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Character Competitive Impressions

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LiteralGrill

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Until an official tier list is made (most likely by the community this time, if what @ LiteralGrill LiteralGrill said rings true), then all we have is a general idea of where each character is.
Can't 100% guarantee this, but I bet at some point Smashboards will have an official tier list they recognize. I know my tier lists on reddit really do have issues, but at least it can hold us over for the time being. Once Mewtwo comes out if nothing really big happens I'll organize a serious effort to get things done alongside the monthly voted stuff.
 

Road Death Wheel

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And Evo is 80% of tournaments?

Apex and S@X still aren't allowing them (unless that's changed recently), and even if they were, I don't think customs are going to be the magic panacea everyone seems to think. So far, DK is doing better, but who else is rising in tier lists because of customs?

Dash slash makes Bowser better, but it's not solving ALL of his problems or anything and it's pretty much agreed on the Bowser forums that the remainder of his customs are junk.

I just don't think we can be saying, "...But CUSTOMS!" in response to the general imbalance of the game in favoring light, fast characters...
bro look at your question again and tell me if you asked if "80 percent of tournys are using customs" you asked me what major tournys and i answered with undoubtably the most major. i disregarded the rest of the post because cuz i have no idea why your telling me it.
 
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Hippieslayer

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Stfu Smash brothah, its way too early to say what customs cant do, you can't fault customs for the fact that Bowser s u c ks major ballz either
 
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S_B

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bro look at your question again and tell me if you asked if "80 percent of tournys are using customs" you asked me what major tournys and i answered with undoubtably the most major. i disregarded the rest of the post because cuz i have no idea why your telling me it.
Sorry, that was more directed at Balgor who said 80% (which sounds a bit hard to believe).

Stfu Smash brothah, its way too early to say what customs cant do, you can't fault customs for the fact that Bowser s u c ks major ballz either
I'm not faulting customs. Quite the opposite. I'm saying that customs aren't going to be the magic answer that everyone seems to believe they are.

Why are you telling me to stfu when I agree with you? :p
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Apex and S@X still aren't allowing them, and even if they were, I don't think customs are going to be the magic panacea everyone seems to think. So far, DK is doing better, but who else is rising in tier lists because of customs?

Dash slash makes Bowser better, but it's not solving ALL of his problems or anything and it's pretty much agreed on the Bowser forums that the remainder of his customs are junk.

I just don't think we can be saying, "...But CUSTOMS!" in response to the general imbalance of the game in favoring light, fast characters...
Correct. It doesn't solve all of their problems, but it does help them in one of the areas that they suffer the most in. Flexibility and variety in regards to their options.

Light characters will still have the advantage when it comes to combos, mobility, and safer options. No doubt about that.

And yeah, unfortunately for Bowser, the only thing that exponentially helps his flexibility/options is Dash Slash and Dash Grab. But he still suffers in other areas. (I honestly wish he still had his old Nair but with a bigger hitbox).


If Boswer had Project M's Down B or something of that nature, he would fair even better. But again, it certainly won't patch all of his problems. But every little bit helps. And customs definitely do help characters in most instances.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Correct. It doesn't solve all of their problems, but it does help them in one of the areas that they suffer the most in. Flexibility and variety in regards to their options.

Light characters will still have the advantage when it comes to combos, mobility, and safer options. No doubt about that.

And yeah, unfortunately for Bowser, the only thing that exponentially helps his flexibility/options is Dash Slash and Dash Grab. But he still suffers in other areas. (I honestly wish he still had his old Nair but with a bigger hitbox).


If Boswer had Project M's Down B or something of that nature, he would fair even better. But again, it certainly won't patch all of his problems. But every little bit helps. And customs definitely do help characters in most instances.
what kind of hell demon are you trying to make? pm down b along with dash slash? holy hell man.
 

S_B

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If Boswer had Project M's Down B or something of that nature, he would fair even better. But again, it certainly won't patch all of his problems. But every little bit helps. And customs definitely do help characters in most instances.
Agreed: project M's Bowser is amazing.

And yeah, customs can help, but insisting that they're going to remedy the woes of heavy characters is just silly.

I suspect we won't see DK improve in tier with this custom, either. People will figure out how to counter it, just like they did with Bowser after the 3DS invitational went to a Bowser ditto.

what kind of hell demon are you trying to make? pm down b along with dash slash? holy hell man.
One that ain't bottom tier, for starters. ;)

PM's down+B is as awesome as it is because it's cancellable, making the move versatile, just like the kind of moves Diddy and Shiek have...
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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what kind of hell demon are you trying to make? pm down b along with dash slash? holy hell man.
One that makes me feel like a King :4bowser:

And yeah, customs can help, but insisting that they're going to remedy the woes of heavy characters is just silly.
Oh, by no means am I saying that it will remedy all of their woes. Just a few of them. Sorry for the confusion.

In particular they still need safer options, like more reliable Jabs and a few quicker aerial options that go even further to help them break out of combos. Or in DeDeDe's case for example more aerial mobility would make him tons better.


Or having those damned Gordos not being reflected by a feather of all things, at least.

I miss Waddle-Dashing :(
 

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Time to flip a table and do some game design school.

Balance is a subtractive design element; in other words, balance is the absence of certain things. Specifically, balance is the absence of factors that degenerate asymmetry.

Balance is the absence of:
  1. Unfairness
  2. Polarization
  3. Homogenization
Unfairness is the strict superiority of options. Melee Fox, Brawl Meta Knight, and Smash 4 Diddy are unfair, which means they are simply better than the other characters on average. Unfairness is the simplest and easiest to identify problem, but it is only only element of balance.

Polarization is certain specific characters beating certain other specific character, regardless of average balance. (aka "counters") Melee Sheik, Brawl DDD, and Smash 4 Little Mac are very polarized characters. Polarization takes more time to identify, and is harder to address.

Homogenization is the absence of asymmetry in the first place. This is the most subjective and difficult to quantify element, but it just as (if not more) important, because it defeats the point of pursuing everything else.


Any two elements can be easily addressed by sacrificing the other, but none of these are acceptable:
  • You can trivially depolarize any game while preserving character diversity if you just accept blatant unfairness.
  • You can trivially solve any unfairness in any game while preserving character diversity if you just make a ring of pure counters.
  • You can trivially remove all unfairness and polarization by making everyone the same character.
None of these games are balanced. If we insist that any of these cases are semantically "balanced", then we have forfeited all meaningful function of the word so the point as moot. At best we could say these cases are "trivially balanced", like the trivial "solution" of a math problem that isn't actually a useful solution at all.


There is perceptually the most confusion from amateur game designers about polarization. Some go so far as to put polarization on a pedestal, actually making imbalance a design goal. Hard facts:
  • Rock-paper-scissors is a terrible game.
  • Rock-paper-scissors is not a balanced game. (As described above)
  • True counters are bad for a game.
  • Hard counters are bad for a game.
  • Soft counters are bad for a game.
  • All the deepest matchups in virtually any competitive game are 5:5.
  • Ideal balance is a matchup chart of entirely 5:5.
  • Yes, this (absolute zero polarization) is impossible, just like absolute zero unfairness is impossible.
  • But this is still the only correct goal.
If any StarCraft matchup exceeds 55:45, that represents a huge balance problem to the game. Blizzard cannot turn Starcraft into rock-paper-scissors and call it a competitive game. 0% of competitive games should be won at the character select screen. They should not even be 10% won at the character select screen.

Blizzard and Riot have the biggest balance design teams in the world. The vast majority of their time and resources goes towards fighting polarization. David Sirlin obsessively balances his games, and spends the vast majority of that time on polarization. When we made BBrawl, probably 90% of our time was dealing with polarization factors.

Unfairness is, in comparison, quite easy.


Final note: The word "counter" is overloaded. We have been talking about top-level, out-of-game-selected elements--like characters in a fighting game, or races in an RTS.

This does not apply at all to local components, such as a fighting game move, a card game card, or an RTS unit. It's okay for ZSS paralyzer to "counter" or "answer" certain moves. (While it's bad for ZSS to have a 9:1 against Fox, or even a 6:4.)

Team-composition games are tricky (Pokemon, LoL, TF2), since characters are only components of your actual team, just like ZSS paralyzer is just a component of her full character. This means they are somewhere in between, resulting in some weird non-zero target of polarization. Some games target more polarization (Pokemon) and some less (LoL), but either way it is a separate and unrelated topic.


tl;dr - Polarization is a component of balance and strictly bad regarding top-level elements of competitive games. It is neither good nor the lesser of any evils. Stop wishing that your intricate and deep competitive games get turned into character select screen rock-paper-scissors.
****ing nailed.

And this is why I lean towards games where everyone is unfair. It's very easy to quantify and a much more realistic goal. It never leads to true balance but in my experience it leads to a much more fun gaming experience because at least every character feels like they have a chance.

True balance is unattainable but a game that feels good and every character is fun and can be abusive?

Play Guilty Gear and then you will see the light.
 

Road Death Wheel

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Agreed: project M's Bowser is amazing.

And yeah, customs can help, but insisting that they're going to remedy the woes of heavy characters is just silly.

I suspect we won't see DK improve in tier with this custom, either. People will figure out how to counter it, just like they did with Bowser after the 3DS invitational went to a Bowser ditto.



One that ain't bottom tier, for starters. ;)

PM's down+B is as awesome as it is because it's cancellable, making the move versatile, just like the kind of moves Diddy and Shiek have...
i dunno if bowser is bottom with dash slash but we will see. i personally think his neutral and advantage become pretty darn threating for it to be that low.
 

S_B

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Oh, by no means am I saying that it will remedy all of their woes. Just a few of them. Sorry for the confusion.
Oh no, YOU weren't doing that, but there seems to be a general sentiment in this thread of over enthusiasm for the effectiveness of customs.

Also, the need to turn to customs to make heavies not suck inevitably opens up those custom options for their opponents, who can then tailor their movesets to better deal with the heavy in question.

In particular they still need safer options, like more reliable Jabs and a few quicker aerial options that go even further to help them break out of combos. Or in DeDeDe's case for example more aerial mobility would make him tons better.


Or having those damned Gordos not being reflected by a feather of all things, at least.

I miss Waddle-Dashing :(
Agreed.

The biggest problem for heavies is that nothing is safe, you often get forced to approach and give a light quick character an opening (which they're probably going to get if you get forced to approach) and you're going to get comboed for 50%+...

i dunno if bowser is bottom with dash slash but we will see. i personally think his neutral and advantage become pretty darn threating for it to be that low.
He's better, but as Gravy said, as long as the same glaring weaknesses are still there, it's not going to help him much in the long run.

I like PM's Bowser because he LIVES in that tank status: SA on some attacks, heavy as f**k, but still has enough moves with options that he's not limited and predictable.
 
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ParanoidDrone

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On this entire subject, what major tournaments are allowing customs now?
EVO of course, that's been known for a while. Shockwave has been running them for about a month at this point, Xanadu used them for the first time this past Tuesday, I think Team Spooky got in on it too a while back, and a lot of individual players have been practicing with them on stream in preparation for EVO.
 
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thehard

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To add to that list, the last Clash Tournaments tournament had customs on, and Come On and Ban is implementing them next time.
 
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Nobie

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****ing nailed.

And this is why I lean towards games where everyone is unfair. It's very easy to quantify and a much more realistic goal. It never leads to true balance but in my experience it leads to a much more fun gaming experience because at least every character feels like they have a chance.

True balance is unattainable but a game that feels good and every character is fun and can be abusive?

Play Guilty Gear and then you will see the light.
If I recall, the biggest example of subtractive balance doing anything but is Capcom vs. SNK 2, where having most characters be relatively weak means that having a relative strong and consistent trait such as a good crouch fierce can propel you to the top. Whether or not it's actually the case with Diddy's Hoo Hah, I think he conjures up a similar image.

What's funny about all of this talk about how Smash Bros. needs to be more pronounced with the ridiculous things characters can do is that it falls right in line with Sakurai's own design philosophy. He's stated before in interviews how if you try to balance all of the characters out perfectly, you start to have very boring, middle of the road characters with less uniqueness. You can see this thinking in Smash 4, such as in his decisions to make Little Mac this polarized ground-oriented menace, give Mega Man a highly unconventional moveset, grant Bowser the Tough Guy trait, and boost the power of Lucario's aura.

The reason it often doesn't work out is mostly a matter of fine-tuning, or perhaps not seeing all of the possibilities because of a lack of time and manpower, or even underestimating the competitive community. I mean, if we take Diddy into account, I can totally see how he came to be what he is:

"We want him to sort of be something like a mix of Donkey Kong and Mario. Small and nimble, but also with decent range. That's a little too good of course, so we gave him some issues, like a recovery that's hard to come back from if it's intercepted, and poor horizontal air speed. We also took away one of his bananas, and were thinking of making his Monkey Flip usable only once, but we found that too many of our play testers were dying accidentally."

This isn't even mentioning that, as much as the competitive community ignores it, these characters are also meant to be usable in free for all, items-on settings.
 
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HeavyLobster

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None of the heavies outside of Dedede are seriously bottom tier contenders in the custom meta. Ganon and Bowser still have too many flaws to really get consistent results in high-level tourneys, certainly without a secondary, but they're still absolutely terrifying to face and aren't worse than low-mid. Charizard is decently well rounded for a heavy and has the tools to be reasonably playable in tourney, but is still flawed enough to not really stand out from the rest of the mid-tier pack. DK's customs are really good, and he's got decent mobility and good tools in neutral and advantage. Kong Cyclone helps him out in disadvantage, Jumping Headbutt seems to largely be an upgrade, Storm Punch charges faster than default and still has decent power along with the windbox, and all of DK's down B options are useful, with Hot Slaps perhaps being the best due to its anti-air utility that can cover angles that could otherwise be problematic for DK due to his lack of a good Fair. Also having Will as a player is good for your tourney representation, so I feel like custom DK can hang around as a somewhat relevant high-mid with customs.
 

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Ok, just so I can get an idea of the prominence of this "Heavies aren't very good" thing, does anyone think heavies are actually good? The last 5-7 pages seem to have been entirely focusing on heavies weaknesses.
 
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NachoOfCheese

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Ok, just so I can get an idea of the prominence of this "Heavies aren't very good" thing, does anyone think heavies are actually good? The last 5-7 pages seem to have been entirely focusing on heavies weaknesses.
I hate how we call them "heavies" as if they're all the same thing. It's like trying to class Mario Luigi Wario and Doc as the same class of character.
 

Davis-Lightheart

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I hate how we call them "heavies" as if they're all the same thing. It's like trying to class Mario Luigi Wario and Doc as the same class of character.
But, isn't that what they are? Heavy characters? Even if they have variance around those stereotypes they still fit the peg well.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Ok, just so I can get an idea of the prominence of this "Heavies aren't very good" thing, does anyone think heavies are actually good? The last 5-7 pages seem to have been entirely focusing on heavies weaknesses.
The only good heavies are MM Yoshi Falcon and Rob maybe Ike. These heavies are a lot different from the bowser class of heavy with way more mobility and bettee up close options. But if I wanted to play a heavy I'd play one of these instead of a charizard or something like that.
 

RWB

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I hate how we call them "heavies" as if they're all the same thing. It's like trying to class Mario Luigi Wario and Doc as the same class of character.
Except for Wario, these guys are the Shotos of Smash. They play differently, but you still group them.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Ok, just so I can get an idea of the prominence of this "Heavies aren't very good" thing, does anyone think heavies are actually good? The last 5-7 pages seem to have been entirely focusing on heavies weaknesses.
IDK if they're good, but they do force a relatively unusual dynamic where even if a character wins the matchup on paper, they still have to play super respectfully because heavy characters tend to have really threatening comebacks with just a few reads and/or punishes.

Like, Rosalina facerolls Ganondorf, at least with default specials. But she's so freaking light that Ganondorf can take a stock if she does anything wrong. So their matchup ratio is littered with asterisks that all basically mean "don't **** up or you're dead no matter what these numbers say."
 
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... Falcon is heavy? I thought he had middle-weight?
He has above average weight but his fast falling speed (it may actually be his gravity value, not sure) makes him just as resistant to vertical kills as Ganondorf. He's quite annoying to kill outright.
 

Gunla

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... Falcon is heavy? I thought he had middle-weight?
I'd classify him more as a cruiser, between a mid-weight and a full on heavy. Traits of both.

The thing with heavies is that they traditionally hit very hard, must be respected and can punish very well, but usually are slower moving and have larger hurtboxes. I'd say that in the right mindset, they can at least be decent.
 
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ItsRainingGravy

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A matchup chart isn't a certainty. It just explains the percent chance on what character the matchup will mostly favor.

Even in a matchup where, say, Ganon is at a disadvantage. Sure, your character might have the advantage against him, but if you make too many mistakes against him, he will roflstomp you and bury you deeper than an Atari E.T. cartridge.

This applies to almost every matchup. Heavies have a special notice, because of how strong and plentiful their KO moves are.
 

Smog Frog

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i personally feel its impossible for a heavy to have anything worse than a 7:3 matchup because you can never count them out.
 

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The only good heavies are MM Yoshi Falcon and Rob maybe Ike. These heavies are a lot different from the bowser class of heavy with way more mobility and bettee up close options. But if I wanted to play a heavy I'd play one of these instead of a charizard or something like that.
ROB has better mobility than Bowser? Also Ike is definitely good with customs and DK could be as well. Megaman and Falcon are mid-heavy and Yoshi and ROB are decently heavy but not super heavy. Really the heavies in this game are generally close to being really good, it's just that a lot of them were given additional weaknesses on top of their regular heavy weaknesses like DK's nerfed hitboxes, Bowser's lack of throw combos, D3's loss of the ability to camp and nerfed Bair/Dair, Ganon's bad CQC, and Charizard's landing lag on aerials. I suppose some of these changes had to do with them feeling initially too strong with better tools, especially in the vectoring engine where combos were easier to escape and kill power was at a premium. All of them could pretty easily be brought up to snuff with just one more balance patch, especially if the high tier stuff gets toned down.
 

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ROB has better mobility than Bowser? Also Ike is definitely good with customs and DK could be as well. Megaman and Falcon are mid-heavy and Yoshi and ROB are decently heavy but not super heavy. Really the heavies in this game are generally close to being really good, it's just that a lot of them were given additional weaknesses on top of their regular heavy weaknesses like DK's nerfed hitboxes, Bowser's lack of throw combos, D3's loss of the ability to camp and nerfed Bair/Dair, Ganon's bad CQC, and Charizard's landing lag on aerials. I suppose some of these changes had to do with them feeling initially too strong with better tools, especially in the vectoring engine where combos were easier to escape and kill power was at a premium. All of them could pretty easily be brought up to snuff with just one more balance patch, especially if the high tier stuff gets toned down.
In the air yes but not a faster dash. With R.O.B. he has a better up close game with his jab and dtilt being 3 frames each. Which was part of my point. I don't see the Heavies getting too much better with customs. Bowser gets a mobility tool which coukd help him the most but they're still lacking IMO. Yoshi link and falcon have the same weight and ROB is heavier. I consider link to be a heavy so they fit that mold also imo. MM i probably shouldn't consider as a heavy.

I don't thinj they're particularly good let's call them super heavy weights. DK maybe the best of them and even he's lacking in areas. Customs I didn't factor IDK enough about their customs. However, I think the problems the super heavy weights have deal less with their specials and more to do with them regularly.

Incidentally I left out Bowser Jr. Who not only fits the super heavy weight class but is probably the best of the super heavyweights. Sorry my thoughts kinda jumped around but bowser jr is the same weight as charizard.
 

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Side note: Bowser Jr's bonus damage mechanics give him an effective weight of 108 IIRC.

i personally feel its impossible for a heavy to have anything worse than a 7:3 matchup because you can never count them out.
I don't think any matchup is worse than 7:3, except for very specific matchups like Ganon Vs Mac, Meta Knight vs Mac, and Dedede vs Megaman. Even those are 8:2 at worst.
 
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AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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Side note: Bowser Jr's bonus damage mechanics give him an effective weight of 108 IIRC.



I don't think any matchup is worse than 7:3, except for very specific matchups like Ganon Vs Mac, Meta Knight vs Mac, and Dedede vs Megaman. Even those are 8:2 at worst.
What is this mechanic you're speaking of?
 

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What is this mechanic you're speaking of?
The clown car takes reduced damage (and by extension knockback), while hitting his body directly causes bonus damage.

I'm a little fuzzy on the numbers but I think it's something like x0.88 if the car's hit and x1.15 if Bowser Jr's hit
 
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Rock vs Emperor Penguin is 7-3 if Rock is feeling merciful.

Or he has a computer virus.

Any other time it's legit 9-1.

You will NOT win a set vs a competent opponent.

EVER
 

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The clown car takes reduced damage (and by extension knockback), while hitting his body directly causes bonus damage.

I'm a little fuzzy on the numbers but I think it's something like x0.88 if the car's hit and x1.15 if Bowser Jr's hit
Also, some throws count as a hit to Bowser Jr himself, which makes a crucial difference in our MU because Bthrow suddenly kills far earlier than it should. :grin:

Sorry, I just had to mention it teeehehehee.

Love ya Jr (you are my secondary after all <3)!
 

ItsRainingGravy

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Rock vs Emperor Penguin is 7-3 if Rock is feeling merciful.

Or he has a computer virus.

Any other time it's legit 9-1.

You will NOT win a set vs a competent opponent.

EVER
He better hope Dr. Wily is around with some Roboenza capsules. That way, DeDeDe can throw them with his Side B...

...wait.

Wait no, no he can't.

They removed Side B's ability to throw capsules like it did in Brawl. :(

Oh ****
 
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