Character Competitive Impressions

[meleebrawler]

I think Donkey Kong really struggles against characters with strong projectile games, because he has nothing to counteract that. But if he can manage to get in on opponents he can really be fearsome. He has good speed and mobility for a heavy, lives to high %s (giving him that rage bonus), puts on tons of shield pressure, has a great anti-roll move with his Down+B, and has long-range and powerful attacks.

I actually challenged Will's DK on his stream with my Rosalina and did much better than I thought I would. We played two 2-stock games. He won both, but both times I got him to his second stock and got him over 100% damage. And I'm someone who never really played Smash until I got the 3DS version. Will is a much better player than me, so that makes me think that DK might just have a bad match up with Rosalina. (Unless I'm just not giving myself enough credit as a player... not really sure.)

I find that the armour on grounded Spinning Kong
helps when it comes to beating projectiles. (At least
weaker ones).

At best, you eat the projectile with armour and hit the opponent.
Slightly worse, you clank with the projectile and get a little closer.
At worse, the opponent shields and you possibly get punished.

DK can move surprisingly far forward when using this move, a
trade-off for no longer being able to move backwards.
Because of this, once you condition your opponent to watch
for this move, you can stop projectile use at mid range
(think Megaman pellet range).

 

[LostinpinK]

I wonder why Pika is not seeing more play, I see him at Sheik and DDK's level now, or he's the closest to them at least. He's probably just harder to play.

@ Tagxy could you explain your thoughts on Peach / Olimar / Mario being harder than Ness? I still see Olimar and Mario as below average characters so I'm surprised. I have little experience with Pika but I thought Ness and Sheik were his hardest matchups. Also heard talks of Greninja being tough.

 

[Shaya]

Pika has issues with good priority, especially things that cover below their bodies/close to the ground reliably. Smaller hurtboxes, good recoveries and kill power counteract what pikachu tends to want to achieve as well.

That is OLIMAR the character. Olimar is not a bad character.

 

[Trifroze]

You mean "still the best teams character."

No one can ever take that away from us <3

Except Villager :^]

 

[Ffamran]

Pika has issues with good priority, especially things that cover below their bodies/close to the ground reliably.

Now I'm starting to wonder how Meta Knight would fare against Pikachu since a lot of his attacks are close to the ground and since Meta Knight has good air and off-stage game.

 

[Shaya]

Now I'm starting to wonder how Meta Knight would fare against Pikachu since a lot of his attacks are close to the ground and since Meta Knight has good air and off-stage game.

Terribly, because Pikachu is just a better version of MK (he out does MK in every department bar 5 jumps and dash grab)
MK doesn't have good priority or kill power in the MU, his aerial game is too poor against Pika IMO.

MK is a doubles character this game (possibly "The" doubles character, he fits into every team almost as well as he did in Brawl, only Diddy/Pika are looking more universally consistent). He's just too weak/slow to be a solid singles threat from what I've seen thus far.

 

[Ffamran]

Terribly, because Pikachu is just a better version of MK (he out does MK in every department bar 5 jumps)
MK doesn't have good priority or kill power in the MU, his aerial game is too poor against Pika IMO.

Meta Knight's play style in this game sort of feels like a guerrila, air fighter who harasses you constantly before killing you, but the issue is that he doesn't do a lot of damage in contrast to Little Mac who does a ton of damage, but sucks in the air. They both need to keep pressure, but Little Mac doesn't need to hit and run so much like Meta Knight. He seems really good in team play, though, since he can go in deep off stage and screw people over, but Jigglypuff does that better since her Bair is freaking insane. Maybe even Kirby would do better since he has stronger attacks... Anyway, in 1v1 is an issue for Meta Knight since there's no one there to back him up

 

[Shaya]

MK's play style is banking it all on successfully dash grabbing the opponent as a punish/read at 50% or better consistency.
MK has virtually nothing to be afraid of at sub-mid range game play, so he has to work THAT hard to make his opponent's believe he can, so he can get dash grabs more often.

MK doesn't have out of shield options in this game and nothing he has is safe on shield: dash attack/grab are covering the same stuff [vertical options win], nair or shuttle loop OoS aren't ever really getting you anything but a smash attack to the face.

 

[Ffamran]

I just started messing around with the little puff-knight, so I don't know much about him and I don't see much of him being used. It's just, he's so fragile at times. You'd think his puffballness would absorb the hits, but nope... Oh well.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Sheik is really bad in FFA and All Star Mode. Like REALLY REALLY BAD.

it's funny just how bad she is on all-star when used by us and how ridiculous she is on the same mode used by the CPU (fast jab combo while charizard does a flare blitz? oh yeah. burst grenade being a kill move

In contrast, Ganondorf is amazing in pretty much every game mode except for 1v1.(and Smash Run, but nobody plays the 3DS version anymore)

ganondorf is good in smash run, but... amazing?

guy is strong, yeah, and considering a full-attack setup seems to be the best idea for the mode; he really will be wrecking foes left and right especially with the good range of his up air... but the problem is, he is slow, his attacks are slow, and his jump height/recovery is bad. this cripples him at exploring the maze but especially, it cripples his killing ability very early on when you don't have the jump/speed buffs to help him do his stuff.

i'd say efficiently being able to explore a bit of the maze and reach enemies during the earlgygame is THE most important thing in smash run, because you really need to get the stat bonus to be a wrecking ball as fast as possible.

compare to captain falcon (IMO the "diddy kong' of smash run), who isn't much weaker than ganondorf but can actually get through the maze much more efficiently thanks to better running speed, jump height, up-b and wall jump.

 

[Yonder]

I want to be good with MK...he's one of my favorite characters. He still at least has a great offstage game and recovery. Suck a predictable character around kill % though.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

iv seen very few aw inpiring meta knight plays in videos that make me feel that he has some untapped potential. but until it becomes more promenent i wont bother arging his status.

 

[Antonykun]

it's funny just how bad she is on all-star when used by us and how ridiculous she is on the same mode used by the CPU (fast jab combo while charizard does a flare blitz? oh yeah. burst grenade being a kill move


ganondorf is good in smash run, but... amazing?

guy is strong, yeah, and considering a full-attack setup seems to be the best idea for the mode; he really will be wrecking foes left and right especially with the good range of his up air... but the problem is, he is slow, his attacks are slow, and his jump height/recovery is bad. this cripples him at exploring the maze but especially, it cripples his killing ability very early on when you don't have the jump/speed buffs to help him do his stuff.

i'd say efficiently being able to explore a bit of the maze and reach enemies during the earlgygame is THE most important thing in smash run, because you really need to get the stat bonus to be a wrecking ball as fast as possible.

compare to captain falcon (IMO the "diddy kong' of smash run), who isn't much weaker than ganondorf but can actually get through the maze much more efficiently thanks to better running speed, jump height, up-b and wall jump.

Actually I find Jiggs to be the Diddy of Smash Run

 

[Tagxy]

Olimar is just hard to hit, and once you do hit him he falls out of combos easily compared to others. Pikmin toss forces pika to constantly react or slow down his fast pace game which is probably his biggest strength in this MU. His moveset does a good job covering the ground. At close range pika has a slight edge since hitting pikmin cancels their attacks and continue to hit olimar, but getting to that position is quite a task. Pika can land kill moves a bit safer and easier though.

His recovery is deceptively good, partly a result of his small size. I became frustrated since it seemed more or less to mirror villagers recovery but I later learned it has more mobility (near the end however I did learn his recovery had limitations in how it could be cancelled that may open it up to more edgeguard opportunity).

Olimar is definitely not a bad character, but he no longer has easy wins. He had nerfs in range and frame data, and mixed results on changes in his priority but it still solid in many other ways.


Aside from Mario's solid design, Mario's upsmash is perhaps the games best anti-air. Dont bother SH aerialing against mario if you arent reasonably certain it will hit.


Doesnt have a particularly hard time hitting or comboing pika and isnt particularly vulnerable to QA shenanigans. Id need to play this MU more to get more info but Peach and Olimar are the only characters Ive played so far that seem like the could be potential bad MUs.


Pikachu is better at starting offense on ness then the reverse, and their punishment games seems roughly the same in terms of strength. Grab kills are lame giving ness a reliable way to kill if he can land a grab, but pikachu isnt a slouch in that for this MU either.

I do think MK could be a bit tough for pikachu if both are going in, MK's dash attack and dash grab + punishes from grab are great and he can still remain relatively safe defensively. I think he could potentially struggle against a more campy style though.
@ Shaya OOS MK can dair for a guaranteed punish, but tyrant was doing shield drop > ftilt which seemed like it shouldnt work but it did.

 

[Nobie]

I think one thing to remember with Meta Knight is that while he's mainly a combo and gimping character, he also has a couple of very strong killing moves, albeit ones that require hard reads. Both forward smash and Dimensional Cape give him the potential to KO at relatively low percents, especially if rage is a factor, making him a threat at all times, even if it's a bit of a longshot.

 

[LiteralGrill]

PLEASE DON'T KILL ME FOR POSTING LISTS I PROMISE THEY HAVE RELEVANCE!!!​

How about instead of dumb voting, (I admit this month's poll was horrible, bad enough I may discontinue it since there's no good way to get data) we used some data to look at characters? According to data from Anther's Ladder (largest smash ladder online) this is what we're looking at. This is from all of the matches recorded there so while not exactly tournament play it's actually showing their use in serious matches. Real data on performance to look at. I can see there are probably some weird placements here an it still has issues, but it's still worth a look. HERE WE GO!!!

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Thoughts?

 

[Trifroze]

I think worldwide online play isn't much better of a system than voting, since the inability to do anything on reaction affects some characters much more than others. Rushdown/combo characters will have a much harder time than projectile heavy characters or heavy hitters, especially if we're talking about input lag more than 150-200ms.

Best bet is to just wait till Apex and make the list based on that as well as other tournaments while possibly theorizing on the ones who haven't had much representation.

 

[Antonykun]

PLEASE DON'T KILL ME FOR POSTING LISTS I PROMISE THEY HAVE RELEVANCE!!!​

How about instead of dumb voting, (I admit this month's poll was horrible, bad enough I may discontinue it since there's no good way to get data) we used some data to look at characters? According to data from Anther's Ladder (largest smash ladder online) this is what we're looking at. This is from all of the matches recorded there so while not exactly tournament play it's actually showing their use in serious matches. Real data on performance to look at. I can see there are probably some weird placements here an it still has issues, but it's still worth a look. HERE WE GO!!!

[collapse=Anther's Ladder Tier List]

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Thoughts?

well the top tiers are looking better but What the literal **** is Wario doing in 39?!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A few specific placements on that list have me quirking an eyebrow but a lot of our discussion here is theorycraft so it stands to reason that actual results may not match up 1:1.

Philosophical thought: Even though a tier list is supposed to reflect matchups at the highest level of play, when a game is so young that such a high level may not even exist yet for some characters, is it suitable to still assume such?

Also, is the ladder a customs-legal environment or not?

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

PLEASE DON'T KILL ME FOR POSTING LISTS I PROMISE THEY HAVE RELEVANCE!!!​

How about instead of dumb voting, (I admit this month's poll was horrible, bad enough I may discontinue it since there's no good way to get data) we used some data to look at characters? According to data from Anther's Ladder (largest smash ladder online) this is what we're looking at. This is from all of the matches recorded there so while not exactly tournament play it's actually showing their use in serious matches. Real data on performance to look at. I can see there are probably some weird placements here an it still has issues, but it's still worth a look. HERE WE GO!!!

[collapse=Anther's Ladder Tier List]

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Thoughts?

makes a lot more sense than the old one haha. But the trend for early tier lists still remains the same: 1-20 many can agree on, may need to mix and match them up a bit but the ones who are in the 1-20 spot are there for a reason (for now). As for all the other characters... it's just a jumbled up mess. Nobody will be able to agree on it. For instance, I find it insane and dumb that Link is 41st place, but that's because I'm a Link main and I'm good with Link. Olimar mains will be looking at this list in shock because they genuinely think their character is good. There's just so many characters... I find it hard to believe that the community as a whole will EVER agree on the 21-51 character placements.

 

[san.]

I just make conclusions based on my experience in high level play in past games and partially from this game. I'm not sure how the data was interpreted, but this wouldn't really balance for high level play with so few high level players, not even counting wifi.

Why do people feel that Mii Gunner is so below average?

 

[Antonykun]

makes a lot more sense than the old one haha. But the trend for early tier lists still remains the same: 1-20 many can agree on, may need to mix and match them up a bit but the ones who are in the 1-20 spot are there for a reason (for now). As for all the other characters... it's just a jumbled up mess. Nobody will be able to agree on it. For instance, I find it insane and dumb that Link is 41st place, but that's because I'm a Link main and I'm good with Link. Olimar mains will be looking at this list in shock because they genuinely think their character is good. There's just so many characters... I find it hard to believe that the community as a whole will EVER agree on the 21-51 character placements.

Well everyone agrees against Swordfighter T.T

 

[HeavyLobster]

PLEASE DON'T KILL ME FOR POSTING LISTS I PROMISE THEY HAVE RELEVANCE!!!​

How about instead of dumb voting, (I admit this month's poll was horrible, bad enough I may discontinue it since there's no good way to get data) we used some data to look at characters? According to data from Anther's Ladder (largest smash ladder online) this is what we're looking at. This is from all of the matches recorded there so while not exactly tournament play it's actually showing their use in serious matches. Real data on performance to look at. I can see there are probably some weird placements here an it still has issues, but it's still worth a look. HERE WE GO!!!

[collapse=Anther's Ladder Tier List]

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Thoughts?

It's not perfect and a bit shaky on the lower end, but it does line up reasonably well with the general consensus about different characters. There are a few outliers like Wario who are probably just not well represented, but it's no worse than any of the other tier lists we've got and is often a good bit better.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

All in all, its not bad. Yeah, there's some issues but all in all, nice effort.

On the whole lag thing, as a Puff player, lag suuuuuucks.

It really limits Puff a lot in her punishing and ability in neutral.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

Why do people feel that Mii Gunner is so below average?

Because hes not on For Glory.
I'll take Mii Questions for 400 Alex.

 

[M15t3R E]

All in all, its not bad. Yeah, there's some issues but all in all, nice effort.

On the whole lag thing, as a Puff player, lag suuuuuucks.

It really limits Puff a lot in her punishing and ability in neutral.

This is why tier lists are constructed from data from in-person tournaments. But I don't take (much) issue with this tier list. Then again, the game is still new and I have yet to fight the majority of the cast with my respective characters.

 

[san.]

Because hes not on For Glory.
I'll take Mii Questions for 400 Alex.

Well, I'm speaking of in-person, too. It doesn't take rocket science to see that he has good attacks and movement.

 

[oldkingcroz]

I dunno about that tier list. I just feel that the layout makes Diddy/Sheik/etc look way better than they really are. Sure they are strong characters, but that doesn't mean that a good Samus can't beat a good Shiek. Or a Game and Watch can't beat a good Diddy. Both of which are pretty plausible.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I just make conclusions based on my experience in high level play in past games and partially from this game. I'm not sure how the data was interpreted, but this wouldn't really balance for high level play with so few high level players, not even counting wifi.

Why do people feel that Mii Gunner is so below average?

If no high level players exist for a given character, is it really fair to put them in high tier based strictly on theory with no results to back them up? Honest question.

 

[Makorel]

Best bet is to just wait till Apex and make the list based on that as well as other tournaments while possibly theorizing on the ones who haven't had much representation.

I heard once that other fighting games don't use tournament results at all when determining tiers. Curious in how tier lists in general are made, my googling brought me to this:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/641697-persona-4-arena/63725963/712954427

It actually had an answer to ParanoidDrone's philisophical thought. According to the poster of this topic the answer to that question is

Skill has no impact. Both players are assumed to be mid-to-high, and equal to one another.

Anyway to go back to the tournament results thing, it seems to me that what really matters in tiers are the tools that the character has to beat their opponent, not necessarily how well they do in tournaments. Ganondorf has no good options to approach Robin, who can harm Ganondorf from a distance, which means Ganondorf has an unfavorable match up which contributes to him being lower on the tier list. If a Ganondorf beats a Robin in a tournament that doesn't change the fact that Ganondorf doesn't have the tools he needs to beat Robin more than Robin can beat Ganondorf if both players are evenly matched. Conversely, everyone says Pikachu is good but if no Pikachu players or no good Pikachu players are at Apex then clearly he must be low tier right?

Although I will say that tournaments can be useful to tier lists to show people something they were missing in a character, like how aMSa brought Yoshi up three places in Melee due to the egg shenanigans everyone had been unaware of for about a decade.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Makorel good post, but my issue is this:

If no mid-to-high level players exist for a character, how can we know what mid-to-high level play looks like? For a lot of the newcomers, Miis in particular since you can't use them in FG and thus have next to no exposure, I'm not completely convinced we have enough of a baseline to work with when judging power levels. I notice that the "solidified" newcomers where there's something resembling consensus are the ones that have already had their moments of fame and exposure: Rosalina, Brawler, Little Mac, Mega Man and Shulk to a degree. But do we know what does and doesn't work when using, say, Duck Hunt?

Also Persona 4 Arena whooo. Elizabeth represent.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Didn't ZSS barely change after Salem's Apex 2013 victory?

Although I will say that tournaments can be useful to tier lists to show people something they were missing in a character, like how aMSa brought Yoshi up three places in Melee due to the egg shenanigans everyone had been unaware of for about a decade.

The last update was after Evo 2013, before aMSa really took off. Also there were Yoshi mains placing well before him.

However, at Evo Wobbles took 2nd with Ice Climbers, which is arguably part of their official acceptance in Melee's top tier (spacies, sheik, Marth, puff, peach, falcon, ICS), so there's that

 

[Makorel]

The last update was after Evo 2013, before aMSa really took off. Also there were Yoshi mains placing well before him.

My mistake. I assumed and I guess I know what that makes me.

Edit-to-avoid-double-post: @ ParanoidDrone that's a good question and I'm not certain I have an answer for it. If from this moment onward no one used Duck Hunt ever again how would we quantify how good they are? I think it would probably come down to pure theory and analyzing just what Duck Hunt's moveset is for and how well their game plan works against the rest of the cast.

 

[mimgrim]

The thing about Diddy invading her place is that Lloyd temporarily shuts down Diddy's ground game with Lloyd as long as Lloyd is out Diddy has to block,jump,or roll to deal with it. From what I heard Diddy's air mobility is bad so if he's in the air he has to commit and Villager can capitalize off it.

I will admit I'm theory crafting right now and the only Diddy vs Villager i saw was Zero vs Salem and that video is really dubious in my eyes.

Gyroid is a rather laggy move and Diddy has the ground speed to run in and hit you while you are still in the animation. Also Diddy doesn't have to commit if he jumps to avoid Gyroid as he could easily jump over it then fast fall back to the ground, it still puts him into a worse situation than before (which is important) but it isn't that bad for him. You have to be extremely careful when using Gyroid against characters that are fast enough to get in on you while you are sending it out.

What do y'all think about ZSS? I just picked her up, and played her in Brawl. She's a LOT different now, but still really good.

All I know is that I really hate fighting against her in this game.

 

[Trifroze]

I heard once that other fighting games don't use tournament results at all when determining tiers. Curious in how tier lists in general are made, my googling brought me to this:

http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/641697-persona-4-arena/63725963/712954427

Anyway to go back to the tournament results thing, it seems to me that what really matters in tiers are the tools that the character has to beat their opponent, not necessarily how well they do in tournaments. Ganondorf has no good options to approach Robin, who can harm Ganondorf from a distance, which means Ganondorf has an unfavorable match up which contributes to him being lower on the tier list. If a Ganondorf beats a Robin in a tournament that doesn't change the fact that Ganondorf doesn't have the tools he needs to beat Robin more than Robin can beat Ganondorf if both players are evenly matched. Conversely, everyone says Pikachu is good but if no Pikachu players or no good Pikachu players are at Apex then clearly he must be low tier right?

Although I will say that tournaments can be useful to tier lists to show people something they were missing in a character, like how aMSa brought Yoshi up three places in Melee due to the egg shenanigans everyone had been unaware of for about a decade.

The main problem with theory only is that it's trying to measure humanly unmeasurable variables and thus will most of the time be proven wrong through practical scenarios. You generally won't find two different people in the FGC who agree on more than a handful of characters regarding their tier list placing because of the way tier lists are usually made.

If Robin is said to shut Ganondorf down but a Ganondorf beats Robin at a tournament, we shouldn't instantly come to the conclusion that Ganondorf is better, but what we should do is rethink the matchup. Did the Robin player make a mistake or was he on a lower level than his opponent? If this isn't the obvious answer, then chances are we may have overlooked something regarding the matchup.

Theory alone won't do much, and neither will tournament results. You need to constantly re-theorize and challenge that theory with results and tournament footage to make a functioning tier list, and all the speculation here is a part of the initial process. Voted lists and lists based strictly on results are just an impatient way to come up with answers before we really have them.

 

[Yonder]

Aside from Mario's solid design, Mario's upsmash is perhaps the games best anti-air. Dont bother SH aerialing against mario if you arent reasonably certain it will hit.

I'd argue Bowser has a better Anti Air myself in the form of his U Smash. More range, more power, works in a similar function. I never want to try and compete against it.

Anyways, what are people's thoughts on WFT? Cause my opinion of her is falling again. I once said she was the worst way back and it's starting to replace Doc as my personal worst again. The only deadly tools of WFT is Sun Salutation...err, bair maybe. She's just so average everywhere [Smashes are powerful, but pitiful range]. Soccer ball isn't a great projectile. Deep breathing is pretty stupid as you usually use that time to charge a Sun Salutation anyways. Recovery is fine, mobility is great. Also jab is fantastic at higher percentages with the burying effect. But those hitboxes are bar none the absolute worst in game, and it's crippling. They make MK's look god like. I can't count the number of times I've whiffed right next to an opponent on a critical punish or trying to space myself, only to fly over their head with WFT's arm or something. Oh, and the awful grab. The grab that goes over characters like Kirby and probably has the worse range in game...next to Kirby. Dash grab doesn't help for range much. She hardly has any guanteed damage either, I think she might on her U throw to U smash, but the window is tight. Compare that to a character like Diddy or Luigi, who had guaranteed damage all around the board from a throw. Her meteors on her dair and headbutt are ok...butI'm just not feeling her at all. If she's not the worst, she's a definite low tier. I got pretty chewed out after I called WFT the worst before, so I'm guessing I will again. I've at least seen Doc do a few impressive things. If her hitboxes were improved she could at least be dead bottom middle.

Pros:

Sun Salutation
Mobility
Jab
Crawl is the lowest in game [and hilarious to boot]

Cons:

Hitboxes. Hitboxes hitboxes hitboxes.
Range
Grab
Killing power sans smash reliant on deep breathing.


Edit: Oh, Luigi is getting pretty darn overrated...I cannot believe it actually said that for the first time in Smash history. He's a top 15 at most.

 

[Luigi player]

I wonder why Pika is not seeing more play, I see him at Sheik and DDK's level now, or he's the closest to them at least. He's probably just harder to play.

I'm not that sure, maybe a combination of difficulty to use and just not liked that much as a character (be it playstyle or the character itself)?

Pikachu was very good in all Smash games (maybe Melee is arguable, but Axe is doing great with it), but it doesn't see much use in any of them, except for maybe Smash 64.

Most people who want to place well and are choosing their main from the tierlist just go for (what is believed to be) the best character and not so often the ones below. Sometimes people go for easy to use ones or 2nd best characters when it's not 100% certain who even is the best.

 

[Real Smooth-Like]

I'm not that sure, maybe a combination of difficulty to use and just not liked that much as a character (be it playstyle or the character itself)?

Pikachu was very good in all Smash games (maybe Melee is arguable, but Axe is doing great with it), but it doesn't see much use in any of them, except for maybe Smash 64.

Most people who want to place well and are choosing their main from the tierlist just go for (what is believed to be) the best character and not so often the ones below. Sometimes people go for easy to use ones or 2nd best characters when it's not 100% certain who even is the best.

I'm curious what's so difficult about Pikachu? I'm also baffled as to why he hasn't been seeing THAT much play. He was the first character I played when I got the game and he felt so natural and right. Like an ideal character. He doesn't seem over powered but his pros really accentuate and fit his playstyle.

 

[Yonder]

I'm not that sure, maybe a combination of difficulty to use and just not liked that much as a character (be it playstyle or the character itself)?

Pikachu was very good in all Smash games (maybe Melee is arguable, but Axe is doing great with it), but it doesn't see much use in any of them, except for maybe Smash 64.

Most people who want to place well and are choosing their main from the tierlist just go for (what is believed to be) the best character and not so often the ones below. Sometimes people go for easy to use ones or 2nd best characters when it's not 100% certain who even is the best.

Pikachu is always a late bloomer. He's going to see a TON of play soon. Only thing he can't do is kill...that's it.

I can't vouch anything for Pikachu though. Just videos and through versing him. I have a total of 3 KOS with him!

 

[Lavani]

Oh, and the awful grab. The grab that goes over characters like Kirby and probably has the worse range in game...next to Kirby.

Kirby's grab is actually surprisingly good. Comes out frame 6 and has deceptive range. His pivot grab range is comparable to Palutena's.

WFT's grab is godawful though, yes.