Character Competitive Impressions

[Bjurrse]

Man, its sickening with all the whine about timber counter. I respect zero and m2k, but srsly... The move is annoying, but it hardly makes villager better than screaming monkeyface.

 

[Gunla]

I'm not gonna lie.

I'm not sure M2K knows how to fight Villager, customs or not.

At this point, I still think nothing deserves a quickban. Customs are still new, and nothing appears to be terribly broken.

Timber Counter's tree is awful, and that's a big tradeoff.

 

[Antonykun]

I haven't heard a recent opinion from a Zelda main about how potent/viable they think she is.
What match ups do you think are good enough to be worth bringing her out in? What's the sore thumbs to her daily sacrifice by fire and brimstone rituals?

This won't be used for any insidious plots whatsoever

Everyone else is better than Fire Emblem Tier:
Fire Emblem Tier:

It's fate. Look into your heart, everyone should know it to be true.

Jiggly Emblem?
Also If There is anyone who is going to break TC it's Zero

 

[meleebrawler]

At this point, I still think nothing deserves a quickban. Customs are still new, and nothing appears to be terribly broken.

Timber Counter's tree is awful, and that's a big tradeoff.

The axe is weak too.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think the aerial version of DKs normal up b does ludicrous damage(i think i remember it doing like 36% at one point)

 

[Nabbitnator]

Its not really fair that they are pushing to ban other people's gameplay options. I mean while we are at it lets just ban diddy kongs up air. It may not be a special move but its a part of his moveset that's cheap and annoying but we have to deal with it. Timber counter is not broken, just annoying and there are ways to get passed it. That actually agitates me that its considered being banned because then a snow ball affect will happen with other custom moves to be banned.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Its not really fair that they are pushing to ban other people's gameplay options. I mean while we are at it lets just ban diddy kongs up air. It may not be a special move but its a part of his moveset that's cheap and annoying but we have to deal with it. Timber counter is not broken, just annoying and there are ways to get passed it. That actually agitates me that its considered being banned because then a snow ball affect will happen with other custom moves to be banned.

We Smogon now.

 

[Twin Rhapsody]

I'm not gonna lie.

I'm not sure M2K knows how to fight Villager, customs or not.

Him and ZeRo were saying Timber Counter was toxic and would make the game look bad.

*sigh* I've learned to take any grievances M2K has with a grain of salt, we all know how he acts when he loses to something that doesn't compute with his "robot" moniker (e.g. Ike recently, Ivysaur/Lucas in previous PM versions.) I swear if this move gets banned solely on these 2 whining about it + people's general lack of TRYING to figure ways around it then Smash 4's community is already worse than most other Smash/Fighting games; and that really saddens me. As for "toxic" I really don't see how Timber Counter is any worse than Rosalina. People seem to whine to no end about that character's playstyle. Get over it, not every character is/has to be an aggro, in-your-face, combos out the rear RTSD machine.

Perhaps my thoughts are a little salty, but that's because 1. I love this game 2. I originally came from a traditional FG background (SF3:3S, USF4, GG, and AH3+) until about 3 years ago, so I'm all for characters having options and 3. the communities I used to be a part of never whined as much as Smash 4's; we figured out what our characters could do to get around it and if it was truly a matchup that was beyond said character's ability (without 100% perfect play), we found a secondary that fit+helped the matchup.

 

[Smog Frog]

We Smogon now.

only difference is that smogon's trying to balance an inherently unbalanced meta

 

[HeavyLobster]

only difference is that smogon's trying to balance an inherently unbalanced meta

Yeah, but some of their bans come off as unnecessary and ridiculous. Plus there's a lot of nonsense and politics that inevitably comes into play once you open the Pandora's box of bans, even moreso with Smash because of the money on the line.

 

[Smog Frog]

Yeah, but some of their bans come off as unnecessary and ridiculous. Plus there's a lot of nonsense and politics that inevitably comes into play once you open the Pandora's box of bans, even moreso with Smash because of the money on the line.

maybe unnecessary and ridiculous to people not involved in their meta, but it makes sense to the "in" crowd and frankly, everyone that takes time to study the meta.

 

[Radical Larry]

Link's Meteor Bombs are quite the useful tool, even when not used the practical way. When Link has it in his hands, and he's being sent high by an opponent, he can have the bomb and either throw it down to meteor his opponent and setup a combo into D-Air, or you can keep it, fall back to the stage and tech. It provides a good option to keep you alive longer from vertical KOs.

I've also found that using Ripping Boomerang is amazing for setups into many attacks, despite its negligible damage scaling. Basically, it's a trapping, multi-hit attack that gives free setups and pressures shields. So if your opponent shields, you have many options, including a good grab setup. That or you can just troll the **** out of Villager and his balloons due to its multi-hit properties.

Big Bombs are amazing for traps and mindgames, and off-the-stage kills, but a bit impractical unless you want to gimp Ness' recovery move (as they overpower Ness' recovery when they explode).

I enjoy using Link's customs, which are fun to use.

 

[HeavyLobster]

maybe unnecessary and ridiculous to people not involved in their meta, but it makes sense to the "in" crowd and frankly, everyone that takes time to study the meta.

I spent the better part of 2 years playing simulators and know a bit about the meta, and I have a pretty decent idea of what Smogon's doing. The term "overcentralization" is a fairly open-ended term used to ban a lot of stuff not because it actually breaks the meta or is uncounterable, but because people simply dislike where it takes the meta. You can have a perfectly functional meta revolving mainly around 2 strategies and consisting of about 20 or so viable Pokemon(which was basically what the Gen 2 meta was in the days before widespread bans, and what the Gen 5 meta would've probably consisted of if they'd let the likes of Sand Veil Chomp, Excadrill, and Thundurus hang around) but most people don't want that. You could certainly argue that this is for the best,(and it probably is) but it does produce endless debate about what should and shouldn't be legal between the various camps. Also the Swagger ban is pure scrubbery, as it's a gimmick strategy that can usually be stopped by giving minimum attack IVs to your special attackers.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Confirming this.

SolidSense and ItsRainingGravy said everything that needs to be said about it, but it should really be emphasized just how powerful this move is in a footsie war. It shuts down so many usual tactics against Mario and the fact it can lead to follow-ups makes it even better.

Since there's like, literally no videos of Customs Mario because reasons, I'll go ahead and do a shameless plug. This is myself in a tournament using Scalding FLUDD for three sets in a row. This should give a decent idea on how Scalding FLUDD works (protip: mute the stream). I'm definitely not a high tier player but I can say with confidence this custom alone changes match-ups.

Good stuff. It seems to me that Scalding FLUDD works particularly well to stuff rushdown. But again, commentators and misinformation. Unless I'm horribly mistaken, a) you were not using a custom up special and b) even if you were they got the pros and cons all wrong. Less damage but more control lolno, it's no damage and greater distance.

Whyyy~

On M2K/Zero, I guess we should count ourselves lucky that EVO won't be setting their rules based on a few people complaining.

 

[Nabbitnator]

*sigh* I've learned to take any grievances M2K has with a grain of salt, we all know how he acts when he loses to something that doesn't compute with his "robot" moniker (e.g. Ike recently, Ivysaur/Lucas in previous PM versions.) I swear if this move gets banned solely on these 2 whining about it + people's general lack of TRYING to figure ways around it then Smash 4's community is already worse than most other Smash/Fighting games; and that really saddens me. As for "toxic" I really don't see how Timber Counter is any worse than Rosalina. People seem to whine to no end about that character's playstyle. Get over it, not every character is/has to be an aggro, in-your-face, combos out the rear RTSD machine.

Perhaps my thoughts are a little salty, but that's because 1. I love this game 2. I originally came from a traditional FG background (SF3:3S, USF4, GG, and AH3+) until about 3 years ago, so I'm all for characters having options and 3. the communities I used to be a part of never whined as much as Smash 4's; we figured out what our characters could do to get around it and if it was truly a matchup that was beyond said character's ability (without 100% perfect play), we found a secondary that fit+helped the matchup.

They should know there are characters who don't give a crap about timber counter and use them for the match up. Like Rosalina. Does she care? No. Still these moves shouldn't get banned because if you ban one or more then all have to go.

 

[Sir Bubbles]

Dr. Mario in Sm4sh has some pretty neat customs.

Gust cape gimps quicker than it should, small pills are excellent pressure (Actually gives him a decent neutral). and with the soaring tornado, he actually becomes rather competitive then what people usually think of him.

 

[Balgorxz]

anyone playing airbender kong knows how hot slaps works?
when I use it on the air sometimes it's knockback is huge and others really weak.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

i think the aerial version of DKs normal up b does ludicrous damage(i think i remember it doing like 36% at one point)

Can confirm. If all hits connect , it can hurt like mad. It also eats shields.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Really, it seems to me that DK is all about the shield breaks. Marcina has Shield Breaker but sometimes it feels like half of DK's moveset just eats shields alive.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

only difference is that smogon's trying to balance an inherently unbalanced meta

Smash is unbalanced. Smogons questionable motives aside

 

[HeroMystic]

Good stuff. It seems to me that Scalding FLUDD works particularly well to stuff rushdown. But again, commentators and misinformation. Unless I'm horribly mistaken, a) you were not using a custom up special and b) even if you were they got the pros and cons all wrong. Less damage but more control lolno, it's no damage and greater distance.

Correct, I was using default SJP (The list even said I was using 1312), they just did not know that you can control the angle SJP goes and it's not exclusive to Super Jump.

 

[Luco]

Really, it seems to me that DK is all about the shield breaks. Marcina has Shield Breaker but sometimes it feels like half of DK's moveset just eats shields alive.

DK breaks shields faster than you can ask whether KK is a reference to Koji Kondo. (No-one gets this reference and that's okay )

 

[NachoOfCheese]

People are sleeping on Customs Pac man and Megaman. I see loads of DKs (never thought I'd ever hear myself say that), Palutena, Sheik, Villager, etc. But Pac's shenanigans get infinitely more unpredictable with lazy and freaky freaky fruit + meteor trampoline. Megaman gets a useful down b and Shadow blade, which can hit confirm into down smash, up tilt, anything he wants really if it hits them on the way back.

 

[|RK|]

DK breaks shields faster than you can ask whether KK is a reference to Koji Kondo. (No-one gets this reference and that's okay )

The reference is familiar, actually. I just don't remember where it's from.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The reference is familiar, actually. I just don't remember where it's from.

K.K. Slider is the dog musician from Animal Crossing. And Koji Kondo is one of Nintendo's composers.

 

[|RK|]

K.K. Slider is the dog musician from Animal Crossing. And Koji Kondo is one of Nintendo's composers.

I know that. The specific joke was used elsewhere, I think. BitF? Maybe?

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Good stuff. It seems to me that Scalding FLUDD works particularly well to stuff rushdown.

To further explain Scalding FLUDD, I am going to compare it to the other two flamethrower moves.

The numbers represent how many seconds it takes in 1/4th speed for a move to activate/end. They are not the actual frame data of the moves.


Bowser's Default Flamethrower: Startup is 3, Endlag is 4
Charizard's Default Flamethrower: Startup is 3, Endlag is 3
Mario's Scalding FLUDD: Startup is 3, Endlag is 1


Right off the bat, we can see that Mario's Scalding FLUDD has roughly a 1/3rd of the ending lag that the other two Flamethrowers possess. And with no real drawbacks to the startup frames either. Additionally, Mario's FLUDD has roughly the same range as the other two flamethrowers (maybe sliiiiiightly less but to the point it doesn't matter).

The weaknesses that the Scalding FLUDD has in comparison to the other two flamethrowers are that it has much less initial range if uncharged. Roughly half compared to the full charge, but more like a third to quarter range if you want to get the maximum efficiency out of it while uncharged (essentially a character length away from you). You also can't really hold the move like you can with the other flamethrowers. And you have to charge the move in order to use it. However, the uncharged version of the move isn't all that bad, considering that it has less knockback compared to the fully charged version which allows for easier follow-ups (grab being the main one). Plus the move only takes about 2 seconds to fully charge, so there will be plenty of times you can charge it in the match. Heck, you can even start charging it again after hitting an opponent with another Scalding FLUDD blast because the move has actual knockback.


That's one of the main strengths of the move right there. Imagine if Bowser or Charizard's respective flamethrowers had knockback on the last hit whenever you let go of the flamethrower, instead of just causing hitstun. You know how amazing that would be for stage control for them, and forcing opponents to the ledge? I am pretty sure if Bowser and Charizard had that property to their respective flamethrowers, their competitive viability would go up. Additionally, on top of having knockback, Mario also has WAY more aerial mobility than either of the dragons. Charizard is at 43rd, Bowser is at 28th, and Mario is at 6-9th in terms of air speed rankings (I know there is more variables involved but still). This means that Mario has a plethora of flexibility when using Scalding FLUDD in the air compared to Bowser or Charizard. The only problem is that if you are charging the move in the air, you actually lose a lot of mobility.

Basically, this means that Mario can approach or retreat at his leisure with this move. It has the fastest charge time out of all of the FLUDDs, and it has the least amount of endlag when compared to the other two flamethrowers. This means that opponents are almost always going to be at the threat of being hit by a liquid wall of fire that is exceptionally hard to punish if Mario is retreating with it.


So yeah. It is probably the scariest flamethrower in the game IMO, and it is mostly phenomenal when it comes to neutralizing rushdown options. Particularly in the air. The only real problem with the move is that you are very vulnerable when someone jumps over you when using this move (smart play will avoid this though), and in some matchups you would rather want HP FLUDD for true gimping purposes and pushing opponents near the ledge. Other than that, it is the best FLUDD, and arguably the best flamethrower in the game. And the fact that it patches so many of Mario's weaknesses, as SolidSense and HeroMystic have said, makes it probably one of the best things Mario could have ever asked for in terms of getting a special move that synergizes so well with the rest of his moveset. That and Super Jump Punch which has always been very good.


If anyone wants more information on Mario's FLUDDs, I have two topics about them (though they are a bit outdated):

http://smashboards.com/threads/scalding-fludd-useless-perhaps-not.376560/

http://smashboards.com/threads/fludd-vs-high-pressure-fludd.376120/

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Charizard and Bowser dont want Knockback on flamethrower.
They want a ******** Windbox.

My sodium levels are rather high.

 

[Ffamran]

Charizard and Bowser dont want Knockback on flamethrower.
They want a ******** Windbox.

My sodium levels are rather high.

Well, since Charizard is part Flying...

So, is Mario's other custom FLUDD not that useful?

 

[HeroMystic]

So, is Mario's other custom FLUDD not that useful?

I find myself remembering the time when TKBreezy said "Customs is Super Windbox Bros."

Mario's HPFLUDD is pretty good since the windbox has more raw power behind it, and you can half-charge it to get the same effect as Normal FLUDD. The downside to it is you can't angle as well and of course you start getting that terrible push-back once you go past half-charge (Which we call Level 3 Charge). The push-back is negated through jumping.

So if you value better control, FLUDD is the best at that, but otherwise it's outclassed by HP-FLUDD in every other way.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well, since Charizard is part Flying...

So, is Mario's other custom FLUDD not that useful?

i would not say high power FLUDD is useless persay.

 

[Luco]

The reference is familiar, actually. I just don't remember where it's from.

I know that. The specific joke was used elsewhere, I think. BitF? Maybe?

Oh! Maybe I'm the one that doesn't get the joke, then.

It was made as a remark by the commentators in a match I was in, right as my shield got broken by DK. I didn't realise that maybe it was used somewhere else haha. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlwNYUYxwx4&t=17m54s

And I seem to recall that HP FLUDD was once the main downB custom and most Mario mains used it for some pretty good edge-guarding. I'm really looking forward to scalding FLUDD if it outclasses it.

 

[Hippieslayer]

People are sleeping on Customs Pac man and Megaman. I see loads of DKs (never thought I'd ever hear myself say that), Palutena, Sheik, Villager, etc. But Pac's shenanigans get infinitely more unpredictable with lazy and freaky freaky fruit + meteor trampoline. Megaman gets a useful down b and Shadow blade, which can hit confirm into down smash, up tilt, anything he wants really if it hits them on the way back.

I don't know much about Pacmans custom, nothing in fact, I just remember from watching Ninjalinks video that they seemed a pretty fat upgrade.

About Megaman, yeah definitely. Much better UP-B, deadly neutral B, and two different upgrades to side B to pick from, the latter don't seem super to me, but they are upgrades nonetheless, same with the down-b's.

 

[HeroMystic]

i would not say high power FLUDD is useless persay.

Definitely not useless at all, but MU specific because Scalding FLUDD is just that good. HP FLUDD is probably better vs Fox, Falco, and maybe DK. In general, it strongly enhances Mario's edgeguarding since the power behind the push can really gimp characters.

Edit: Good use of HP-FLUDD here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-uiLha6bPk#t=2m

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Definitely not useless at all, but MU specific because Scalding FLUDD is just that good. HP FLUDD is probably better vs Fox, Falco, and maybe DK. In general, it strongly enhances Mario's edgeguarding since the power behind the push can really gimp characters.

Edit: Good use of HP-FLUDD here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-uiLha6bPk#t=2m

i still firmly reamember marios b throw to hp flood killing at 60 percent.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

Charizard and Bowser dont want Knockback on flamethrower.
They want a ******** Windbox.

That goes without saying. Who doesn't want those?

So, is Mario's other custom FLUDD not that useful?

I find myself remembering the time when TKBreezy said "Customs is Super Windbox Bros."

Mario's HPFLUDD is pretty good since the windbox has more raw power behind it, and you can half-charge it to get the same effect as Normal FLUDD. The downside to it is you can't angle as well and of course you start getting that terrible push-back once you go past half-charge (Which we call Level 3 Charge). The push-back is negated through jumping.

So if you value better control, FLUDD is the best at that, but otherwise it's outclassed by HP-FLUDD in every other way.

HeroMystic did a fantastic job explaining everything.

HP FLUDD has certain matchups you want to use it over Scalding FLUDD. Such as stopping projectile-heavy characters from spamming near the ledge (Villager/DHD), easy gimps (Ness/Little Mac though Scalding FLUDD is still useful here too), and a few other situations. Also for Ness, he can absorb Scalding FLUDD with his PSI Barrier. Also, as stated by SolidSense, Scalding FLUDD can't knock Gordos back at Kind DeDeDe. So HP FLUDD might be more useful to abuse his slow horizontal aerial mobility and also because it has additional range.

If anything, default FLUDD is the worst of the three. It is the easiest to use overall, but it sacrifices the raw power the other two possess for this trait. Once you master the other two FLUDDs, default FLUDD really isn't worth it. And it is probably Mario's least desired custom move overall, even below Super Jump (which has synergy with Shocking Cape) and Fire Orb (which has potential in team matches).

It is by no means a bad move, just outclassed and really doesn't offer Mario much of a niche in comparison to the other two FLUDDs.

And I seem to recall that HP FLUDD was once the main downB custom and most Mario mains used it for some pretty good edge-guarding. I'm really looking forward to scalding FLUDD if it outclasses it.

I wouldn't really say outclassed, per-se. Rather, they fill different roles. It just so happens that Scalding FLUDD is able to cover more of Mario's weaknesses in more matchups as opposed to HP FLUDD. Granted, Scalding FLUDD is still better and I definitely prefer it over all of the other FLUDD options, but HP FLUDD definitely has its uses in certain matchups.

Even so, viewers are likely to be in for a treat once more Scalding FLUDD footage surfaces on the web, and (hopefully) shows up at EVO. And I hope you all enjoy seeing its uses and applications.

Definitely not useless at all, but MU specific because Scalding FLUDD is just that good. HP FLUDD is probably better vs Fox, Falco, and maybe DK. In general, it strongly enhances Mario's edgeguarding since the power behind the push can really gimp characters.

I agree. You don't want to be in DK's windbox range when he uses Kong Cyclone. Plus he can super armor through Scalding FLUDD with that move.

Kong Cyclone is just silly. Fortunately, windboxes can be shielded in Smash 4. This, of course, includes HP FLUDD and every other windbox in the game too.

 

[NairWizard]

I have a question for Megaman mains. How does the character get out of disadvantage? Seems like the absence of a n-air is really painful, and d-air is a bit slow. When you're in the air, and Diddy or someone with good vertical juggling is below you, what do you do? It seems like many of Megaman's otherwise advantaged matchups (such as Ganondorf) actually sift out as closer to even because of this rather big problem, but I do not use the character and am open to the idea that I'm missing something. Any insight?

 

[Yonder]

Dr. Mario in Sm4sh has some pretty neat customs.

Gust cape gimps quicker than it should, small pills are excellent pressure (Actually gives him a decent neutral). and with the soaring tornado, he actually becomes rather competitive then what people usually think of him.

I find Doc to be solid mid tier when he has soaring tornado, ol one two punch and fast pills. Gets a better approach, recovery, and kill power [moreso]. It really helps forget his terrible movement.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You can throw a Metal Blade down, that's caught me by surprise a few times online. That's all I've got though, I'm not a Mega Man main.

Edit: This in response to @ NairWizard .

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I have a question for Megaman mains. How does the character get out of disadvantage? Seems like the absence of a n-air is really painful, and d-air is a bit slow. When you're in the air, and Diddy or someone with good vertical juggling is below you, what do you do? It seems like many of Megaman's otherwise advantaged matchups (such as Ganondorf) actually sift out as closer to even because of this rather big problem, but I do not use the character and am open to the idea that I'm missing something. Any insight?

from my knowledge megaman disadvantage is pretty bad.