Character Competitive Impressions

[Ffamran]

@ Shaya Correction, it's
Fire Emblem Tier:

Speaking of our boy, Roy. What does Roy get out of customs? Different functioning gimmicks?

 

[Shaya]

Wow a good match up with Rosalina and Pikachu?

Alright folks, Zelda's been slept on for too long. That's a DIVISION BY ZERO factor better than all of Fire Emblem tier. And Swordsman won a tournament, by a guy who struggled breaking top 5 in previous events with Robin. And Ike doesn't like to compete because everyone likes him too much and he feels guilty punching and kicking people, something no true self-respecting Fire Emblem character could ever do, it'll ruin his image. If anyone can find a more infallible logic I'd be chuffed. It's set now, I'm glad we've come to an agreement.

And iono about Jiggs truly, but for such a light floaty balloon creature such as herself, being at the top would just be too easy; a true representation of how much strength she exudes to be able to sink to the bottom. I worry about her in the long term, I think my original argument of Rage + No edge hogging being a stab to her non-shown groin plus a long enough time period in which some representation should exist (like she legitimately has negative results) has her peering closer and closer to what would be "BOTTOM TIER" guaranteed, but we'll see.

Oh and D/E would be better seen as "Not strongly represented" (derivatives there of) rather than Low/Bottom Tier.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Yoshi is really really really popular but has absolutely no results. Japan's placing of him at third (or I would prefer to say 'second tier' because I feel as if there aren't proper orderings in each section) is starting to feel really suss when there just aren't any Japanese tournament videos I'm seeing of them succeeding.

Shi-gaming has the japanese videos, but mostly him losing until like 4 days ago I think some yoshidora wifi matches have Yoshi finally winning his matches against lucario and two Diddy's I believe.
As for results, I have a thread that has most results that people post or I namesearch Yoshi mains.

There's also some i just don't feel like adding like Polt getting 13th I think at paragon with Yoshi and Luigi.

and the bugs that still exist on him that the Japanese love to make Vines for that allow him to luma warp himself into KO moves, which is why I'm assuming they're hoping those get removed and him nerfed more because they don't like him

Umm
Those teleporting egg toss glitches has been removed for awhile now.

 

[19_]

Off-topic, but aMSa is expressing "interest" in Charizard over twitter. Oh boy...

Oh baby... I would like to see that.

Seriously Megaman does not give a flying flip about Timber Counter...way too many of Villager's bad MU's don't give flips about Timber Counter ._.
Wasn't I talking about this before?
Maybe I'll make a list of who doesn't care about TC

Funny now that Zero is playing villager on steam right now and saying how toxic he believes the move is. I feel that the villager apocalypse may just soon to be upon us.

And I look forward to it.

 

[Shaya]

There's some ledge drop glitches that I saw A vine for recently. Chances of me finding it are pretty low though.
Nothing to do with egg toss IIRC.

@ Ffamran
Okay, no.
I know you're usually pessimistic... BUT

DASH ATTACK.
DASH ATTACK.
DASH ATTACK.
Falco had -the best- dash attack in Brawl (also I may be wrong, but it's 5 frames start up in Brawl, not 4?)
It single handedly defined his real capabilities at top level during late Brawl. Power shield dash attack was BEAST. BEAST in every single way. Many attacks would buffer from dash attack confirms in a near guaranteed way at many percent. IT WAS SO SO SO SOOOO Good. Lasers into dash attack, jabs into dash attack, aerials into dash attack, dash attack the roll, dash attack the spot dodge, dash attack the shield well spaced too if you were really good (hitting shield towards the end of it's active frames was a frame trap), dash attack into dash attack. Dash attack cancelled up smash, dash attack gattling into up smash, dash attack cancelled grab being huge, dash attack cancelled pivot grab being huger still. OH LORD.
One of my tech skill repetitions in Brawl were Dash attacking one way with Falco into a buffered turn around dash attack the other way. This also combo'd at certain points. He also has a dash attack lock similar to ZSS but it wasn't highly publicized/used. Falco dash attack in Brawl is one of those moves that truly made me moist. Along with Marth's nair.


Having it's start up doubled is a huge blow and the slower dash attack has been one of the most noticeable things for me that adds so many holes to his game play. Thankfully there's based G&W with his 6 frame amazing dash attack to cover it a bit. I would almost say they switched predicaments. G&W's dtilt is now practically useless, but was a solid move in Brawl, while in Brawl Falco's dtilt was useless because you had dash attack.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I am ignorant. Sell me!

It gives Mario a 9% max damage disjointed aerial AND ground option that is relatively safe on block and on hit. At low percents, Scalding FLUDD combos into up-b and grab. At high percents, it combos into your KO moves. It's good for gimping (better than Mario's other FLUDDs), it's good for stuffing Luma, it's good as an anti-air, it's good as a landing option, it's good as an offstage "get away from me" anti-gimp maneuver, it's good as a replacement for default Fireball because it's less of a commitment, so you can take Fast Fireballs without worry (a buff to Mario). Just about the only thing that it can't do is reflect Dedede's Gordos, because each hit only does 1% damage, but it seriously fixes every problem that this character ever has. Range/getting walled out, KO power, landing/recovery... It's even a fantastic option for ledge pressure when your opponent is just trying to reset to the ledge repeatedly.

It shuts down Sonic's spindash, gimps Luigi, and contests Shulk's massive range.

Man, Scalding FLUDD is amazing. After playing with it in tourney, I regard it as a transformative move for Mario, similar to Super Speed with Palutena (only Super Speed is obviously way better and Mario would rather have that, of course).

Can you clarify this? Looking at the move, I see zero combo potential; what am I missing?

I can confirm everything SolidSense says.

To make it easier to link Scalding FLUDD into Up B or Grab, you can do the aerial version. Additionally, the uncharged version of Scalding FLUDD has less knockback than the fully charged one. So while you lose out on range, the hitstun on the uncharged version is still pretty much the same, which allows you to go for an Up B or Grab follow-up since your opponent will stay close to you. This is, of course, much easier to preform on larger targets. Though it can be done on mid-sized opponents too (haven't tried vs small characters).

I have advocated this move for a long time, back when most people either overlooked this move or considered it a niche when compared to the other FLUDD options. Now, however, almost every Mario main loves it. I, SolidSense, A2ZOMG, HeroMystic, and XeroXen in particular think Scalding FLUDD is easily one of Mario's best customs. If not the best (besides Super Jump Punch). It covers a lot of Mario's weaknesses, and gives him a surprisingly threatening tool that can quite literally shut down a lot of approaching options while giving Mario an approaching option as well. It does have weaknesses, but when used correctly, it is quite fantastic both offensively and defensively. It is even the fastest FLUDD to charge to boot.

With SolidSense's list of customs for Mario that the Mario board has agreed upon, 7 out of the 10 sets are currently running Scalding FLUDD, and for very good reasons.


Underestimate this move at your risk, as peeps might enjoy a nice, hot bath.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Still think people are sleeping on Samus with big bomb. yeah.... im seriously advocating this move be on over 6 of her sets

 

[Ffamran]

There's some ledge drop glitches that I saw A vine for recently. Chances of me finding it are pretty low though.
Nothing to do with egg toss IIRC.

@ Ffamran
Okay, no.
I know you're usually pessimistic... BUT

DASH ATTACK.
DASH ATTACK.
DASH ATTACK.
Falco had -the best- dash attack in Brawl (also I may be wrong, but it's 5 frames start up in Brawl, not 4?)
It single handedly defined his real capabilities at top level during late Brawl. Power shield dash attack was BEAST. BEAST in every single way. Many attacks would buffer from dash attack confirms in a near guaranteed way at many percent. IT WAS SO SO SO SOOOO Good. Lasers into dash attack, jabs into dash attack, aerials into dash attack, dash attack the roll, dash attack the spot dodge, dash attack the shield well spaced too if you were really good (hitting shield towards the end of it's active frames was a frame trap), dash attack into dash attack. Dash attack cancelled up smash, dash attack gattling into up smash, dash attack cancelled grab being huge, dash attack cancelled pivot grab being huger still. OH LORD.
One of my tech skill repetitions in Brawl were Dash attacking one way with Falco into a buffered turn around dash attack the other way. This also combo'd at certain points. He also has a dash attack lock similar to ZSS but it wasn't highly publicized/used. Falco dash attack in Brawl is one of those moves that truly made me moist. Along with Marth's nair.


Having it's start up doubled is a huge blow and the slower dash attack has been one of the most noticeable things for me that adds so many holes to his game play. Thankfully there's based G&W with his 6 frame amazing dash attack to cover it a bit. I would almost say they switched predicaments. G&W's dtilt is now practically useless, but was a solid move in Brawl, while in Brawl Falco's dtilt was useless because you had dash attack.

Fine, Dash Attack, Blaster, and sort of Dair. The thing is that, even with a frame 8 Dash Attack, if Falco could force approaches, it wouldn't be that bad. Also, it's just a little comparison. My more "in-depth" look at it was spread out in the Falco GD/Q&A and the Zelda Social.

Going to repost this from the Zelda Social just 'cause and to say one thing: Falco wasn't nerfed heavily at all. It was just one change as detailed below and the engine making him play differently which can't be helped such as you can't wavedash in Brawl or SSB4, edgehogging and the lack of acting out of Falco Phantasm made Falco's recovery different in Melee and Brawl, different moves, different damage output, different play styles, etc.. I'd even argue that Dair wasn't as bad as taking away Falco's ability to force approaches like a monster in Brawl or like a regular zoner in Melee.

I left this out from the repost here and I do mention his Dash Attack from previous games would have been better.

Optional: Some frame data analysis and comparison.

Spoiler

What changed throughout the game and what stayed the same or were similar throughout the games? Falco's Jab remained as a frame 2 Jab each game, but acted differently with Melee's being the fastest to transition from Jab 1 to Jab 2, but the Rapid Jab parts seem to be similar except for the lack of frame data on Brawl Falco's infinite which could be assumed as 6 frames in between each Rapid Jab. In other words, his Rapid Jab stuck close to each other in transition. Still, could you imagine SSB4 or even Brawl Falco with his Melee Jab frame data? SSB4 Fox's Jab cancel is insane, but Falco who gets even more out of grabs?

Dash Attack was only changed in SSB4 where Falco gained 5 frames of start up and a late hit. While it remains a powerful tool through each game, SSB4 with his previous frame 4 Dash Attack would be even stronger. Ftilt just gained 1 frame of start up in Brawl and remained as so in SSB4 and lost a frame of end hit frame. Nothing much to write about that. Utilt actually reflects his Melee Utilt instead of his Brawl Utilt which was faster by 1 frame in hit, but the second hit was the same. Once again, nothing much to say, especially since Utilt is now a double hit beginning with Brawl. Dtilt, surprisingly stays the same through each game.

Side Smash progressively gets slower each game, but not as much between Brawl and SSB4 and the end frames stay the same between Melee and Brawl while losing 1 frame in SSB4. That said, it's not that different, right? Well, I don't know the IASA frames or whatever where Falco can act out. Up Smash is similar between games as well, with it gaining 1 frame of start up from Melee and gaining 2 frames per game for end frames. It's similar, but with Up Smash being a double hit in SSB4. Down Smash gains a frame of start up and loses a frame of end frame from Melee to Brawl.

Nair is faster by 1 frame starting in Brawl. Between Brawl and SSB4, is the same except for losing a frame of end frame. Between Melee and Brawl, it became a multi-hit instead of a sex kick which stayed out 8 frames longer. Fair became slower from Brawl, being 6 frames slower in start up while ending at the same frames. As for Melee, it's out for less. Bair also stayed the same in hit frame, but SSB4's lasts the least ending at frame 11 while both Melee and Brawl ended at 19. Also, starting in Brawl, it gained a late hit. Uair lasts the same between all games with Melee being the fastest and a double hit. So, nothing much to say, except that basically between Melee and Brawl, Uair just became the second hit of Melee Uair. Dair... A frame 5 spike. Yeah, it had to change in my opinion as either a fast, but weak spike or a strong, but slow spike. From Melee and Brawl to SSB4, it gained 12 frames of start up. Between Melee and Brawl, it lost 3 frames of end hit frames and gained a late hit.

Falco's grabs are wonky and don't stay consistent. Falco's fastest Grab was in Brawl, Melee, then SSB4 while his fastest Dash Grab was SSB4, Brawl, then Melee, and Pivot Grab which I don't know if it exists in Melee, became slower in SSB4 by 3 frames also Pivot Grab.

And this is where I explain why I felt like Dair being a frame 16 isn't that bad since it's not a powerful, but fast spike anymore. If it was a weak, but fast spike or strong, but slow spike like it is now, for me it's fine.

No, it had to be butchered as either a fast, weak spike or a slow, strong spike. Could you imagine Ganondorf with a frame 10 Dair? Yeah, that's even more powerful than Falco's despite being 5 frames slower than his old Dair and 6 frames faster than his current Dair. Should I mention how if Ganondorf had a frame 10 Dair, it would be the same speed as his Ftilt, Dtilt, and Bair? In other words, he would have have a ludicrous Dair slower than his Jab by 2 frames, slower than his Nair by 3 frames, and slower than his Uair by 4 frames. Yeah, that's what Falco's Dair was in Melee and Brawl. It was insane. Even then, even then, it wouldn't have mattered that much since Falco would need to find a way to set it up without his godplayer lasers from Brawl or his regular zoning game in Melee. Hell, take away Falco's Blaster completely and he'll drop below bottom tier since now he doesn't have anything to interrupt people and U-throw and B-throw can't kill anymore. One change. Just one change did this to Falco. I'd say that if Falco had his Melee Blaster frame data or something similar to it, he'd be a definite mid to mid-high tier without a question unlike now where people think he's mid, low-mid, lower than low, or nonexistent.

Now, try it with Zelda. Let's change it so that Zelda's Din's Fire didn't put her into free fall, or that Phantom Slash could be stored, or that her Up Smash and Side Smash didn't have people fall out of them, or make it so that her Fair was more like Palutena's Fair meaning, or her Ftilt being faster, or make Zelda's movement faster. One change could make Zelda better to the point where the right change could make her go from low or mid tier to high to mid-high tier. Just one.

Take Diddy, let's make it so the hitbox is less, or make his limbs not stretch anymore, or make his Smashes and aerials slower. Take Sheik, now make it so her aerials have more landing lag. Take Toon Link and give him the Monado. One change.

To sum it up, Falco stayed as a solid character with his moves throughout the game, but something was missing in this game that made him feel complete in the others: his ability to zone quickly and effectively. Brawl's was ludicrous while in Melee, it was fine. I don't know why the developers didn't revert his Blaster game to Melee which wasn't as chaotic and wall-like in Brawl. His regular grab being slower than in Melee is weird, but if he had his Melee grab frames, it might not make a major difference since his grab game is phenomenal since he can combo out of any grab, especially U-throw and D-throw. Like I said, if he could Jab cancel like Fox, Falco would be a beast that would make Diddy's grab game look decent. All Falco would need to do is hit confirm and you're dead. Fair with its current capabilities would have been insane if it was a frame 6 aerial.

It's like I said where there were thing characters had that seemed iffy. If Falco's Dash Attack was frame 6, then whatever, but it's been doubled? Really? Even Fair as a frame 10 move wouldn't be that bad or Falco Phantasm having a full hitbox instead of half to 3/4's. Then there's Blaster seeming slower than Melee's which true to it's first letter, is the middle or best of both worlds where it's good without being broken and bad without being well, bad. Whatever, it's not the end of the world since Falco still remains a solid character. Hell, with Fast Fire Bird and the whole roll and slide thing, Falco could rush in and close distances instead of forcing approaches.

Also, how am I pessimistic? I don't trash on Falco or anyone and I don't hype them up like they're the best character in the game.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Fine, Dash Attack, Blaster, and sort of Dair. The thing is that, even with a frame 8 Dash Attack, if Falco could force approaches, it wouldn't be that bad. Also, it's just a little comparison. My more "in-depth" look at it was spread out in the Falco GD/Q&A and the Zelda Social.



I left this out from the repost here and I do mention his Dash Attack from previous games would have been better.


And this is where I explain why I felt like Dair being a frame 16 isn't that bad since it's not a powerful, but fast spike anymore. If it was a weak, but fast spike or strong, but slow spike like it is now, for me it's fine.


To sum it up, Falco stayed as a solid character with his moves throughout the game, but something was missing in this game that made him feel complete in the others: his ability to zone quickly and effectively. Brawl's was ludicrous while in Melee, it was fine. I don't know why the developers didn't revert his Blaster game to Melee which wasn't as chaotic and wall-like in Brawl. His regular grab being slower than in Melee is weird, but if he had his Melee grab frames, it might not make a major difference since his grab game is phenomenal since he can combo out of any grab, especially U-throw and D-throw. Like I said, if he could Jab cancel like Fox, Falco would be a beast that would make Diddy's grab game look decent. All Falco would need to do is hit confirm and you're dead. Fair with its current capabilities would have been insane if it was a frame 6 aerial.

It's like I said where there were thing characters had that seemed iffy. If Falco's Dash Attack was frame 6, then whatever, but it's been doubled? Really? Even Fair as a frame 10 move wouldn't be that bad or Falco Phantasm having a full hitbox instead of half to 3/4's. Then there's Blaster seeming slower than Melee's which true to it's first letter, is the middle or best of both worlds where it's good without being broken and bad without being well, bad. Whatever, it's not the end of the world since Falco still remains a solid character. Hell, with Fast Fire Bird and the whole roll and slide thing, Falco could rush in and close distances instead of forcing approaches.

Also, how am I pessimistic? I don't trash on Falco or anyone and I don't hype them up like they're the best character in the game.

you kinda are a pessimist, though im sure its more dry humor than anything.

but hey at least now with fast fire bird falco can adopt a whole new play style while feeling complete!

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I always found it weird that people whined about FLUDD doing no damage and then when it finally could they completely ignored it.

I really need more offline/non-4Glory Samus experience, cause man when this character clicks it feels so GOOD. Stringing Uairs into screw attack is delicious. Nair is awkward as frick but when you get used to it it actually ends up being pretty handy(still kinda wish she had her old one sometimes though). Really fun character that I've been playing a lot recently.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

I always found it weird that people whined about FLUDD doing no damage and then when it finally could they completely ignored it.

I practically jumped to that move the moment I first tested it.

I do not regret my choice whatsoever.

 

[Ffamran]

I always found it weird that people whined about FLUDD doing no damage and then when it finally could they completely ignored it.

I really need more offline/non-4Glory Samus experience, cause man when this character clicks it feels so GOOD. Stringing Uairs into screw attack is delicious. Nair is awkward as frick but when you get used to it it actually ends up being pretty handy(still kinda wish she had her old one sometimes though). Really fun character that I've been playing a lot recently.

Fight the person above you if you have a 3DS or go to the Samus boards and request a match. It's probably going to be online, though, unless you meet someone who lives near you.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I always found it weird that people whined about FLUDD doing no damage and then when it finally could they completely ignored it.

I really need more offline/non-4Glory Samus experience, cause man when this character clicks it feels so GOOD. Stringing Uairs into screw attack is delicious. Nair is awkward as frick but when you get used to it it actually ends up being pretty handy(still kinda wish she had her old one sometimes though). Really fun character that I've been playing a lot recently.

Trust me man unlock apex screw attack relentless missles and big bomb and just watch as you become insufferable to approach.

 

[thehard]

Well, ZeRo and M2K apparently want Timber Counter banned at MVG events so I might end up doing that spotlight first

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Well, ZeRo and M2K apparently want Timber Counter banned at MVG events so I might end up doing that spotlight first

zero wants many things banned.

 

[Shaya]

And for good reasons too.

Why do we want three or four more demons when we can just keep to one and a half?

 

[Jaxas]

Well, ZeRo and M2K apparently want Timber Counter banned at MVG events so I might end up doing that spotlight first

Ugh, for real? And why the focus on Timber Counter over the other super-good ones? I mean sure it's annoying, but...

 

[thehard]

inb4 they both switch mains to Villager

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Well, ZeRo and M2K apparently want Timber Counter banned at MVG events so I might end up doing that spotlight first

Make sure to point at tonight's Xanadu, where a Villager landed the tree hits (both growing and falling) with Timber Counter at 100%+ and they all failed to kill. The tradeoffs are real.

The VOD but I can't remember the timestamp. It's fairly early in though IIRC.

And speaking of Xanadu I greatly look forward to the day when commentators in general stop spreading misinformation. No, Omega Palutena's Temple does not have a lower ceiling, at least not to any appreciable degree. Shifting Shuriken does not charge just as long as default. And those are admittedly the only two that I can remember but ugh. </rant>

Also there was a Meta Knight vs. Airbender DK match where all 3 matches were on Battlefield. Uh, WTF?

 

[Road Death Wheel]

And for good reasons too.

Why do we want three or four more demons when we can just keep to one and a half?

For the most part more equal better for me. since it at least hopfully gives more characters better mu's against top tiers. Like if villager becomes top mega man would definitly get more time to shine ya know? thouse give a acutal good reason to use the character.

 

[thehard]

Yeah props to @DunnoBro with the Custom Commentary, teach the others a thing or two!

 

[Shaya]

Someone's likely to not respect the tree the same way they do default ones. People are going to be trying to avoid the trip sappling and the counter-tree hits (i.e. jump or roll or something) in ways which would be terrible/never happen with the other specials. Can you tell me that Villager would've gotten the same growing/falling tree hits when the opponent knows they don't have to worry about it the same way on top of this?

 

[Djent]

The Zero Flowchart:
OP & Zero uses it -> "it's not even the best"
OP & Zero doesn't -> "ban it!" -> Zero uses it

 

[FullMoon]

And speaking of Xanadu I greatly look forward to the day when commentators in general stop spreading misinformation. No, Omega Palutena's Temple does not have a lower ceiling, at least not to any appreciable degree. Shifting Shuriken does not charge just as long as default. And those are admittedly the only two that I can remember but ugh. </rant>

... How can someone even make that mistake about Shifting Shuriken after seeing it being used?

And huh, didn't know there was a Greninja at Xanadu.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Kinda like how Zero and M2k saying Diddy isn't all that good and Sheik is better.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I can see how Timber Counter can be polarizing against certain characters, but can't someone like Sheik still screw up Villager pretty badly? Wouldn't her needles still screw up his camp game and her fast attacks wreck him once he's forced to approach? Kong Cyclone has its counters as well. I guess you could argue that these moves could be polarizing and unhealthy, but they're completely counterable. There's nothing I've seen that's broken in the sense that there's no way to win other than choosing the same character. The scariest things in the customs-on meta are still Diddy and Sheik, and they at least have their 50:50 MUs to deal with, so there aren't any Brawl MKs running around.

 

[NairWizard]

There is some part of me that wants to switch mains to Villager + DK + Rosalina and put the salt industry out of business.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

There is some part of me that wants to switch mains to Villager + DK + Rosalina and put the salt industry out of business.

It's called being a sadist.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well, ZeRo and M2K apparently want Timber Counter banned at MVG events so I might end up doing that spotlight first

*sigh * really? What's up with that? No tournaments no major calling for bans? They need to stop it I get that they're top players but that's just ridiculous.

 

[Pyr]

*sigh * really? What's up with that? No tournaments no major calling for bans? They need to stop it I get that they're top players but that's just ridiculous.

Surprisingly, top players are humans and can make silly mistakes like humans.

 

[thehard]

Watching the Villager gameplay now... the first thing I see is M2K run directly into a planted trip sapling...

The solution here is not taking Villager to FD as you would Kong Cyclone with BF.

Also something REALLY important: He's getting walled out by Lloids but the best counter to those is running into them while they're being launched because they're intangible at that point.

 

[Luco]

"Airbender DK" is my new favourite term!

By the way, what, according to the game, were the trade-offs meant to be for choosing Kong Cyclone instead of the original? Recovery? Power?

 

[thehard]

Apparently Palutena's bair can pop the Extreme Balloons and she takes no explosive damage

 

[warionumbah2]

Did MK really beat Airbender Kong?? pfft ahaha.

 

[RedCap-BlueSpikes]

Apparently Palutena's bair can pop the Extreme Balloons and she takes no explosive damage

Of course. Her B-air can do janky stuff like that because it's completely invincible f3-11.

 

[HeroMystic]

I have advocated this move for a long time, back when most people either overlooked this move or considered it a niche when compared to the other FLUDD options. Now, however, almost every Mario main loves it. I, SolidSense, A2ZOMG, HeroMystic, and XeroXen in particular think Scalding FLUDD is easily one of Mario's best customs.

Confirming this.

SolidSense and ItsRainingGravy said everything that needs to be said about it, but it should really be emphasized just how powerful this move is in a footsie war. It shuts down so many usual tactics against Mario and the fact it can lead to follow-ups makes it even better.

Since there's like, literally no videos of Customs Mario because reasons, I'll go ahead and do a shameless plug. This is myself in a tournament using Scalding FLUDD for three sets in a row. This should give a decent idea on how Scalding FLUDD works (protip: mute the stream). I'm definitely not a high tier player but I can say with confidence this custom alone changes match-ups.

 

[thehard]

I'm not gonna lie.

I'm not sure M2K knows how to fight Villager, customs or not.

Him and ZeRo were saying Timber Counter was toxic and would make the game look bad.

 

[Macchiato]

Personally, I don't think Zelda is as bad as she's made out to be. I'd go with top of bottom tier, so above Bowser on your tier list.

Zelda can actually be used for a variety of matchups. She really only struggles against rushdowns (Sheik, Diddy) or very defensive / projectile oriented characters that can wall her out or outspace her (Link, Mega Man, Marth.) She doesn't have too much of a problem against characters with the same range as her that aren't rushdowns. I.e. Mario isn't too bad of a matchup

Matchups where you should use Zelda over another character? Not too many. However, a few other Zeldas and myself concluded that Zelda actually has an advantage against Rosalina. You can see the analysis starting here.

Btw, I love Jigglypuff in the FE tier :^)

@ Macchiato Have anything you want to say about Zelda?

No but I do want to talk about Lucina and Marth. They really aren't that bad. I think Marth is mid at worst. Why because he has solid, range, kill power and mobility. He has the tools to be a great character. Yes he was nerfed but he's still good. Lucina, well that's another case. She has the same tools as Marth but with less kill power and less safe moves. Her kill power is still great, and id say better than average. Her dancing Blade, Usmash, and hurtbox are better but she's still worse. She definitely isn't bottom tier, most likely low.

Her Match Ups are pretty good she beats characters that she ranges like and more. I'd say that them two's nerfs are exaggerated. They're not bad.

 

[Quickhero]

@ Macchiato Okay post about Lucina (how did she get nerfed when this is her first game ) but there is one problem with your post.

You took the Fire Emblem tier seriously.

 

[Macchiato]

@ Macchiato Okay post about Lucina (how did she get nerfed when this is her first game ) but there is one problem with your post.

You took the Fire Emblem tier seriously.

Well Marth was nerfed so technically she was too

Also it wasn't a joke? oh. Good bye