Character Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

Numerically Marth kills earlier than the majority of the cast. Add rage to the mix and you have a character that can clench a stock as early as 40%.

Why would I kid about empirical evidence?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yeah but he has no way of actually landing these hits unless the opponent airdodges right into tipper fsmash range. He has "potential" but it's unrealistically hard to make practical use of it. You're really just bugging me about semantics here because the word "potential" isn't quite accurate.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Yeah but he has no way of actually landing these hits unless the opponent airdodges right into tipper fsmash range. He has "potential" but it's unrealistically hard to make practical use of it. You're really just bugging me about semantics here because the word "potential" isn't quite accurate.

marth f smash hits through platforms on battlefield and is an easy tipper. killing at 40 - 60 % is a big deal regardless. expecially on a move thats not to bad to land like f smash

 

[Emblem Lord]

Create a land trap situation, stutter step f-smash. Block an attack with enough recovery, shield drop f-smash. In any footsie scenario where Marth is at low percent or his opponent attempts a SH aerial and risk vs reward favors him. And of course, you could just make a hard read. And whiff punishing during footsies. That's definitely a thing.

Also first two hit of upward Dancing Blade is a nice potential set-up that let's Marth follow his opponents actions well and either pursue or attempt a trap.

It's certainly not just one situation.

 

[ZHMT]

Technically he's right, his kill potential is very high, assuming he means he has the ability to land extremely high knockback moves, even if its difficult or can't be setup into.

Although there are plenty of non-heavyweights with stronger ko options by that definition. GnW's number 9 judgement is stronger than Fsmash. Puffs Rest is stronger than Fsmash as well and is actually usable without a roulette wheel and has practical use. I bet Kirbys hammer is stronger too. Yes I'm nitpicking, but yeah I had to.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Except a 9 judgement isn't based on just reaction or skill. There is a math formula within the game that determines how often you can get that i.e you need some luck. Jiggs rest is legit. Kirby's hammer...eh how fast is it? If its faster then say 12 frames I can see it having some potential set-ups.

 

[Jabejazz]

Kirby's hammer is so laggy it can't punish a shieldbreak.

Also I doubt it kills early uncharged.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Kirby's hammer can punish a shield break easily.
It seems 11 frames from release but there's some kind of initial part that makes it laggier then 11 frames uncharged.

Still its unpractical. Only hammer worth **** to me is hammer bash. Default hammer is less viable then rest.

Knee can kill at 40/60?

 

[FlareHabanero]

Maybe Hammer Flip might be more useful on teams where a partner can help set up?

Sort of grasping at straws, since it's still shoddy there too.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Speaking of Knee, Chrono thnx for reminding me to check CF's frame data. His land trap game is ****** mode thnx to low recovery uair he just needs a good kill option and I think Knee of Justice is it. Need to experiment. Wanna help my friend level up with him.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Listen.
Hammer flip can eat a ****.
There's only three ways to get that a solid hit.
Stone, shield break.
Copied shieldbreaker, shield break.
Whiffed Rest.
Or Ganon utilting in the wrong direction lol.

Kirby's strength is in his low lag normals.

Edit: I've heard Knee can be true combod into from Uair. I'm praying for my safety that it is false.

 

[ZHMT]

Except a 9 judgement isn't based on just reaction or skill. There is a math formula within the game that determines how often you can get that i.e you need some luck. Jiggs rest is legit. Kirby's hammer...eh how fast is it? If its faster then say 12 frames I can see it having some potential set-ups.

Oh I concur, I was just bringing up things that have potentially more knockback. Hammer is slow and weaker than Fsmash tipped, I was referring to the charged hammer nobody should get hit by.

Marths Fsmash is definitely usable competitively, perhaps there's a lot of things you know about how Marth works that most don't that changes your perspective of how the move works? To me dropping shield into a Fsmash is the only thing that seems iffy, but I guess is possible. That's like 17 frames minimum if they are above Marth, which isn't punishing lag usually.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Edit: I've heard Knee can be true combod into from Uair. I'm praying for my safety that it is false.

It's true, at least according to training mode. It can be kind of tricky to pull off in a match, though.

 

[Thinkaman]

Shameless self-promotion: I went and got all the data for you guys again.

 

[ZHMT]

How strong is Warios strongest waft? I'm actually unsure of his weight though if were trying to compare to non heavies.

Also I confirm, Falcons Knee can KO around 40-50 if he has a lot of rage. Supposedly he can also dthrow into it as well, rage and character weight dependant.

Edit: I posted this during Thinkamans post, not as bad as it looks

 

[Shaya]

So about Pikachu vs Sheik, so-so evidence but ZeRo just beat ESAM in a wifi event using Sheik 2-0. ZeRo thinks Sheik wins the match up mostly due to her having the tools to outcamp Pikachu then having better range on the approach.

 

[Emblem Lord]

So a top tier character with top tier tools beat a high tier character with high tier tools.

Hmmm.

But in all seriousness, is the match even debatable?

 

[DanGR]

Not to mention Pikachu's gimp game (one of his biggest strengths imo) is essentially nullified by Sheik's wide array of recovery options.

 

[Nobie]

Zucco's Mega Man also took out ESAM's Pikachu 2-0, though I don't know if it's that Mega Man actually has an advantage or if ESAM's playstyle didn't work well against tornadoes tornadoes tornadoes.

 

[san.]

I think lag really disrupts any meaningful conclusions you can make, honestly.

 

[Psyant]

I think it'd be best to take WiFi results with a grain of salt, especially where Pikachu is concerned . Lag hurts him significantly more than most characters imo. QA is an easy SD if the game even slightly stutters as you start it up, and like Esam said on Twitter, he ended up trying to recover on stage too much because of that (and getting killed for it), rather than going for the ledge, which is more risky for SDs in a laggy match. It's a lot harder to get good followups online as well, which was obvious in Esam's play compared to his usual standards.

I think if you look at Sky's offline tournament and this one Esam's play was on completely different levels. Wifi is just a different monster.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

You haven't WiFi johned until you face a Samus.

.

 

[NairWizard]

Zero won, that's all there is to it. ESAM can say all he wants about lag affecting him, but to be completely fair, lag hits Sheik pretty hard, too. You need to have precise microspacing to play as a top-level Sheik.

But I don't think there's any conclusive evidence for Sheik beating Pikachu. An even matchup doesn't mean that neither side ever loses. Would have to watch the set to understand more though (see option selects etc.).

ZeRo thinks Sheik wins the match up mostly due to her having the tools to outcamp Pikachu then having better range on the approach.

Use a lot of crouch vs. Sheik and she won't outcamp you. Tjolts are also better for approaching. Do needles let you approach? Kind of. They do encourage shielding (or crouching/f-airing into the ground). But tjolts are better for it.

F-air does outrange Pikachu's f-air, though Pikachu's f-air and up-air are disjointed. D-tilt has more range than anything Sheik has on the ground short of f-smash.

Not to mention Pikachu's gimp game (one of his biggest strengths imo) is essentially nullified by Sheik's wide array of recovery options.

This is true, and is the reason that I think that Pikachu killing earlier doesn't matter as much as it would otherwise, since he has a harder time building up damage without offstage options. Do note that Sheik's own pretty decent offstage game is nullified by Pikachu's recovery too, though. You won't really be landing offstage bouncing fishes or f-airs on Pikachu.

Zucco's Mega Man also took out ESAM's Pikachu 2-0, though I don't know if it's that Mega Man actually has an advantage or if ESAM's playstyle didn't work well against tornadoes tornadoes tornadoes.

In my opinion, Megaman vs. Pikachu is in Megaman's favor. Again, I don't think that this set proves anything. Just my thoughts on the MU. Megaman has a lot of disjoints.

You haven't WiFi johned until you face a Samus.




And I bet everyone instantly formed a picture of a ball in their mind when I said that.

Yes, but that ball was blue and spiky.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

WiFi sonics aren't a thing. They move too slow in 10 frames a second.

 

[NairWizard]

WiFi sonics aren't a thing. They move too slow in 10 frames a second.

idk about you, but when I face a WiFi Sonic the input latency between shielding the spindash, unshielding, and punishing is too high for me to consistently get damage on him

 

[Road Death Wheel]

why dose it appear like everybody here has lego wifi?
lol my experience online is rather smooth and consistent. but i live in canada so that might mean somthing.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

There isn't any truly outstanding US yoshi mains so of course he'll be under represented at Apex. The fact is tho yoshi isn't over rated. Like someone else said he racks up damage with all his moves they are all good with amazing priority. He has great air speed. His projectile game is great. his eggs set up for great kill set ups for opponents trying to recover from off stage. Everything this character has kills well. His fsmash upsmash upair fair and bair and even down b. If you think this character isn't top 10 or even top 5 ur crazy. Like I said he won't have a good apex showing but that's because no one uses him in tourney here. If the Japanese yoshi was coming to apex I promise you he's placd very high. This character has a competent and useful tool set and I truly don't expect him to fall out of top 10 in this game.


Also to the person who said Diddy is getting nerfed hard to high tier. Must be nice to get nerfed so hard ur still top 10 lmfao. Diddy like yoshi by design has a great tool set even without dthrow to upair he's still top 10. Diddy is here to stay folks.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

There isn't any truly outstanding US yoshi mains so of course he'll be under represented at Apex. The fact is tho yoshi isn't over rated. Like someone else said he racks up damage with all his moves they are all good with amazing priority. He has great air speed. His projectile game is great. his eggs set up for great kill set ups for opponents trying to recover from off stage. Everything this character has kills well. His fsmash upsmash upair fair and bair and even down b. If you think this character isn't top 10 or even top 5 ur crazy. Like I said he won't have a good apex showing but that's because no one uses him in tourney here. If the Japanese yoshi was coming to apex I promise you he's placd very high. This character has a competent and useful tool set and I truly don't expect him to fall out of top 10 in this game.


Also to the person who said Diddy is getting nerfed hard to high tier. Must be nice to get nerfed so hard ur still top 10 lmfao. Diddy like yoshi by design has a great tool set even without dthrow to upair he's still top 10. Diddy is here to stay folks.

but yoshi just can't capitalize in advantagous state and thats bad news if he cant get that kill. you know because of rage.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Why can't he capitalize? I don't have problems kill with yoshi at all. It's easy to set up kills with eggs and his fair off stage is fantastic. His upair also kills most characters at 105%. I don't know why I don't think he can get kills. People consider sonic top tier and he has more trouble killing then yoshi. Yoshi also has the ability to play super aggressive or incredibly lame with eggs tossing. Most top tier characters can't play both styles. A good yoshi will switch up stratigies mid Match to test their opponent.


Only character to me that beats yoshi and its not even clear yet is Shiek. I'd say it's 6-4 right now but it all depends on the player. A 6-4 mu can go to either player.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

That's your fault for playing a rodent Solid.
You have to fight blue with blue maybe green, not yellow, yellow too slow and I know you know what I'm talking about.

My internet fine we in the same province Death.
But if you don't know the context...

There is crap you try to abuse on WiFi because it requires precision or prediction to shutdown that's only consistent offline. When WiFi is good jigglypuff is the scariest. 80% of ppl playing puff online were no joke. "Use that shulk anything and imma rest that". Pull out the pits and Kirby's for that.

 

[Conda]

Really think Pit is fantastic. Been using him a lot lately, and feels like a character that lets me play smart and cleverly due to how varied yet functional his moveset is, for both footsies and aerial play.

Began a For Glory series on my channel as a way for me to give detailed thoughts on characters, matchups, etc.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqsncc7Jc6U

Next episode is being uploaded tomorrow.

 

[NairWizard]

why dose it appear like everybody here has lego wifi?
lol my experience online is rather smooth and consistent. but i live in canada so that might mean somthing.

Even the best connection has a few frames of input lag. It might look smooth to you visually, but there are still fractions of seconds of lag between pressing the button and receiving a response from the screen.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Even the best connection has a few frames of input lag. It might look smooth to you visually, but there are still fractions of seconds of lag between pressing the button and receiving a response from the screen.

i guess i gotta develop this meta human abillitiy so i can notice for the future.

 

[Funkermonster]

Been hearing bad things about the Mii Swordfighters, can someone tell me what's so bad about them? I don't really play with Miis that often, so I wouldn't know.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Been hearing bad things about the Mii Swordfighters, can someone tell me what's so bad about them? I don't really play with Miis that often, so I wouldn't know.

thier not bad just the other mii's are better

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Been hearing bad things about the Mii Swordfighters, can someone tell me what's so bad about them? I don't really play with Miis that often, so I wouldn't know.

Basically the only thing the Swordfighter has going for him is the reflector down special. Everything else he does another swordsman can do better. (Toon) Link has better projectiles, Ike has more power, Shulk has more range, Marth has his tippers.

So...not bad per se, but lacking reasons to use him over alternatives.

 

[Kofu]

His DAir is like Kirby's, except it's disjointed and even more powerful at gimping. That's something that sets him apart, since most of the other swordsmen have DAirs that need to be fairly precise.

 

[Ffamran]

I think lag really disrupts any meaningful conclusions you can make, honestly.

Welcome to my misadventure as Falco... I can play well as everyone else, but once I pick Falco, everything just becomes a fight against the ability to move. All momentum, all spacing, all inputs, everything becomes null and void as Falco. It's like Falco was designed to be Lag's -bleep-.

You haven't WiFi johned until you face a Samus.

.

You haven't played Wi-Fi until you played as Falco. You get to fight one extra, OP, invincible opponent called Lag who nips at your heels to -bleep- you off and then slams a telephone pole onto your groin when you feel like you have any advantage against your other, real, human opponent. -bleep-, Lag. I hate it, so much.

Why can't we have servers hosted? Tons of games do it and players even voluntarily host servers!

 

[Makorel]

I would like to echo COBBS' sentiment that Pit is fantastic. He doesn't have as much speed as some of the top tier but he has good speed and combined with his range he's able to play ball. In fact I feel that's a trend with his entire tool kit: he doesn't have the best speed, or the best range, or the best combo game or gimp game and only has decent power, but he does have good speed, very good range, a good combo game etc and it all adds up to a well rounded character that doesn't excel at any one thing but does quite well at multiple things. Combine that with his fast and long range tilts and smashes, a decent projectile, good recovery, including 3 jumps to mix up landings, and a super armor kill move, it all makes for what I feel is a formidable character. Other characters might be even more formidable, and while Pit might not have positive match ups against all of them (Lucario and Rosalina don't seem too favorable if I think about it) I don't feel any match up is unwinnable as Pit.

 

[cAm8ooo]

but yoshi just can't capitalize in advantagous state and thats bad news if he cant get that kill. you know because of rage.

Yoshi has plenty of kill options. Uptilt to upair is a true combo and can kill early, jab to upsmash is very effective, f smash shrinks his hurtbox which can be used to fake out your opponent (especially pivot f smash), down b is incredibly fast and powerful as a counter, eggs can set up combos or traps, nair kills off stage very well, bair kills, a missed fair stage tech is an easy up air kill with the huge hitstun it has. Yoshi is in no way lacking kill options. I would be shocked if he didn't end up top 5 and every yoshi main knows it.