Character Competitive Impressions

[Road Death Wheel]

So i guess dk's custom will have to be banned.

 

[thehard]

Denti just dropped some solid knowledge on Kong Cyclone to the stream which amounted to "it's not a big deal". Awesome.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Denti just dropped some good knowledge on Kong Cyclone to the stream which amounted to "it's not a big deal". Awesome.

I was only there for the salt man. i was just sad for no samus.

 

[Balgorxz]

Denti is so wise explaining how DK upb works and how to deal with it and the tournament in general was awesome,
"Bwett - Customs are the future"

 

[Yokoblue]

Tourney Locator impression:
Dk Up B will create mountains of salts
Palutena with customs seems really good and already seem to be high tier without even much pratice
TL Shortfused bomb arent good imo... They would need 1 sec more cooldown for them to be real good (TL is one of my secondary and I tested them... I don't know how you can play a good range game with them... you get hit or you get forced to throw them too much )
Rosaluma is totally different and she seems better... I might pick her back up in a custom meta.

 

[Kofu]

So i guess dk's custom will have to be banned.

What's happening on the stream that's bringing this mindset up?

Most characters will only want to use one or two customs at a time IMO. But if you're at a custom tournament you might as well take advantage of the increased options.

 

[Thinkaman]

So i guess will's custom dk have to be banned.

I rearranged the words to fix it!

 

[thehard]

What's happening on the stream that's bringing this mindset up?

Most characters will only want to use one or two customs at a time IMO. But if you're at a custom tournament you might as well take advantage of the increased options.

It was one salty commentator who didn't even know customs existed before this tournament. All of chat called him out. Even D1 made fun of the desire to ban customs. He LOVED the tournament

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Tourney Locator impression:
Dk Up B will create mountains of salts
Palutena with customs seems really good and already seem to be high tier without even much pratice
TL Shortfused bomb arent good imo... They would need 1 sec more cooldown for them to be real good (TL is one of my secondary and I tested them... I don't know how you can play a good range game with them... you get hit or you get forced to throw them too much )
Rosaluma is totally different and she seems better... I might pick her back up in a custom meta.

Seriously, those short fuse bombs were really more of a hindrance to Toon Link than Olimar. It may have been a matchup issue but...lol.

I missed the Denti interview, what did he say about Kong Cyclone?

EDIT: Also I think Luma Warp Rosalina is much more aggressive. Sending Luma out to do stuff regularly is pretty fun to watch.

 

[Pazx]

Denti just dropped some good knowledge on Kong Cyclone to the stream which amounted to "it's not a big deal". Awesome.

Care to expand? I missed it (but he's right, it's not a big deal).

Diddy has a custom banana that sends you upward and sets up for a u-air without d-throw. O_o

So, I've actually been doing some work with this (it's called Battering Banana Peel [BBP]). It doesn't seem like a bad option, honestly. Here's what I've discovered when comparing it to standard Bananas.

Pros:
True-combo into Uair at any relevant percent (IMPORTANT: true-combo into uair outside of Hoo-Hah percent)
True-combo into Fair at lower percentages
Better reward when hitting airborne foes
Better reward when hitting foes who are standing near the edge
Better reward when hitting foes out of pluck (eg Hoo Hah -> Pluck sets up for more juggles)
Does 1% on "trip"

Cons:
Isn't a hit-confirm to grab (which is a minor issue, BBP -> uair does similar amounts of damage to dthrow -> uair. This also means dthrow is being staled less which is a bad thing for Diddy)
Isn't a hit-confirm to fsmash (mitigated by the fact that it still leads into uair at ridiculous percents)

That's it for cons as far as I can see; it still forces shields, it still sets up for KOs, it still demands respect (perhaps even more) and it can be used to control space and stage positioning. We may have been jumping the gun when we declared Diddy's customs aren't that great.

Edit: someone should get the frame data for this move because the bananas fall closer to Diddy (easier to catch) and I think it's got the same if not shorter startup/cooldown than regular Bananas.

 

[thehard]

Care to expand? I missed it (but he's right, it's not a big deal).

Denti said in the post-finals interview that he felt like there was more that could be done to punish Kong Cyclone (which is true) and that it was working so well primarily because of the surprise factor. Plus, he noted, it's DK. He could use the extra utility.

 

[Kofu]

It was one salty commentator who didn't even know customs existed before this tournament. All of chat called him out. Even D1 made fun of the desire to ban customs. He LOVED the tournament

Really? He didn't even know customs existed? What, did he not even play single player? Or Smash 4 at all?

I don't use Toon Link, but I agree with the sentiment that they explode a little too fast. They trade a space-controlling tool for a high-damage throwing item that can't really be caught and used against him. I suppose the allure of the custom is that it immediately forces the opponent to act, usually in the defensive (but it also forces Toon Link's hand so eh).

If nothing else, it'll give us an option for playing Duelist Pro in Smash 4. Which is important.

 

[NairWizard]

Care to expand? I missed it (but he's right, it's not a big deal).



So, I've actually been doing some work with this (it's called Battering Banana Peel [BBP]). It doesn't seem like a bad option, honestly. Here's what I've discovered when comparing it to standard Bananas.

Pros:
True-combo into Uair at any relevant percent (IMPORTANT: true-combo into uair outside of Hoo-Hah percent)
True-combo into Fair at lower percentages
Better reward when hitting airborne foes
Better reward when hitting foes who are standing near the edge
Better reward when hitting foes out of pluck (eg Hoo Hah -> Pluck sets up for more juggles)
Does 1% on "trip"

Cons:
Isn't a hit-confirm to grab (which is a minor issue, BBP -> uair does similar amounts of damage to dthrow -> uair. This also means dthrow is being staled less which is a bad thing for Diddy)

That's it for cons as far as I can see; it still forces shields, it still sets up for KOs, it still demands respect (perhaps even more) and it can be used to control space and stage positioning. We may have been jumping the gun when we declared Diddy's customs aren't that great.

Edit: someone should get the frame data for this move because the bananas fall closer to Diddy (easier to catch) and I think it's got the same if not shorter startup/cooldown than regular Bananas.

Battering banana is great and when I mained Diddy (back in 1.0.3), I used it all the time. The biggest difference between the two is that Diddy can get an f-smash out of banana peel on hit confirm. Nice way to score KOs.

 

[thehard]

Really? He didn't even know customs existed? What, did he not even play single player? Or Smash 4 at all?

I don't use Toon Link, but I agree with the sentiment that they explode a little too fast. They trade a space-controlling tool for a high-damage throwing item that can't really be caught and used against him. I suppose the allure of the custom is that it immediately forces the opponent to act, usually in the defensive (but it also forces Toon Link's hand so eh).

If nothing else, it'll give us an option for playing Duelist Pro in Smash 4. Which is important.

I swear to god I heard him say "thanks man I didn't even know this existed". At any rate it showed a clear lack of game knowledge on his part.

 

[Thinkaman]

So i guess will's custom dk have to be banned.

I rearranged the words to fix it!

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Really? He didn't even know customs existed? What, did he not even play single player? Or Smash 4 at all?

I don't use Toon Link, but I agree with the sentiment that they explode a little too fast. They trade a space-controlling tool for a high-damage throwing item that can't really be caught and used against him. I suppose the allure of the custom is that it immediately forces the opponent to act, usually in the defensive (but it also forces Toon Link's hand so eh).

If nothing else, it'll give us an option for playing Duelist Pro in Smash 4. Which is important.

he knew they existed but you were probably spot on in saying he never played single player.

Also no bowser was a big dissapointment.

 

[thehard]

What did you guys think about Olimar vs. Rosa GF? (Spoiler: Olimar won)

I noticed someone in chat mentioning that although the beginning of the last game was a lot of spacing and camping, Olimar managed to turn it around and gain momentum, and eventually secure a victory only WHEN he started playing aggressively. I'll have to rewatch the VOD some time but it sure seemed that way to me.

I'm not one who feels the need to defend (lol) Smash 4's potential for aggression but it's nice knowing even the most defensive characters can make it work.

Might have just been Denti.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

What did you guys think about Olimar vs. Rosa GF? (Spoiler: Olimar won)

I noticed someone in chat mentioning that although the beginning of the last game was a lot of spacing and camping, Olimar managed to turn it around and gain momentum, and eventually secure a victory only WHEN he started playing aggressively. I'll have to rewatch the VOD some time but it sure seemed that way to me.

I'm not one who feels the need to defend (lol) Smash 4's potential for aggression but it's nice knowing even the most defensive characters can make it work.

Might have just been Denti.

naw man he was just putting up that agressive wall of camp man.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What did you guys think about Olimar vs. Rosa GF? (Spoiler: Olimar won)

I noticed someone in chat mentioning that although the beginning of the last game was a lot of spacing and camping, Olimar managed to turn it around and gain momentum, and eventually secure a victory only WHEN he started playing aggressively. I'll have to rewatch the VOD some time but it sure seemed that way to me.

I'm not one who feels the need to defend (lol) Smash 4's potential for aggression but it's nice knowing even the most defensive characters can make it work.

Might have just been Denti.

I noticed that since a lot of Rosalina's moves just have hitboxes on her feet or the Saturn rings, it's hard for her to dislodge Pikmin. She ended up resorting to usmash which I imagine is punishable if the Olimar is watching for it.

I want to know how Gravitational Pull interacts with Pikmin Throw and his smashes, since they also count as projectiles.

 

[thehard]

I noticed that since a lot of Rosalina's moves just have hitboxes on her feet or the Saturn rings, it's hard for her to dislodge Pikmin. She ended up resorting to usmash which I imagine is punishable if the Olimar is watching for it.

I want to know how Gravitational Pull interacts with Pikmin Throw and his smashes, since they also count as projectiles.

Pikmin bypass Gravitational Pull I believe. That would really suck otherwise.

 

[Balgorxz]

DK didn't even used hot slaps which are fast, kill at 100% and can be used for edgeguard since its not laggy on the air and has a good area of effect.
DK is a good example of how a "bad" character can become good with just 2 moves.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

DK didn't even used hot slaps which are fast, kill at 100% and can be used for edgeguard since its not laggy on the air and has a good area of effect.
DK is a good example of how a "bad" character can become good with just 2 moves.

i dunno hot slaps range just is meh for me.

 

[incrediblej]

I didn't get to watch that tourney can some one give me a quick list of who was used

And on toon lunks (I like calling him lunk or lank) short fuse bomb I say it would take more skill but I doubt the reward would be high enough to master them if you want to master short fuse might as well just get use it as you play toon lunk instead of practicing just play and if you mess up enough youll get used to them like getting used to playing pika or gannon almost perfectly so you don't get badly punished

Lank is pretty good is pretty good I feel like he just needs good reads to play him and meteor bomb can help you get to keep enemies off stage and gimping with him or to get anyone above him under him (insert inappropriate pun here) and his up air has a lasting hitbox and has real good range and his d air is safe on shields seeing that its a bit odd for his weight if you do it above an enemy timed right if they shield he'll bounce up and can land another hit and does good damage on shields and is faily safe, his up smash is good kill material on final hit, his down smash can kill on the back hit his side smash is very punishable with high reward on the second hit and nice range his boomerange is good and nice for combos on the return with its pull effect or mess up the timing enemy's attacks which can help get you out of situations because it can make enemy's slide past you and miss moves such as dash tilts not sure about super armor or whatever armor mac and gannon get

 

[TriTails]

One thing with Link is how he is weak against shield. Best he can do to combo is D-throw -> B-air -> F-tilt at low percentages (Maybe even 0%?). And we all know just how godly shield is in this game.

That jab -> jab -> Spin Attack though. A good alternative aside from the usual 3 jabs combo.

And how Tink manages to get so low end lag on his F-smash second hit compared to Link I have no clue. He also has lower end lag on his grab...

Apparently, Adult Link now get beaten by his younger selfs, THREE TIMES in a row. At early meta, I thought TP Link was vastly superior comapred to his Toon counterpart... But now...

 

[Ffamran]

One thing with Link is how he is weak against shield. Best he can do to combo is D-throw -> B-air -> F-tilt at low percentages (Maybe even 0%?). And we all know just how godly shield is in this game.

That jab -> jab -> Spin Attack though. A good alternative aside from the usual 3 jabs combo.

And how Tink manages to get so low end lag on his F-smash second hit compared to Link I have no clue. He also has lower end lag on his grab...

Apparently, Adult Link now get beaten by his younger selfs, THREE TIMES in a row. At early meta, I thought TP Link was vastly superior comapred to his Toon counterpart... But now...

Have you seen Young Link in Hyrule Warriors? Insane is all I can say. Technically, it's Fierce Deity Link doing most of the work, but a kid with that much power... Insane. It's like if Captain Marvel was even more powerful and didn't have to deal with the other kids to access his power.

Still, Link's Jab range is annoying. Jab 3's range is good... Very good for a Jab combo that doesn't move Link forward.

Hmm, I've been noticing a lot of Jab variations now like Fox's Jab 1, Jab 2, to a Smash or Falco's janky, slow Jab 1, Jab 2, grab, tilt, or Smash. It makes sense, though, from a fighting perspective that Jabs are important and can transition to different options other than Jab 3 or Rapid Jab Finisher.

Speaking of which, what makes Marth's/Lucina's Jab horrible? I don't use it often, but there's something about it that I can't put my feathery finger on it. Dtilt, Utilt, Ftilt, and even Dancing Blade feels like better options than their Jab.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Have you seen Young Link in Hyrule Warriors? Insane is all I can say. Technically, it's Fierce Deity Link doing most of the work, but a kid with that much power... Insane. It's like if Captain Marvel was even more powerful and didn't have to deal with the other kids to access his power.

Still, Link's Jab range is annoying. Jab 3's range is good... Very good for a Jab combo that doesn't move Link forward.

Hmm, I've been noticing a lot of Jab variations now like Fox's Jab 1, Jab 2, to a Smash or Falco's janky, slow Jab 1, Jab 2, grab, tilt, or Smash. It makes sense, though, from a fighting perspective that Jabs are important and can transition to different options other than Jab 3 or Rapid Jab Finisher.

Speaking of which, what makes Marth's/Lucina's Jab horrible? I don't use it often, but there's something about it that I can't put my feathery finger on it. Dtilt, Utilt, Ftilt, and even Dancing Blade feels like better options than their Jab.

You arleady nailed it in the head man. they are better options.

 

[Ffamran]

You arleady nailed it in the head man. they are better options.

Then why do they even have that move?! Hell, just replace it with Dancing Blade and make their Side Special Critical Hit, the most OP Side Special in the game. Yeah, take that Diddy Uair.

So, does Marth/Lucina have the worst Jab in the game? Well, that's one option out of their game plan... Does it have a niche use? Like, maybe some weird glitchy thing that makes their Jab remotely useful?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Then why do they even have that move?! Hell, just replace it with Dancing Blade and make their Side Special Critical Hit, the most OP Side Special in the game. Yeah, take that Diddy Uair.

So, does Marth/Lucina have the worst Jab in the game? Well, that's one option out of their game plan... Does it have a niche use? Like, maybe some weird glitchy thing that makes their Jab remotely useful?

Marcina Jab is 5 frames. That's not bad especially given the space it covers. Just the reward is pretty crappy.

To be serious, Ganon's Jab is the worst in the game. That move is 8 frames and can't even cover spotdodge.

 

[Kofu]

Marcina Jab is 5 frames. That's not bad especially given the space it covers. Just the reward is pretty crappy.

To be serious, Ganon's Jab is the worst in the game. That move is 8 frames and can't even cover spotdodge.

It's also more likely than not going to deal 6% damage sourspot (what does the sweetspot deal? I honestly see it so little that I don't remember lol).

 

[Ffamran]

It's also more likely than not going to deal 6% damage sourspot (what does the sweetspot deal? I honestly see it so little that I don't remember lol).

Wait, Ganondorf's Jab has a sour/sweet spot? Also, Zelda's Jab comes out at frame 11, the slowest Jab in the game, but I think it has a decent hitbox to make up for that and it hits 2-3 times.

 

[BJN39]

Does ganon's Jab have any on-hit rewards? Like, Jab>Grab/Ftilt/DashAttack/Grab? If so if definitely say at LEAST it would be better than Zelda's.

Frame 11, 6%, whiffs on anything temporarily too low, (Aerials that land with a very low crouched landing animation are very common.) and random pop-outs. It has good range and lack of end lag though, and gets things on hit, so I'm not exactly upset with its lousy aspects. Probably not the worst jab, really, but ganon's jab doesn't seem that bad.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's also more likely than not going to deal 6% damage sourspot (what does the sweetspot deal? I honestly see it so little that I don't remember lol).

Ganon Jab is 8 damage tippered. So basically it's a really crappy F-tilt at best. At point blank range it even only does 4%...lol.

I mean there's situations where I'll use Jab out of shield (or out of Flame Choke) simply because the speed and range are sometimes needed for specific punishes. But overall Ganon's Jab is heavily outclassed by his tilts which are safer on shield, have better hitboxes, and are more rewarding.

Does ganon's Jab have any on-hit rewards? Like, Jab>Grab/Ftilt/DashAttack/Grab? If so if definitely say at LEAST it would be better than Zelda's.

Frame 11, 6%, whiffs on anything temporarily too low, (Aerials that land with a very low crouched landing animation are very common.) and random pop-outs. It has good range and lack of end lag though, and gets things on hit, so I'm not exactly upset with its lousy aspects. Probably not the worst jab, really, but ganon's jab doesn't seem that bad.

Zelda gets tech chase punishes from her Jab because it has low ending lag, and her Jab actually is REALLY GOOD against spotdodges (and shield). Zelda's Jab is pretty good, if extremely atypical and probably not what she really wants.

Ganon's Jab is so laggy...it's the only Jab in the game that gets punished by spotdodge.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

Then why do they even have that move?! Hell, just replace it with Dancing Blade and make their Side Special Critical Hit, the most OP Side Special in the game. Yeah, take that Diddy Uair.

So, does Marth/Lucina have the worst Jab in the game? Well, that's one option out of their game plan... Does it have a niche use? Like, maybe some weird glitchy thing that makes their Jab remotely useful?

I would actualy argue this now that i think about it. But realistically speaking why would you ever use this move EVER?
From what i know at least ganon has combo's that at least involve jab. And when u actually land the jab it knocks opponents far enough away. Samus is frame three and can actually link the second hit if u catch your opponent in the air. Also gets opponents off of you when they are at highish percents.

What does marths jab actually do for him that another option does not cover better? Maybe im just un informed since i don't main him. but is there even any combo's that use marths jab?

@ Shaya @Emblem Lord ?

 

[Saturn_]

I picked up Luigi and he almost instantly became my favorite fighter so far. I love how elementary and building-block his combos are, the way he sets up off fireball and throw and uses all the parts of his moveset...Great character, I felt the power right away.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I picked up Luigi and he almost instantly became my favorite fighter so far. I love how elementary and building-block his combos are, the way he sets up off fireball and throw and uses all the parts of his moveset...Great character, I felt the power right away.

Thats nice.

 

[Saturn_]

Thats nice.

It's only within the last week or two that I've really been able to play the game at all, sometimes it's hard not to come on here and just blather away.

 

[Yonder]

It's only within the last week or two that I've really been able to play the game at all, sometimes it's hard not to come on here and just blather away.

Always nice to see another Luigi main. Embrace the power of a first time ever high tier Luigi! [Even though I never thought he was bad in Brawl either asides from his MK, Marth, DDD, and Game and Watch matchups...now he beats all those characters]

 

[Road Death Wheel]

It's only within the last week or two that I've really been able to play the game at all, sometimes it's hard not to come on here and just blather away.

Ah so your just having the new exposure hypness/exploration. thats cool.

some quirky charaters you may wana playaround with.

DK
Bowser
Pits
Zelda
Ike.

Those are some with neat transitional changes.
For some reason i feel like you tried ganon already. (everyone loves ganon.)

@ Y Yonder i would argue that luigi still loses Those MU's. It just so happens that those character are no longer dominant.

 

[Saturn_]

Ah so your just having the new exposure hypness/exploration. thats cool.

some quirky charaters you may wana playaround with.

DK
Bowser
Pits
Zelda
Ike.

Those are some with neat transitional changes.
For some reason i feel like you tried ganon already. (everyone loves ganon.)

In my signature I list the characters I've been messing around with, I plan on testing out half the cast before I pick a main. I update it if you want to track my progress. Any advice and pointers are welcome, I probably only have like 20-30 hours on the game.

 

[Ffamran]

The only thing I can think of where you would use Ganondorf's Jab is if you really need that 2 less frames compared to Dtilt and Ftilt on the ground. So, if someone locked you in a Jab combo or something. I have used it in situations like that, but I would rather use his Dtilt, Ftilt, Bair, Fair, Uair, or Nair to get out of stuff or keep myself away from them by punishing before they attack considering Ganondorf's respectable range on his attacks.