Character Competitive Impressions

[Conda]

your options out of Kart are all things that you want to be doing in neutral as BJR. Drop a koopa, charge cannon (rarely), space with aerials.

Except grab.
That's what you can't do, and your opponent thusly knows that shielding is a safe option as you do not have 'grab' as an option when in koopa kart. That's why it's not advisable to use in neutral - you make things easier for your opponent.

And his grab is not a 'tether'. I've seen Bjr players talk about his grab like you have to use it sparingly, like you're Pac Man or Samus. It's not slow at all. Heck, I think Robin has a longer delay after whiffing a grab than Bjr.

His grab is perfectly usable and throwing it away as an option isn't a good idea. The only thing that makes it look like it should be used situationally is the animation, but it's truly usable as a normal conventional grab.

The more Bjr players ignore his grabs and tilts, and focus on his koopa kart rushdown from neutral shenanigans, the more 'one trick pony' Bjr will seem. He is flexible and pretty even across the board, making him a well-equipped Mario/Pit/ROB-esque character at the end of the day, which is a good thing.

 

[Squad]

I'm sorry, but you played a "pretty good" link and his bombs weren't a factor in the matches? -___-

I haven't played a lot of TL, but Link has jab-spin attack and a dash attack that hits like a truck. Linking to a kill move is a huge plus in a game where a lot of people have trouble killing, and dash attack is a unique type of punish that can be used in situations where most characters cannot punish as hard. I don't know how viable Link is, but he has some + attributes to balance out his projectile game (which, in my opinion, just plays a different role than TL's).

Yeah, that definitely is true. Toon Link and Link definitely play a lot less like clones in Smash 4, they feel more like unique characters than before.

 

[MikeyAM]

Except grab.
That's what you can't do, and your opponent thusly knows that shielding is a safe option as you do not have 'grab' as an option when in koopa kart. That's why it's not advisable to use in neutral - you make things easier for your opponent.

And if my opponent is shielding then it's safe for me to drop a koopa and move freely about the stage. Right? That seems valuable to me. Like I said in my previous post.

 

[Conda]

I'm sorry, but you played a "pretty good" link and his bombs weren't a factor in the matches? -___-

I haven't played a lot of TL, but Link has jab-spin attack and a dash attack that hits like a truck. Linking to a kill move is a huge plus in a game where a lot of people have trouble killing, and dash attack is a unique type of punish that can be used in situations where most characters cannot punish as hard. I don't know how viable Link is, but he has some + attributes to balance out his projectile game (which, in my opinion, just plays a different role than TL's).

Once we see toon link's equipping themselves with fire arrows and low-fuse bombs, we'll see a whole new character and playstyle emerge. It's a fun bag of tricks and brings a sort of 'third' character to the link mix, in regards to playstyle.

And if my opponent is shielding then it's safe for me to drop a koopa and move freely about the stage. Right? That seems valuable to me. Like I said in my previous post.

Without a second jump. It's not the worst thing to do ever, but maintaining the position that it's the best way for Bjr's meta to develop is imo problematic. He has a huge toolkit, and approaching with Kart from neutral is one of the least safe things he can do from neutral.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm sorry, but you played a "pretty good" link and his bombs weren't a factor in the matches? -___-

He was definitely using bombs and arrows too but I don't think he hit me with many of them. Link's projectile game just doesn't seem nearly as scary as TL's, and Yoshi doesn't fear grounded projectiles at all, he can just hop over and shoot eggs.

I haven't played a lot of TL, but Link has jab-spin attack and a dash attack that hits like a truck. Linking to a kill move is a huge plus in a game where a lot of people have trouble killing, and dash attack is a unique type of punish that can be used in situations where most characters cannot punish as hard. I don't know how viable Link is, but he has some + attributes to balance out his projectile game (which, in my opinion, just plays a different role than TL's).

Yeah, he has some stuff, but it doesn't feel as potentially dominating as TL's projectile game can be. There are some matchups where TL just puts up a wall of projectiles and there's almost the opponent can do. Link can fight perfectly well against a lot of characters, but I don't think he has that level of dominance against anyone.

Is Jab Spin attack a "true combo" or a vector mixup, like Yoshi Jab -> UpSmash? If it's the latter, Yoshi can likely just armor through it with his double jump, as he does with most Jab shenanigans. I also don't think I ever got hit by dash attack, that's part of what I was saying about Yoshi being very safe.

 

[Locke 06]

He was definitely using bombs and arrows too but I don't think he hit me with many of them. Link's projectile game just doesn't seem nearly as scary as TL's, and Yoshi doesn't fear grounded projectiles at all, he can just hop over and shoot eggs.

Bombs aren't grounded projectiles. Also, Z-dropped bombs when you're approaching link can make it very difficult to get consistent pressure as it works as a combo-breaker. I think Link's arrow-bombing is much more potent than TL's.

Is Jab Spin attack a "true combo" or a vector mixup, like Yoshi Jab -> UpSmash? If it's the latter, Yoshi can likely just armor through it with his double jump, as he does with most Jab shenanigans. I also don't think I ever got hit by dash attack, that's part of what I was saying about Yoshi being very safe.

I think someone who mains link might have to back me up on this, but I think it's a true combo at all %'s. I've never had it miss (although I've had it punished at 0%). Yoshi is very safe against Link and the DA was less about Yoshi than it is for other characters. The only example that I can think of off the top of my head is punishing Little Mac side-B off of shield or horizontal recoveries that people use to land on the stage. Your opponent is far enough away that the only thing most characters can do is dash attack or dash grab... but Link's dash attack is a unique weapon.

 

[meleebrawler]

Here's the problem with that, you can do all of the out of a regular Short Hop as well without using up your Double Jump. All you are really doing by doing hat stuff with Koopa Kart is limiting your options, to be honest. If the move was faster I could see it, but as it is, the move is just too slow to be practical for any of that stuff when you can just be walking or running instead while still have all of those same options plus more. It's nice in theory, but in practicality the speed of the move just doesn't make it worthwhile.

Honestly think the move is being overrated more then it should. e_e

His dash is even slower, though. Predictable though it may be, he needs it
for mobility. The loss of double jump isn't really an issue as long as you stay
away from edges.

Edit: So this has already been covered in depth.
At the end of the day, Bowser Jr. is really not
a character built for speed. He's super heavy and thus can
tank quite a bit of punishment, and nearly all his attacks have good
range, allowing him to play footsies fairly well. Cannons and Mechakoopas
force responses when used well, and koopas in particular can help
Jr.'s approach, whether he lets them walk or throws them.

The kart is there mainly to help compensate for his sluggish
land mobility, and is not the be-all end-all strategy when using
Junior. It's just tempting to use it a lot when he's so slow.
Patience is a virtue when playing Jr.

 

[MisterVisceral]

What's your guys's match up experience against Junior?

 

[ThatLunaticFeline]

What's your guys's match up experience against Junior?

A lot of people beat him, but only slightly. He's a bit like Shulk where the odds are against him but usually only 60-40 cause of dem aerials.

(Also am I the only one noticing similarities between Wario and Jr.? Similar-ish side-Bs, VERY similar hitboxes on all aerials and unsafe but strong grabs? It's quite interesting, I think.)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

It's pretty funny how much stuff people miss because of TL;DR.

I mentioned this 6 pages ago in my WFT vs Shaya's 15 threats post. Now that it's posted on it's own everyone is noticing.
I didn't discover it either, I mentioned it in passing on the WFT boards and people started flipping out there too, but it was found over a week ago and posted in the social thread (I think) by someone else (9ball I think).

This is the thread with the most valuable data for the overall cast condensed into one place; read your posts people!

My feelings are hurt. I guess I'll read more.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Fabyyy]

So guys what do you think about Sheik Vs Greninja. I think they're pretty similar but i'd like to hear your thoughts about it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

So guys what do you think about Sheik Vs Greninja. I think they're pretty similar but i'd like to hear your thoughts about it.

Greninja has slightly better projectiles for close range, Smashes, and recovery.

Sheik has superior tilts, long range zoning, DA, and throw combos.

Overall I'd say Sheik clearly performs better in neutral. Greninja can close stocks slightly more easily, but he doesn't have quite the same level of damage racking as Sheik, and his normals aren't as good in footsies overall.

 

[Luco]

Do people really think Jr's strength lies in his tilts, because if anything I think his tilts aren't actually that amazing. Their startup isn't bad but it feels like if you whiff them you're just asking to be punished. What is it about the tilts that makes them so amazing?

I think when talking about Bowser Jr, it's important to consider the giant mechakoopa because it could be a potential MU changer. The normal mecha feels harder to set up and not as big of a deal.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Sheik seems to be less intimidating when you realize her ftilt does jack **** for damage.
While this isn't new, its not like her pressure is heavy on initial damage. Omgerd look at this 3x string that did 12% damage. Her pressure is daunting until you hit her twice and equal the same damage as 4 of her strings. Also am I mistaken is there some kind of DI letting you drop out of her U-air and Mii Brawlers Piston punch, i've had it happen to me twice.

 

[MisterVisceral]

Do people really think Jr's strength lies in his tilts, because if anything I think his tilts aren't actually that amazing. Their startup isn't bad but it feels like if you whiff them you're just asking to be punished. What is it about the tilts that makes them so amazing?

I think when talking about Bowser Jr, it's important to consider the giant mechakoopa because it could be a potential MU changer. The normal mecha feels harder to set up and not as big of a deal.

Utilt does whiff hard, but I find Dtilt pretty hard to approach with its priority, and Ftilt is quick enough that it isn't really punishable? I'd like to know what you had in mind, though.

 

[Luco]

Utilt does whiff hard, but I find Dtilt pretty hard to approach with its priority, and Ftilt is quick enough that it isn't really punishable? I'd like to know what you had in mind, though.

See I use him as a bit of a secondary, but I don't have tournament experience with him (or anyone else for that matter, until later this month ), so i'm totally willing to be wrong, it's just his tilts feel a bit... weird to me, for whatever reason. The Dtilt is certainly awesome though.

I really don't know how his meta will evolve. Obviously the clown kart will stale as it(the meta) continues to grow but I feel like his giant mechakoopa will be a big deal... for whatever reason I don't have his custom cannonballs so i'm not sure whether either of them would make a big difference. :?

I think his playstyle should almost play campy in that he wants the other person to come to him, yet at the same time he'll be relying on the mechakoopa and whatnot to force the other person to do things which he'll be trying to punish, etc.

But to be totally honest i'm not really sure.

 

[StaffofSmashing]

Eh... Deleted.

 

[Kofu]

In my experience using Bowser Jr. he seems to play a little similar to Zelda on the ground with a solid reactive/ defensive game but no way to force approaches and poor mobility. His air game is a lot more flexible, though.

It could just be Wi-Fi but I feel he struggles with projectiles. I always have a hard the working around them, even slow ones like Mario's Fireball. Not really sure what to make of that except that maybe I'm a bad player.

 

[mimgrim]

So uhm. On platforms Palutena can basically use and stay in Lightweight indefinitely meaning on a stage with platforms, at least on BF and YIB where I tested at, she can stay in a boosted state for the whole match without ever going into a negative state. Something to think about.

 

[MisterVisceral]

Can't believe I've never noticed this thread, because I'd like to note some things.

First of all, a mini-tier list of sorts. The game has been out for about a month globally and now that everyone has had a taste of the characters I'd like to give a tier list based off my experience.

S Tier:
A+ Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
C Tier:
D Tier:
E Tier?:

If you have any questions, disagreements, etc. about my list, feel free to list 'em.

Disagreements:
S Tier: Why so high?
A+ Tier: same
A Tier: REALLY high for Olimar. I might put shulk in B. Why A?
B Tier: Both of these, A+ at lowest.
C Tier: A at lowest
E Tier?: Maybe D for Paletuna.

 

[mimgrim]

*siiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh*

All these cool things Palutena has, with and without customs, and she is still being underrated hard. It's depressing, really.

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's D-Tilt > U-Air is quite effective against opponents who are at higher percentages, and this is better if you land the Meteor hit, as the meteor doesn't send them up as high or fast, giving you a good window of opportunity to hit them with the U-Air.

But does anyone have any impression of Link?

 

[Shaya]

I need to see Link in tournament, he looks solid this game, I can agree that just about all of his tools are workable, his projectiles force things/damages/approaches/sets up.
Does he get steam rolled by something like Sheik or Rosalina? How would I know? He needs to show up in tournament matches/sets.

I at least have an inkling on Ike that seems to correspond to some tournament stuff. A character with 3 frames less landing lag on all of his aerials bar neutral air in a game where landing lag on good characters was doubled, Ike's obviously multiple degrees of awesome in terms of comparative buffing. I can look at pure numbers to ascertain this and justify my raised opinion of him. I don't have any numbers on Link. Do you?

So uhm. On platforms Palutena can basically use and stay in Lightweight indefinitely meaning on a stage with platforms, at least on BF and YIB where I tested at, she can stay in a boosted state for the whole match without ever going into a negative state. Something to think about.

You're going to have to explain this, because I don't believe anyone gets it but you. I already asked my resident Palutena main beepbopping things and he has no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Ffamran]

*siiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh*

All these cool things Palutena has, with and without customs, and she is still being underrated hard. It's depressing, really.

She at least gets newcomer status as a hand wave since people don't know much about her like how people thought Sonic was complete trash in Brawl until dedicated players figured out ways to destroy people with him.

Meanwhile... with Falco...

 

[Conda]

Please no tier lists guys.

Also about Bjr, hos tilts are great for his weight class. Also sh fair helps with projectile spam due to the double hitbox and no landing lag. With a cstick Bjr will be tossing chain cannonballs around like nobodys business

Also piercing cannonball custom is a quicker more use-friendly neutral b that lets him more quickly toss out projectiles to force an approach.

Also, impatient mechakoopa is another custom that gives him more ranged pressure in return for less item-based play. Depends in your taste imo, as Bjr is mostly a brawler and off stage harasser anyway as he has great aerials with damage and KO power, and tilts with range and priority.

You can turn him i to a number of different kinds of projectile users in the sode with customs. Item based? Ranged? Slow, quick? They all simply support his main playstyle, and arent the main focus. Imo at least.

 

[KenMeister]

Sheik seems to be less intimidating when you realize her ftilt does jack **** for damage.
While this isn't new, its not like her pressure is heavy on initial damage. Omgerd look at this 3x string that did 12% damage. Her pressure is daunting until you hit her twice and equal the same damage as 4 of her strings. Also am I mistaken is there some kind of DI letting you drop out of her U-air and Mii Brawlers Piston punch, i've had it happen to me twice.

Yeah, I feel like her damage output in general feels worse than it does in previous games. Heck, even fully charged needles do only 7% damage, whereas in other games they did like 15%. That, and I feel like most of her normals don't even go beyond the 10% range (unless I'm wrong, I forget) outside of smashes. I feel like that because of the lower damage ratios on all of her moves, she loses trades pretty easily, unfortunately.

 

[KenMeister]

I need to see Link in tournament, he looks solid this game, I can agree that just about all of his tools are workable, his projectiles force things/damages/approaches/sets up.
Does he get steam rolled by something like Sheik or Rosalina? How would I know? He needs to show up in tournament matches/sets.

I at least have an inkling on Ike that seems to correspond to some tournament stuff. A character with 3 frames less landing lag on all of his aerials bar neutral air in a game where landing lag on good characters was doubled, Ike's obviously multiple degrees of awesome in terms of comparative buffing. I can look at pure numbers to ascertain this and justify my raised opinion of him. I don't have any numbers on Link. Do you?



You're going to have to explain this, because I don't believe anyone gets it but you. I already asked my resident Palutena main beepbopping things and he has no idea what you're talking about.

FYI, Keitaro mains Link. I think I saw VGBootCamp upload a video of him going against a good Greninja and Keitaro won the matchup. I'm surprised I hear no one talking about this, though. Is everyone here really that unaware of Keitaro playing Link in SSB4?

EDIT: Oh wait, looks like I found the video. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkeZLUrKmVk

 

[mimgrim]

You're going to have to explain this, because I don't believe anyone gets it but you. I already asked my resident Palutena main beepbopping things and he has no idea what you're talking about.

You have to already be in the Lightweight state or the negative state it has.
Be standing on a platform.
Attempt to fall through the platform, I think this is the case.
Then really quickly, like you only have a couple of frames to do it I think, preform Lightweight while in the Lightweight state or negative state and she will preform the move again either resetting her time allowed to remain in Lightweight and putting her in the Lightweight state while still in the negative state.

That's the easiest I know how to explain it.

 

[Shaya]

That was very very early, a month later in a game sub 2 months old is pretty huge. I have seen this set I think, I think it was linked really early on.

 

[Djent]

This is always true. No one considered Pikachu a viable melee character for ages and now a lot of people put him in mid tier and in some fringe cases even higher. ZSS was 22nd on the first brawl tier list and is now probably considered 5th best in that game. There are probably a dozen more examples of this sort of thing. People also have unusually inflated opinions of some characters in every Smash game (Melee Samus, Brawl Peach, and Brawl Marth spring immediately to mind) because they were good at one time, have a million good players playing them that do well occasionally, or seem better on paper than they actually are.

It only takes a single person to advance a character, but having an army has its advantages.

I agree with what you're saying in principle, but ZSS is actually an example of talent inflation IMO.

Near the end of Brawl's lifespan, ZSS had Salem, Choco, Sakasaka, Kamemushi, V115, and Quiksilver. That is an extraordinary amount of talent; more than any other character not named MK or ICs was lucky enough to have. I think that people don't consider this enough when rating the character's potential (especially when compared to someone like Wario, who shared Kamemushi with ZSS, and then...?).

But yeah, Peach (and I'd argue Marth too, actually) were also examples of the same phenomenon. I think we could be seeing something like that with Smash 4 Diddy and Sheik right now honestly. We're not at the point where certain characters are necessary to win, so the fact that people are bandwaggoning these characters is going to make them look stronger in comparison to the rest of the cast than they actually are. Of course, if people stick with them, and they become more developed than the other characters (and actually become necessary to win), that'll be a different scenario.

EDIT: HOLY **** @ mimgrim THE PALUTENA THING WORKS SAOHGDAOSDHGLASDG

 

[Shaya]

You have to already be in the Lightweight state or the negative state it has.
Be standing on a platform.
Attempt to fall through the platform, I think this is the case.
Then really quickly, like you only have a couple of frames to do it I think, preform Lightweight while in the Lightweight state or negative state and she will preform the move again either resetting her time allowed to remain in Lightweight and putting her in the Lightweight state while still in the negative state.

That's the easiest I know how to explain it.

GG. It's real.

Anyone who doesn't think palutena is at least high tier is now likely to be considered insane by me, if being Sonic with much better normals for 10 seconds wasn't dumb enough, now on platform stages she's basically sonic with better normals 100% of the time. Mother of god.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Holy crap.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Luco]

LOL Okay that Palutena one is hectic.

She'd obviously need the space to use it but I think it'd be really viable anyway. That's... gee wiz

Good job mimgrim. I wonder what this will lead in to for her now? :o

 

[Terotrous]

So uhm. On platforms Palutena can basically use and stay in Lightweight indefinitely meaning on a stage with platforms, at least on BF and YIB where I tested at, she can stay in a boosted state for the whole match without ever going into a negative state. Something to think about.

Well, that's crazy. It's basically Monado Jump, except permanently.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Two months later, stuff still being found out.
Im not even mad.
Now if we can find a way for Kirby to approach.

 

[Conda]

I agree with what you're saying in principle, but ZSS is actually an example of talent inflation IMO.

Near the end of Brawl's lifespan, ZSS had Salem, Choco, Sakasaka, Kamemushi, V115, and Quiksilver. That is an extraordinary amount of talent; more than any other character not named MK or ICs was lucky enough to have. I think that people don't consider this enough when rating the character's potential (especially when compared to someone like Wario, who shared Kamemushi with ZSS, and then...?).

But yeah, Peach (and I'd argue Marth too, actually) were also examples of the same phenomenon. I think we could be seeing something like that with Smash 4 Diddy and Sheik right now honestly. We're not at the point where certain characters are necessary to win, so the fact that people are bandwaggoning these characters is going to make them look stronger in comparison to the rest of the cast than they actually are. Of course, if people stick with them, and they become more developed than the other characters (and actually become necessary to win), that'll be a different scenario.

EDIT: HOLY **** @ mimgrim THE PALUTENA THING WORKS SAOHGDAOSDHGLASDG

Very well said.

 

[Ffamran]

Two months later, stuff still being found out.
Im not even mad.
Now if we can find a way for Kirby to approach.

PLEASE!!! I hate seeing Kirby scrubbies players spam dash attack, Hammer Flip, and Stone. There needs to be a Kirby Boot Camp!

 

[Radical Larry]

PLEASE!!! I hate seeing Kirby scrubbies players spam dash attack, Hammer Flip, and Stone. There needs to be a Kirby Boot Camp!

Sadly, that's what most Kirby players do, they just use those (rather horrid, might I add) approaches to try.

Speaking of Kirby, he feels like he did in Melee, in my opinion.

 

[Ffamran]

Sadly, that's what most Kirby players do, they just use those (rather horrid, might I add) approaches to try.

Speaking of Kirby, he feels like he did in Melee, in my opinion.

I feel dirty whenever I fight a Kirby who spams Stone during a sudden match. All you have to do is bait, grab, and throw. No mind games, no reads, nothing, but bait, grab, and throw.

 

[Tristan_win]

You have to already be in the Lightweight state or the negative state it has.
Be standing on a platform.
Attempt to fall through the platform, I think this is the case.
Then really quickly, like you only have a couple of frames to do it I think, preform Lightweight while in the Lightweight state or negative state and she will preform the move again either resetting her time allowed to remain in Lightweight and putting her in the Lightweight state while still in the negative state.

That's the easiest I know how to explain it.

This is actually a pretty big finding and with only mere seconds of practice it's very easy to constantly do.

Congratulation, now everyone has to accept Palutena to be at least mid tier. Which is a better place to argue from then if everyone putting her on the bottom of the tier list if you think she should be high tier.