Character Competitive Impressions

[Deathcarter]

Mii Brawler being in the 40 range is an absolute travesty. Seriously, I'm now actually interested in seeing a Mii fighter place top 8 at Apex if only to witness the collective mind screw that would happen at /r/Smashbros.

 

[Chuva]

I don't care about anything on this list other then Bowser being 9.
Can the bowser hype please die and stay buried.

I admit I too used to propagate fraudulent hype of Bowser possibly being a high tier, but I've learned the error of my ways and made peace with him being an ok mid tier character.

With that said...

20 | | 24.9 | (+29)

 

[FullMoon]

Oh wow that list. Samus just below Greninja and above Pit, Megaman, Pac-man and Villager. Same with Zelda. I can't even.

How did Dr.Mario get that high? Seriously.

It's kinda funny though, considering Samus is my secondary.

 

[HFlash]

Yoshi loses to Sheik and Diddy is questionable.

I agree with this. One of Yoshi's biggest tools "the egg" may as well not exist vs this MU. Shiek can by pass them easily and toe-toe, Shiek can easily out combo and out pressure a yoshi from doing what he wants to do.

 

[Ffamran]

At least Falco is closer to being dead center mid tier.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

19 |

Oh hey yeah, I can get down with this! Nineteenth? P. solid, yeah, I agree, D3 totally----

21 | | 25.7 | (+1) /
22 | | 26.3 | (-11)
23 | | 26.6 | (-13)
24 | | 27.8 | (+7)
25 | | 28.2 | (-1) / | | 28.2 | (+20)
26 | | 28.3 | (+3)
27 | | 28.4 | (+14)
28 | | 28.6 | (+15)
29| | 29.5 | (-18)
30 | | 29.7 | (-4)
31 | | 29.8 | (+18)
32 | | 30.2 | (-15)
33 | | 32.6 | (-11)
34 | | 33.1 | (-1)
35 | | 33.2 (+9) / | 33.2 | (-4)
36 | | 34.0 | (±0) / | 34.0 | (-20)
37 | | 34.5 | (-10)
38 | | 34.9 | (-3)
39 | | 35.0 | (-2)
40 | | 36.6 | (+2)
41 | | 37.1 | (-13)
42 | | 38.4 | (-17)
43 | | 39.4 | (+4)
44 | | 42.1 | (+2)
45 | | 45.3 | (-9)
46 | | 49.6 | (±0)

wait why is he above the likes of Pac and Shulk I don't even

NOOOOOOOO

Smooth Criminal

 

[HFlash]

Feels like is placed a bit too high and are placed too low.

 

[IsmaR]

I would assume Mii's are so low due to most people not liking the default/"legal" sets for them.

 

[Nobie]

While Bowser might have been overhyped in the past, I sort of feel like there's a similarly unjustified backlash. Watching Bowser in action, it's actually frightening how strong he is and how surprisingly agile he can be. Viewing a recent tournament where a Bowser fought a couple of Sheiks, for example, the Sheiks would pummel Bowser endlessly... and then two or three successful reads later Bowser would KO Sheik with bair at like 65%.

More broadly, while Sheik's "lack of killing power" might be exaggerated, I do wonder if she has trouble with the more mobile heavies. Ganondorf isn't much of an issue, and I could see Sheik wrecking Dedede, but Bowser and DK (and maybe Wario?) look like they could give Sheik some concern.

 

[ZombieBran]

Zelda 25th? HAHAHA.
Not even the excuse of exposure helps because Zelda isn't exactly an oft used character.

r/smashbros what goes on in your heads?

 

[Jose_Knight]

Can anyone tell me where the Meta Knight is bad?
To me, he is very good, mainly because of Dimensional Cap.

 

[Locke 06]

Pac beats sheik due to aforementioned reasons, and can keep diddy at bay with fruit that ignore bananas and a hydrant that stops up air juggles. He also gimps diddy extremely easily.

Mega Man can counter diddy by eliminating bananas with lemons and stopping his approach options, but loses pretty badly to sheik's strings and set ups. I would love to be proven wrong though...
Actually...
@ Locke 06
How does mega man do against sheik?

I dunno. I have had very little Sheik experience outside of the first three weeks of Smash 3DS, which is surprising considering how good the character is. Sheik is one of the MU's that I feel like I don't know what I'm doing when trying to reset to neutral. MM gets strung out for days because of his weight and lack of traditional Nair.

Sheik has a hard time getting through, and BF (while amazing) is not the answer to everything as much as Tristan says. BF is met with SH pellets or simply jumping up and avoiding it>punish. Throwing a metal blade (non item) / crash bomb in bouncing fish range is a bad idea, but Sheik is usually under so much pellet pressure that they'll block instead of BF. Danger Wrap/ice slasher is recommended.

Needle camping really isn't that good against MM. His SH is high enough to go over it and he can still hit Sheik wish SH pellets to pressure at mid-range until she decides to do something about it.

The fact that she can't punish well helps Mega Man a lot. He can throw out kill moves and live for quite a while. As long as he mixes up his recovery, off stage should be roughly even.

There are quite a few sheik v MM matches on YouTube, which is where I'm basing most of this on. I don't think it's a terrible matchup. Mega Man can definity hold his own against anyone in the cast. I would probably say it's either even or slightly in Sheik's favor, but it's not death.

The mega man boards are probably going to do the Sheik matchup soonish as a necessary prep for Apex, so as a community we'll have a more solid analysis of the MU once that's over.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

The fact that she can't punish well

Come again?
I think you're speaking spanish or something because I do not understand.

 

[Nocally]

I have been looking at Yoshi´s frame data, while good, nothing super spectacular. So my conclusion on why he is so good comes from his hit/hurt boxes that surrounds him (combined with his weight and mobility), but I have also noticed that Yoshi seems to be able to move and attack more quickly out of hit -stun than other characters. Yoshi seems so quick to retaliate both on the ground and in the air that he will either hit you or trade damage with you.

or am I just imagining things because his moves have good start-up frames?

 

[meleebrawler]

Come again?
I think you're speaking spanish or something because I do not understand.

I think he means Sheik can't punish hard, most
of her moves individually do low damage and given Megaman's
ranged nature, it may be difficult for Sheik to punish with anything
other than a dash attack.

And ket's also not forget the usefulness
of Leaf Shield stymying Sheik's options on the ground.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think Fox, Mii Brawler, Wario and Sonic are among the characters that are even against both Sheik and Diddy Kong.

 

[dragontamer]

I have been looking at Yoshi´s frame data, while good, nothing super spectacular. So my conclusion on why he is so good comes from his hit/hurt boxes that surrounds him (combined with his weight and mobility), but I have also noticed that Yoshi seems to be able to move and attack more quickly out of hit -stun than other characters. Yoshi seems so quick to retaliate both on the ground and in the air that he will either hit you or trade damage with you.

or am I just imagining things because his moves have good start-up frames?

You're imagining things.

Also, I think Yoshi is a bit misrepresented in the frame data, as the frame data currently has no cooldown information on it. Yoshi's cooldowns are very good. Maybe not "Mario" good, but Yoshi recovers very quickly from great moves like USmash. (For its Damage / Knockback, USmash recovers much quicker than I'd expect... on par with Rob's USmash)

 

[ChopperDave]

I dunno. I have had very little Sheik experience outside of the first three weeks of Smash 3DS, which is surprising considering how good the character is. Sheik is one of the MU's that I feel like I don't know what I'm doing when trying to reset to neutral. MM gets strung out for days because of his weight and lack of traditional Nair.

Sheik has a hard time getting through, and BF (while amazing) is not the answer to everything as much as Tristan says. BF is met with SH pellets or simply jumping up and avoiding it>punish. Throwing a metal blade (non item) / crash bomb in bouncing fish range is a bad idea, but Sheik is usually under so much pellet pressure that they'll block instead of BF. Danger Wrap/ice slasher is recommended.

Needle camping really isn't that good against MM. His SH is high enough to go over it and he can still hit Sheik wish SH pellets to pressure at mid-range until she decides to do something about it.

The fact that she can't punish well helps Mega Man a lot. He can throw out kill moves and live for quite a while. As long as he mixes up his recovery, off stage should be roughly even.

There are quite a few sheik v MM matches on YouTube, which is where I'm basing most of this on. I don't think it's a terrible matchup. Mega Man can definity hold his own against anyone in the cast. I would probably say it's either even or slightly in Sheik's favor, but it's not death.

The mega man boards are probably going to do the Sheik matchup soonish as a necessary prep for Apex, so as a community we'll have a more solid analysis of the MU once that's over.

I can speak to the Sheik matchup, having played against quite a few very good Sheiks as Mega Man.

Mega Man can give Sheik a hard time because he has range and good trap potential. He can pretty easily get a Metal Blade in hand or Leaf Shield up during footsies, and both give him solid offensive and defensive options. If he has one of these and shields a hit from Sheik, he pretty much has a guaranteed grab, and grab -> pummel -> throw is probably Mega Man's best DPS, so he doesn't mind that at all.

Bouncing Fish can be risky because MM's fsmash has such range. Against good MM play, Sheik needs to always weigh the possibility of the MM perfect pivoting, dashing back well out of her BF range, and punishing with a pivot fsmash. Sheik also has to be careful with her aerial approaches, as Mega Man has some pretty solid antiair options (in order of strength, I'd say these are Danger Wrap if customs on, SHFF uair, running usmash, utilt or dsmash if you're feeling ballsy.) His standing grab range is ridiculously good so it can be surprisingly tough to space attacks against him when he is shielding.

Mega Man is also one of the few characters capable of making Sheik's offstage game hard. I've trapped many greedy Sheiks using Crash Bomber when returning to the stage. MM can attach Crash Bomb to the stage, bait out a gimp attempt by the Sheik, avoid it or ledge tech the hit, safely recover back to the ledge, then laugh as the Crash Bomb stage spikes her. Sheik also has to be wary of Leaf Shield when returning to the stage -- if MM has LS up and either shields near the ledge or ledge hogs, the leaves will often stuff her before she grabs the ledge, even if she uses BF or Vanish to get there. MM can then follow up by running off stage into a footstool, bair, of dair before she can Vanish back up. If customs are on, Danger Wrap can make offstage hell for Sheik as well.

Sheik's strengths in this matchup are her needles, grenades, and fast movement. Needles can interrupt Mega Man's flow, and if he gets a MB in hand and throws/z-drops it, Sheik can use needles to knock it out of the sky. Grenades will cancel and punish even a fully charged fsmash, IIRC, which is great for Sheik-- though if she mispredicts, Mega Man can get in on her and punish hard. And simply by moving around constantly and unpredictably, Sheik can make it harder for MM to land his Metal Blade -> utilt combo, which is one of his favorite kill setups.

Sheik's best gameplan in the matchup is just to get in MM's face and never give him the time or space to set up with MB or LS. When MM gets rushed down and panics he'll often go for the shield grab, as that's generally his best and safest option at close range. Sheik can bait that out and punish by fast falling out of range and then hitting him with a dash attack or grab. Because Mega Man is heavy this is often all she needs to set up a damaging combo string at low percents. (MM can UpB away to reset at mid-to-high percents.)

Overall, I find this matchup often ends up being a knockdown drag out fight, with both characters living to high percents and struggling to get a KO. Both characters have ways to pepper each other with damage, allowing them to slowly chip away at each other over the course of match; both can combo each other at low percents but have more and more trouble doing that at higher percents; both have solid camping options and don't have to approach if they don't want to; and both can punish each other's whiffed KO moves hard, which can make both the MM and Sheik players wary of throwing out unsafe moves unless they are absolutely certain they will hit.

For Sheik, most stocks end with Mega Man getting a kill throw (his bthrow), a SHFF uair kill, a fsmash punish kill on whiffed BF, a MB -> utilt kill on whiffed dash attack/grab, or an offstage kill with bair. For Mega Man, most stocks end when Sheik gets a successful read/punish with fsmash/BF, or stage spikes him offstage with bair or BF. She can sometimes get him with uair or offstage fair, but that can be tough to pull off because MM can very quickly get out of the way using his UpB, or fake her out with a b-reversed NeutralB or DownB.

I'd say it's even. I don't think there's anything that skews the matchup decidedly in one character's favor. Both have pretty solid options, and both have weaknesses that the other can take advantage of. I actually really enjoy fighting Sheik, as it often ends up being a VERY mind game intensive match.

 

[Locke 06]

Come again?
I think you're speaking spanish or something because I do not understand.

I'll stay by that statement for now. My impression is that Sheik is fantastic at punishing anything and everything due to her speed and how everything links in her moveset, but her combos aren't that damaging or powerful. Her positional advantage (able to exert pressure and have initiative) that she gains is a great reward off of punishes, but the actual punish itself isn't great.

Edit: so the overall punish ability is only okay. I think of being able to punish and the reward from punish as 2 sides of the coin I'm trying to put a value on.

I'd love to be enlightened though. If someone wants to link me to a video where Sheik does a strong punish.

Side note: I don't understand all the Fox love. Someone explain? All I've got is, "he's versatile" and "forces approaches."

 

[Vengeance_NS]

I think Fox, Mii Brawler, Wario and Sonic are among the characters that are even against both Sheik and Diddy Kong.

Wario goes even with Diddy all day and the majority of top characters but I feel sheik wins that all day. Why do you feel it's even?

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Here's the results of the /r/smashbros monthly voted tier list!
​

Just a quick reminder, this list is obviously not perfectly accurate. This is a way to see what the general masses think of each character and to encourage character discussion on /r/smashbros. I'll be comparing this to last month's result for those interested.

I know the rule about tier lists in this thread, so I just want to point out how this has relevance. Over 460 people responded to this month's poll. This is what the general populace thinks of the cast of smash, this is the impressions on characters from the general public. It's insightful to see what these folks are thinking and how these impressions move around.

Also to change things up a bit this month and present a better list, I will not be splitting the characters into letter categories. Instead, I will just be showing their score from the poll, and how many positions they moved (if any).

Without further ado, here we go!!!
[collapse=The Results!]
1 | | 4.5 | (±0)
2 | | 6.5 | (±0)
3 | | 7.0 | (+1)
4 | | 9.7 | (+2)
5 | | 11.3 | (+35)
6 | | 11.4 | (+2)
7 | | 15.3 | (+18)
8 | | 15.7 | (+5)
9 | | 16.9 | (+7) / | 16.9 | (-2)
10 | | 17.1 | (-7)
11 | | 17.5 | (-2)
12 | | 17.6 | (-7)
13 | | 18.6 | (+7)
14 | | 19.7 | (±0)
15 | | 19.9 | (+4)
16 | | 20.6 | (+17)
17 | | 21.3 | (+18)
18 | | 23.5 | (+21)
19 | | 24.0 | (-4)
20 | | 24.9 | (+29)
21 | | 25.7 | (+1) / | 25.7 | (±0)
22 | | 26.3 | (-11)
23 | | 26.6 | (-13)
24 | | 27.8 | (+7)
25 | | 28.2 | (-1) / | | 28.2 | (+20)
26 | | 28.3 | (+3)
27 | | 28.4 | (+14)
28 | | 28.6 | (+15)
29| | 29.5 | (-18)
30 | | 29.7 | (-4)
31 | | 29.8 | (+18)
32 | | 30.2 | (-15)
33 | | 32.6 | (-11)
34 | | 33.1 | (-1)
35 | | 33.2 (+9) / | 33.2 | (-4)
36 | | 34.0 | (±0) / | 34.0 | (-20)
37 | | 34.5 | (-10)
38 | | 34.9 | (-3)
39 | | 35.0 | (-2)
40 | | 36.6 | (+2)
41 | | 37.1 | (-13)
42 | | 38.4 | (-17)
43 | | 39.4 | (+4)
44 | | 42.1 | (+2)
45 | | 45.3 | (-9)
46 | | 49.6 | (±0)
[/collapse]

Thing of note:

Instead of using upvotes and downvotes this month we had a poll where people could order the characters in an attempt to be more accurate. After doing this certain characters seemed to jump around a LOT. This could be what we've seen before as the months go on with opinions drastically changing or it could be this new method more accurately reflecting the feelings of the general populace. Just found it worth noting.

So now that we know what these folks are thinking about the characters, thoughts?

Link Bowser peach Mario are laughable at their positions. Sonic below bowser is hilarious. Also I think fox is over rated in general everyone has to high of a opinion of him.

 

[dragontamer]

Here's the results of the /r/smashbros monthly voted tier list!
​

Just a quick reminder, this list is obviously not perfectly accurate. This is a way to see what the general masses think of each character and to encourage character discussion on /r/smashbros. I'll be comparing this to last month's result for those interested.

Holy moley. Robin, Megaman and DarkPit are winning entire tournaments and aren't even voted in the top 30 on that list. A player has also won with Villager IIRC, who is completely underrated by that list (rank 30). That's four characters voted in the bottom-half of the game despite tournament results.

This list is everything about why I don't trust Tier lists for months. The community is just too immature right now. After APEX, the community will probably mature a bit. Ultimately, I agree with you, this list is very good for getting a "community feel", but its a very poor a tournament or metagame tool. Its probably best to just ignore the list entirely.

That said...

42 | | 38.4 | (-17)

Yeah... this list is totally legit </sarcasm>

Vote-based tier lists are always lulzy. But this list is especially bad, even for a voting-based list.

--------------------

I get the feeling that Jigglypuff is currently underrated, and is probably going to be destined for top-tier. She's got no-joke, one of the strongest BAirs in the game. There's more KO potential on Jiggly's BAir than Robin, C. Falcon, Rob... and despite its strength it is also one of the easiest BAir's to land.

The calcs have been run. Jiggly's BAir has more Knockback than Diddy's FSmash. Heck, Jiggly's BAir has mre knockback than Diddy's entire moveset. Let that sink into your brains for a bit.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wario goes even with Diddy all day and the majority of top characters but I feel sheik wins that all day. Why do you feel it's even?

Wario survives to about 500% each stock against Sheik all day.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

For that list, wouldn't ties count as two listing spots? Because on that they're only one.

 

[Chuva]

So from what I'm gathering in these pages, Megaman is our lord and savior that can stand his ground against the Sheikah and the Monkey?

 

[Nu~]

So from what I'm gathering in these pages, Megaman is our lord and savior that can stand his ground against the the Sheikah and the Monkey?

Pac-man, fox, and wario were also mentioned to go toe to toe with (or beat, in Pac-Man's case) diddy and sheik

 

[Smooth Criminal]

So from what I'm gathering in these pages, Megaman is our lord and savior that can stand his ground against the the Sheikah and the Monkey?

Pew pew all day

Smooth Criminal

 

[dragontamer]

So from what I'm gathering in these pages, Megaman is our lord and savior that can stand his ground against the the Sheikah and the Monkey?

Even matchups with perceived top-tiers is useful, but doesn't necessarily make a character tops. I'm thinking that Diddy will have issues against characters who can off-stage harass him, like Jigglypuff or PacMan...

Diddy's Up-B gets gimped. Leaving Side-B as the safest way to really get back on stage. Kinda like Little-Mac, except with much better moves. Lol.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

There's also, uh, someone else who can go even with both Sheik and Diddy

Its...

Spoiler

!

Kappa

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Pac-man, fox, and wario were also mentioned to go toe to toe with (or beat, in Pac-Man's case) diddy and sheik

I play a solid wario. I just don't see how the sheik mu is even. Just because wario lives forever doesn't mean the mu is even. bowser lives forever too and that mu is horrible for him

 

[Nu~]

I play a solid wario. I just don't see how the sheik mu is even. Just because wario lives forever doesn't mean the mu is even. bowser lives forever too and that mu is horrible for him

Oh...to be honest, I just put down who I saw most often in the last few pages when it came to who can beat sheik and diddy (except in pac-man's case, I just know the matchup)
But for everyone including myself, could you explain why wario gets murdered by sheik?

 

[Chuva]

Pac-man, fox, and wario were also mentioned to go toe to toe with diddy and sheik

True, but I just wish there were more available gameplay of Pac-man and Wario against either of them. I've seen my share of Megaman vs Diddy and it does sound very even.

ROB also seems decent against Diddy, but not sure against Sheik.

 

[Antonykun]

Eh. I dunno about having a clear advantage over Diddy. I'd say it is more on the even side or maybe slightly in diddy's favor. She might be able to disable a tool of his but he is still an incredibly mobile character that can play rushdown and easily invade Villagers space, with or without Nanner, and Villager has a bit of a rough time with characters that can quickly and effectively invade his space. Being able to gimp him off stage is all well and good but you have to get him off stage first, which is easier said then done. This is presuming defaults. If Customs were to come into the equation then I could see Villager having a slight advantage over Diddy as Wabbuffet Tree, specifically the sapling, is good at controlling an area of space and forcing more rushdown orienated characters to take riskier approaches. But default has a tough time dealing with mobile characters that can quickly and efficiently invade his space.

Sheik probably has an advantage over Villager and Wobbuffet Tree doesn't help that much in the MU because Needles are annoying.

The thing about Diddy invading her place is that Lloyd temporarily shuts down Diddy's ground game with Lloyd as long as Lloyd is out Diddy has to block,jump,or roll to deal with it. From what I heard Diddy's air mobility is bad so if he's in the air he has to commit and Villager can capitalize off it.

I will admit I'm theory crafting right now and the only Diddy vs Villager i saw was Zero vs Salem and that video is really dubious in my eyes.

 

[Vengeance_NS]

Oh...to be honest, I just put down who I saw most often in the last few pages when it came to who can beat sheik and diddy (except in pac-man's case, I just know the matchup)
But for everyone including myself, could you explain why wario gets murdered by sheik?

I didn't say murdered it's like 6-4 her favor. But she can rush him down he has a ton of issues getting her off of him. She racks up damage fast and he gets juggeled for days. Also landing a waft on her is a bit harder than most other characters. she has a nice projectile game as well. Wario doesn't really own the air space against her either.

 

[Kisatamura]

We Docs are coming...

But in all seriousness, Dr. Mario should be mid, but not that high in mid. Unless there's some specific tech or move that made him jump 29 spaces.

 

[Capt. Tin]

How did Dr.Mario get that high? Seriously.

I'm pretty sure people are actually trying Doc out and seeing that he's not just a slower Mario with more power and a worse recovery. His Horiztonal recovery isn't that bad and he has a lot of punish options and good OOS options too.

 

[ZHMT]

The list would be a lot more accurate if it forced you to move at least two thirds of the character spots before submitting it.

Also there's so much ignorance going on its unbelievable. Sometimes I think people don't follow the scene and tournament results at all and go on making top 10-20 lists.

This list falls under the same issues as the Eventhubs list, people are incredibly biased and just want their characters on top or ones they don't like lower etc.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm pretty sure people are actually trying Doc out and seeing that he's not just a slower Mario with more power and a worse recovery. His Horiztonal recovery isn't that bad and he has a lot of punish options and good OOS options too.

I don't doubt Dr.Mario is good, but I can't see him being better than Shulk, Pac-Man, Greninja, Villager or R.O.B

 

[dragontamer]

Shiek vs Pacman is interesting, and revolves around fruit.

PacMan's Cherry and Strawberry eat up all of Shiek's needles, and lay a good trap to prevent dash-in attempts. PacMan can simply throw out Cherries and Strawberries as a camp-strategy, forcing Shiek to approach PacMan without aid of projectiles. Granted, Shiek's approach game is superb, but PacMan's got one of the few SH Fairs that goes approximately even with Shiek's Fair / Nair. Furthermore, frame-6 partial-invincibility on Pac-Man's UTilt can punish many aerial approaches safely from the ground. PacMan easily beats Shiek's SH Fair approach with multiple options, even without a throw. (note: PacMan's extremely slow 12-frame throw is amongst the slowest grabs in the game. Its a terrible OOS option). OOS, PacMan is looking at Nair for punishes.

Mid-tier fruit, like Orange and Melon, shutdown Shiek's needles and give Pacman some room to approach. Grounded approach options are made more difficult: Shiek has to go all-in and "catch" the fruit while simultaneously using Dash-attack to get in vs PacMan for a ground approach. Pacman could shield instead and FTilt Shiek back into the neutral game.

At this point, I've noticed that Shiek players start to use safer Short-hop approaches in response to Orange and Melon... which was covered earlier. Hope is not all lost for Shiek however... as PacMan really can't approach her safely either.

PacMan's safest approach is probably dashing from behind Melon. But entering the dash state removes a ton of options for PacMan. I'm thinking that maybe if I learn to Perfect-Pivot out of PacMan's FoxTrot, I'll do better, but as it stands, dashing behind Melon removes PacMan's Up-tilt option to beat Shiek's SHs Fairs. Shiek also has the "all-in" options with Grenade and Bouncing Fish... which go well against the Melon. But a quick Shield -> Sidestep vs Fish... or a whiffed Grenade is all Pacman needs to punish Shiek. Its a risky game here.

Both characters have a 3-frame Nair that is used to screw up your opponent's pseudo-combo game. A messed up combo from either player gets punished with quick "get off me" Nairs that PacMan and Shiek have extremely easy access to. PacMan's Hydrant gives him an emergency escape option, but I've noticed that high-level Shiek players know how to deal with it already.

I'll describe Hydrant as a wildcard that coerces a mistake from the Shiek player. Nothing guaranteed, and certainly punishable if the Shiek predicts it. But the mental-pressure it exerts can give PacMan much needed breathing room to reset the game back to neutral.

Eventually, Shiek players learn to stop SH Approaches vs PacMan in the neutral game. And when both players play a strong ground game, it becomes a slower, campier patience game where both sides are fishing for a mistake. I'm inclined to believe Shiek has the slight advantage here, as PacMan's strong KO options are slower and unsafe and telegraphed. (Erm... more-so than Shiek's Bouncing Fish and Vanish anyway).

Damage will regularly get to 160%+, and then Shiek or PacMan will rely on Bair to kill.

Unless an opponent gets a "hard read" on the other guy and can land one of the earlier kill moves. Pacman can reliably KO Shiek around 100% with a hard-read with FSmash. Shiek might make a mistake and get KOed from Hydrant, but I rarely see Hydrant actually KO high-level opponents. Going for the Bell KO or Key KO might help, but PacMan loses out on Cherry, Strawberry, Orange, and Melon pressure... giving Shiek the opportunity to needle PacMan all day.

Similarly, Shiek might get a good read with a surprise Vanish or BF... but I'm gonna bet that the typical kill will be from a safe Bair.

Within "footsie" distance, where fruit can be punished by the Shiek user... it seems like PacMan's FTilt can space Shiek's ground approach safely and effectively. Converting PacMan's FTilt hit into a reliable kill however remains a mystery for me. Sheik's needles become much more useful at this distance as well, but is punished by PacMan's SH->Nair.

I'm thinking 5.5 - 4.5, Shiek's favor vs Pacman... and certainly the game's "momentum" is a very large factor.

 

[Kisatamura]

I don't doubt Dr.Mario is good, but I can't see him being better than Shulk, Pac-Man, Greninja, Villager or R.O.B

For Pac-Man, Villager and ROB, I think people are unfamiliar with these characters, especially ROB. However I actually don't see how Greninja went into mid, and it can't be because of the last patch unless I'm missing something here.