Character Competitive Impressions

[FimPhym]

Dedede does though, since he can just Inhale most of
Sonic's approaches, while throwing out stationary
gordos (holding back) to keep him honest.

Have you tried this in a real match? I have and it was not pretty. Since 1.0.4 spin dash reflects gordos passively while moving, and inhale is such a massive commitment it is very easy for sonic to jump out of his spin dash and kick your head. He doesn't even have to approach while a gordo is sitting there if it is somehow a problem, there's ample start up for him to get in if you wish to keep gordos out and keep throwing new ones.

The match up is pretty hard. I don't know what the other dedede's are doing but I have been content to shield spin dash and try to punish his landing whether or not he chooses to spring off into the skies. It kinda sucks trying to space out a character who can easily whiff punish your f tilt at pretty much any range.

I don't have enough high level experience to say who wins the match up, but I would put my money on the way, way better character unless there's extraordinary evidence that dedede wins.

 

[Thinkaman]

DH also has trouble setting up kill moves well. All three smash attacks have good kill power... but have that awkward issue where sometimes, for no apparent reason, the last hit will whiff. Bair has an awkward hitbox, and is incredibly telegraphed.

Actually, DHD's smashes are numerically pretty lack-luster even just at face value. The entire kit has very poor KO power.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Quick Attack is the best way to punish Sonic imo (even with customs on). He misses a spindash? He's getting QA'ed. He's gotta call your jump and hit you to prevent it if you are on point.

ESAM was saying earlier that Quick Attack is the best move in smash 4. I disagree because Palutena's Super Speed is super good, but with customs off that's not an unfair statement. Pika hype.

Though I regret to say that I am learning Sheik. Know thy enemy and all that.

if we are gunna talk customs bowser and his wave slashing and fire balls and dk's almost everything but down b is worth noting.
also once again samus hype lol.

 

[madworlder]

WiiFit is still the odd character out in this game in my eyes, I still don't really know but she hits so hard with her attacks and most of her set ups are close-range.

Judging from the rest of the cast's position, I'd put WFT in precision/spacing or her own category. Both of her projectiles are very strong, she is rarely forced to approach. Her great mobility and attack angles lead me to lump her in with the precision characters but with Deep Breathing and very strong f-tilt, smashes, and spikes, she does get very high reward for committing to a rushdown game.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I find it somewhat funny that we still get so many questions specifically about how to beat Rosalina, and yet at the top level it seems like pretty much no one uses Rosalina.

Anyway... as far as the characters that most easily get rid of Luma, my picks are...

(Side-B), (jab, f-tilt), (jab, f-tilt), (jab, f-tilt), (big sword)

At least this is my experience, in maining the hell out of Rosalina. But despite the fact that those characters can get rid of Luma easily, I don't think Rosalina actually has a losing match up against any of them.

---

As far as goes. Yeah... his grab is a weakness. But it's a necessary weakness, because if he had a good grab he would be BROKEN. Literally everything else about Yoshi is so damn good. Amazing projectile, amazing neutral game, amazing aerial game, amazing dash attack, amazing jab, amazing smash attacks, amazingly ungimpable recovery, good weight, amazing overall ability to rack up damage, etc. etc. Pretty much every attack he has is good and useful, which you really can't say about any other character. Like, no one even talks about his down+B, but it's SO good in this game. Yes, an amateur who spams it will make it look bad, but in the right hands it's a great finishing move / shield breaker. It's surprisingly difficult to punish as well (again, when it's used correctly).


IMO the top 3 characters right now are are all so good but are being underutilized by pros (at least in the US) are , , & . Maybe it's because people don't like their play style, maybe it's because they're perceived as "cheap," or maybe it's because... I don't really know why. But I think they are all top 10 characters at a minimum, yet you don't see the US pros using them much. I see like 10 times more of than these 3 characters combined, and I swear that Falcon isn't nearly as good as any of those 3.

Don't forget peach's side b that gets rid of luma easily.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Folks have this idea that DH sits on the edge and sets up camp. Duck Hunt can be played as a trap character that says, "You're on the edge looking straight at a can. If you neutral get up, the can is going to explode; if you jump, I have a disjointed FAir/Bair that will get you back off stage; if you roll, I can read it with a smash; if you ledge drop, I could drop the can off stage to hit you." He has these things on stage too.

Indeed, and those traps can definitely be irritating, though it has to be said that lots of characters have good ledge mix-ups (this is something that needs to be explored a heck of a lot more, tbh)

Situations like these are precisely why DH excels against characters with poor mobility. Fast and evasive characters like Sheik, on the other hand, can often bypass many of these set-ups.

He can also be played aggressively with his safe on shield FAirs/BAirs. His grab is pretty darn good too. He's got a stronger villager NAir that can be used for kills and the can does serious work off stage due to the amount of control you have of it. (Edit: Clay Pigeon presents an opportunity to FAir/usmash/grab/shenanigan. He can capitalize on it decently by delaying the shots so you're in hitstun for longer)

In fairness, DH does have a surprisingly good grab. Their pummel and throws are fairly unspectacular, but then again, they get opponents out of your face, which depending on the opponent is more than sufficient.

Fair and Bair are decent spacing tools... but many characters can do that better. Peach can safely use aerials on shields as well, and for a much better reward. Marth and Lucina can too, and Donkey Kong, and quite a few others besides, without even considering anyone from top tier.

He has weaknesses, so does ALL OF THE CAST (sans Pits IMO with limited experience), but he has strengths that aren't just "sit in a corner and stop your approach."

Well sure. But IMO, those strengths aren't enough to make up for that IMO. And it's not just that they have cons - it's that those cons are critical and easy to exploit. Nair is a good move for sure, but not really a primary kill move - killing opponents consistently at under 150% isn't too easy for DH a lot of the time.

And yeah, that recovery. In a game where edgeguarding is more important than other, and over half the cast can chase you far off-stage without the slightest worry about maybe not making it back... A character would need to be very, very powerful elsewhere to remain in the top half of the cast with a weakness like that.

 

[NairWizard]

In fairness, DH does have a surprisingly good grab.

This right here is why I think that Duck Hunt's stats were made to be generally medicore. Pacman and Villager have good stats overall, but their grabs are bad, so once you get in, it's hard for them to get you out again. Duck Hunt is a strong zoner who has a good grab; can you imagine how frustrating it might be to also give him strong KO power/fast attacks?

He might be a little undertuned, but I think it's also quite difficult to balance a zoner.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

celestial fire work as a kill option. discuss.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Played smash 4 today for the first time. I used greninja, rob, and bowser jr. Against my friends and family (Wooping behind over there lol).

Greninja felt like mid-high tier the moment I started to play it. Bair is the best spacing and neutral game aerial move it has, but mostly all of its attacks seemed specific in use when I picked it up.

ROB is rob. I main him in brawl and in the brawl mods so I had little resistance in finding my comfort zone.

Bowser Jr. Is different. Like, very different. I knew from playing him he was a zoner, but he had a very diverse moveset that does very different things, so it was some resistance in finding a beat with him.
Overall, I think I foun my team ima be playing with when I actually get the game

 

[Meru.]

So is she bad enough to be considered the consensus worst character? Where on the scale of badness does she rank?

Yes, she is a strong contender. I would say that in the end, she got buffed a little bit from Brawl, mainly because of a good recovery and powerful UpB, but other than she has actually received a lot of small, unneeded nerfs. Other than recovery, her weaknesses are still exactly the same as in Brawl, and that's not good. She has no approaching options, adding to that no good option out of a run, no existing aerial game, her grab is slower than average (frame 10 instead of 6), slow, light, no outstanding combos... I could go on.

She is probably going to rely a bit on hitconfirming Up B and Dtilt/Dthrow > aerial. The former one needs some really godly reaction time or you must expect the first one to hit because the window where you can aim your Farore's Wind after you have with the first hit is small. The Dthrow/Dtilt set-ups are unreliably and often don't work quite as well as you want to.

We'll have to see how it goes, perhaps these set-ups may prove more useful later, but for now it's not looking good for her. I can hardly think of match-ups that favor her but I can think of a lot of match-ups in where she gets destroyed.

 

[Thinkaman]

celestial fire work as a kill option. discuss.

I dunno, you have to get pretty high damage for it to work. Though numerical looking at the hitbox data I have no idea how it hits as hard as it does.

Palutena is all about uair when it comes to killing.

 

[NairWizard]

I dunno, you have to get pretty high damage for it to work. Though numerical looking at the hitbox data I have no idea how it hits as hard as it does.

Palutena is all about uair when it comes to killing.

I also like Lightweight and/or b-reversed Explosive Flame edgeguarding. And up-smash if you don't get hit with the very tip.

Though the number of ways that she has to land up-air with customs on is absurd. Super Speed into u-air, or Lightweight d-throw into up u-air are two of the most consistent and easiest.

 

[Nobie]

No Wii Fit Trainer experience; does her ability to approach with dash pivot ftilt factor into her label as a CQC Brawler type?

Also, when it comes to Duck Hunt, I feel like the two types they have trouble with are extremely mobile types and those who can neutralize their projectile game. It's difficult to get the can going when someone like Toon Link can just boomerang it and force it to move in the opposite direction.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I dunno, you have to get pretty high damage for it to work. Though numerical looking at the hitbox data I have no idea how it hits as hard as it does.

Palutena is all about uair when it comes to killing.

yeah it is quite strange iv got some strange 80 % kills with it time to time myself.

 

[Thinkaman]

yeah it is quite strange iv got some strange 80 % kills with it time to time myself.

It's the only multi-hit standard-knockback (base + growth) hitbox I'm aware of.

Most moves like this have a repeating hit, and then a finisher with independent knockback. This is just a single rapidly repeating hitbox.

 

[NairWizard]

It's the only multi-hit standard-knockback (base + growth) hitbox I'm aware of.

Most moves like this have a repeating hit, and then a finisher with independent knockback. This is just a single rapidly repeating hitbox.

Did not know this. What about Greninja up-air?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

also has anyone experimented with rocket jump edge guarding? it has pretty large spike box too from what i know.

@ Thinkaman wait are u perhaps mistaking celestial fire work for one of her side b's

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I noticed from trying out the game something very interesting. Apparently, the Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner based characters all operate under Pokémon Starter mechanics in that they are strong against one class, but weak against the other.

This stemmed when I tried Mega Man in the demo initially, who has such brutal matchup issues with the likes of Mario, Link, Pikachu, and Villager. Eventually, I tried out the game itself, and noticed that characters like Mario, Link, and Mega Man have some very interesting matchups. Let me put it this way:

Brawlers like to be in your face, and tend to home in on enemies from a distance. Gunners are at a distinct disadvantage, though Swordfighters generally have disjointed hitboxes that can keep Brawlers at bay.

Swordfighters are more or less a tactician based class of fighter. They can keep other characters from getting too close, but struggle against characters who love to camp (Gunners).

Gunners fight from a distance and are primarily campers. They can limit the options of a Swordfighter, though Brawlers can punch right through their bullets.

What's interesting is that according to a leaked list of English translated custom moves (and what each custom move does), the three Mii Classes were the very first characters created (yes, even before the Original 12 minus Jigglypuff), and were likely created first as a means of balancing out the three basic fighter functions of Brawler, Swordfighter, and Gunner.

But wait! Link is a swordfighter, so why does Mega Man have such a poor matchup there? Well, the simple answer is that, typically speaking, not all Brawlers, Swordfighters, and Gunners operate exactly the same from one another, and since Link and Toon Link are both essentially utility belts, they are able to adequately combat Mega Man players. However, certain characters that can be classified as "Gunners" (Duck Hunt, Bowser Jr.) appear to give just about everybody trouble--especially characters like Little Mac and Sonic (though Sonic can handle Duck Hunt a lot better).

In other words, Mega Man can easily prove broken against Marth and Ike players unless custom moves is to become a thing, which if anything, adds to another layer on how useful a character can be. For this reason, how high or low a character may rank on the tier list may not be determined just strictly by their matchups, but in how useful their custom moves can be. Combo potential and easy kills also serve as a huge indicator in where certain characters can rank in the tier list.

Just to use him as a sole example, Shulk was, shortly after having seen the movie and listening to his game's soundtrack, my most anticipated newcomer for this game. I tried him out, and even used his custom moves. His custom moves are rather dreadful, and just about any Gunner-type characters can beat him up easily (though very few Brawlers can get close to him). Custom moves are not very helpful at all, save for some tactical use for his custom neutrals, and Shulk has very low combo potential. He also lacks any sort of cheap exploits either (like Dedede's Gordo Toss).

Truth be told, I'm not horribly impressed with Shulk or Mega Man, though I am very doubtful either of them will be low tier when the game comes out. Mega Man in particular is better than most Gunner classes as well as the most generic Swordfighters. Whereas Shulk seems to be a hard counter for Sonic and Little Mac--that is, when used properly. How each character may rank in relation to one another is dependent on this triangular matchup charts, how effectively each particular character plays in relation to where they're ranked in the matchup charts, and how they compare to other fighters within the same Class in general. I have no doubt in my mind that Link is going to be the best Swordfighter in Smash 4 based on the great amount of utility he has going for him. However, if I were to make a guess on who I think the worst swordfighter in the game is going to be, sadly, Shulk appears to be it.

But I could still be wrong, so who knows? Needless to say, figuring out the Tier List for this installment is not impossible, but it will be very difficult. The game balances itself rather well, and so far, nobody that I could detect is completely worthless as a fighter. But if it's any consolation, I may have found a basis to go by. Just a reminder, here's to keep in mind:

1. Brawler > Gunner > Swordfighter > Brawler (again)
2. How effective each character is in relation to their respective class
3. The Combo and K.O. potential of each character
4. The full extent of each of their custom moves

Brawler: Peach, Bowser, Yoshi, Wario, Donkey Kong, Ganondorf, Kirby, King Dedede, Little Mac, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon, Olimar, Wii Fit Trainer, Pac-Man, Sonic

Brawler/Swordfighter: Greninja

Swordfighter: Marth, Ike, Meta Knight, Lucina, Shulk

Swordfighter/Gunner: Link, Pit, Toon Link, Robin, Dark Pit

Gunner: Bowser Jr., Zelda, Samus, Zero Suit Samus, Palutena, Pikachu, Duck Hunt, Ness, Mega Man

Gunner/Brawler: Mario, Luigi, Rosalina, Mr. Game & Watch, Diddy Kong, Sheik, Fox, Falco, Lucario, R.O.B., Villager, Dr. Mario

Is there a possibility in this barring weight?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Is there a possibility in this barring weight?

class match up are a thing but there are way more variables and classes that those.

 

[Chuva]

Why do people keep saying Gunner is primarily a "campy long-ranged" character? This is such a misinformation.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Is this thread open to discussion for a tier list now that the game has been out for a bit and patches have minimized?

 

[Shaya]

Is this thread open to discussion for a tier list now that the game has been out for a bit and patches have minimized?

Depends on how much effort you put into justifying it (various positions).
You could probably get away with a top/bottom X characters ball park type of thing too~

 

[Seagull Joe]

Depends on how much effort you put into justifying it (various positions).
You could probably get away with a top/bottom X characters ball park type of thing too~

Check your wall Shaya. And ok, I have valid opinions.

 

[ZombieBran]

So Sakurai has once again decided that Zelda can only be good in Smash when she dresses like a man, while the only way for Samus to move up the tier list is to take off her clothes.

Sad but true.

I mean, yeah we're salty. But we're just being realistic.

 

[Ffamran]

That was... That was enough For Glory today... Umm... Since you guys are experts, I have one big question that confused me about 2 minutes ago: WHAT WOULD OLIMAR GAIN BY THROWING HIS PIKMIN OFF THE LEDGE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FIGHT?!

I just... I can't... I can't comprehend... I... That... I'm not playing Smash anymore until maybe tomorrow... My brain... It's so confuzzled...

 

[Antonykun]

That was... That was enough For Glory today... Umm... Since you guys are experts, I have one big question that confused me about 2 minutes ago: WHAT WOULD OLIMAR GAIN BY THROWING HIS PIKMIN OFF THE LEDGE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE FIGHT?!

I just... I can't... I can't comprehend... I... That... I'm not playing Smash anymore until maybe tomorrow... My brain... It's so confuzzled...

Maybe he wanted white purple red really badly?

 

[Dabuz]

Pikmin farming, you dump the useless pikmin (which at the start of a fight are normally blue and red) to get immediate purples and whites which are amazing.

 

[Locke 06]

Situations like these are precisely why DH excels against characters with poor mobility. Fast and evasive characters like Sheik, on the other hand, can often bypass many of these set-ups.

Fast and evasive characters/rush down can give DH trouble. That's the archetype. Average mobility characters are still susceptible.

In fairness, DH does have a surprisingly good grab. Their pummel and throws are fairly unspectacular, but then again, they get opponents out of your face, which depending on the opponent is more than sufficient.

Fair and Bair are decent spacing tools... but many characters can do that better. Peach can safely use aerials on shields as well, and for a much better reward. Marth and Lucina can too, and Donkey Kong, and quite a few others besides, without even considering anyone from top tier.

They're not spectacular because there is another part of his game that is. Marth is a spacing character. Peach's game is her float and FAir is the only safe on shield (IIRC and that's a high commitment move). It's like giving Marth a serviceable projectile. It's a tool that one could argue his archetype should not have. And for the record, DK can't use aerials safely on shield unless the shield is about to break unless you want to tell me something that will help my DK improve.

In regards to his recovery, yes. It's awful. There are a few things that make it less awful, having decent horizontal mobility, light weight, a wall jump, customs, and having an active hitbox while recovering (can). Also, one of the customs gives him a faster strictly vertical recovery. It's a weakness for sure, but I'd argue that he has enough tools to get himself into the top half of the cast with potential to be in the top 15.

Do you understand exactly how Duck Hunt's projectiles work? The answer is no, because nobody does. Once that mystery is cracked, it will help the character develop a little more and I think we'll see more precise duck hunt play. Right now, if you shoot the can twice and ftilt it, you know it's going forward, but who knows how far it's gonna go. (And if you shoot it again, the knockback changes...)

Also, in regards to the projectile characters changing the direction of the can, there's a lot of tricks Duck Hunt can use with a can that's facing opposite his opponent. He's a complex character that is very far away from being fully developed.

This right here is why I think that Duck Hunt's stats were made to be generally medicore. Pacman and Villager have good stats overall, but their grabs are bad, so once you get in, it's hard for them to get you out again. Duck Hunt is a strong zoner who has a good grab; can you imagine how frustrating it might be to also give him strong KO power/fast attacks?

He might be a little undertuned, but I think it's also quite difficult to balance a zoner.

Not sure what you mean by stats. In terms of air speed and walking speed, Duck Hunt has superior mobility/physical specs to Villager. The one thing is that he's lighter than Villager (while having a faster fall speed). Would you mind explaining what you mean by "stats?"

Also, strong zoner who has a good grab with strong KO power/fast attacks?

Spoiler

- 4 frame BAir, 5 frame dtilt slide, 6 frame utilt kills most characters ~85%

 

[Ffamran]

Maybe he wanted white purple red really badly?

Pikmin farming, you dump the useless pikmin (which at the start of a fight are normally blue and red) to get immediate purples and whites which are amazing.

I should have mentioned that he didn't do that. He just murdered Steve (the Trooper), Bob, and Joe. I was like, "WTF?", so I cautiously, well, as cautious as a green dinosaur can be, approached him and he ran away, I followed, and then he, I think, Nair'd me. So we fought and not once did he decide to use Pikmin Pluck again. Damn, I wished I recorded it, but I was in so much shock, that I just left, and said, "I'm done. I'm done for today."

I think I left many openings for him to use Pikmin Pluck during the first stock and he didn't. After I KO'd him, however, he decided to use Pikmin Pluck and fight with his Pikmin. I ended up KO'ing him again... I think his tag was Damian and he's from Texas.

It was so weird... It made having to deal with a Smash match from before where I had about 1 second of input delay while a Little Mac named Edourdo or something like that spammed nothing but Dash Attacks and Side Smashes on everyone less annoying and forgettable. I couldn't do much since I had 1 second input delays.

 

[NairWizard]

Not sure what you mean by stats. In terms of air speed and walking speed, Duck Hunt has superior mobility/physical specs to Villager. The one thing is that he's lighter than Villager (while having a faster fall speed). Would you mind explaining what you mean by "stats?"

KO power, recovery, non-projectile hitbox placement and sizes--everything about the character, the overall package, except of course for the zoning part, because that's what's under focus. Villager and Pacman have fine overall stats, but weak grabs. DHD trades in good stats in some areas for a regular grab.

Also, strong zoner who has a good grab with strong KO power/fast attacks?
- 4 frame BAir, 5 frame dtilt slide, 6 frame utilt kills most characters ~85%

Doesn't really fit the Villager/Pacman/DHD mold imo--we are implicitly talking about long-range zoners by that grouping. Outside of Metal Blade + Leaf Shield combo setups, Megaman has no reason to stay in long-range, whereas the other three love to (DHD likes to be closer for Frisbee though). I'm not afraid of Megaman when he's zoning me. I'm afraid of Megaman when he's applying close to midrange pressure using f-airs and b-airs, with Metal Blades and Leaf Shields used to get grabs. Totally different archetype.

 

[Locke 06]

KO power, recovery, non-projectile hitbox placement and sizes--everything about the character, the overall package, except of course for the zoning part, because that's what's under focus. Villager and Pacman have fine overall stats, but weak grabs. DHD trades in good stats in some areas for a regular grab.



Doesn't really fit the Villager/Pacman/DHD mold imo--we are implicitly talking about long-range zoners by that grouping. Outside of Metal Blade + Leaf Shield combo setups, Megaman has no reason to stay in long-range, whereas the other three love to (DHD likes to be closer for Frisbee though). I'm not afraid of Megaman when he's zoning me. I'm afraid of Megaman when he's applying close to midrange pressure using f-airs and b-airs, with Metal Blades and Leaf Shields used to get grabs. Totally different archetype.

Ahh, I see. By stats I thought you meant physical stats like the ones I listed. Also fair point on the archetype. Although I'm not really "afraid" of Villager when he's zoning with Lloids and slingshots (more annoyed and building up damage like Mega Man at mid-range).

 

[Nobie]

Doesn't really fit the Villager/Pacman/DHD mold imo--we are implicitly talking about long-range zoners by that grouping. Outside of Metal Blade + Leaf Shield combo setups, Megaman has no reason to stay in long-range, whereas the other three love to (DHD likes to be closer for Frisbee though). I'm not afraid of Megaman when he's zoning me. I'm afraid of Megaman when he's applying close to midrange pressure using f-airs and b-airs, with Metal Blades and Leaf Shields used to get grabs. Totally different archetype.

Mega Man's projectile game is primarily designed to help him approach, and then fade back out before he gets too vulnerable. I think his forward tilt is sort of like Falco's old short hop double laser in that regard, though I'm not knowledgeable about Falco in Melee/Brawl, so feel free to correct me.

Another thing about Mega Man is how his projectile-heavy moveset interacts way differently with opponents. Like, Mega Man is great at applying mid-range pressure as you say, but against other projectile-ish characters like Villager and Duck Hunt, his tools will often force them to come in closer because while they have better zoning games overall, Mega Man makes them just uncomfortable enough that they can't play it as they normally would.

 

[HeroMystic]

I'm certainly not the one to answer this, but I'd say no. I believe that the worst character is tied between Samus and Mii Swordfighter, or something like tthat

I don't believe Samus is the worst character in the game. She has plenty of strengths that are easy to utilize, and she excels very well with frame traps. Also, her back-air is extremely strong.

Samus is just one of those characters that just "feel" bad at the beginning, and it's one of those things where Samus players just have to figure her out and utilize her tools. I will say however she's probably a mid tier character at best. Statistically speaking she just doesn't have enough going for her to justify her nerfs as a long-range zoner.

 

[Funkermonster]

On a side note, I'm genuinely beginning to believe that Duck Hunt may be low tier. They have tons of blind spots in their air game, their smashes are rather unreliable, and their recovery is one of the easiest in the game to gimp. Their keep-out ability is good for sure, but I don't think that's enough to cover up their huge flaws...

Duck Hunt low tier? For all the reasons you've been giving, I mostly only agree with the smash attack issue, definitely unreliable besides for punishes. The other stuff, not so much.

First off the recovery thing, I somewhat agree with that part. Duck Hunt's recovery isn't all that great and any competent opponent can simply meteor smash or spike them (assuming his/her character has one) to their doom since they are left completely helpless during the move with no hitbox protecting them. BUT there are some ways to help weaken this issue.

1. Wall Jump, something every Duck Hunt player out there oughta know. Doesn't work on All Stages I admit, but for those that do (especially walled Omegas like Boxing Ring or Coliseum) this helps his recovery just fine so it makes it harder to get them, and sometimes you won't even need to use your UpB since you'll already have snapped the ledge by then.

2. You can throw out Gunmen to help shoot at someone who may try to attack you while you're offstage. Not exactly reliable, but it helps. But what is reliable is that you can still shoot a can out while you're offstage and fly right behind it to protect yourself, essentially giving your UpB a hitbox.

3. If custom moves will be allowed in tournaments (with the community project for them going on, I think they will be), one of their custom moves called the Super Duck Jump aids their recovery greatly. Not only do they get increased vertical height, but also a windbox around their body to pushaway attackers so its harder to intercept. On a fun little gimmick, you could even use your UpB to gimp certain recoveries like Ganondorf's or Ike's in a similar fashion to Greninja's Hydro Pump. The other custom move where the dog bites opponents is pretty useless though.

Second, the Air Game thing, what gaps in his air game again?

• His Nair is surprisingly powerful for a neutral air and makes an ok killing move OoS. Very laggy and I wouldn't classiy it as a great move, but it has its uses.
• Uair, do I need to say it?
• Fair has a disjointed hitbox and and is a good spacing tool, having almost as much range as the sword characters. Pretty good approaching move and safe on shield if spaced correctly. Great gimp move against those with bad recoveries like Lucina, Mario, or Falcon.
• Dair is a multi-hit meteor smash, and it can be autocanceled in a shorthop.
• Bair has good kill power and can be pretty useful as a kill move if you SHFF it. Not the greatest range though.
• You can still use your projectiles in mid-air, which are super useful here.

Folks have this idea in their heads that DH is really hard to get in on, but that's only really true of some of the cast. Any character with good aerial mobility that isn't too big can actually get around his Trick Shot and Clay Shooting without too much trouble. Trick Shot would be utterly broken if someone like, say, Diddy Kong had it... but DH just doesn't have the tools to capitalise on it very much.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say if you're trying to camp like that with DH or facing those that do, you're probably doing it wrong (no offense). Going out on an even bigger limb here: Unless I'm facing DK, Bowser Jr, Lucina, or any other character who can't approach or zone effectively; personally, I don't play or classify Duck Hunt as a zoning character, or even play him heavily defensively. I'm not sure what exactly I would classify him as, but I think there's another optimal way to play the character.

• Shorthop Gunmen and Clay Pigeon as great ways to add pressure onto my opponents, either towards or away from my opponents (usually towards, but that's just me). Pigeon does great damage and hits multiple times, and can sometimes combo into Fair if spaced and positioned properly.
• Jumping towards my opponent with a can being shot is an even greater way to add pressure and gain momentum. I can also foxtrot with them to bait shields. Lastly, the cans make great traps, so I limit areas where my opponents can be and they can't just go wherever they want.
• Gunmen are great for me because they force a reaction out of my opponents. If they try to shield the gunshots, I get a time to step in and get a free grab, and maybe let the gunmen shoot them in combination with my pummel for extra damage. If they jump, I get a free juggle. If they try to destroy the gunmen, I'll punish them for trying to. If you combine them with a can or offstage attacking, they can also make decent (but not great) edgeguarding buddies. They also take hits for me against non-piercing projectiles and act as a barrier for projectiles so I can approach more easily. The custom move Mega Gunmen are even better for that!
• When facing other projectile characters who can camp (no pun intended) like Link, I loooooove sending cans overhead towards them. Whether the can hits them or not, they will have to cease fire and stop camping, which not only lets me slip through their defenses, but also adds more pressure on them and forces reactions from them unless they want the can to explode in their faces.

Basically, I don't really use Duck Hunt or his projectiles for defensive zoning or play him as a defensive character. Instead, I prefer to use his projectiles so I can advance onto my opponents/gain momentum, create traps, overwhelm them with pressure, and best of all: force reactions. He's not a rushdown character and I am by no means a great Duck Hunt player, but I like to play him as a semi-offensive/passive aggressive fighter who uses his tools to force reactions out of people and make hell with pressure; and I personally find that a more optimal way to play him than just sitting there shooting projectiles without moving a muscle. I dunno about you or anyone else but in my experience, most other Duck Hunt's I've faced are kind of underwhelming because they remain stagnant while shooting their projectiles without moving a muscle, and don't attempt to come over and harass themselves or add alot of pressure on me. His projectiles are rather slow, so of course a large amount of characters can bypass his zoning capabilities; and I think general mobility is very important when playing him because of that.

The way I see it, he's kind of in the same boat as Little Mac in For Glory: While Mac is optimally played as a footsies hit-and-run character who tries to avoid getting grabbed, most rookies in For Glory players use him as a reckless character. The reason why Mac has such a low win rate on For Glory is because they all think his High Speed, Fast Attacks, and Megaton Power forge him into a character built for rushdown and aggressive gameplay, wen they really don't.

Nevertheless, I think you're underestimating all the crap the Dog & Duck can do. I can see where you're coming from with your reasoning, I just disagree.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I should have mentioned that he didn't do that. He just murdered Steve (the Trooper), Bob, and Joe. I was like, "WTF?", so I cautiously, well, as cautious as a green dinosaur can be, approached him and he ran away, I followed, and then he, I think, Nair'd me. So we fought and not once did he decide to use Pikmin Pluck again. Damn, I wished I recorded it, but I was in a so much shock, that I just left, and said, "I'm done. I'm done for today."

I think I left many openings for him to use Pikmin Pluck during the first stock and he didn't. After I KO'd him, however, he decided to use Pikmin Pluck and fight with his Pikmin. I ended up KO'ing him again... I think his tag was Damian and he's from Texas.

It was so weird... It made having to deal with a Smash match from before where I had about 1 second of input delay while a Little Mac named Edourdo or something like that spammed nothing but Dash Attacks and Side Smashes on everyone less annoying and forgettable. I couldn't do much since I had 1 second input delays.

I see Nolimar mains are alive and well.
Edit: missed the second part about him using Pikmin Pluck. Guess he's not as committed as he ought to be.

 

[Ffamran]

I see Nolimar mains are alive and well.
Edit: missed the second part about him using Pikmin Pluck. Guess he's not as committed as he ought to be.

That's a thing? *a couple seconds with Google* OMG, it is a thing!

I think he either realized it wouldn't work - I don't know how Olimar's/Alph's MU is against Yoshi - or he stopped being goofy and got serious.

 

[Kofu]

So I recently thought I'd redo this character archetyping/classing exercise now that I have some solid WiiU time and there's also been a balance patch that pushed some questionable characters into various spots (Wiifit, Lucario, Shulk, and a general reshuffle of the 3 latter categories). The precision / spacing grouping looks a bit large, but it also has two sets of clones within it and it has some shaky definitions within say MK (he seems designed to be rush down, and his range is shorter than in Brawl, but I think those nerfs priorities even more precision).

Heavy CQC/Grappler:
Heavy Hybrids:
CQC "Brawler":
Precision / Spacing:
Zone Breaking / Rush Down:
Projectile Zoning Fighters:
[Long] Ranged Zoners:

Heavy... grapplers. These characters tend to not die, deal extremely high amounts of damage in single hits, and tend to fail in neutral, but once an opportunity arises they can wreck havoc (as close quarter combat fighters indicate). Why have these separate to the other CQCs? Well their weight just sets them apart in how they're played and also what characters they tend to do well against. Precision characters tend to have range/safety to beat CQCs in neutral and their lighter weights decrease risk for them getting a kill, but for the heavies they have similar or comparative range and take a lot of effort to kill, exactly what precision characters dislike (even if they can shut them down in neutral).

Heavy Hybrids is a cop out grouping kinda like Heavy CQC. With the exception of Falcon, I tend to see similar play styles or designs for these characters exist elsewhere in the cast but they have a heavier spec than their counter part. These characters tend to not have frame data that is much worse than non-heavy selves, but contrast in one field noticeably to the other. Falcon is a precision / rush down character who happens to be heavy, Ike is a very heavy swordsman with great mobility specs but slightly worse frame data than Marth in some areas, Link is obvious, Wario is a heavy grappler but has the abysmal range but with Jigglypuff aerial mobility, Yoshi has a much similar 'stance' to Fox than in his previous games, outweighs him by a lot and has some high/top tier mobility specs.

The Brawlers consist of what should be the obvious. These characters get the most out of things up close and tend to be forced to approach. Like the heavies they should be destroying you once they get in. WiiFit is still the odd character out in this game in my eyes, I still don't really know but she hits so hard with her attacks and most of her set ups are close-range.

The precision / spacing characters are varied in tools but tend to have similar design points and weaknesses. They're usually light weight, have laggy or risky kill options (i.e. lack kill set ups) but tend to excel in shutting down characters from setting up and can rely on mobility and poke moves to approach and pressure. Their ability to catch up in a deficit is pretty low, usually relying on pressure to coerce favourable trades, but a camping/stock lead opponent can usually play safely in a way that requires commitment, something that they tend not to be able to withstand multiple punishments for.

Zone breaking/rushdown had a few adjustments. Often accompanied by tools that shut down or hinder projectilers (reflectors, tjolt traveling around walls/etc) and can rush down and punish an opponent who's open or "slow" reliably (dash attacks, grabs), usually due to their zoning tools being made negligible. Diddy Kong and Ness are awkward, in Diddy's case most of his zone breaking/rush down is dash grab and side-b, both amazing tools for aggression mind you, but his neutral game based around projectiles seems more prioritised than just bum rushing them with grabs, I pushed him into the zoning fighter spec. Ness is also on the fence, he has a lot of ways to oust zoning opponents and amazing spacing tools, side-b and up-b aren't as focused on as his aerial and grab game are though.

Projectile Zoning Fighters... a totally new thing... kinda. Mid-Range zoners from previous iterations mostly, the notion of "they throw something at you so they can go in". They usually require some setting up first, but throw 100 hitboxes towards you once they're ready. Stopping them from setting up plus the ability (usually patience) to deal with the onslaught safely when its unavoidable is pretty vital to succeeding.

Long Range Zoners, the characters who essentially should be looking for centre stage and not moving for an entire match if they can get away with it. While they may need to go in for the kill or aren't too great at getting them, they tend to be comfortable with (and rely on) opponent's approaching. Their tools hit at long ranges and they're hard to approach, but they often suck at approaching themselves (no safe and fast tools while moving).

--

Anyway I'm going to do an exercise sometime soon where I'm going to -gasp- rank each character within the aforementioned categories and describe why.

I agree with most of this and the categorizing but I'd almost make another group, Weavers, who would include and probably . I don't have experience with and but they'd probably fit in there as well. These characters play similarly to normal spacing characters but are more vulnerable to being disrupted (IMO). Honestly, because has almost no combo ability to speak of and has to weave carefully to build damage I'd almost place him there as well. The distinction probably isn't as significant as I think it is, though.

I also disagree with in the projectile zoning fighters a little. The only projectile of his he can follow up in is a thrown Mechakoopa; strong, but pretty predictable. To me he feels like he wants to play like a hybrid of Mario and Game & Watch (close-range combos but with big disjoints) but is held bad by his large hitbox.

But like I said, I enjoy this.

 

[Thinkaman]

Did not know this. What about Greninja up-air?

Uair
Frame 7- 8: [1.3%]x4 45b/130g 366°
Frame 19-20: 1.3% 100f/10w 85°
Frame 22-22: 3% 40b/504g 75° 2.5-Hitlag
Enables transition to Uair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 3
Cancels transition to Uair landing state (landing lag) on real frame 35

also has anyone experimented with rocket jump edge guarding? it has pretty large spike box too from what i know.

It's good but not great. Warp is just too potent of a tool.

@ Thinkaman wait are u perhaps mistaking celestial fire work for one of her side b's

Celestial Firework (startup)
Frame 0- 1: 3.2% 100f/105w 91° Fire
Frame 2- 3: 3.2% 100f/80w 91° Fire

Celestial Firework (multi-hit finisher)
Frame 1-16: [1.2%]x3 50b/288g 80° 0.0-SDI Fire

 

[Spirst]

Good to finally have some DH discussion.

I don't see Duck Hunt as a very zoning-heavy character. With the exception of the gunmen (which still aren't fast unless the fast gunmen custom is used), his projectiles can be pretty easily interrupted and are generally slow/can be beaten by a disjointed hitbox. The Can can be hit so that it shoots the other way (though not the end of the world) and the clay pigeon travels at a relatively slow velocity/is broken by a disjointed hitbox. Duck Hunt functions best, in my opinion, as a pressure/trap character. For all the people who keep touting Duck Hunt as a long-range zoning character, I wonder how much experience they have with him. As said above, unless it's a heavy or a character with very poor approach options, DH as a long range zoner just doesn't work well and you generally gain nothing from doing so because of the awkward projectiles.

As for the blindspot in his air game, I just don't see it. SHFF fair is great for poking (10% sweetspotted) and uair/bair/dair autocancel with the dair being good for roll prediction to uair. His grab game, while not amazing, has some uses from fthrow. Fthrow>Dash attack/fair/RAR bair is a true combo at low-mid percents and can easily apply about 15%-20% if the aerial is sweetspotted. SH clay pigeons/Cans are also a really good option for added mobility. SH clay pigeons travel further than grounded ones and can stuff some approaches pretty well.

The character has a lot of options to be explored. I've spent a lot of time playing around with the properties of the projectiles and I still don't understand everything yet. The Can has A LOT of possibilities that can be done with it.

• Bair on the Can will send the Can in the direction the bair hit it in but when shot with B, it will shoot backwards towards DH rather than away like Fair/dtilt/ftilt. This is very useful in harassing people offstage since rather than being able to evade it, you can actively harass them with the Can by shooting it towards the ledge they're trying to grab. Also, if a bair Can hits the opponent, they will fly up towards DH for a reliable Uair/Nair KO.
• Can>sourspot dash attack (easy if you DA right as the can lands in front of you) will send the Can playing in a high angle behind you and will shoot, like the bair, in the opposite direction. This also has a lot of practicality for edgeguarding/harassing people offstage who are recovering from far where DH might be uncomfortable following.
• Can>sweetspot dash attack will also send the Can at a high angle but unlike the sourspot, will shoot forwards rather than backwards.
• Can>Utilt will send the Can at a vertical angle and when shot, will go backwards. This is a good mixup for covering a blind spot DH has.
• Can>Fair/dtilt/ftilt will send the Can forwards and when shot, will move forwards. Good for adding pressure and forcing shields. Can>SH Fair approaches can work well offensively since the disjointed hitbox from the fair is just at the perfect length to hit the Can forward while having DH move closer without getting TOO close so he can still react to rolls/jumps.
• Can>gunmen. The gunmen have transcendent priority shots and will hit the Can and the person in front of it. The distance it hits the Can is rather small but a good distance to keep control of the stage.
• Can can be used as an active hitbox when using the default recovery. Kick the Can when offstage with your DJ, then maintain it with B while recovering. The recovery has a set distance so it doesn't matter what other inputs you use since it can't be cancelled anyway.
• Cans are great as a "get away from me" tactic. If you know what direction the Can will shoot to when pressing B, you can shield and B to get rid of pressure and reset the position to neutral or put DH at an advantageous spot for followups.
• Cans, in addition to gunmen and clay pigeons, can tank a number of projectiles in the game including Samus' charge shot and Lucario's aura sphere regardless of rage/aura boost. Unlike the gunmen and clay pigeon, a Can tanking a hit will not render it useless since it doesn't get destroyed and worst case, gets sent back. It can always just be hit forward again.
• DH can shorthop approach/foxtrot while shooting the Can. You can threaten landings quite well by doing this if you have a Can above you that you're shooting while foxtrotting on the ground. Additionally, with foxtrot Can shooting, you have a hitbox both in the air and DH on the ground for coverage of both spaces.

Additionally, the Can seems to have some momentum-retainment properties in that a very strong projectile can hit it and NOT push it back at all. Upon a light hit to the Can, the momentum from the projectile will take effect and the Can will go flying back. Not sure why this is yet but I'd been looking into it.

The clay pigeon is a very easy way to tack on 8%-12% on average. You can use it to see how the opponent reacts to pressure and can leave it grounded as a trap if they forget about it. Once they do, you can just blow it up and rush in for a grab/fair (sweetspot fair being 10% means this it's an easy 20-ish% if everything is followed up correctly). Clay pigeons destroy characters with large hurtboxes and can halt characters trying to play rushdown without being cautious. Can>gunmen>SH clay pigeon is a good wall to approach with and if the other player doesn't react fast, they're going to get overwhelmed. Gunmen, with their awkward timing, catch a lot of people offguard. Gunmen have 5% health can absorb weak projectiles while being able to retaliate and can absorb about every other projectile (excluding piercing moves like metal blade/fully charged water shuriken) before getting KOd. Additionally, the Mega Gunmen custom has 25% HP and can function as a wall to shut down other projectile characters while DH can still make use of the clay pigeon and Can.

DH has medium weight and decent horizontal mobility as well which doesn't hurt. His physical attacks aren't too bad either. Frame 4 jab, frame 6 dtilt, and frame 8 ftilt/utilt. However, his normals don't have to be stellar since another aspect of the character is. His trap game, I feel, is second to none.

If you're playing DH, there's almost no reason you should be standing still and using projectiles only. It's silly to lump the character into the long-range zoner archetype so early on when most people don't even understand the character entirely including the DH mains who put hours into him. He has disjointed hitboxes, a lot of trap potential, great pressure, a decent grab, and the damage output isn't horrible. I don't mean to place the character in a vacuum either. I'm aware of his shortcomings (general KO issues, getting overwhelmed by rushdown play, recovering) but such issues but aren't enough to keep him in the low tier regions since they can be alleviated somewhat and his strong points are still quite good. DH is a character that will definitely see much improvement as people become more technically precise with managing his projectiles. People really underestimate the character.

 

[Funkermonster]

Good to finally have some DH discussion.

I don't see Duck Hunt as a very zoning-heavy character. With the exception of the gunmen (which still aren't fast unless the fast gunmen custom is used), his projectiles can be pretty easily interrupted and are generally slow/can be broken by a disjointed hitbox. The Can can be hit so that it shoots the other way (though not the end of the world) and the clay pigeon travels at a relatively slow velocity. Duck Hunt functions best, in my opinion, as a pressure/trap character. For all the people who keep touting Duck Hunt as a long-range zoning character, I wonder how much experience they have with him. As said above, unless it's a heavy or a character with very poor approach options, DH as a long range zoner just doesn't work well and you generally gain nothing from doing so because of the awkward projectiles.

As for the blindspot in his air game, I just don't see it. SHFF fair is great for poking (10% sweetspotted) and uair/bair/dair autocancel with the dair being good for roll prediction to uair. His grab game, while not amazing, has some uses from fthrow. Fthrow>Dash attack/fair/RAR bair is a true combo at low-mid percents and can easily apply about 15%-20% if the aerial is sweetspotted. SH clay pigeons/Cans are also a really good option for added mobility. SH clay pigeons travel further than grounded ones and can stuff some approaches pretty well.

The character has a lot of options to be explored. I've spent a lot of time playing around with the properties of the projectiles and I still don't understand everything yet. The Can has A LOT of possibilities that can be done with it.

• Bair on the Can will send the Can in the direction the bair hit it in but when shot with B, it will shoot backwards towards DH rather than away like Fair/dtilt/ftilt. This is very useful in harassing people offstage since rather than being able to evade it, you can actively harass them with the Can by shooting it towards the ledge they're trying to grab. Also, if a bair Can hits the opponent, they will fly up towards DH for a reliable Uair/Nair KO.
• Can>sourspot dash attack (easy if you DA right as the can lands in front of you) will send the Can playing in a high angle behind you and will shoot, like the bair, in the opposite direction. This also has a lot of practicality for edgeguarding/harassing people offstage who are recovering from far where DH might be uncomfortable following.
• Can>sweetspot dash attack will also send the Can at a high angle but unlike the sourspot, will shoot forwards rather than backwards.
• Can>Utilt will send the Can at a vertical angle and when shot, will go backwards. This is a good mixup for covering a blind spot DH has.
• Can>Fair/dtilt/ftilt will send the Can forwards and when shot, will move forwards. Good for adding pressure and forcing shields. Can>SH Fair approaches can work well offensively since the disjointed hitbox from the fair is just at the perfect length to hit the Can forward while having DH move closer without getting TOO close so he can still react to rolls/jumps.
• Can>gunmen. The gunmen have transcendent priority shots and will hit the Can and the person in front of it. The distance it hits the Can is rather small but a good distance to keep control of the stage.
• Can can be used as an active hitbox when using the default recovery. Kick the Can when offstage with your DJ, then maintain it with B while recovering. The recovery has a set distance so it doesn't matter what other inputs you use since it can't be cancelled anyway.
• Cans are great as a "get away from me" tactic. If you know what direction the Can will shoot to when pressing B, you can shield and B to get rid of pressure and reset the position to neutral or put DH at an advantageous spot for followups.
• Cans, in addition to gunmen and clay pigeons, can tank a number of projectiles in the game including Samus' charge shot and Lucario's aura sphere regardless of rage/aura boost. Unlike the gunmen and clay pigeon, a Can tanking a hit will not render it useless since it doesn't get destroyed and worst case, gets sent back. It can always just be hit forward again.
• DH can shorthop approach/foxtrot while shooting the Can. You can threaten landings quite well by doing this if you have a Can above you that you're shooting while foxtrotting on the ground. Additionally, with foxtrot Can shooting, you have a hitbox both in the air and DH on the ground for coverage of both spaces.

Additionally, the Can seems to have some momentum-retainment properties in that a very strong projectile can hit it and NOT push it back at all. Upon a light hit to the Can, the momentum from the projectile will take effect and the Can will go flying back. Not sure why this is yet but I'd been looking into it.

The clay pigeon is a very easy way to tack on 8%-12% on average. You can use it to see how the opponent reacts to pressure and can leave it grounded as a trap if they forget about it. Once they do, you can just blow it up and rush in for a grab/fair (sweetspot fair being 10% means this it's an easy 20-ish% if everything is followed up correctly). Clay pigeons destroy characters with large hurtboxes and can halt characters trying to play rushdown without being cautious. Can>gunmen>SH clay pigeon is a good wall to approach with and if the other player doesn't react fast, they're going to get overwhelmed. Gunmen, with their awkward timing, catch a lot of people offguard. Gunmen have 5% health can absorb weak projectiles while being able to retaliate and can absorb about every other projectile (excluding piercing moves like metal blade/fully charged water shuriken) before getting KOd. Additionally, the Mega Gunmen custom has 25% HP and can function as a wall to shut down other projectile characters while DH can still make use of the clay pigeon and Can.

DH has medium weight and decent horizontal mobility as well which doesn't hurt. His physical attacks aren't too bad either. Frame 4 jab, frame 6 dtilt, and frame 8 ftilt/utilt. However, his normals don't have to be stellar since another aspect of the character is. His trap game, I feel, is second to none.

If you're playing DH, there's almost no reason you should be standing still and using projectiles only. It's silly to lump the character into the long-range zoner archetype so early on when most people don't even understand the character entirely including the DH mains who put hours into him. He has disjointed hitboxes, a lot of trap potential, great pressure, a decent grab, and the damage output isn't horrible. I don't mean to place the character in a vacuum either. I'm aware of his shortcomings (general KO issues, getting overwhelmed by rushdown play, recovering) but such issues but aren't enough to keep him in the low tier regions since they can be alleviated somewhat and his strong points are still quite good. DH is a character that will definitely see much improvement as people become more technically precise with managing his projectiles. People really underestimate the character.