just destroy you. Hmm, Duck Hunt and Ganondorf as a team? Duck Hunt stalls and prevents the other from doing stuff while Ganondorf just waltzes in and lays a beatdown.
Even then, DH is pretty lacking.

Folks have this idea in their heads that DH is really hard to get in on, but that's only really true of some of the cast. Any character with good aerial mobility that isn't too big can actually get around his Trick Shot and Clay Shooting without too much trouble. Trick Shot would be utterly broken if someone like, say, Diddy Kong had it... but DH just doesn't have the tools to capitalise on it very much. Their tilts are fairly laggy, yet have unspectacular range and power, and (save for UTilt, which has poor range) don't set up for anything much.

DH also has trouble setting up kill moves well. All three smash attacks have good kill power... but have that awkward issue where sometimes, for no apparent reason, the last hit will whiff. Bair has an awkward hitbox, and is incredibly telegraphed. Uair is easily one of DH's best moves, but even that has issues where the first two hits will connect, and the third one won't. That level of unreliability is never good.

And the recovery, just... wow. It's like the bad parts of Dedede's Super Jump, mixed with the bad parts of Brawl Zelda's Farore's Wind, minus any sort of hitbox to dissuade opponents from attacking you. If they're knocked off-stage in such a way that they can't get back with just a mid-air jump, there is no good reason that they shouldn't lose the stock right there. And their aerials, as mentioned, have huge blindspots, so any aerial that hits at least somewhat diagonally works incredibly well against them off-stage.

DH still fares decently against bulky, slow characters, but against the cast as a whole? Not so much.
 

Ffamran

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Even then, DH is pretty lacking.

Folks have this idea in their heads that DH is really hard to get in on, but that's only really true of some of the cast. Any character with good aerial mobility that isn't too big can actually get around his Trick Shot and Clay Shooting without too much trouble. Trick Shot would be utterly broken if someone like, say, Diddy Kong had it... but DH just doesn't have the tools to capitalise on it very much. Their tilts are fairly laggy, yet have unspectacular range and power, and (save for UTilt, which has poor range) don't set up for anything much.

DH also has trouble setting up kill moves well. All three smash attacks have good kill power... but have that awkward issue where sometimes, for no apparent reason, the last hit will whiff. Bair has an awkward hitbox, and is incredibly telegraphed. Uair is easily one of DH's best moves, but even that has issues where the first two hits will connect, and the third one won't. That level of unreliability is never good.

And the recovery, just... wow. It's like the bad parts of Dedede's Super Jump, mixed with the bad parts of Brawl Zelda's Farore's Wind, minus any sort of hitbox to dissuade opponents from attacking you. If they're knocked off-stage in such a way that they can't get back with just a mid-air jump, there is no good reason that they shouldn't lose the stock right there. And their aerials, as mentioned, have huge blindspots, so any aerial that hits at least somewhat diagonally works incredibly well against them off-stage.

DH still fares decently against bulky, slow characters, but against the cast as a whole? Not so much.
Eh, although it's early, but we talk only about 1v1 stuff and never 2v2. I just remember NinjaLink TS saying that some customs aren't great for 1v1, but in a 2v2, they might be great.
 

Locke 06

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Even then, DH is pretty lacking.

Folks have this idea in their heads that DH is really hard to get in on, but that's only really true of some of the cast. Any character with good aerial mobility that isn't too big can actually get around his Trick Shot and Clay Shooting without too much trouble. Trick Shot would be utterly broken if someone like, say, Diddy Kong had it... but DH just doesn't have the tools to capitalise on it very much. Their tilts are fairly laggy, yet have unspectacular range and power, and (save for UTilt, which has poor range) don't set up for anything much.

DH also has trouble setting up kill moves well. All three smash attacks have good kill power... but have that awkward issue where sometimes, for no apparent reason, the last hit will whiff. Bair has an awkward hitbox, and is incredibly telegraphed. Uair is easily one of DH's best moves, but even that has issues where the first two hits will connect, and the third one won't. That level of unreliability is never good.

And the recovery, just... wow. It's like the bad parts of Dedede's Super Jump, mixed with the bad parts of Brawl Zelda's Farore's Wind, minus any sort of hitbox to dissuade opponents from attacking you. If they're knocked off-stage in such a way that they can't get back with just a mid-air jump, there is no good reason that they shouldn't lose the stock right there. And their aerials, as mentioned, have huge blindspots, so any aerial that hits at least somewhat diagonally works incredibly well against them off-stage.

DH still fares decently against bulky, slow characters, but against the cast as a whole? Not so much.
Folks have this idea that DH sits on the edge and sets up camp. Duck Hunt can be played as a trap character that says, "You're on the edge looking straight at a can. If you neutral get up, the can is going to explode; if you jump, I have a disjointed FAir/Bair that will get you back off stage; if you roll, I can read it with a smash; if you ledge drop, I could drop the can off stage to hit you." He has these things on stage too.

He can also be played aggressively with his safe on shield FAirs/BAirs. His grab is pretty darn good too. He's got a stronger villager NAir that can be used for kills and the can does serious work off stage due to the amount of control you have of it. (Edit: Clay Pigeon presents an opportunity to FAir/usmash/grab/shenanigan. He can capitalize on it decently by delaying the shots so you're in hitstun for longer)

He has weaknesses, so does ALL OF THE CAST (sans Pits IMO with limited experience), but he has strengths that aren't just "sit in a corner and stop your approach."

RE 2v2: There's just so much to talk about with too many variables. Shadow Sneak can be a very good tool in 2v2, but much less so in 1v1.
 
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