Character Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

You know, I feel as if Rosalina is overrated as a character. Sure, she's good and all, but most of her attacks do jack squat in damage and knockback, and almost all of her aerials are absolute rubbish; her U-Air and B-Air are the only decent ones, as her F-Air is weak and her N-Air is next to useless due to it acting like a second, slower B-Air. I've never even gotten a meteor off of her D-Air, and the attacks do so little damage, especially with Rosalina only.

I feel as the game progresses, people will not consider her "broken", nor will people really consider Sheik broken either. It's just initial reaction and people's minds that make them think they truly are top tier. This is coming from a guy who knows Rosalina and (to more of an extent) Sheik very well.

 

[NairWizard]

You know, I feel as if Rosalina is overrated as a character. Sure, she's good and all, but most of her attacks do jack squat in damage and knockback, and almost all of her aerials are absolute rubbish; her U-Air and B-Air are the only decent ones, as her F-Air is weak and her N-Air is next to useless due to it acting like a second, slower B-Air. I've never even gotten a meteor off of her D-Air, and the attacks do so little damage, especially with Rosalina only.

I feel as the game progresses, people will not consider her "broken", nor will people really consider Sheik broken either. It's just initial reaction and people's minds that make them think they truly are top tier. This is coming from a guy who knows Rosalina and (to more of an extent) Sheik very well.

The input lag on Rosalina's n-air is outweighed by its radical hitbox spread, which is far better than that of b-air (n-air has a hitbox above her, too). Also, you're forgetting that her aerials are used by Luma too: Rosalina's n-air is probably Luma's best aerial. D-air is awesome because of the disjoint, not for the meteor. It's a good landing option.

 

[Dabuz]

Nah Rosa is pretty overrated

 

[Rockaphin]

Villager could use less lag on his grab. Gosh, I feel like a sitting duck after missing with that.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Villager is one of the last characters that needs buffs... no... just no.

 

[Rockaphin]

Villager is one of the last characters that needs buffs... no... just no.

Honestly, I didn't think Villager was that good. I've mostly just been hearing about Timber Counter, not too much else. I will agree that other's would need some buffs before him/her.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

buff D3 plz

Smooth Criminal

 

[NairWizard]

Nah Rosa is pretty overrated

I actually can't tell if you're serious, but I agree with the statement's face value.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Honestly, I didn't think Villager was that good. I've mostly just been hearing about Timber Counter, not too much else. I will agree that other's would need some buffs before him/her.

I probably have more experience against Villager than any other character thus far... Villager is VERY good and he'll only get better once the Wii U version comes out and players can perform retreating Fair/Bairs easier.

It's understandable to want your main to get buffed but it's important for the developers and us players to put our bias aside and focus on the characters that actually need them. Villager is not one of those characters.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Both Rosalina and Sheik are overrated. Yoshi needs buffs. Super armor on every single one of his moves that does the same amount as his Dair sounds good enough.

 

[Shaya]

Nah Rosa is pretty overrated

Yeah, probably loses to Sheik, GG. Needs a lot of buffs otherwise you're giving up soon, right?

It's understandable to want your main to get buffed but it's important for the developers and us players to put our bias aside and focus on the characters that actually need them. Villager is not one of those characters.

Can't go over this enough. While some quality of life tweaks here and there would be amazing (on just about everyone, even top tiers probably deserve them in some cases), there are so many characters that just don't seem to have any notable competitive strengths to them, or just flow/work so poorly that they generally feel awful to use (personally the only characters I think are this 'poor' are ); it looks like more things are coming in than just 4 characters worth though.

A few weeks ago I was all doomsday about if any game patches came in I'd "riot"/quit, but eh, this one isn't scaring me too much thus far.
We'll see what happens. The moment we do we can start going HAM on figuring out design philosophies on changes and then with pure-logic discern possible future changes. Until then I ultimately feel like a dirty speculator scum.

 

[Dabuz]

Yeah, probably loses to Sheik, GG. Needs a lot of buffs otherwise you're giving up soon, right?

Along with other characters

On the topic of really bad characters though, the only ones which obviously could stand to get some improvements are Kirby, Bowser JR., Ganon, Ike, Dr. Mario, and Olimar.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Like I said, all Doc needs is better run speed and he becomes scary.

 

[Shaya]

Along with other characters

Greninja? Loses to sheik. needs buffs. sending physical violence threats to NoJ for removing landing lag cancels. #ESportsSocialMediaSmashDrama
Robin? Loses to sheik. Needs a lot of buffs.
Yoshi? Loses to sheik. Needs super armor on everything
Mac? Beats sheik on for glory global stats. Please don't take away all my super armor #_#
Diddy? Loses to sheik. Please give back two bananas, if not a third. Monkey Flip is spot dodgeable, please make it kill people for spot dodging.
Sheik? Loses to Macs on wifi and has to get bowser to 240% before they die. Please moar kill power and easier DACUS - Denti.
Marth? Loses to sheik. Wouldn't mind an auto cancel or two added to the character, but that's okay, no rush~ *calm, collected, legit*
All the Miis? No match up data available, must be even. Needs nerfs because logic.
Ganon? Loses to Sheik at hard counter levels for the third game in a row. "Wouldn't mind a more pronounced beard on his model".

 

[Signia]

Theory exercises like this do have value, regardless of your (in)ability to understand such.

"lol what if everyone did double damage"

That's some gamefaqs ****. You call that theory? Yall are doing it wrong.

Then again, any theoretical discussion will be lacking, due to lack of data. That's what's needed right now.

We could be collecting data and makings lists and rankings instead of posting our feelings day after day. Up to you guys tho

 

[Yonder]

Outside of a clear glitch, I think that a character must win a (Nintendo-sponsored) tournament in order to get enough attention from Nintendo to receive a balance-patch nerf. Zero won with ZSS, and apparently some of ZSS' moves were nerfed going from the invitational version to the final version. Dabuz won with Rosalina, and now Rosalina is being nerfed? Seems suspiciously coincidental to me.

If that's so...what do low tiers have to do to get attention from Nintendo and get buffed? [All I can think of is looking at conquest stats]

 

[NairWizard]

People are talking about Pikachu and Sonic being bad design and I just think wait, what? Did you forget Sheik? You can shield Sonic and Pikachu's distance approaches. Shield does jack all vs. Sheik, my choice for most obnoxiously designed character in the game. Low commitment moves that she can spam and a projectile that means that she doesn't even have to not commit if she doesn't want to. Risk-reward is the essence of fighting games. Where is the risk-reward with Sheik? What is she risking?

I don't think that this character is OP just for what it's worth; I just think that Sheik is silly.

 

[A2ZOMG]

If that's so...what do low tiers have to do to get attention from Nintendo and get buffed? [All I can think of is looking at conquest stats]

Well, at the very least, I would suggest people communicating very clearly about character strengths and weaknesses. There's no guarantee Nintendo actually will listen, but it's still better than nothing.

A thread like this is practical, should a Nintendo representative ever get curious.

People are talking about Pikachu and Sonic being bad design and I just think wait, what? Did you forget Sheik? You can shield Sonic and Pikachu's distance approaches. Shield does jack all vs. Sheik, my choice for most obnoxiously designed character in the game. Low commitment moves that she can spam and a projectile that means that she doesn't even have to not commit if she doesn't want to. Risk-reward is the essence of fighting games. Where is the risk-reward with Sheik? What is she risking?

I don't think that this character is OP just for what it's worth; I just think that Sheik is silly.

Sheik is pretty lame by design, agreed, but she actually plays the game semi-conventionally and has to play footsies and doesn't get out of traps completely free.

Sonic and Pikachu...completely disrespect footsies and traps for the most part. When you play against them, you're not playing Smash Bros anymore. You're just guessing and hoping they run into things.

 

[InfinityCollision]

People are talking about Pikachu and Sonic being bad design and I just think wait, what? Did you forget Sheik? You can shield Sonic and Pikachu's distance approaches. Shield does jack all vs. Sheik, my choice for most obnoxiously designed character in the game. Low commitment moves that she can spam and a projectile that means that she doesn't even have to not commit if she doesn't want to. Risk-reward is the essence of fighting games. Where is the risk-reward with Sheik? What is she risking?

I don't think that this character is OP just for what it's worth; I just think that Sheik is silly.

Sheik is clearly silly, just not in the same way as the aforementioned and their equally appalling brethren. But yes, for a character that's clearly supposed to play a very aggressive game she is incredibly noncommittal and low-risk.

 

[TunaAndBacon]

Both Rosalina and Sheik are overrated. Yoshi needs buffs. Super armor on every single one of his moves that does the same amount as his Dair sounds good enough.

Egg toss has a 1/5 chance of throwing a stitch face.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Sonic and Pikachu...completely disrespect footsies and traps for the most part. When you play against them, you're not playing Smash Bros anymore. You're just guessing and hoping they run into things.

So damn true. So far my "super pro super difficult anti-Sonic meta" involves throwing out random Nairs, tilts, Rock Smashes, and Flamethrowers from mid/long range with hopes that the opponent will run into them, which is basically the MU in a nutshell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2589Wnx3E4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2Ie662pShY

 

[A2ZOMG]

So damn true. So far my "super pro super difficult anti-Sonic meta" involves throwing out random Nairs, tilts, Rock Smashes, and Flamethrowers from mid/long range with hopes that the opponent will run into them, which is basically the MU in a nutshell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2589Wnx3E4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2Ie662pShY

Watching this gave me cancer. UGGGH.

I'd like to know who thought it was a smart idea to make characters who simultaneously can't be trapped AND ignore neutral like nothing. Zelda gets out of traps for free, but at least actually has to work hard in neutral. Little Mac bodies practically everyone in neutral, but he DIES to traps almost instantly. These are extreme, but strategically fair designs.

Then you have Sonic and Pikachu...yeah like...these characters don't deserve to be competitive from a design perspective.

 

[Espy Rose]

You two are so cute.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I see nothing wrong in those videos.

 

[Kofu]

I probably have more experience against Villager than any other character thus far... Villager is VERY good and he'll only get better once the Wii U version comes out and players can perform retreating Fair/Bairs easier.

It's understandable to want your main to get buffed but it's important for the developers and us players to put our bias aside and focus on the characters that actually need them. Villager is not one of those characters.

I don't personally think Villager needs buffs (although a less crappy grab, at least in activation speed, would be nice...) but where do you think Villager stands in relation to other characters? With and without Timber Counter, mind; the move completely changes how he's played. FAir and BAir are great, but if you're really spacing them properly it's chip damage at best, damage that the heavies that the moves work best on can deal back to Villager in a single blow. His ground game is a little underwhelming, too, and certain reflectors shut him down hard. Personally I think Villager will have some of the most polarizing matchups in the game, as well as some outliers where he struggles, or at least doesn't dominate, against a few of the weaker characters, compared to the other top/high tiers.

When you play against them, you're not playing Smash Bros anymore. You're just guessing and hoping they run into things.

That's how I play all the time.

 

[Jabejazz]

Character Competitive Impressions?

More like : What buffs does my character need to be competitively viable?

I suppose that in a way, by saying what needs to be buffed, we point out weaknesses in our characters, but yeah.

#TripleDBrawlGrabRange

So damn true. So far my "super pro super difficult anti-Sonic meta" involves throwing out random Nairs, tilts, Rock Smashes, and Flamethrowers from mid/long range with hopes that the opponent will run into them, which is basically the MU in a nutshell.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2589Wnx3E4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2Ie662pShY

Pretty much. Vs Sonic as a character with a poor (read : nonexistant) projectile game and sub-par mobility, every move needs to be a hard read (more like crapshoots, but hey, mindgames bruh).

 

[Nabbitnator]

before they decide to buff characters, they need to make rolls punishable and make it so you cant cancel air dodge into air dodge as some characters can abuse it. You know you can punish it but the risk/reward is janked up. It would indirectly buff some lower tiered characters and some of the top tiers though.

 

[Radical Larry]

Rosalina is only good with her Luma, though her F-Smash is the only thing good about her when Luma is gone. Rosalina is that type of character that I feel is very, very easy to predict. Sure, others might have different opinions, but I now really think that she's not top tier. High Tier, maybe, but not top tier. There are characters (like Link, as my example) who can counter her.

Same goes with Sheik; she seems menacing with her aerials, speed and grabs, but her ground game is awful with her low damage per ground hit, her Burst Grenade is very predictable (though useful for baiting) and her four good kill moves are Bouncing Fish, U-Smash, F-Air and U-Air. But because grabs in the game are similar to attacks, meaning more knockback the more damage, an opponent can simply jump away from her impromptu U-Air or B-Air and parry. Do I think she's top tier, yes, but do I think she's the best? Absolutely not.

I would also like to state that with the patches and inclusion of Mewtwo next year, it will be a long, long time before we make a definitive tier list; and if things keep going the way they are, as in more DLC characters, stages and patches, there cannot be a tier list, because the Metagame would constantly be changing around and around, thus nearly making it impossible for tier lists to exist in this game.

 

[The Real Gamer]

You two are so cute.

Thanks bby.

I don't personally think Villager needs buffs (although a less crappy grab, at least in activation speed, would be nice...) but where do you think Villager stands in relation to other characters? With and without Timber Counter, mind; the move completely changes how he's played. FAir and BAir are great, but if you're really spacing them properly it's chip damage at best, damage that the heavies that the moves work best on can deal back to Villager in a single blow. His ground game is a little underwhelming, too, and certain reflectors shut him down hard. Personally I think Villager will have some of the most polarizing matchups in the game, as well as some outliers where he struggles, or at least doesn't dominate, against a few of the weaker characters, compared to the other top/high tiers.

Well Villager (unlike a lot of the top tiers) has very exploitable weaknesses that are much more noticeable when he's on the ground so naturally he's going to struggle in a few MUs, but that doesn't take away from the fact that he's VERY good at what he does: counter-zoning, setting up traps, and dominating from midrange. His damage output is fairly mediocre but this is pretty negligable when he has some of the best stage control in the game thanks to his aerials and specials. From midrange his Slingshot alone shuts down the majority of Zard's approach options since it comes out so fast and covers so much space in front of him. The Rocket harasses Zard from longrange and forces Zard to approach by either shielding it, rolling around it, or jumping over it. Guess which option safely covers all of that? The Slingshot. Then if you do manage to get in he isn't completely helpless since his Nair OoS comes out faster than anything Zard can throw out at him (other than a well timed Fly I think but that **** is risky) and is a relatively safe option since he can follow it up with a Rocket, another Nair, or... Slingshot. Dair is another nice shield poke since it's disjointed and can also follow that up with whatever. Then if you throw Timber Counter into the mix it's pretty easy to see how scary this character is to properly approach. He shuts down most of Zard's options while having safe answers to whatever remaining options Zard actually has. He's like the ultimate trap master.

Now of course this is all MU specific but I can easily see a lot of other characters struggling similarly if they don't have a reliable answer to Villager's midrange harassment. Quite a few of the top tiers and others with reflectors seem to have ways around it which will likely keep him out of the top 5 but for those that don't? They'll probably get ****ed up pretty hard.

I feel like he's a lot like Little Mac; very noticeable weaknesses but he's just so damn good at what he specializes in I don't see him dropping any lower than top 15. Villager is scary.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Can someone please tell me how 5 seconds of extra Luma downtime makes Rosalina not a top tier?

I mean, its bad and all for her, but its five seconds... I just don't see how that makes that much of an impact on her viability.

 

[Thinkaman]

Can someone please tell me how 5 seconds of extra Luma downtime makes Rosalina not a top tier?

I mean, its bad and all for her, but its five seconds... I just don't see how that makes that much of an impact on her viability.

It's a full 62.5% increase in her vulnerability window.

It's a little worse than linear though, for Rosalina. If you do succeed in getting her into a juggle, it's not unlikely that Luma will get gimped on spawn upon returning. This is slightly more likely to happen now.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can someone please tell me how 5 seconds of extra Luma downtime makes Rosalina not a top tier?

I mean, its bad and all for her, but its five seconds... I just don't see how that makes that much of an impact on her viability.

It increases the reward for killing off Luma, which also indirectly incentivises people to do so in the first place. Running the numbers, 5 extra seconds is a 62.5% increase in respawn time, hardly insignificant. Rosalina can still play defense and stall the timer out if she absolutely has to for whatever reason, but the extra time means extra chances for her to screw up and get hit.

Honestly of all the things they could have done to nerf her this is one of the most elegant.

'd

 

[KlefkiHolder]

It's a full 62.5% increase in her vulnerability window.

It's a little worse than linear though, for Rosalina. If you do succeed in getting her into a juggle, it's not unlikely that Luma will get gimped on spawn upon returning. This is slightly more likely to happen now.

Ahh, okay. I understand the second part.

The thing is that even though its a 63% increase in respawn time, its still only five seconds. The percentage seems worse than the application, imo.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Ahh, okay. I understand the second part.

The thing is that even though its a 63% increase in respawn time, its still only five seconds. The percentage seems worse than the application, imo.

Well if (hypothetically) you're able to kill Luma on average of 5 times a match that's an extra 25 seconds you have to take advantage of SoloRosa, which is significant.

 

[Jabejazz]

Add all the times a Luma is knocked out on average in a game.
Multiply that number with the new respawn duration.
Compare that time with the average time of a game.

It gets pretty significant.

ninjapls

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Well if (hypothetically) you're able to kill Luma on average of 5 times a match that's an extra 25 seconds you have to take advantage of SoloRosa, which is significant.

True, true.

I still don't see it making much of a difference unless you're playing a heavy rushdown character/style though.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. BTW, I'm happy about this change, I feel its necessary, I'm just cautious about spelling doom for Rose.

 

[Terotrous]

There's no question that the Luma respawn time nerf matters, though I don't think it's enough to make her not top tier. It'll force Rosalinas to be more precise in how they use Luma, but it positioned properly Rosalina should be able to punish people who attack Luma while she is idle. If you can ensure that you're getting at least some damage every time your Luma is out there you should still come out ahead.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

True, true.

I still don't see it making much of a difference unless you're playing a heavy rushdown character/style though.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see. BTW, I'm happy about this change, I feel its necessary, I'm just cautious about spelling doom for Rose.

That's because it's not doom for Rosalina, it's just some of her supporters gnashing their teeth and/or her detractors wishing she could be taken down a few pegs.

 

[Thinkaman]

How good of a character do you guys think Rosalina is without Luma, full-stop?

I don't think she's awful, but her limited good moves + lack of a projectile or reflector + low weight + floatiness + huge size doom her to bottom 5 imo. She seems on par with Olimar.

(Note that Rosalina-with-no-Luma is not the same as Rosalina-with-Luma-dead-and-respawning, the latter of which always forces the opponent to approach her, dramatically changing the calculus.)

 

[Terotrous]

How good of a character do you guys think Rosalina is without Luma, full-stop?

I don't think she's awful, but her limited good moves + lack of a projectile or reflector + low weight + floatiness + huge size doom her to bottom 5 imo. She seems on par with Olimar.

I would say lower mid or low. She still has pretty solid hitboxes and damage output. Obviously, the fact that she only has 2 B moves is a big problem, she's now forced to approach vs most characters, and some of them will be able to wall her out, but once she gets close she can do okay thanks to solid aerials and tilts. Honestly I still think she's much better than Olimar and some of the other bad characters, who just have a terrible neutral game regardless of where they are relative to the opponent.


Alternatively, if we assume she can still do Luma Shot and Star Bits, but Luma simply disappears after use, then upper mid. This removes most of her approaching problems and allows her solid fundamentals to shine through. She wouldn't be quite as good as some of the characters in high, but she still has an edge on much of the cast.