Character Competitive Impressions

[mimgrim]

They pointed out something pretty useful at Shockwave, which is that when you start Koopa Kart, Bowser Jr actually moves back about half a character length. As such, it's actually kind of a footsies tool, since you can quickly feint away from a poke and then punish. Of course, it is a commitment to go for it, but it has pretty solid reward if you get it.

That's called a punish/read though. Not an approach. You don't really wanna use the move in neutral though.

 

[Kofu]

Had Sonic been a newcomer he probably would have come out on top in that Conquest. But Pac and Rock are the new blood, and Sonic's just kinda there, in both Smash representation and in popularity.

Ironic. He gets a tremendous amount of buffs coming into Smash 4, hardly anyone uses him.

I've barely seen any Sonic usage, which makes it hard for me to get a read on his buffs. I can tell that his kill power is much increased, but beyond that I'm not really sure.

 

[Terotrous]

That's called a punish/read though. Not an approach. You don't really wanna use the move in neutral though.

Yeah, it's not really a spindash, but it does have some use.

 

[TheGrifBaller]

What does everyone think about link? Viable? I hear he was buffed a lot.

yep

 

[Terotrous]

I definitely think Toon Link is the better of the two Links this time around. That projectile game is crazy. Link's footsies are a little better, but his projectile game can't shut you down to anywhere near the same degree.

Speaking of Link, I played a pretty good one on For Glory last night. He was doing some smart things with grabs, aerials, boomerangs, and grounded UpB, but I think Yoshi vs Link is in Yoshi's favour. Link just didn't really seem fast enough to deal with Yoshi's mobility and pokes, so I was abusing him with a lot of eggs and command grabs. I 2-stocked him every time and I imagine it was frustrating as hell to play.

 

[MisterVisceral]

I would definitely like to see more Toon Link play. I might start playing around with him soon I suppose.
Also his art in Wii U. That's a +1.

EDIT: Forgot Bowser Jr's Nair. Really quick, great for spacing.

 

[Conda]

Well I'm sure you can check any character's boards and there's at least a few people who have been labbing it up with those characters. Might be a good place to look if you specifically want discussion about a particular character.

The point is that some characters only have a few people developing the metagame, while others have hundreds. The character boards are in poor shape.

 

[Terotrous]

The point is that some characters only have a few people developing the metagame, while others have hundreds. The character boards are in poor shape.

Sure, but in a lot of cases it only takes one or two. For example, name another Roy in Melee / PM that people care about other than Sethlon. Yet thanks to him, we know a fair bit about Roy. Of course, most of us aren't Sethlon, but the general point remains that even a few people who are dedicated enough can explore a character.

 

[ferioku]

Our knowledge about those characters are pretty much non-existent/minimal so they deserve to be in their respective groupings. They aren't usually talked about in this thread

Watch the VGbootcamp streamo n twitch on the 31st of October, the King d3 did extremely good.

 

[Berserker.]

Watch the VGbootcamp streamo n twitch on the 31st of October, the King d3 did extremely good.

I was talking about how much we know about the character. Not how good they are

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The point is that some characters only have a few people developing the metagame, while others have hundreds. The character boards are in poor shape.

This is always true. No one considered Pikachu a viable melee character for ages and now a lot of people put him in mid tier and in some fringe cases even higher. ZSS was 22nd on the first brawl tier list and is now probably considered 5th best in that game. There are probably a dozen more examples of this sort of thing. People also have unusually inflated opinions of some characters in every Smash game (Melee Samus, Brawl Peach, and Brawl Marth spring immediately to mind) because they were good at one time, have a million good players playing them that do well occasionally, or seem better on paper than they actually are.

It only takes a single person to advance a character, but having an army has its advantages.

 

[Thinkaman]

Someone discovered that Bowser Jr.'s dair landing hitbox cancels landing lag on hit. This does not work on shields, but does work on Luma as well as other hurtboxes.

 

[ferioku]

I was talking about how much we know about the character. Not how good they are

Then the tier lists are invalid =/.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I can try to record and upload some of Slice's stuff. He has a handful of gimmicks and janky kill setups that some Yoshi's may not know about or know how to use yet.

Also, Yoshi's placings are fine. 1st / 1XX and 9th / 180 from Yoshidora as well as 4th/256 by Yikarur and 5th/256 by Slice. Americans needs to step up their Yoshi game though :3

Oh, I think Slice mentioned placing pretty high at tournaments but sadly there's no videos he linked to us. If you actually have the recordings, that'd be kinda nice since the only vids right now are friendlies or one set being recorded that Yoshi mains never link to a smashboards results thread if any.

Had no idea on Yika actually going to tournaments though. But that's because any of the more active smashboards Yoshi's outside of me and Gashi, they don't post both in our skype group (granted it's kinda slow) or in the Yoshi boards much.

So no idea if American Yoshi's (well EU too kinda) n such like Shiri yika Slice Raptor etc. are entering tournaments or whatever. Pretty sure Delta is on the boat like me with waiting for Wii U version, not sure on other old Yoshi's if they gonna play the game outside of Scatz saying he'll hang back for just a bit.

 

[Terotrous]

Someone discovered that Bowser Jr.'s dair landing hitbox cancels landing lag on hit. This does not work on shields, but does work on Luma as well as other hurtboxes.

They were talking about this on Shockwave too. There's a grounded hitbox to Bowser Jr's Dair, I think it basically transitions into a grounded attack when it touches the ground, which is why it doesn't have landing lag in the traditional sense. They did mention though that the ground hitbox has a freeze frame and is thus very unsafe on shield.

In Brawl, I'm pretty sure G&W's key also had this property. If used near the ground it would hit twice, once in the air, then another time when it hit the ground. It probably still does in Smash4.


Oh, and I discovered yesterday that Lucario's UpB can cancel all landing lag. Greninja Side B is known to have the same property. You can use these moves when landing, no matter how close you did your aerial to the ground.

 

[Thinkaman]

They were talking about this on Shockwave too. There's a grounded hitbox to Bowser Jr's Dair, I think it basically transitions into a grounded attack when it touches the ground, which is why it doesn't have landing lag in the traditional sense. They did mention though that the ground hitbox has a freeze frame and is thus very unsafe on shield.

Right, we knew it has a grounded hitbox. But what wasn't widely known (or known at all afaik) was that if that hitbox connects, all landing lag is cancelled.

This is unique to this hitbox, and not shared by any other aerials, including G&W dair's landing hitbox.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I've barely seen any Sonic usage, which makes it hard for me to get a read on his buffs. I can tell that his kill power is much increased, but beyond that I'm not really sure.

Buffed rolls, much better Dash Attack, Hammer Spin Dash is incredible, he got some useful tools to accentuate his ground speed.

Like, his one real nerf is that he lost the ability to shield cancel his Aerial Spin Charge. That and lack of leeway to autocancel Bair. The former hurts a lot because it means Sonic's lost his means to counter anyone sitting in shield prepping to punish Spin Charge or just wanting to block Spin Charge because of pressure, but Spin Dash coming out faster helps alleviate that.

 

[GameWatching]

Not sure if this has been pointed out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufzz3xlOVPU#t=113

If you watch closely, DK Amiibo airdodges and techs when landing. What.

 

[Terotrous]

Right, we knew it has a grounded hitbox. But what wasn't widely known (or known at all afaik) was that if that hitbox connects, all landing lag is cancelled.

This is unique to this hitbox, and not shared by any other aerials, including G&W dair's landing hitbox.

Does it work against shield, or does the move actually have to hit?

Not sure if this has been pointed out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufzz3xlOVPU#t=113

If you watch closely, DK Amiibo airdodges and techs when landing. What.

You gain that ability at level 43.

(not actually a serious response).

 

[Thinkaman]

Does it work against shield, or does the move actually have to hit?

No, it has to hit a legitimate hurtbox.

You can dair Luma as Rosalina shields it, and grab Rosalina.

 

[Terotrous]

No, it has to hit a legitimate hurtbox.

You can dair Luma as Rosalina shields it, and grab Rosalina.

So it's kind of a high risk high reward move, then. You might be able to short hop dair and only input the fast fall when you see that it's hitting or something.


Overall Bowser Jr just has a lot of interesting tools. He's a very unique character.

 

[Thinkaman]

Well, it (Bowser Jr. dair) only has AC and IASA out of FH with 1-frame room for error. If you are hitting a Bowser Jr. dair high enough to possible AC if you don't fast fall, fast falling isn't going ot reach the ground before the final hit of dair sends an opponent away.

This could be used to chase an air-dodge? You know that if you land with or after them, you win.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Oh great, and I was making fun of a friend of mine for spamming Junior's dair last night (@KumaOso).

Smooth Criminal

 

[ROOOOY!]

Buffed rolls, much better Dash Attack, Hammer Spin Dash is incredible, he got some useful tools to accentuate his ground speed.

Like, his one real nerf is that he lost the ability to shield cancel his Aerial Spin Charge. That and lack of leeway to autocancel Bair. The former hurts a lot because it means Sonic's lost his means to counter anyone sitting in shield prepping to punish Spin Charge or just wanting to block Spin Charge because of pressure, but Spin Dash coming out faster helps alleviate that.

His grab range is improved too, though his throws have taken a nerfing (uthrow 12% => 6% WAT) and his pummel has gone from second best in brawl behind lucas I think in terms of DPS to...meh. Guess that about balances it out.

 

[-RedX-]

Not sure if this has been pointed out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ufzz3xlOVPU#t=113

If you watch closely, DK Amiibo airdodges and techs when landing. What.

There's a specific timing/height where hitting the shield button does both. It has to do with how lenient the tech window is in this game.

 

[A2ZOMG]

His grab range is improved too, though his throws have taken a nerfing (uthrow 12% => 6% WAT) and his pummel has gone from second best in brawl behind lucas I think in terms of DPS to...meh. Guess that about balances it out.

Sonic U-throw is complete BS in terms of followup potential in this game where airdodging and DI are both nerfed. So yeah...you probably shouldn't be complaining.

 

[MikeyAM]

Koopa Kart is a pretty bad approach tbh. Sure it has nice combo potential. But to be anywhere close to a useful approach it needs Sonic's Spin Dash speed. I find it best when recovering from up high after using your DJ, 2nd Koopa Kart (forgot its name) is an even better recovery option from up high since the spin animation will give the Koppalings a ton of momentum. Dash Attack is also pretty bad because it's streamlined and lasts way too long. I think the Koopalings' potential lie in their good tilts and aerials and Big Mecha Koopa.

It's a bad approach if you commit to it from across the stage, but being able to jump cancel at any point makes it really useful as a way to mix up your approach and options in neutral. I frequently jump cancel into mechakoopa, jump cancel into aerials before connecting with my opponent, and just empty jump into grounded tilt or a grab (though his grab game is not very good). Using it as a different movement option in neutral and as an approach really opens up your opponent for occasionally committing to it fully when you need to spin out for a kill or just want to combo into an aerial after contact.

It's great as a whiff punish and recovery tool, as mentioned, but I also think it's a really important part of his move set in general.

 

[mimgrim]

It's a bad approach if you commit to it from across the stage, but being able to jump cancel at any point makes it really useful as a way to mix up your approach and options in neutral. I frequently jump cancel into mechakoopa, jump cancel into aerials before connecting with my opponent, and just empty jump into grounded tilt or a grab (though his grab game is not very good). Using it as a different movement option in neutral and as an approach really opens up your opponent for occasionally committing to it fully when you need to spin out for a kill or just want to combo into an aerial after contact.

It's great as a whiff punish and recovery tool, as mentioned, but I also think it's a really important part of his move set in general.

Here's the problem with that, you can do all of the out of a regular Short Hop as well without using up your Double Jump. All you are really doing by doing hat stuff with Koopa Kart is limiting your options, to be honest. If the move was faster I could see it, but as it is, the move is just too slow to be practical for any of that stuff when you can just be walking or running instead while still have all of those same options plus more. It's nice in theory, but in practicality the speed of the move just doesn't make it worthwhile.

Honestly think the move is being overrated more then it should. e_e

 

[Nabbitnator]

Looks like this post got buried, so I'll do my best to explain what makes Villager viable. I'm not necessarily the best to explain, but maybe others can elaborate.

Villager is a really annoying, zoning character. Lloid Rocket is a decent pressuring tool that Villager can use to cover his approaches. His FAir and BAir are obnoxious ways to make the opponent play Villager's game and disrupt their own. The shots don't do much damage but they go a long way, and all but the shortest characters can be hit with proper spacing. He has a good, if somewhat gimpable, recovery in Balloon Trip that allows him to recover from all but being sent off the screen. He's also generally strong in he air and in his offstage game. Normal Timber has nice KO potential and can ledge trap foes. Pocket is hilarious and can be really threatening in certain matchups, since the pocketed projectiles have a damage multiplier of 1.9.

A few of his custom specials give him even more versatility. Counter Timber produces a sapling that trips opponents, essentially a banana that can't move or be used by the foe for 15 seconds. In tree form, it attacks back if attacked. Villager loses kill lower but it's usually worth it for stage control. Pushy Lloid doesn't go nearly as far, but it's more resilient than the normal version of the move to projectiles and puts more pressure on the target's shield. Extreme Balloon Trip isn't quite as powerful a recovery as the normal version, but it's much safer and makes Villager hard to gimp (it also has good distance though). And for opponents that don't have anything to use Pocket on, Garden is an excellent option. It's got a decent-sized hitbox that deals 10%, plants a flower on the target's head, and has invincibility frames. It can also grab projectiles but the grab radius is smaller and there's no multiplier.

He has some notable weaknesses though. His tilts are all fairly unsafe on shield (max-range DTilt might be safe), and a lot of characters can jump out of the first hit of UTilt. His range is poor outside of projectiles, and his kill power is somewhat lacking. His ground speed is really bad (4th worst run speed). Probably the most obvious flaw is his terrible grab. I feel safe in saying it's the worst grab in the game. Its range is only slightly better than most normal grabs, but in all of its forms (standing, dash, pivot) the full animation takes at least a second if whiffed, and it won't even grab the foe if they're too close to Villager (because he uses a net lol).

Good use of reflectors can also make his day rough. FAir, BAir, FSmash, DA, Lloid Rocket, and Timber after he chops it down can all be blocked or used against Villager by using a reflector (I got an FSmash knocked back in my face by Ness's bat and also got hit by the bat itself; it did at least 50% I swear). His USmash can also be nullified but can't be redirected at Villager. I expect Palutena and Falco to be Villager's worst match-ups in the long run because of this. Palutena has to forgo Super Speed in order to use Reflect Barrier, but it's a worthy trade-off for how hard it shuts Villager down. All of his zoning tactics are rendered nearly useless and he has a very hard time approaching, compounded by the pushback of Reflect Barrier and Villager's terrible grab. Falco's kicked reflector provides similar problems, but it's not quite as bad to deal with since the vertical range isn't as good. I hear that one of his customs, Reflector Void, is even better, but I have no experience using it or fighting against it.

Personally I think Villager's viability will drop a little as people get accustomed to fighting him (Timber Counter will always remain a threat, though). You can't really camp him, but his bad range holds him back significantly. He's definitely one of the most frustrating characters to fight thanks to his unique moveset, and you have to be patient against him if you want to get in. I remember someone mentioning Samus not being a particularly dangerous opponent in Brawl but being really troublesome to fight thanks to her ranged moves, especially for the lower tiers. I think Villager is the same sort of character except at a higher level.


I wondered if that's what you meant. I can see the figure similarities but they definitely don't play anything alike. I was grasping at straws trying to find similarities there lol. I'd personally just use the term "model" if that's what you're referring to, not archetype, since an archetype is "the original pattern or model of which all things of the same type are representations or copies" (thanks Merriam-Webster). It's more of the "Brawler-Gunner-Swordfighter" sort of deal than model-based.

Thanks for the info I now understand villager a lot more.

 

[MikeyAM]

Here's the problem with that, you can do all of the out of a regular Short Hop as well without using up your Double Jump. All you are really doing by doing hat stuff with Koopa Kart is limiting your options, to be honest. If the move was faster I could see it, but as it is, the move is just too slow to be practical for any of that stuff when you can just be walking or running instead while still have all of those same options plus more. It's nice in theory, but in practicality the speed of the move just doesn't make it worthwhile.

Honestly think the move is being overrated more then it should. e_e

Literally every movement option in the game for every character limits that character's options more than walking. The fact that kart is faster than dash and cancels into basically all of BJRs good moves makes it a pretty good movement option comparatively. It's not to be used exclusively, but I think it's a mistake to not use it as a way to vary your approach and neutral as BJR.

 

[Thinkaman]

WFT fair backwards spike sourspot cannot be blocked. Why did I not know this?!?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

WFT fair backwards spike sourspot cannot be blocked. Why did I not know this?!?

Whoaaaaaaaaaaa

Whaaaaaaaaaat?!

Smooth Criminal

 

[Conda]

Literally every movement option in the game for every character limits that character's options more than walking. The fact that kart is faster than dash and cancels into basically all of BJRs good moves makes it a pretty good movement option comparatively. It's not to be used exclusively, but I think it's a mistake to not use it as a way to vary your approach and neutral as BJR.

The issue is your opponent can block to avoid all of your options out of Kart. Same goes for sonic, but he has speed to at least surprise people or catch landings, something Bjr can't do with Kart. Treating it like an approach option in neutral isnt advisable. It's a different move with different applications - one of them being a third jump, another being movement juking for safe landings.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't think you get it. Other mobility moves, mainly Spin Dash and varients and Super Speed, are not as limiting as as Koopa Kart while still being significantly faster as well, Koopa Kart is only marginally faster then running for the Koopalings (or at least feels like it to me). When you jump out of Koopa Kart you are eating away your Double Jump completely, other bursts of movements (discounting Up Specials for obvious reasons) don't have this kind of set-back. It's a high risk move for medium reward at best. Basically what you are doing when using this move in neutral is lowering your amount of options for a tiny boost in speed, compared to say Spindash which is at least fast making it harder to react to or Super Speed which is both fast + you keep all options you have out of run + new options + neither move eat your DJ when you jump out of it from the ground. Spin Dash has comparative problems to Koopa Kart in that it is limiting your options but Spin Dash is 10x faster.

Koopa Kart is bad approach/neutral option. Your not going to be catching people off guard with it's speed like Spin Dash and you don't keep or gain options like with Super Speed. It for punish/reads and for recovering (third jump and if you switch to Koopa Drift custom the momentum you get from going into spinning animation in air is good)

 

[NotLiquid]

His grab range is improved too, though his throws have taken a nerfing (uthrow 12% => 6% WAT) and his pummel has gone from second best in brawl behind lucas I think in terms of DPS to...meh. Guess that about balances it out.

For what it's worth, his back throw is now a pretty good KO throw and using his down throw near the edge is a good set up for a potential gimp.

 

[NairWizard]

WFT fair backwards spike sourspot cannot be blocked. Why did I not know this?!?

Probably because it's a "backwards spike sourspot." Who even used that before WFT?

 

[MikeyAM]

I don't think you get it.

I understand what you're saying. I just disagree with your opinion.

The issue is your opponent can block to avoid all of your options out of Kart. Same goes for sonic, but he has speed to at least surprise people or catch landings, something Bjr can't do with Kart. Treating it like an approach option in neutral isnt advisable. It's a different move with different applications - one of them being a third jump, another being movement juking for safe landings.

Kart is definitely slower than Sonic, but it's faster than all of BJRs other options. You can catch landings with it that you couldn't otherwise. It also goes through shield, so it's not the most dangerous move to have an opponent shield, seeing as you can cancel as soon as you pass through shield -- though connecting on your opponents shield is definitely one of the worst outcomes.

I don't think it's the best move in the world, or even one of BJRs strongest moves, but your options out of Kart are all things that you want to be doing in neutral as BJR. Drop a koopa, charge cannon (rarely), space with aerials. It isn't 100% effective and it has downsides, but so does everything in smash. What I've found to be the case is that the more you do safe things out of canceled kart, the more that using it to get in becomes an option. If my opponent freezes into shield every time I start up kart, I have no issue taking positional stage control and dropping a mechakoopa.

I'm not going to argue that I think everyone should be using Koopa Kart all the time, but I am arguing that a) it doesn't limit your options significantly enough to make it unusable and b) adding it to your repertoire as BJR -- in addition to conventional approach and neutral options -- will keep your gameplay more varied and less predictable.

 

[AvariceX]

Whoaaaaaaaaaaa

Whaaaaaaaaaat?!

Smooth Criminal

It's pretty funny how much stuff people miss because of TL;DR.

I mentioned this 6 pages ago in my WFT vs Shaya's 15 threats post. Now that it's posted on it's own everyone is noticing.
I didn't discover it either, I mentioned it in passing on the WFT boards and people started flipping out there too, but it was found over a week ago and posted in the social thread (I think) by someone else (9ball I think).

This is the thread with the most valuable data for the overall cast condensed into one place; read your posts people!

 

[Squad]

I definitely think Toon Link is the better of the two Links this time around. That projectile game is crazy. Link's footsies are a little better, but his projectile game can't shut you down to anywhere near the same degree.

Speaking of Link, I played a pretty good one on For Glory last night. He was doing some smart things with grabs, aerials, boomerangs, and grounded UpB, but I think Yoshi vs Link is in Yoshi's favour. Link just didn't really seem fast enough to deal with Yoshi's mobility and pokes, so I was abusing him with a lot of eggs and command grabs. I 2-stocked him every time and I imagine it was frustrating as hell to play.

Yeah I have to agree. Link just doesn't seem like his physical/projectile game is strong enough to compensate for how slow he is; he almost plays more like a Brawl character while TL feels like a Smash 4 character.

 

[Locke 06]

I'm sorry, but you played a "pretty good" link and his bombs weren't a factor in the matches? -___-

I haven't played a lot of TL, but Link has jab-spin attack and a dash attack that hits like a truck. Linking to a kill move is a huge plus in a game where a lot of people have trouble killing, and dash attack is a unique type of punish that can be used in situations where most characters cannot punish as hard. I don't know how viable Link is, but he has some + attributes to balance out his projectile game (which, in my opinion, just plays a different role than TL's).