Character Competitive Impressions

[PUK]

On the topic of other characters I've been messing around with today: how are people feeling about and with customs on? I know Doc's been a subject a few times, but I wasn't aware of how absurd the knockback is on Soaring Tornado until recently, especially with rage. Not to mention that the hitbox stays out for a whopping 19 frames. Fast pills, alternate capes, and a buffed recovery+(even more) terrifying edgeguarding tool seem like they help him out quite a bit.

ROB I've heard much less about, and I didn't even really know what his customs did before today (I still don't know what most of them do), but I noticed uthrow>Robo Rocket>uair is a rather lenient kill combo starting from around 55~75% without rage, depending on how floaty the opponent is. Even before getting to any other benefits he gets from customs (let alone the much faster recovery that particular custom also provides) being able to kill so early off a grab seems quite substantial in itself.

I pushed a lot about this combo. It's good against npc who doesn't DI strongly, as it's a true combo. But a strong DI ruins it totaly as a test with two controlers can show. Still relevant as you can kill with up air like rosalina does, and the spike can be used safely agaisnt anyone who don't sweetspot the ledge.
Anyway rob doesn't get insane tools, but at least 3 custom are staight upgrade. And he's pretty solid from the beginnig so custom are good on him.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It depends on the heavies. Dedede and Bowser are horrifically vulnerable to juggling regardless of customs and Bowser's recovery isn't all that great either. Dedede's will generally let you survive though it can be predictable and you might have to eat a bit of damage. Ganondorf's escape options are risky but devastating if you can properly read what your opponent will do, especially with Dark Fists as a custom, which actually forces the opponent to be careful while edgeguarding. He's still not very good in disadvantage and prone to combos and frametraps, but his ability to threaten fairly early kills even from disadvantage(I mean more feasibly than stuff like Bowser Dair or Bowser Bomb) can get you more reset opportunities than the aforementioned characters. Custom Charizard and DK are where you start to see heavies with legitimately good reset tools however, and they are the ones I have somewhat higher hopes for in terms of tourney presence. Kong Cyclone is the big tool everyone's been talking about, and while it starts up too slowly to bust DK out of frame tight strings, it can often reset the situation quite nicely, and is pretty safe when platform cancelled. DK still does have these issues to an extent, but they're much more manageable now. Charizard gets both Rock Hurl and Dragon Rush. Rock Hurl's frame 1 armor is excellent for breaking out of frame traps, juggles, and strings that most characters can't, and is something you have to respect when going for a follow up. Dragon Rush gives Charizard a very useful recovery and escape option that's free of recoil and helps further enhance his survivability. A combination of these two tools, multiple jumps, Nair, and Flamethrower makes Zard actually pretty capable of resetting things when he is in trouble, I'd argue above average actually, in spite of his poor airspeed and the fact that his other aerials are bad landing options. So yeah, overall heavies are pretty bad in disadvantage, and this tends to nullify their superior survivability, kill power, and damage output, but there are a few very good customs that change that dynamic to various extents, and I think these will allow certain heavies to be able to hold their own competitively and see some success.

why do people continue to act like dash slash can not be used as an escape option.

 

[Kofu]

I was testing some dthrow combos with custom gnw (custom upb) and I found some cool stuff even tho most of these are already well known by gnw players but still, I tested the popular matchups for him and posted it on the gnw forum already, I tested them against level 9 cpu and most of them are registered by the game as true combos my question is are level 9 CPU good at DI or I'll have to get a real player to test it first?

anyways here there are if someone is interested
vs
-0%
dthrow + heavy upb
dthrow + ftilt
dthrow + jab
*dthrow + fast chef (this works in different % but results may very depending on how the projectiles hit the target)
**dthrow + fastchef + utilt + upb/nair can work depending on DI on different % this is affected a lot by rage
***dthrow + chain judge (this might work up to 40%) **** dthrow+uair works on most %s
-10%
dthrow + ftilt
-15%
dthrow + utilt + heavy upb
-20%
dthrow + utilt + utilt + nair
-25%
dthrow + utilt + heavy upb
-30%
dthrow + utilt + heavy upb + dair
dthrow + utilt + heavy upb + nair
dthrow + utilt + heavy upb + bair
these mix ups depend on the utilt DI
-35%
dthrow + utilt + nair
* from here dthrow+fast chef+utilt/jab becomes a situational string
-41%
dthrow + utilt + heavy upb + nair - true combo guaranteed
-45%
dthrow + utilt
-50%
dthrow + nairs + judge
* from 50% onwards aerial judge becomes easier to setup after throws
-55%
dthrow + nair + heavy upb
-60%
dthrow + nair + heavy upb + nair
-70%
dthrow + upb
-143%
dthrow + upb stops working here
vs
-0%
dthrow+jab
dthrow+dtilt
dthrow+heavy upb
uthrow+upb
-16%
dthrow+utilt+heavy upb+uair (44% true combo)
dthrow+utilt+utilt
dthrow+utilt+nair
-20%
dthrow+utilt+heavy upb+nair (36% true combo)
dthrow+utilt+heavy upb+dair (39% true combo)
dthrow+utilt+heavy uapb+uair (35% true combo)
-25%
dthrow+utilt+heavy uapb+uair
-30%
dthrow+nair
dthrow+upb
-35%
dthrow+nair
dthrow+upb
from here short hop dthrow+uair starts working as a true combo
-40%
dthrow+nair
dthrow+upb
-45%
dthrow+nair
dthrow+upb
-55%
dthrow+nair does not work anymore
from here you dthrow+uair true combo needs 2 jumps instead of one, stays as a true combo.
-81%
dthrow+upb does not work anymore
dthrow+uair still works here
-87%-91%
here dthrow+uair is a true combo and kills but its extremely hard to do you have 1 or 2 frames to do it, with rage this might kill earlier.
-93%
dthrow+uair stops working
-96%-101%
dthrow+foxtrot+uair true combo and kills

These are handy and something I need to look more into, but good DI messes up Game & Watch's DThrow followups. Against fast-falling characters I'm not sure if anything is guaranteed at 0% because they can DI to the ground and shield (though I believe that jab is fast enough to trap them in their shields). Either way his DThrow is something that is not to be underestimated, especially not with his high-damage aerials (UAir does the same damage as uncharged USmash and NAir does more). Baiting airdodges into UAir works regardless of customs and is a great kill option.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The problem with heavies isn't their lack of close quarters options. That's part of a larger picture. Their main issue is that when they're in a bad position, they have a really hard resetting the momentum back to neutral. This is most emphasized if they're being juggled, frame trapped, or edge guarded. If an average or light weight character gives an inch, the opponent will take a mile. If a heavyweight gives an inch, the opponent will take several miles.

There's really no get out of jail free card in this game. If you're getting juggled you're going to have to take that. If you're in a bad situation you're going to have to take that. Resetting to neutral isn't always good especially for heavies who work hard to get in. But the lack of options to deal with shield pressure hurts the lack of mix ups after hurt them.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

On the topic of other characters I've been messing around with today: how are people feeling about and with customs on? I know Doc's been a subject a few times, but I wasn't aware of how absurd the knockback is on Soaring Tornado until recently, especially with rage. Not to mention that the hitbox stays out for a whopping 19 frames. Fast pills, alternate capes, and a buffed recovery+(even more) terrifying edgeguarding tool seem like they help him out quite a bit.

ROB I've heard much less about, and I didn't even really know what his customs did before today (I still don't know what most of them do), but I noticed uthrow>Robo Rocket>uair is a rather lenient kill combo starting from around 55~75% without rage, depending on how floaty the opponent is. Even before getting to any other benefits he gets from customs (let alone the much faster recovery that particular custom also provides) being able to kill so early off a grab seems quite substantial in itself.

I think Doc with up-2 and down-2 at the same time is a very interesting character. You give up a lot of good stuff for that, but this is a version of Mario's moveset that can recover from literally anywhere. If you generally main Mario but are against someone you think you can beat by just chasing deep, deep off-stage, I think that version of Doc could be a huge help and it's to me the most relevant case of using one of the otherwise inferior clone characters as a counterpick since that's a pretty big gameplay dynamic that customs enable Doc to execute better than Mario.

There's really no get out of jail free card in this game. If you're getting juggled you're going to have to take that. If you're in a bad situation you're going to have to take that. Resetting to neutral isn't always good especially for heavies who work hard to get in. But the lack of options to deal with shield pressure hurts the lack of mix ups after hurt them.

I was with you until you said heavies have poor options to deal with shield pressure. Across the board (well, other than poor Ganon) they have massive grab range, and Bowser further has the might that is Whirling Fortress out of shield which is to be real one of the main reasons you might play Bowser. Charizard has several fairly realistic options in addition to his enormous grab: Fly is feasible, he has one of the faster usmashes OoS, his jab is pretty good so shield drop jab is a thing, and if you're carrying it and they're just rushing so hard shield drop Rock Hurl will force respect. I feel like DK isn't quite as good as the other heavies at this especially if he has Kong Cyclone (default Spinning Kong is actually probably a better OoS option), and King Dedede just doesn't have any kind of fast buttons in general but at least his grab range is just fantastic and I believe his spotdodge is faster than that of the other heavies (purely anecdotal, no evidence supports this claim). Ganon has... very little, but Ganon is of course by design bad in all situations but the advantage position. Regardless, I wouldn't really look at shield pressure in general as a notable thing heavies are worse at dealing with than everyone else. Their main weakness as a group is pretty poor movement which limits their mix-up and can easily create situations where they are forced to make lackluster approaches; in any kind of game situation where people are stationary, I think they tend to excel.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

He has some but they're not silly enough. They should be the silliest in the game, since he has to work the hardest to land them. That's just basic fighting game design. If a character has to work hard to get an opening, when they do it should be devastating. By comparison, highly mobile characters should get much lesser reward on hit.


In fact, I would suggest that when balancing a game, you should start off by making the heavy characters by far the best in the game, then gradually buff everyone else until they can compete with them. This likely works better than making the other characters godlike and then trying to find some way for heavies to get around that.

Not even Street Fighter gets this right (see also: T.Hawk, who is terrible on basically every level). It's really, really hard to do. The main issue really is that slow characters don't move fast enough for combos. Like, sure, T.Hawk's heavy command throw does 250 damage and is a frame two grab. You know what else does 250 damage? Any basic meterless hit confirm from someone like Cammy or Fei Long. Oh, and they get a knockdown afterwards which they can do something with, and those hit confirms are generally pretty safe, unlike T.Hawk.

Bowser doesn't even need to work all that hard to get hits unless he's going in against a good projectile camper. He certainly doesn't have to work nearly as hard as Ganon, Charizard, or Dedede to land hits, and might even be a bit better than DK in this respect. His problems are mainly the fact that he rarely gets any sort of followup off of his hits and that he's complete juggle and gimp fodder once someone else gets in on him, not really his neutral game.

Like, just to make this issue clear, what does Shiek get off a grab? At lower %s, she gets fair strings and combos until you're offstage, and usually a solid 30-50%; at high %s setups to kill moves. What does Bowser get off a grab? 13 damage, and a relatively weak killing bthrow which might end a stock around 130 if you're lucky. And of course, Shiek is much faster and has a much faster grab, as well as more options which you just have to respect, whereas Bowser just doesn't. This is and basically always has been the big issue with heavies. Ganon in this game almost gets it right, but doesn't get it right enough. Heavies need to not just hit harder, they need to hit way harder, because the fragile speedsters get combos to 50-60% basically for free, and Heavies are usually too slow to have decent combos.

Snake got it. You need tons of tools for a heavy to be decent, and you need to hit like a ****ing truck. He had both, and the added advantage that he was in a game with fewer combos. But here's the thing - Snake didn't play like a heavy. Your traditional heavy is a close-range Brawler; Snake's best tools were ridiculously powerful stage control traps and a bunch of projectiles. He also wasn't slow - his best tools were around 5-6 frames, and were risky to punish. The archetype just doesn't work very well in Smash, unless we want to talk about Brawl-, where it did work, but only because we cranked the heavies up to 11. Ganon worked in Brawl- because one hit usually meant losing your stock. Sure, it did for a lot of the cast, but with Ganon it was just really blatantly obvious.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Snake was legit broken ftilt was one of tbe most absurd movrs in brawl as was utilt. It literally madeno sense. Snake also had dthrow tech chase. Which is a better option than what any current heavy has. You put your opponent in a bad situation and you cover their options.

I don't think any of the heavies will get a speed boost which puts them at a disadvantage. But quick moves and the ability to put your opponent in bad spots should also be something the heavies have. So they're pretty flawed design wise.

 

[Nobie]

Almost all of the heavies have been buffed in terms of mobility for Smash 4, just not in every single category. Bowser runs as fast as Marth and air speed is middle of the road-ish. Donkey Kong is cumbersome but nimble. Wario is quick in the air, slow on the ground. Dedede and ROB have great recoveries, etc. etc.

At some point though, I think it starts to be less about balance in terms of probability of winning, and more about unique gameplay. I think the obvious response to my examples above is "what about frame data," but I think it's just as important that each character feel a certain way while playing so that they offer unique experiences. I think they did an especially good job with Bowser in this regard, because even though he has the ground speed it feels more as if he's this juggernaut charging at you rather than a green, muscular Sonic.

 

[Nocally]

So heavies needs to hit harder and be faster? put on some custom equipment and problem solved. Of course then we run in to a whole other set of problems.

 

[Smog Frog]

or, you could give heavies tools to overcome classic weaknesses(bad disadvantage for the most part, also a good neutral helps). this is most seen in and . moreso because dongnado is dumb, but has dragon rush and frame 1 super armor in his disadvantage, and ground speed and flamethrower for neutral.

 

[Antonykun]

dongnado

Well my day has been made, what about yours?

I personally am not too fond of heavies even though I love how manly they tend to look. For the most part heavies rely on the opponent making a mistake dues to the pressure of them maybe getting hit.

I am also finding it weird that people are talking about what heavies need and stuff

 

[Smog Frog]

well, we're talking what they need because heavies are traditionally the low/mid tier characters. the only exception i can think of is .

 

[Radical Larry]

well, we're talking what they need because heavies are traditionally the low/mid tier characters. the only exception i can think of is .

Do I even need to state why this is wrong in so many levels?

 

[Smog Frog]

Do I even need to state why this is wrong in so many levels?

we're talking heavies as an archetype not a statistic

 

[HeavyLobster]

why do people continue to act like dash slash can not be used as an escape option.

Guess I should've mentioned it, as it does make Bowser a bit better than Dedede in terms of escape options, but Bowser's still pretty bad in disadvantage even with it. It's got some nice tricks but it's no Dragon Rush, and unfortunately Bowser is hampered by stupid things like being unable to grab the ledge with his Up-B while facing away from the ledge(or grab it with Dash Slash for that matter), and this makes using Dash Slash to reset to the ledge or as a recovery option less effective. I find Dash Slash to be really good in neutral but just OK in disadvantage, and not as useful as the other tools I mentioned.

 

[Balgorxz]

These are handy and something I need to look more into, but good DI messes up Game & Watch's DThrow followups. Against fast-falling characters I'm not sure if anything is guaranteed at 0% because they can DI to the ground and shield (though I believe that jab is fast enough to trap them in their shields). Either way his DThrow is something that is not to be underestimated, especially not with his high-damage aerials (UAir does the same damage as uncharged USmash and NAir does more). Baiting airdodges into UAir works regardless of customs and is a great kill option.

yeah the interesting ones there are the mix ups with the custom upb because we tested them with DI and they still work.

 

[S_B]

If a heavyweight gives an inch, the opponent will take several miles.

And I feel like this is a general flaw in fighting game design (or at least in SSB). If a light character is able to combo a heavy character to hell and back off of a single opening, it basically negates the advantage of being a heavy character almost entirely.

Taking 50% more damage before being in kill range is meaningless if you're stupid easy to combo for 50% damage...

 

[Locke 06]

And I feel like this is a general flaw in fighting game design (or at least in SSB). If a light character is able to combo a heavy character to hell and back off of a single opening, it basically negates the advantage of being a heavy character almost entirely.

Taking 50% more damage before being in kill range is meaningless if you're stupid easy to combo for 50% damage...

Enter: rage mechanic.

 

[Nobie]

You know what's in other fighting games that might solve the issues that people are talking about here? Some form of damage scaling.

In a lot of other fighting games, if combos go on for too long, the damage each hit does will become less and less over time, sort of like Stale Moves, only it affects all moves within a combo. Of course, Smash combos aren't quite the same, so that might not apply well, but i'm sure there'd be a way.

A second form of damage scaling, however, is applied to moves that are very easy to combo from. For example, if a character has a quick, reliable poke that can lead into combos or other strong attacks, it's often the case that all attacks following that initial poke will be reduced in power. Again, Smash is different, so it might have to be that the scaling only lasts until the opponent hits the ground.

So let's say Diddy Kong does a down throw. In this scenario, if he did a down throw, his up-air follow-up would be at half the damage and knockback, and every hit after that would be increasigly weaker as well. In contrast, Bowser's attacks would have very little damage scaling, so his jab into whatever would be a lot more potent in terms of power.

 

[Ffamran]

And I feel like this is a general flaw in fighting game design (or at least in SSB). If a light character is able to combo a heavy character to hell and back off of a single opening, it basically negates the advantage of being a heavy character almost entirely.

Taking 50% more damage before being in kill range is meaningless if you're stupid easy to combo for 50% damage...

It's more of a general flaw to almost every game in existence. Fast weapons, fast classes with good DPS or burst damage, or some exploit can make them broken while heavy, slow stuff becomes pathetic to say the least. Let's see... I think Modern Warfare 3 reduced shotguns to peashooters and SMGs were very good, in inFAMOUS 2, I remember the machine-gun bolt power just made good Cole so much easier than evil Cole's gameplay, and speed in Fire Emblem allowed you to double enemies meaning you could attack twice and with how Awakening worked where you could change classes and grind if you need/want to, characters with naturally good speed and power were more useful than having a tank... then again, there was the whole Sorcerer with amazing defense and magic defense for some reason, so you could tank damage and wreck people with them.

The theory of fast/weak and slow/strong doesn't always work out right. I know Dissidia has several slower characters like Exdeath, Golbez?, and Garland, but we're talking about a game from a series known for wacky weapons and swords taller than the character. Exdeath's moveset was entirely on countering, Golbez was a mage, and Garland could change his weapon's form alongside having range. Still, there were characters like Firion who weren't that great in the first game. I don't know much about Dissidia, so I'll leave it at that.

Heavyweights in this game are mostly up close even though Triple D and Ike have weapons, they're still mostly fighting at close combat. Snake didn't have to do that. He was more like Link and Toon Link who could choose to fight at close, mid, and long-range. Add in his power, disjoints, heavyweight status, and attack speed, we had a monster who could rack up damage, space you out, force you to pick options, and beat the living hell out of you.

 

[S_B]

well, we're talking what they need because heavies are traditionally the low/mid tier characters. the only exception i can think of is .

And because our heavies are all low tier this time.

Enter: rage mechanic.

...which is nice, but it doesn't fix the underlying problem. If that were the case, the tiers would be more even but we still see heavies falling to the bottom.

You know what's in other fighting games that might solve the issues that people are talking about here? Some form of damage scaling.

In a lot of other fighting games, if combos go on for too long, the damage each hit does will become less and less over time, sort of like Stale Moves, only it affects all moves within a combo. Of course, Smash combos aren't quite the same, so that might not apply well, but i'm sure there'd be a way.

A second form of damage scaling, however, is applied to moves that are very easy to combo from. For example, if a character has a quick, reliable poke that can lead into combos or other strong attacks, it's often the case that all attacks following that initial poke will be reduced in power. Again, Smash is different, so it might have to be that the scaling only lasts until the opponent hits the ground.

So let's say Diddy Kong does a down throw. In this scenario, if he did a down throw, his up-air follow-up would be at half the damage and knockback, and every hit after that would be increasigly weaker as well. In contrast, Bowser's attacks would have very little damage scaling, so his jab into whatever would be a lot more potent in terms of power.

I love this idea.

Guilty Gear has a built-in infinite prevention system by making a character heavier and heavier the longer they stay in the air, meaning that they will only ever be able to be comboed for so long before they make it to the ground.

They could either do something like this or make it so DI was more effective the more times a character was hit consecutively. After 2-3 hits, it would be almost impossible to not be able to shift out of the combo.

Large hurtbox characters are already at a disadvantage because they're a bigger target naturally. This would at least allow these characters to escape after that initial hit (which was easier to land anyway).

 

[Luco]

Heavyweights in this game are mostly up close even though Triple D and Ike have weapons, they're still mostly fighting at close combat. Snake didn't have to do that. He was more like Link and Toon Link who could choose to fight at close, mid, and long-range. Add in his power, disjoints, heavyweight status, and attack speed, we had a monster who could rack up damage, space you out, force you to pick options, and beat the living hell out of you.

It's also quite worthy of mentioning that Snake was able to avoid juggling scenarios more adeptly than other heavies in Brawl due to B-reversed grenades, allowing him to change momentum at a moment's notice. He still had issues with some faster characters and MK but this was definitely one of his beneficial traits as a heavy.

In fact, I think the easiest way to balance heavies would be to give them ways to avoid juggling scenarios a little more easily. B-reversed specials are one way, or specials that cover distance quickly generally. I wonder how else you could do it... perhaps something like buffing their airdodges or something... =P

 

[san.]

Heavies were good until vertical vectoring was removed.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Heavies were good until vertical vectoring was removed.

are you implying thier bad now? cuz that really does not seem to be the case.

 

[S_B]

are you implying thier bad now? cuz that really does not seem to be the case.

DK, D3 and Bowser, the three largest hurtboxes and literal heaviest characters, are all in E-tier or close to it, last I checked.

Who are you referring to, here?

 

[Smog Frog]

all tier lists are garbage as of now, i wouldnt trust them

also if DK is in e tier everything else in that list is automatically false

 

[S_B]

all tier lists are garbage as of now, i wouldnt trust them

also if DK is in e tier everything else in that list is automatically false

Then what are any of us basing our opinions off of?

I watch tons of tournament videos and the tier list posted a few pages back is corroborated by everything I've seen.

I realize the meta is still objectively young, but do we honestly expect any of these heavies to suddenly shoot up 2-3 tiers?

 

[Quickhero]

@ S_B Tournament gameplay and results, with some personal success and discovered tech in-between, what else?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Then what are any of us basing our opinions off of?

I watch tons of tournament videos and the tier list posted a few pages back is corroborated by everything I've seen.

I realize the meta is still objectively young, but do we honestly expect any of these heavies to suddenly shoot up 2-3 tiers?

Airbender Kong is soaring up the tier list as we speak. Custom Zard is also underrated, though still not better than mid tier.

 

[Luco]

Then what are any of us basing our opinions off of?

I watch tons of tournament videos and the tier list posted a few pages back is corroborated by everything I've seen.

I realize the meta is still objectively young, but do we honestly expect any of these heavies to suddenly shoot up 2-3 tiers?

People have tier lists in their head which are (ideally) fluid and changing as results and new evidence comes up that supports the movement of characters. Until an official tier list is made (most likely by the community this time, if what @SmashCapps said rings true), then all we have is a general idea of where each character is.

That doesn't mean we can't agree on things though. It should be noted that most people think DK is really very good, especially with customs, and that Bowser/Ganny aren't terribad at the very least.

We have (at least decently) good heavies this game, including DK and Ike and possibly others that I'm forgetting. =)

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

One big problem that a lot of the heavies have isn't just mobility, being combo bait, being grab bait, and not having the safest of moves.


Another problem that they have is flexibility. And honestly, I would say that it is their worst problem, tied with their mobility issues (which have been fixed somewhat in Smash 4, at least in terms of ground mobility).


Let's look at the top tiers in this game. Yeah, they are all fast, have safe options, and have great combos. But another thing that makes them so amazing is the sheer flexibility they have with their movesets. Sheik has Bouncing Fish to serve as a KO move, burst option, and recovery option. She also has needles as a ranged option to build up damage, harass opponents, and punish shields (Piercing Needles). And her recovery, while not the best, can be aimed in 8 directions and is a strong KO move to boot.

Diddy, on the other hand, loses out on flexibility in terms of mobility and tilts, but gains even more flexibility in his specials. Diddy's Side B and Down B are easily some of the best specials in the entire game. Monkey Flip is an amazing approach option to surprise the opponent, to punish spotdodging and rolling, for techchases, and it is even great to use in the air to aid towards his recovery or to try to gimp opponents. And Bananas, oh god bananas. They can be used in a plethora of situations that allows Diddy to always have a good degree of stage control whenever he wants. And their most famous application being Banana -> Hoo-Hah in Smash 4. And his Up B recovery, while punishable, allows him to go under stages and he can even aim it downwards in Smash 4 to try to help him snap to the ledge (I think?).

And now, Pikachu. Thunder Jolt is a solid projectile, especially when used in the air. Thunder allows him to cover people whom are above him, and potentially meteor the opponent with the uppermost hitbox or lead into the strong hitbox around Pikachu. And Quick Attack is probably one of the best recoveries in the entire game. Not only does it have phenomenal distance and speed, but you can angle it in any direction. Twice. This makes his recovery quite unpredictable in certain situations. And what makes it even scarier is that it is even incredibly useful on the stage as well, offering him a myriad of escape and approach options at his own leisure.



The top tiers in this game, while nimble and light, have another incredible strength to their own besides their mobility. It is because their moves offer a lot of flexibility to cover a wide range of options. And this flexibility is something that a lot of heavy characters lack.

You have Bowser's Flying Slam, which...has a small hitbox that only really works if you are in your opponent's face, and only for a brief moment because Bowser swipes his claw and then the grabbox disappears. A Flamethrower to build damage and have other applications, but no real followups afterwards due to the move's endlag. You have Bowser Bomb, which is very strong but also slow and linear. But at least he has Whirling Fortress being an amazing move. Even though it is punishable at the end of the move, it is a solid recovery and a really good OoS option.

DK is similar to Bowser but with some differences. Headbutt can break shields, but only hits directly in front of him and is slow. Giant Punch is very strong, but again, only hits in front of him. And you can't really use it in the air without killing yourself (why sakurai). Plus you need to charge the move. Hand Slap is solid in that it is very effective at breaking shields and has range...until you jump it and kick DK in the face. And Spinning Kong is a decent recovery but unlike Bowser's you lose OoS applications with the move.

DeDeDe is the last heavy I will cover. He has even less options and flexibility than the other two heavies have. Not only does he have to worry about that, but he is overall the slowest heavy in the game, as his aerial speed is atrocious. You have Inhale, which can be BLOCKED due to relying on windboxes. Gordos that serve as a solid projectile...until someone slaps them back into your face. A linear recovery move that is very punishable. And...uh...a practically non-existent Down B. Um. Yay?



Compared to the top tiers, heavies have another huge problem to worry about besides their mobility. They don't usually have a lot of moves that cover a wide range of options. And I feel as though this is the true reason that is holding them back, besides being combo/grab bait.

Wario is a really good example of what I mean. He is a heavy, but he isn't nearly as bad as the other heavy characters. But why? Why is that? Several reasons honestly. First off, he has amazing aerial mobility. Among the top 3 in the entire game, despite him being slow on the ground. He also has very good aerials which can help him stop being combo bait in the form of Nair, Dair, and Fair. His moves in general are quicker than the other heavies, allowing him to be in a safer position without sacrificing much KO power or bulk to compensate. But his last strength that allows him to be better than the other heavies is in his flexibility. Chomp is a grab move that can be used in the air. Unlike Koopa Claw and Inhale however, it somewhat combines the strengths of both but without the weaknesses. It is a lingering hitbox like Inhale, but it doesn't rely on windboxes unlike Inhale. Not to mention he can eat projectiles with Chomp, including Charge Shots or even a Thoron. The only real problem it has is endlag, but smart play avoids this. You have Corkscrew which is actually a really good OoS option and decent recovery. It does 13% damage, has good knockback and can sometimes score KOs, and it is pretty quick and covers both sides of Wario. Waft is a one-hit wonder that has a lot of intimidation factor behind it, which KO opponents at absurd percents and does the most damage out of any standard attack in the game (I think). It can also aid his recovery in a pinch. Lastly, the bike. While Wario's Corkscrew isn't the best recovery (though still decent), Wario's natural aerial mobility and bike allow him to take his recovery to whole new levels. It gives him a ton of range, and a fair amount of unpredictability. Both on the ground and in the air. He can jump out of it whenever he wants to, go fast/slow with it, pop wheelies that trade endlag for a surprising amount of KO potential if you manage to hit with the wheel on its way down, and it allows him to plow through opponent's projectiles in some regards.



Wario is one of the game's greatest heavy characters not only because of his mobility, but because his moves cover a lot of options. Something that the other heavy characters mostly lack. If the other heavy characters had Wario's flexibility, they would be a lot better. In fact, we have seen this in the form of Custom Moves.

Bowser gets Dash Grab/Dash Claw, DK gets Kong Cyclone/Jumping Headbutt/etc, Ganondorf gets Wizard's Dropkick and Dark Fists, heck even D3 gets Bouncing Gordos/Taste Test/other Up B options (even though down B is still mostly bad no matter what you pick).


The key to making heavies viable is not to remove their core weaknesses that offsets their bulk. But rather, to give them more flexibility that helps them cover a wider array of options, just like the top tiers in this game. It just-so happens that the top tiers of this game, at least in regards to a non-customs environment, are all lightweight characters. But they are/were top tier for more reasons than just their mobility and combo strings.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

DK, D3 and Bowser, the three largest hurtboxes and literal heaviest characters, are all in E-tier or close to it, last I checked.

Who are you referring to, here?

all of them but de3 with customs.

 

[Blobface]

Disadvantage for Heavies isn't that bad. Sure, they get true combo'd up, down, and sideways, but outside of true combos/frame tight strings, the only one with a bad disadvantage is bowser, who's landing options are predictable and have crazy landing lag. Charizard has nair, dragon rush, and rock smash, DK has nair and up-b, Dedede has nair and five jumps, and Ganon has nair, uair, and wizards foot.

Also, heavies aren't always getting combo'd at any %. Sure, Sheik can tack on 40-50% from 0%, but after that, things get dicey. Combos will stop being frame tight and the Heavy will get a chance to fight back.

Also, heavies don't just do more damage per hit and kill earlier. They kill much more reliably. In a game where most characters are restricted to 3 or so specific kill options, having half your moveset kill is a huge benefit.

Completely irrelevant fact: It'sRainingGravy, Aerial Reverse Warlock Punch is technically stronger than waft at 42%, and it'll instantly kill, but well, it's an aerial reverse warlock punch, so it's not really useful.

 

[san.]

are you implying thier bad now? cuz that really does not seem to be the case.

It was a large decrease in survivability and combo escape while their kill power didn't increase that much since vectoring had a smaller effect on powerful moves. Add in the removal of forcing an aerial before suffering air dodge lag and they lost many implicit advantages from when the game first came out.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It was a large decrease in survivability and combo escape while their kill power didn't increase that much since vectoring had a smaller effect on powerful moves. Add in the removal of forcing an aerial before suffering air dodge lag and they lost many implicit advantages from when the game first came out.

Ah see that sounds reasonable all i registered was they are poop now.

 

[S_B]

On this entire subject, what major tournaments are allowing customs now?

 

[Balgorxz]

ganon is everything but bad now that customs are legal in 80% of the tournaments

 

[Road Death Wheel]

On this entire subject, what major tournaments are allowing customs now?

evo

 

[S_B]

evo

And Evo is 80% of tournaments?

Apex and S@X still aren't allowing them (unless that's changed recently), and even if they were, I don't think customs are going to be the magic panacea everyone seems to think. So far, DK is doing better, but who else is rising in tier lists because of customs?

Dash slash makes Bowser better, but it's not solving ALL of his problems or anything and it's pretty much agreed on the Bowser forums that the remainder of his customs are junk.

I just don't think we can be saying, "...But CUSTOMS!" in response to the general imbalance of the game in favoring light, fast characters...

And god forbid Sakurai/Namco don't feel the need to balance the game because of customs...

 

[Smog Frog]

s@x did them this last tuesday