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Character Competitive Impressions

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HeavyLobster

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If he gets in, you get the hell out of there or get annihilated, which is how heavies should work.
I thought that was how Ganondorf already worked. I killed a Mario last night at 40% with a rage-boosted Dark Fists from stage level. You don't want to let a character in who has the potential to armor through your attack and splatter you across the screen at ludicrously low %s, even if it takes a hard read to pull off. Plus he's got viable 40-50% damage strings to get you to kill %s very quickly and brutal edgeguarding.
His reward is more than adequate, it's just that characters like Diddy have disproportionately good reward given the ease with which they get in.
 
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Terotrous

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His reward is more than adequate, it's just that characters like Diddy have disproportionately good reward given the ease with which they get in.
I don't know, I feel at the very least all heavies should get something substantial off every grab. All heavies should probably possess both a kill throw and a combo throw. The fact that, say, Bowser's reward on a grab is not very high is just dumb.

(Unless they are heavies who are also zoners, in which case maybe one or the other is fine).
 
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ChronoPenguin

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The real problem with the heavies is that in Smash, mobility and power are directly correlated due to how combos work. Fast characters tend to have the most powerful combos since they can follow-up the easiest, and their speed also generally makes it easiest for them to land kill moves.

I've said this before, but I think the main thing that heavies need to be viable is that their reward on hit needs to be the highest in the cast.


For example, suppose you couldn't tech Ganondorf Flame Choke, and that DTilt now comboed into Fair consistently. This character goes from being maybe one of the worst to being top tier or close. If he gets in, you get the hell out of there or get annihilated, which is how heavies should work. This sounds insane simply because we're so used to heavies behind bad, but no one bats an eye at the fast characters having godlike combos into kill moves like this.
Their reward on hit is fine. The long and short is that characters that wrack up damage well, safely with good approach tools should be light, or have some other notable problem. Those characters are not "That light".
I make the bold claim that if Diddy and Sheik had Puff weight, they'd automatically would not be top tier on a practical level.
 

Terotrous

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Their reward on hit is fine. The long and short is that characters that wrack up damage well, safely with good approach tools should be light, or have some other notable problem. Those characters are not "That light".
I make the bold claim that if Diddy and Sheik had Puff weight, they'd automatically would not be top tier on a practical level.
That's really almost the same thing to be honest, you're just making it so that everyone else gets higher reward on hit vs Diddy and Sheik.


Anyway, it's basically just a matter of "how strong do you want the characters to be?" You can have everyone be about as strong as, say, Yoshi, or you can make everyone as weak as Samus. Both can lead to a balanced game, but the former is more fun IMO.
 
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HeavyLobster

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I don't know, I feel at the very least all heavies should get something substantial off every grab. All heavies should probably possess both a kill throw and a combo throw. The fact that, say, Bowser's reward on a grab is not very high is just dumb.

(Unless they are heavies who are also zoners, in which case maybe one or the other is fine).
Ganon needs adequate grab range more than a kill throw tbh. He also needs a faster jab more than he needs increased reward, as much as he'd like untechable Side-B and thunderstorming, which would make his punish game the undisputed best.
 

Terotrous

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Ganon needs adequate grab range more than a kill throw tbh. He also needs a faster jab more than he needs increased reward, as much as he'd like untechable Side-B and thunderstorming, which would make his punish game the undisputed best.
Yes he may need a couple other things as well, but I stand by the fact that SideB should be untechable at the very least. I don't think it'd come anywhere close to making him broken, either.
 

HeavyLobster

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Yes he may need a couple other things as well, but I stand by the fact that SideB should be untechable at the very least. I don't think it'd come anywhere close to making him broken, either.
It'd just make him as good offline as he is online.
 

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The other issue is you can't even consistently get Dtilt off of a missed tech on Flame Choke on the entire cast. It only works vs. a chunk of the cast I believe.

They should probably fix that first, but a lot of Ganon's really cool reads/optimal choke followups come from good tech reads so.....
 

S_B

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@ S_B S_B I'm almost 100% sure you didn't include custom moves, so I can safely say your answer is the custom meta.

Ike (already above average without customs), (especially) DK, Ganondorf, Bowser, and even Charizard and Samus all get significantly buffed with access to customs. That basically covers every heavy weight except for King Dedede, unless there's something I'm missing. :(
The custom meta is a different story, but the standard meta is coming out pretty clear right now.
 

HeavyLobster

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The other issue is you can't even consistently get Dtilt off of a missed tech on Flame Choke on the entire cast. It only works vs. a chunk of the cast I believe.

They should probably fix that first, but a lot of Ganon's really cool reads/optimal choke followups come from good tech reads so.....
Yeah, but for balancing purposes they'd also have to take away Flame Choke->Dark Fists on Olimar too if Flame Choke were untechable. Guaranteed kill confirms at 50-60% is probably too much even for Ganondorf.
 

HeavyLobster

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I'd rather them keep the tech but make the missed tech punishes ACTUALLY CONSISTENT because that would do so much!
You mean make Ganondorf's frame advantage off a missed tech universally 10 frames. That would give him Choke -> Dtilt on everyone off a missed tech and Choke -> Ftilt on fatter characters. It would help indeed vs. the likes of Sheik.
 

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Only 12 characters have no flame choke follow ups, and only 2 of them actually create a problem (Rosa and Sheik, and you'd never use Flame Choke against Rosa to begin with). I do agree that Ganon should always get a guaranteed follow up off a missed tech, but having it be untechable would be crazy. People don't like when Diddy kills off a grab setup at 120%, having Ganon kill at 80% from Flame Choke > F-tilt would be broken.

Also, I saw a video of Marth using crescent slash, and I just don't see how Marth is that bad. It seems to me it's a move with almost no drawbacks that kills at 70% and is set up by half of his moveset. Unless we were talking about no-customs or I'm missing some huge weakness.
 

Terotrous

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People don't like when Diddy kills off a grab setup at 120%, having Ganon kill at 80% from Flame Choke > F-tilt would be broken.
Ganon at least has to work for that Flame Choke though. I also welcome the day when people look at a heavy character and cry "broken!", because that would mean they were actually decently viable for a change.

We're all so used to the concept that heavies should have no good tools that we can't even bring ourselves to imagine a world where they actually have stuff that's really strong.
 
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Luco

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Ganon at least has to work for that Flame Choke though. I also welcome the day when people look at a heavy character and cry "broken!", because that would mean they were actually decently viable for a change.

We're all so used to the concept that heavies should have no good tools that we can't even bring ourselves to imagine a world where they actually have stuff that's really strong.
:snake: ? =P
 

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I never understood these "what if x had this" discussions, how is imagining characters that have things they currently don't have matter?
 
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ChronoPenguin

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That's really almost the same thing to be honest, you're just making it so that everyone else gets higher reward on hit vs Diddy and Sheik.


Anyway, it's basically just a matter of "how strong do you want the characters to be?" You can have everyone be about as strong as, say, Yoshi, or you can make everyone as weak as Samus. Both can lead to a balanced game, but the former is more fun IMO.
Except the truth is that Bowser & his contemporaries actually do have high reward on hit and the majority of characters have to respect that from start-to-finish. Reality is we have a small part of the cast (as always) that is overperforming with better Risk:reward then the rest of their peers.
I don't see how fun factors in.

Its why I have qualms with Stamina mode. Stamina mode gives everyone the same health....yet characters dont have the same "effective" health in the base game.
Bowser has a lot of "health" given his incredible weight, as does DDD. Kirby & Puff do not. Kirby & Puff are obligated to make significantly less errors then other characters, because while their recoveries allow them to be gimped less frequently, heavies were not planning to gimp them in the first place. However If I put them in Stamina mode with the same health pool as Bowser....I think we're talking a completely different situation. Which is why the weight is so relevant because it goes right back to the base game. I don't have to touch anything about your offensive game as Diddy other then saying "You die 15% earlier" and watch all the implications of that.

To me though I think this is partially idealism. I believe Smash actually aims for circular balance.
 
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Luco

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I never understood these "what if x had this" discussions, how is imagining characters that have things they currently don't have matter?
I suppose on one hand it doesn't, but on the other hand if you can imagine what a character with x tool would look like, then it's likely you can also understand what the character without x tool looks like and why that might affect their tier placement.

It's kinda a convoluted way of doing things, and I admit the discussion is usually initiated purely out of fun, but it could theoretically have some meaning. I dunno. :o
 

Terotrous

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I never understood these "what if x had this" discussions, how is imagining characters that have things they currently don't have matter?
It's tangentially related to the concept of a tier list. As I was saying some pages back, fighting game characters are generally sorted into well-known archetypes that have typical strengths and weaknesses. For example, one character might be fast but weak, while another is slow but strong, one is strong at range but weak up close, while another is strong up close but has to work hard to get there, and so on. The important thing about all of these archetypes is that for the most part, they are balanced against each other. If every character conformed to their archetypes fairly closely we'd likely have a game with a predictable matchup chart that was generally balanced.


However, there are always characters who exceed their design paradigms. Consider Diddy, for example. Diddy is both fast and strong. He's very strong at close range and can get there easily. He even has good defense. Similarly, compare a character like Samus. She's supposed to be strong at range but weak up close, but her projectiles are badly designed, leaving her also weak at range (in customs off, at least). This is what makes Diddy Kong an amazing character and Samus a poor one. Then there are Captain Falcon, who gives you exactly what you'd expect from his character archetype, and thus he is good but not broken.


This is how the theoretical discussion of how characters confirming to their archetypes fits into the discussion of which characters are strong. "How would you fix it?" is perhaps slightly superfluous, but it gets us thinking about just what tools certain characters need to be good, which may help us better understand the rest of the cast.
 

Antonykun

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i wouldnt argue wario is a heavy. i mean yeah he's fat as **** but to me(and apparently alot of people) heavy is a character archetype that is slow, hard to maneuver in general, and struggle getting in. wario isnt any of those.
:4robinf:?
 

Terotrous

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Except the truth is that Bowser & his contemporaries actually do have high reward on hit and the majority of characters have to respect that from start-to-finish. Reality is we have a small part of the cast (as always) that is overperforming with better Risk:reward then the rest of their peers.
Eh, I'm not quite sure I buy it. Like sure, Bowser hits harder than others, but I'm not sure if it's enough to offset how much harder he has to work for those hits. He does have extra defense to partially make up for this, but his generally underwhelming tournament performance seems to suggest he needs a bit more.


I don't see how fun factors in.
At least a fairly significant portion of the FGC seems to like games with high reward on hit across the board. I'm not generally part of this group, but at the same time the reward on hit shouldn't be too low either. I think where characters like Yoshi, Falcon, Greninja, etc are is about right.


Its why I have qualms with Stamina mode. Stamina mode gives everyone the same health....yet characters dont have the same "effective" health in the base game.
I totally agree, and I think most people get this, that's why Stamina mode isn't played competitively. I do agree that tinkering with weight values is a balancing tool and have suggested using it multiple times in the past (in particular, I agree that Sheik's weight should be second-worst after puff). However, it's not the be all and end all of balance. Having a character who is a ludicrous glass cannon (kills and gets killed super early, which is what Diddy would be if we made him really light) is still kind of bad for balance, it makes matches involving them insanely volatile, and they still may have extremely strong matchups if there are characters who have trouble landing hits on them.
 

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Eh, I'm not quite sure I buy it. Like sure, Bowser hits harder than others, but I'm not sure if it's enough to offset how much harder he has to work for those hits. He does have extra defense to partially make up for this, but his generally underwhelming tournament performance seems to suggest he needs a bit more.
Bowser doesn't even need to work all that hard to get hits unless he's going in against a good projectile camper. He certainly doesn't have to work nearly as hard as Ganon, Charizard, or Dedede to land hits, and might even be a bit better than DK in this respect. His problems are mainly the fact that he rarely gets any sort of followup off of his hits and that he's complete juggle and gimp fodder once someone else gets in on him, not really his neutral game.
 

NairWizard

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Broken, no, but buffing Ganon's string damage creates a strange dynamic where, as characters like Sheik or Pikachu, my best option against Ganon is to just not go in at all (a dynamic that kind of already exists), and camp as long as I can. Light combo machines vs. heavy KO-power juggernauts is a really weird matchup dynamic to balance. I don't think that giving Ganon more rewarding strings is the answer. That just makes the dynamic worse/more polarizing. Instead, I'd rather give Ganon better grab range and a better jab, so that getting in is harder but still rewarding enough to be worth doing.
 
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Terotrous

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Broken, no, but it creates a strange dynamic where, as characters like Sheik or Pikachu, my best option against Ganon is to just not go in at all (a dynamic that kind of already exists), and camp as long as I can.
IMO this is deliberate design. If you have a powerful, slow guy, vs people who are competent at range, their objective should always be to keep him out and chip away at him where they can, while his objective is to get in and smash their face.

If you give Pikachu the tools to go toe to toe with Ganondorf at close range, and also beat him at long range, then clearly Pikachu is too strong and Ganon is too weak. Ganon ought to be nearly unparalleled at close range combat (except perhaps vs characters like Falcon who also only do close range, albeit with more mobility and lesser reward).
 
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Emblem Lord

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Only 12 characters have no flame choke follow ups, and only 2 of them actually create a problem (Rosa and Sheik, and you'd never use Flame Choke against Rosa to begin with). I do agree that Ganon should always get a guaranteed follow up off a missed tech, but having it be untechable would be crazy. People don't like when Diddy kills off a grab setup at 120%, having Ganon kill at 80% from Flame Choke > F-tilt would be broken.

Also, I saw a video of Marth using crescent slash, and I just don't see how Marth is that bad. It seems to me it's a move with almost no drawbacks that kills at 70% and is set up by half of his moveset. Unless we were talking about no-customs or I'm missing some huge weakness.
Ok, so people been saying Marth is bad since day one while people been hyping crescent slash for only about a week and some change soooooo, which explanation do you think applies?

Think they are talking about non customs Marth...

or..naaaaaaaaaaah??
 
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HeavyLobster

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IMO this is deliberate design. If you have a powerful, slow guy, vs people who are competent at range, their objective should always be to keep him out and chip away at him where they can, while his objective is to get in and smash their face.

If you give Pikachu the tools to go toe to toe with Ganondorf at close range, and also beat him at long range, then clearly Pikachu is too strong and Ganon is too weak. Ganon ought to be nearly unparalleled at close range combat (except perhaps vs characters like Falcon who also only do close range, albeit with more mobility and lesser reward).
Except right now Ganon's CQC isn't very good because of his slow jab and poor grab range, which are the things that need fixing instead of his already amazing reward. Ganon already hits plenty hard and is able to string those hits together pretty well. That's not the problem. Being outclassed by smaller characters once they get inside his ideal range is a more significant one. Some heavies like Charizard and Bowser are in fact good in close quarters, but Ganon isn't.
 

Terotrous

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Except right now Ganon's CQC isn't very good because of his slow jab and poor grab range, which are the things that need fixing instead of his already amazing reward.
Okay so fix that. I think we agree on the nature of the problem (Ganon needs to be better up close to compensate for how weak he is at range and how hard he has to work to get there), the specifics of how you want to fix it is less important (and there's definitely going to be multiple possible choices).
 
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Goesasu

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IMO this is deliberate design. If you have a powerful, slow guy, vs people who are competent at range, their objective should always be to keep him out and chip away at him where they can, while his objective is to get in and smash their face.

If you give Pikachu the tools to go toe to toe with Ganondorf at close range, and also beat him at long range, then clearly Pikachu is too strong and Ganon is too weak. Ganon ought to be nearly unparalleled at close range combat (except perhaps vs characters like Falcon who also only do close range, albeit with more mobility and lesser reward).
This seems relevant, watch from 5:00 onwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvU5RQ-nJog

The best pikachu player I have ever seen been beaten by ganondorf twice.

Say whatever you want, this game is balanced.
 

Terotrous

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This seems relevant, watch from 5:00 onwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvU5RQ-nJog

The best pikachu player I have ever seen been beaten by ganondorf twice.

Say whatever you want, this game is balanced.
This was posted here maybe 50 pages back or so. Like I said at the time, the Pikachu was committing to substandard recovery options, perhaps due to not knowing the matchup. You do not Skull bash towards the ledge against ganondorf unless you want a foot in your face. If he had used Quick Attack in those situations he likely would have lived (since that at least forces Ganon to guess where he's going to go).

Yes, Pon made some amazing reads, but I don't take this as evidence that Ganon wins (or even does well) in that matchup. Save for a few bad decisions by the Pikachu player he was getting wrecked.
 
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Emblem Lord

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This seems relevant, watch from 5:00 onwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvU5RQ-nJog

The best pikachu player I have ever seen been beaten by ganondorf twice.

Say whatever you want, this game is balanced.
Define that for me.

I don't think you know what you are saying.

In fact, I don't think most people do. Even competitive players.
 

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I've seen a Ganondorf main kill ZSS by doing five hard reads and the ZSS player was comboing Ganon all over the place. The games were pretty close though ZSS won in the end. My crewmates and I literally counted how many times Ganon hit ZSS per stock and we laughed about it.
 

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The problem with buffing Ganondorf is that he only has a few specific matchups that are really bad enough to justify a buff. Ganon gets a substantial range advantage in any matchup where he isn't forced to approach, and very few projectiles are actually safe enough to keep him out for long. It'd be hard to remedy his four worst matchups (Sheik, Rosa, ZSS, Villager) without giving him a ridiculous advantage in every other matchup. Matchups where Ganon already has the advantage would become complete curb stomps.

The only buffs I'd give Ganondorf would be an average grab range (a good grab range would be too much, Ganon gets so much reward off a grab), and make the end lag on a successful flame choke 2 frames shorter, which, AFAIK, would give him guaranteed follow ups on everyone for a missed tech.
 

Goesasu

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Define that for me.

I don't think you know what you are saying.

In fact, I don't think most people do. Even competitive players.
A game where the winner is (almost always) determined by skill level and not by the character chosen.
The different MU are the exception tweaking this a little and makes the game worth playing.
 

Terotrous

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I've seen a Ganondorf main kill ZSS by doing five hard reads and the ZSS player was comboing Ganon all over the place. The games were pretty close though ZSS won in the end. My crewmates and I literally counted how many times Ganon hit ZSS per stock and we laughed about it.
Sure, it can happen, but how often does it happen?

I'm pretty sure if the Pika player and Pon had played a 10 game set, it would have been 8-2 Pika, unless the Pika player got totally mind****ed after those two losses. Pon got some amazing reads in those 2 matches, but you just can't make those types of reads all the time, particularly if the Pika player adapts and starts making safer recoveries.
 
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NairWizard

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This seems relevant, watch from 5:00 onwards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvU5RQ-nJog

The best pikachu player I have ever seen been beaten by ganondorf twice.

Say whatever you want, this game is balanced.
He's definitely quick, great at edgeguarding, and great in advantage. I'm impressed by how fluidly he strings together his hits. But in disadvantage and neutral he made a few mistakes. In his first match, he airdodged too quickly when he was put in a bad situation, and instead of pressuring his opponent he just went in for the read most of the time (which worked; he's great at reads!, but Pikachu's neutral game is so potent vs. Ganon, it seems like a shame to not use it more liberally). In his second match, he seemed to be scared of Ganon (rightfully so after the first match) and made a few unnecessary spotdodge reads.

In general, judge players by how well they do in all the game states, not just by how much they go in when they're in an advantageous position. It's true that maximizing followup damage is important, but it's only one part of the game.
 

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A game where the winner is (almost always) determined by skill level and not by the character chosen.
The different MU are the exception tweaking this a little and makes the game worth playing.
By your definition, Smash 4 is not balanced. Really, no fighting game is (perfectly) balanced. Probably no asymmetric game is. Rather, in the FGC, we look at how fighters are relatively balanced, intrinsically basing this on the amount of viable options in high level play are available to any given MU. Ganon isn't high tier in default Smash because his viable options become limited against characters with more expansive options, like Pikachu and Shiek.

Coincidentally, this is why I'm all for customs, because they have the possibility of adding viable options at high levels of play for characters that are more limited in default.
 

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The problem with buffing Ganondorf is that he only has a few specific matchups that are really bad enough to justify a buff. Ganon gets a substantial range advantage in any matchup where he isn't forced to approach, and very few projectiles are actually safe enough to keep him out for long. It'd be hard to remedy his four worst matchups (Sheik, Rosa, ZSS, Villager) without giving him a ridiculous advantage in every other matchup. Matchups where Ganon already has the advantage would become complete curb stomps.

The only buffs I'd give Ganondorf would be an average grab range (a good grab range would be too much, Ganon gets so much reward off a grab), and make the end lag on a successful flame choke 2 frames shorter, which, AFAIK, would give him guaranteed follow ups on everyone for a missed tech.
Rosa is fine with customs, maybe not quite even, but totally playable. Not sure about Villager or Zero Suit, though I'd guess Dropkick forces Zero Suit to play more honestly with Paralyzer. Villager is still probably pretty bad with Timber Counter, though both Wizkick and Dropkick can go over it. Vs. Sheik he really needs the aforementioned Jab/Grab buffs with or without customs. Making Jab come out frame 5 or 6 isn't breaking him, nor is average grab range. A lot of Ganon's already favorable matchups want buffs as well, or otherwise punish him hard enough to stay relevant even if it's tough, so I'm not too worried about that.
 

ChronoPenguin

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IMO this is deliberate design. If you have a powerful, slow guy, vs people who are competent at range, their objective should always be to keep him out and chip away at him where they can, while his objective is to get in and smash their face.

If you give Pikachu the tools to go toe to toe with Ganondorf at close range, and also beat him at long range, then clearly Pikachu is too strong and Ganon is too weak. Ganon ought to be nearly unparalleled at close range combat (except perhaps vs characters like Falcon who also only do close range, albeit with more mobility and lesser reward).
I don't see this as the right example.
Pika and Ganon are literally at the opposite sides of the weight scale. If anything the real schicm is that Ganondorf is stuck with the warlock punch instead of a projectile for some godawful reason and that quick attack is absurd. Otherwise Pikachu has every justification to be equal and/or superior to Ganon given Pikachu dies like 25-40% earlier...
 

Nobie

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Characters should have at least some weaknesses. The fact that some effectively don't is the issue, rather than having to buff up the bottom to make up for that.
 
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