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Character Competitive Impressions

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HeroMystic

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i still firmly reamember marios b throw to hp flood killing at 60 percent.
I personally haven't seen this, but that sounds pretty cool. Problem is HP-FLUDD can be air-dodged on reaction (which is the same reason why Default FLUDD has issues with edgeguarding). This should only really happen if Mario catches you performing a move for whatever reason.
 

Road Death Wheel

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I personally haven't seen this, but that sounds pretty cool. Problem is HP-FLUDD can be air-dodged on reaction (which is the same reason why Default FLUDD has issues with edgeguarding). This should only really happen if Mario catches you performing a move for whatever reason.
its was really old though. like 3ds days old but i still remember it. if you want the link i could show you.
 

AlMoStLeGeNdArY

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I'm not gonna lie.

I'm not sure M2K knows how to fight Villager, customs or not.

Him and ZeRo were saying Timber Counter was toxic and would make the game look bad.
What makes the game look bad was m2k vs zero at Apex. That makes the game look ridiculously bad.
 

HeavyLobster

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People are sleeping on Customs Pac man and Megaman. I see loads of DKs (never thought I'd ever hear myself say that), Palutena, Sheik, Villager, etc. But Pac's shenanigans get infinitely more unpredictable with lazy and freaky freaky fruit + meteor trampoline. Megaman gets a useful down b and Shadow blade, which can hit confirm into down smash, up tilt, anything he wants really if it hits them on the way back.
Metal Blade I think is slightly better overall, but Shadow Blade is pretty close and lets you play Megaman very differently, which might make him better suited for more aggressive playstyles. All of Megaman's down b's are decent and have their uses. Hyper Bomb is really interesting but hard to use, and I'm not sure whether it's a gimmick or has some legit use. All of Megaman's Side b's are usable, but Danger Wrap is probably the best. Rush generally seems like the best recovery overall. Tornado Hold has some neat uses and can serve as an anti-juggle tool with the hitbox covering below you, but sacrifices some recovery. Beat leaves you more vulnerable than the other two options, and is only good for really deep edgeguarding, but is generally not worth it.
I have a question for Megaman mains. How does the character get out of disadvantage? Seems like the absence of a n-air is really painful, and d-air is a bit slow. When you're in the air, and Diddy or someone with good vertical juggling is below you, what do you do? It seems like many of Megaman's otherwise advantaged matchups (such as Ganondorf) actually sift out as closer to even because of this rather big problem, but I do not use the character and am open to the idea that I'm missing something. Any insight?
Not a Megaman main now, though I did experiment with him quite a bit during the 3DS era. Mainly I use his aerial mobility and mixups off of Rush Coil to land. Rush Coil and all of his other options let you double jump after using them, so they can be used to reset the situation and give you space. You can also use Down B after a Rush Coil to give yourself a hitbox, especially while dodging, to get out of trouble, though both of the tricks I mentioned can backfire if you get knocked offstage.(windboxes especially can mess with you) Alternatively, rock Tornado Hold as I mentioned above and let the hitbox suck up the enemy and turn the tables on them. Tornado Hold is probably the best option against characters like Diddy whose juggles are scarier than his edgeguarding.
 

Nobie

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I have a question for Megaman mains. How does the character get out of disadvantage? Seems like the absence of a n-air is really painful, and d-air is a bit slow. When you're in the air, and Diddy or someone with good vertical juggling is below you, what do you do? It seems like many of Megaman's otherwise advantaged matchups (such as Ganondorf) actually sift out as closer to even because of this rather big problem, but I do not use the character and am open to the idea that I'm missing something. Any insight?
One thing to keep in mind is that Mega Man is one of the hardest characters to kill off the top of the screen in all of Smash 4. To give you an idea, he is very slightly more durable than Ganondorf in this respect, and he's of course a much smaller target than Ganondorf too. His quick fall speed means he's vulnerable to low-mid percent juggles, but he also has enough endurance that he can weather those early combos fairly well.

Once Mega Man isn't getting 20% taken out of him for free though, that's where he can use his high aerial mobility to his advantage. While there are a handful of characters who have higher top speed than Mega Man, he is probably top 3 in the game in terms of juking in and out while airborne. Because of this, while his nair doesn't function like a typical nair, just by fading back and shooting you can stop a lot of approaches, while his other aerials can keep the opponent honest. Fade-away Flame Sword works somewhat similarly, Hard Knuckle while not always the best thing to do is useful for mixing it up, and Slash Claw is super fast and dangerous, and you can probably pull it out faster than whatever the opponent is doing. Mostly though, you're using nair to just stop the opponent for a brief moment so you can reset back to neutral.

Rush Coil is useful for mixing things up too, and you can neutralize the landing lag on it by throwing out an attack either high in the air or as you land. Doing the latter will mean that the landing lag corresponds to which ever move you used. So, for example, let's say you're getting chased down and you're trying to land after a Rush Coil while facing away from the opponent. As you're landing throw a Metal Blade behind your back. They can counter this too, of course, but it's something they'll have to take into account. Speaking of Metal Blade, throwing it down or diagonally down can help, but it's kind of weak and only useful when mixed in sparingly.
 

19_

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Neoleo21

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Uhhh... okay.

I can't believe I'm saying this but that looks legitimately broken.

Huh.

I actually think we found a broken move guys. :teeth:
Banning a custom isn't going to stop its use, the hitbox according to will exists on even the default.
 

Big O

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Not sure what all the fuss is about, but that is DK's default Neutral B and it has been like that since Brawl (possibly Melee?). That's like 2008 technology lol. Also his customs don't have that back hit sweepspot.
 
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Shaya

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Did you guys just try to make out that a 9-wind punch on the reverse hitbox, something that's incredibly hard to set up, is... game breaking?

100% sure it was in Brawl. I've seen that thing kill a Snake at like 40%.
A total of one time.
 
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Road Death Wheel

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im kinda surprised will did not know about it to be honest. Like i did not know about it, but will did not know about it is mind boggling. He was a big dk in brawl afterall.
 

PUK

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But the fact that DK can now place himself on a platform with the opponent on his back put this gimmick on the rank of great kill option. From a move which can't be landed it's now a threat.
 

Judo777

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A player in our state named S2 who was a DK main in Brawl, said that something like this existed in Brawl. Everyone knew 9 wind was crazy strong and so this is slightly old news for 10 wind. But he also claimed that DK has a weird shoulder hitbox in Brawl that he wasn't able to replicate, but apparently it killed a Lucario on Jungle Japes at like 39% from a 3 wind. Think he still has the replay from it.
 

webbedspace

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We really need to start calling them "sweeps" or "swings" instead of "winds" now that there literally is a "wind punch" custom move.
 

TTTTTsd

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DKWill has a video of it hitting in the air, and I'm wondering if this is new? All the data I'm looking up for the Shoulder hitbox on the wind up punch in Brawl comes off as it being noticeably weaker than the grounded variant.

Someone could (and SHOULD for that matter) correct me, but there's no info as to if this worked in the air like it did in DKWill's video. Also important to note is that it has a lot more uses here in catching airdodges/throwing people into it I suppose. Just food for thought and fun DK stuff.
 

Nobie

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I was wondering something. If for whatever reason a Mr. Game & Watch won a major tournament, and let's say at least 50% of his matches involved hitting a 9 at critical moments, would people be more happy about his success, or upset that the champion won through "luck?" Would they be more upset or less upset than seeing a Lucario player win through aura comebacks?
 
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PUK

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It would be like a challenger winning a boxe match because the champion trips. Really funny but not really competitive.
 

TTTTTsd

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It would be sort of silly but I think going for 9s and hitting a lot of them is a very very big risk, and if you netted all your wins with it, the crowd would be too busy popping off to care, just cause of the circumstances and crazy situations required.

It'd be a spectacle and fun to see on a regional, but prolly not a national.
 

Terotrous

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Eh, Will claims that you need to "read an air dodge" for it to kill after Cargo Upthrow. Wouldn't the logical response then be just to never airdodge but instead double jump after the throw?

Airdodging after a throw that sends you upwards is almost always the worst response possible.
 

TTTTTsd

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Eh, Will claims that you need to "read an air dodge" for it to kill after Cargo Upthrow. Wouldn't the logical response then be just to never airdodge but instead double jump after the throw?

Airdodging after a throw that sends you upwards is almost always the worst response possible.
The power of conditioning can partially negate this I suppose. You generally don't want to DJ and put yourself above DK in a lot of instances (IMO, most of the cast doesn't, keep in mind there are exceptions) so if he does that and usually Uairs, people might reactively airdodge and think he messed up timing, etc.

It's not foolproof nor will it work all the time but miracles can happen if you make clutch decisions like that.
 

Terotrous

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The power of conditioning can partially negate this I suppose. You generally don't want to DJ and put yourself above DK in a lot of instances (IMO, most of the cast doesn't, keep in mind there are exceptions) so if he does that and usually Uairs, people might reactively airdodge and think he messed up timing, etc.

It's not foolproof nor will it work all the time but miracles can happen if you make clutch decisions like that.
I dunno, I find that airdodging after a throw that sends you vertically is almost always the worst choice. If they read the dodge, they can still hit you with whatever follow-up might have chased your double jump, but they can also usually hit you with absolutely any move of their choice, including some that may kill far earlier.

At the very least, double jump first, then airdodge.
 

S_B

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Not to partially change the subject, but I've now looked at general tournament performance of characters and tier lists vs. some of the design changes they implemented in SSB4 vs. previous games.

I feel it can be said that SSB4 is, without question, the first in the series where they TRIED to give heavy characters more of a chance of not being bottom-tier fodder. For starters, they've beefed up the knockback and damage on their attacks significantly.

Beyond that, they clearly tried with concepts like "tough guy" to further make a heavy character live up to the title of being a "tank" (something I've seen asked for since melee). Rage also tends to weigh into a heavy's favor.

But ultimately, as the tier lists show, it didn't pan out. I realize the meta is still young, but out of all the "heavies", only Wario and ROB are climbing out of the bottom tiers (and I'm not sure they classify as heavies, as they lack the massive hurtboxes of DK, Bowser and D3) and the S/A-ranks are once again dominated by light, fast characters.

I feel like the only way heavies will ever really have a shot at the limelight is if they take tough guy a step further and give it to certain attacks on all heavy characters. For example, a smash attack from DK would not be interrupted by any attack that does less than 5% damage.

So long as heavies are combo fodder, much of the advantage of BEING heavy is negated and actually works against them. Less distance launched also results in easier followups, especially from aforementioned light, quick characters.

What are others' thoughts on this? Is there a better way to balance heavies without ruining the casual game?
 

Quickhero

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@ S_B S_B I'm almost 100% sure you didn't include custom moves, so I can safely say your answer is the custom meta.

Ike (already above average without customs), (especially) DK, Ganondorf, Bowser, and even Charizard and Samus all get significantly buffed with access to customs. That basically covers every heavy weight except for King Dedede, unless there's something I'm missing. :(
 
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Luco

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Not to partially change the subject, but I've now looked at general tournament performance of characters and tier lists vs. some of the design changes they implemented in SSB4 vs. previous games.

I feel it can be said that SSB4 is, without question, the first in the series where they TRIED to give heavy characters more of a chance of not being bottom-tier fodder. For starters, they've beefed up the knockback and damage on their attacks significantly.

Beyond that, they clearly tried with concepts like "tough guy" to further make a heavy character live up to the title of being a "tank" (something I've seen asked for since melee). Rage also tends to weigh into a heavy's favor.

But ultimately, as the tier lists show, it didn't pan out. I realize the meta is still young, but out of all the "heavies", only Wario and ROB are climbing out of the bottom tiers (and I'm not sure they classify as heavies, as they lack the massive hurtboxes of DK, Bowser and D3) and the S/A-ranks are once again dominated by light, fast characters.

I feel like the only way heavies will ever really have a shot at the limelight is if they take tough guy a step further and give it to certain attacks on all heavy characters. For example, a smash attack from DK would not be interrupted by any attack that does less than 5% damage.

So long as heavies are combo fodder, much of the advantage of BEING heavy is negated and actually works against them. Less distance launched also results in easier followups, especially from aforementioned light, quick characters.

What are others' thoughts on this? Is there a better way to balance heavies without ruining the casual game?
I agree that heavies often get the short end of the stick, but I think DK especially, along with Bowser, Ike and Wario are still not bottom tier. Snake in Brawl wasn't bottom tier either, same goes for Wario in that game. There are ways to make heavies quite good, but it's hard and often requires enough other advantages in their favour.
 
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Smog Frog

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i wouldnt argue wario is a heavy. i mean yeah he's fat as **** but to me(and apparently alot of people) heavy is a character archetype that is slow, hard to maneuver in general, and struggle getting in. wario isnt any of those.
 

PUK

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But ultimately, as the tier lists show, it didn't pan out. I realize the meta is still young, but out of all the "heavies", only Wario and ROB are climbing out of the bottom tiers (and I'm not sure they classify as heavies, as they lack the massive hurtboxes of DK, Bowser and D3) and the S/A-ranks are once again dominated by light, fast characters.
ROB has a pretty massive hurtbox, it's not hard to land sweetspot. But heavy needs a reduce hitstun at least to climb to the high tier. AND diddy would be the best even with that.
 

Terotrous

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The real problem with the heavies is that in Smash, mobility and power are directly correlated due to how combos work. Fast characters tend to have the most powerful combos since they can follow-up the easiest, and their speed also generally makes it easiest for them to land kill moves.

I've said this before, but I think the main thing that heavies need to be viable is that their reward on hit needs to be the highest in the cast.


For example, suppose you couldn't tech Ganondorf Flame Choke, and that DTilt now comboed into Fair consistently. This character goes from being maybe one of the worst to being top tier or close. If he gets in, you get the hell out of there or get annihilated, which is how heavies should work. This sounds insane simply because we're so used to heavies behind bad, but no one bats an eye at the fast characters having godlike combos into kill moves like this.
 
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Smog Frog

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except ganon already has silly strings on top of his power(not guaranteed combos but silly strings)
 

Terotrous

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except ganon already has silly strings on top of his power(not guaranteed combos but silly strings)
He has some but they're not silly enough. They should be the silliest in the game, since he has to work the hardest to land them. That's just basic fighting game design. If a character has to work hard to get an opening, when they do it should be devastating. By comparison, highly mobile characters should get much lesser reward on hit.


In fact, I would suggest that when balancing a game, you should start off by making the heavy characters by far the best in the game, then gradually buff everyone else until they can compete with them. This likely works better than making the other characters godlike and then trying to find some way for heavies to get around that.
 
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PUK

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Zelda has the highest reward of the game for a lot of her moves and is not combo food, she has ways to approach a camping character and her recovery is godtier. She's not high tier, not even mid tier.
The thing is even with the highest reward, bad frame data and bad mobility in a fighting game is a flaw that is diificult to overcome
 
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