Character Competitive Impressions

[Thinkaman]

Best recoveries in this game:

I think Peach and Samus are too slow to qualify for this list, however safe.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think Peach and Samus are too slow to qualify for this list, however safe.

Maybe. At the very least though, it's very difficult to edgeguard them without very specific tools.

Now while Pikachu hands down has the best edgeguarding in the game in terms of options covered reliably (probably absolutely nobody except Zelda is safe from his edgeguarding if he does it right), probably the most lethal edgeguarders are Ganondorf and Marth. These characters basically can kill you really easily if they touch you offstage.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wario has a great recovery and he's good at edgeguarding too.

 

[SonicZeroX]

I have no idea how anyone is supposed to edge guard Shiek because she seems to be invincible for the entire duration of her up B. Before you could just edgehog her and force her on the stage but now that's not an option anymore.

 

[HiNiTe]

I have no idea how anyone is supposed to edge guard Shiek because she seems to be invincible for the entire duration of her up B. Before you could just edgehog her and force her on the stage but now that's not an option anymore.

Whether she's invincible the whole duration or not, the vanishing hitbox was enlarged and she now has a windbox on her reappearance, getting in on her when there's cooldown is almost impossible.

 

[sunset_raven]

AFAIK, to edge guard Sheik, you'd have to go pretty deep, and hit her before she uses her recovery move. Her recovery moves her an ok distance, with lots of invincible frames, but there are characters that can follow her all the way.

Btw, Jiggs is also a good edge guarder, IMO.

 

[gameprodigy12]

I understand opinions change over time yada yada, but I'll leave a relevant summary here of soloRosa that I wrote a while back.

Interesting side note: I think I underrated back then how amazing n-air is on shield block against characters with slow pummels/pummels that don't hit Luma, or throws without hitboxes that knock Luma away. (Poor villager ) Given these conditions, you can simply land on their shield and press A to hit them out of a grab with Luma, and potentially rapid-jab -> combo into a Rosalina upsmash. Needs more exploring. Obviously, this doesn't apply to soloRosa.

The problem with this though is that Rosalina on her own is still really good least low high tier. She only loses star bits and luma shot which is a slight disadvantage for her, but the rest if her can handle anything else. All the weaknesses you mentioned in the end don't matter cause they are more than likely overexaggerated. She on her own is very good where she lies in ow high tier at least.

 

[gameprodigy12]

How good of a character do you guys think Rosalina is without Luma, full-stop?

I don't think she's awful, but her limited good moves + lack of a projectile or reflector + low weight + floatiness + huge size doom her to bottom 5 imo. She seems on par with Olimar.

(Note that Rosalina-with-no-Luma is not the same as Rosalina-with-Luma-dead-and-respawning, the latter of which always forces the opponent to approach her, dramatically changing the calculus.)

She would still be high tier since her size weight and floatiness hasn't stopped her before. High tier still I see at most and very low high at least.

 

[DanGR]

I didn't exaggerate anything.

 

[gameprodigy12]

I didn't exaggerate anything.

Kinda did, on her own she's still really good.

 

[PK Gaming]

Kinda did, on her own she's still really good.

Care to substantiate that claim?

 

[NairWizard]

The problem with this though is that Rosalina on her own is still really good least low high tier. She only loses star bits and luma shot which is a slight disadvantage for her, but the rest if her can handle anything else. All the weaknesses you mentioned in the end don't matter cause they are more than likely overexaggerated. She on her own is very good where she lies in ow high tier at least.

You're going to have to provide some justification for this claim, because as far as everyone here can tell, Solo Rosalina is bottom tier. I can't think of a character worse than Rosalina without Luma. No kill power, no damage, no projectile, no safety on shield (all her aerials are shielded easily), and no safety on her attacks (with Luma she can d-smash to d-tilt and most people can't do anything because of the extra hitboxes provided by Luma; can't do this without Luma). Even her recovery is pretty poor, and she has two entirely useless specials. She's almost obviously the worst character in the game without Luma. The timeout is very significant (see the stats I posted earlier for a rundown of how much 5 extra seconds actually means).

Accidentally quoted my post above. Disregard this one.

 

[gameprodigy12]

Care to substantiate that claim?

Looking at his summary I see a lot of things that are exaggerated but at least are true. However again exaggerated and saying SoloRosa is like a low tier character is not really true.

You're going to have to provide some justification for this claim, because as far as everyone here can tell, Solo Rosalina is bottom tier. I can't think of a character worse than Rosalina without Luma. No kill power, no damage, no projectile, no safety on shield (all her aerials are shielded easily), and no safety on her attacks (with Luma she can d-smash to d-tilt and most people can't do anything because of the extra hitboxes provided by Luma; can't do this without Luma). Even her recovery is pretty poor, and she has two entirely useless specials. I actually think that she's the worst character in the game without Luma. The timeout is very significant (see the stats I posted earlier for a rundown of how much 5 extra seconds actually means).

not really true, she does have kill power with certain smash attacks, has safety on shield, and that combo doesn't work without luma yes, but she is still good. Her recovery isn't poor at all and her two specials that are not worthless. GP is situational but really good and Starbits is only worthless without luma, same for luma shot. But her overall character is still good regardless of such.

 

[NairWizard]

not really true

No one is obligated to buy your defense of your favorite character without evidence or a new perspective. You are the one challenging the status quo: the burden of proof is on you.

Forget Sheik/Diddy/Yoshi/etc. What does solo Rosalina do against Ganon, Ike, or Charizard? What does she do against *Olimar*?

 

[meleebrawler]

I just hope that when people realize patches are a thing
in Smash now, they won't just react to their favorite character
being low on tier lists or whatnot by whining for patches to their character.

 

[gameprodigy12]

No one is obligated to buy your defense of your favorite character without evidence or a new perspective. You are the one challenging the status quo: the burden of proof is on you.

Forget Sheik/Diddy/Yoshi/etc. What does solo Rosalina do against Ganon, Ike, or Charizard? What does she do against *Olimar*?

Read above, I had to edit it out, but otherwise believe what you believe it's still opinions at this point but this is not fact.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

No one is obligated to buy your defense of your favorite character without evidence or a new perspective. You are the one challenging the status quo: the burden of proof is on you.

Forget Sheik/Diddy/Yoshi/etc. What does solo Rosalina do against Ganon, Ike, or Charizard? What does she do against *Olimar*?

Or D3, for that matter.

Smooth Criminal

 

[RWB]

KO PERCENTAGES

Forward smash (uncharged):

102% - Start position without Luma
88% - Start position with Luma
113% - Center with Luma
125% - Center without Luma

Up smash (uncharged):

104% - with Luma
119% - without Luma

I wouldn't say she has no killing power without Luma, honestly.

 

[Nabbitnator]

She'd easily be bottom 5 IMO. Without Luma her KO potential and defensive options (oh wow I can ACTUALLY GRAB THIS CARACTER NOW) plummet.

She's probably would need her custom up b for combo and added damage from down throw. It doesn't ko but it tacks on damage. I kind of agree that she wont be top 5 anymore because luma being gone 62% of the time. Then on top of anti luma strategies, there will be very good strategies against Rosalina to shut her solo game down. I can picture peach doing well against her. She can throw out peach bomber and knock luma out and then rush rosa down.

Best recoveries in this game:

These characters almost certainly messed up if they actually got hit offstage.
Best edgeguarding? Most likely

How come greninja doesn't have the best edgeguarding? I mean he can use up b to continuously keep his or her opponent off the stage along with occasionally jumping off to knock them back with back air.

 

[Conda]

I just hope that when people realize patches are a thing
in Smash now, they won't just react to their favorite character
being low on tier lists or whatnot by whining for patches to their character.

Good point.


With balance patches now being a thing, I think the best thing this forum can do is create a subforum titled "Patch change wishes" where people can post what they want to be nerfed or buffed. And whenever someone says "this needs to be nerfed" or "buff my main!", it'll be removed and they'll have to post such comments in that subforum instead.

Basically, filter out the patch request posts. It makes the LoL and WoW forums toxic. This forum will come to a halt if it fills up with that kind of crap, now that we know balance patches are a thing.

Discussions on who is strong in certain matchups, for example, shouldn't devolve to buff or nerf discussion. A subforum will make it clear that there is a place to post useless things like that, and the competitive subforum is not that place.

Or we could allow discussion on patch nerfs/buffs that we think are needed, and that'll be all we really talk about to gain catharsis rather than discussing new strategies.

 

[Starbound]

Are we assuming that solo Rosalina still has two projectiles, being Luma (functions like Kirby's Luma Shot where it goes out and dies) and Star Bits (which come from her body), or she's down to just two special moves?

 

[NairWizard]

Looking at his summary I see a lot of things that are exaggerated but at least are true. However again exaggerated and saying SoloRosa is like a low tier character is not really true.

not really true, she does have kill power with certain smash attacks, has safety on shield, and that combo doesn't work without luma yes, but she is still good. Her recovery isn't poor at all and her two specials that are not worthless. GP is situational but really good and Starbits is only worthless without luma, same for luma shot. But her overall character is still good regardless of such.

I see that you edited your post, so I'll address these points.

• "her recovery isn't poor at all . . ."

But it is. Any kind of hitbox can interrupt her default recovery. The custom ones can't be angled so they are fairly telegraphed (though I think that the attack one is pretty good, all things considering: it does trade in distance for the ability to ensure the ledgesnap, so you can still hit her away). Her aerials are also garbage for protecting her as she's trying to recover: n-air and f-air are too slow, and up-air and d-air have terrible angles.

The reason that her recovery is good is because Luma can be sent to the stage before her and can prevent the other guy from edgeguarding her. In a situation where Luma does not exist, Rosalina's recovery is significantly worse than most recoveries--she doesn't have options. She can't stall in the air like Marth; she can't side-b or up-b like Diddy; it's not among the worst recoveries in the game (Mac), but it's also nothing stellar. It's a substantial change from her with-Luma form.

• "GP is situational but really good"

GP is OK. It's worse than a reflector because there's no threat to the opponent while Rosalina uses it. If another character has a projectile, it's kind of like GP cancels out that projectile, only it's worse than that by a good margin because the burden of reacting to the projectile attack is on Rosalina. If the opponent's projectile connects with Rosalina, Rosalina gets damaged, but if the projectile is absorbed, nothing bad happens to the opponent by contrast. In certain matchups like vs. Diddy, GP is noticeably stronger.

• "Starbits is only worthless without luma, same for luma shot."

The discussion is about Rosalina without Luma, so this isn't relevant. For what it's worth, these are strong specials (especially the custom variants), which only accentuates the problem: Rosalina drops a lot without Luma.

• Re: kill power (since someone else posted about this as I was typing)

Perhaps I should have said kill ability rather than kill power. Part of kill ability is kill safety (though the percents do drop as well without Luma). Ganon's warlock punch could kill at 40 but if he'll never land it, it isn't affecting his ability to kill. Going for an f-smash as Rosalina is a good option when Luma is around because of the range, but it gets significantly easier to punish when half her hitbox is just sliced away.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

KO PERCENTAGES

Forward smash (uncharged):

102% - Start position without Luma
88% - Start position with Luma
113% - Center with Luma
125% - Center without Luma

Up smash (uncharged):

104% - with Luma
119% - without Luma

I wouldn't say she has no killing power without Luma, honestly.

Huh, fsmash kills earlier than I thought.

I'm not entirely convinced SoRo is bottom tier since GPull has to count for something, being able to singlehandedly shut down projectile camping and all. But she's also definitely not high tier like some people are saying.

 

[Rockaphin]

So...
Which characters are best at edge guarding/gimping? Which characters do you think are best at avoiding being edge guarded?

Honestly, I'd say Villager is among the best in both categories. For some characters, the bowling ball is an extremely hard tool to bypass. Also, Villager doesn't have to worry too much when chasing the opponent off the screen due to the amount of distance his up-special covers.

 

[sunset_raven]

Honestly, I'd say Villager is among the best in both categories. For some characters, the bowling ball is an extremely hard tool to bypass. Also, Villager doesn't have to worry too much when chasing the opponent off the screen due to the amount of distance his up-special covers.

Agreed, but what about their recovery? Villager has interesting options, but they're certainly not at the same level as Lucario, Palutena or Zelda.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I have no idea how anyone is supposed to edge guard Shiek because she seems to be invincible for the entire duration of her up B. Before you could just edgehog her and force her on the stage but now that's not an option anymore.

You have to chase her deep, ideally. Which granted isn't quite always an option for everyone. Her recovery is strong at very short distances like Melee Falco, but is vulnerable outside that range.

Wario has a great recovery and he's good at edgeguarding too.

Good recovery, yes in terms of distance. But he has relatively few options to fight against or ignore edgeguard attempts directly meaning he needs to either weave around them or airdodge. I also disagree with his edgeguarding being anything special. His aerials are not good for covering a lot of options offstage. While he has some potential to go deep, it's a larger commitment for him to do so than other characters. It's a similar reason why it's not always a good idea to edgeguard low with Fox and Falco because of how hard you need to commit with both characters to cover low options. Also when you consider the risk/reward, and Wario's relative lack of good offstage KO moves aside from Waft, I wouldn't call his edgeguarding that remarkable.

 

[DanGR]

SoloRosa's kill power on average is only about 5-10% weaker than with Luma, but she threatens much less space, so opponents have more options in avoiding kill moves.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Also when you consider the risk/reward, and Wario's relative lack of good offstage KO moves aside from Waft, I wouldn't call his edgeguarding that remarkable.

Actually if you want an edgeguard move you literally can not go wrong with, it's Dair. If it trades on the first few hits you get a light meteor effect. If it hits all the way it can kill at high %s (140-150% ish). It's literally never a bad option if you can land it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Actually if you want an edgeguard move you literally can not go wrong with, it's Dair. If it trades on the first few hits you get a light meteor effect. If it hits all the way it can kill at high %s (140-150% ish). It's literally never a bad option if you can land it.

Yeah see, the way I interpret this, it's not really a strong KO move, and you're probably only going to be trading against relatively specific things.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well if you're going offstage and hitting a vertical recovery it sort of counts? It's one of his best edgeguard options when it comes to verticals IMO and I figured it's worth mentioning since I've seen it trade with things like Fire Fox (somehow). Just figured I'd bring it up.

 

[meleebrawler]

Good point.


With balance patches now being a thing, I think the best thing this forum can do is create a subforum titled "Patch change wishes" where people can post what they want to be nerfed or buffed. And whenever someone says "this needs to be nerfed" or "buff my main!", it'll be removed and they'll have to post such comments in that subforum instead.

Basically, filter out the patch request posts. It makes the LoL and WoW forums toxic. This forum will come to a halt if it fills up with that kind of crap, now that we know balance patches are a thing.

Discussions on who is strong in certain matchups, for example, shouldn't devolve to buff or nerf discussion. A subforum will make it clear that there is a place to post useless things like that, and the competitive subforum is not that place.

Or we could allow discussion on patch nerfs/buffs that we think are needed, and that'll be all we really talk about to gain catharsis rather than discussing new strategies.

The only time patches should really be considered is when
either a character is so strong that the meta practically revolves around him/her
and/or said character invalidates a lot of other characters competitively (Brawl Meta Knight,
Melee Fox to a lesser extent).

Or, conversely, when it's clear that one character simply can't stand up
to a good majority of the roster.

Otherwise, players should focusing on improving their skills and finding
ways to overcome their shortcomings. THIS is how a meta develops.

 

[LostinpinK]

I'm saddened to notice how little of an improvement Kirby needs to become good. I believe that giving Kirby a slightly above average horizontal air speed and running speed would make him rise from bottom 5 or 10 to a competitively viable character. This character has literally no way to get close with it's current mobility.

Any thoughts on the character?

 

[Conda]

The only time patches should really be considered is when
either a character is so strong that the meta practically revolves around him/her
and/or said character invalidates a lot of other characters competitively (Brawl Meta Knight,
Melee Fox to a lesser extent).

Or, conversely, when it's clear that one character simply can't stand up
to a good majority of the roster.

Otherwise, players should focusing on improving their skills and finding
ways to overcome their shortcomings. THIS is how a meta develops.

Well yeah of course. This is all obvious. I'm saying 'buff' and 'nerf' discussion will happen anyway as this is the internet and this is a videogame forum, so we need to remember to discourage it.

 

[Nobie]

What do people think of the Mega Man vs. Duck Hunt matchup? My main experience with it is For Glory so it's not the most ideal competitive environment, but I've gone from dreading fighting Duck Hunt to looking forward to it, and I want to know if others feel similarly about it.

Originally, I figured that Duck Hunt's long-range zoning would beat out Mega Man's mid-range zoning, only to see that Mega Man isn't defenseless at long range. He's able to throw Metal Blades to counteract the clay pigeons and keep Duck Hunt from feeling safe on the other side of the stage. Also, he's able to approach with projectiles to quickly close the gap, and his forward smash (I think) out-ranges Duck Hunt's, making it a good tool for punishing whiffed smash attacks (though the same is likely true on Duck Hunt's end).

Am I on the right track in saying that this matchup looks even or possibly slightly in favor of Mega Man or am I overlooking something?

 

[HeavyLobster]

I just hope that when people realize patches are a thing
in Smash now, they won't just react to their favorite character
being low on tier lists or whatnot by whining for patches to their character.

Too late for that. People have been screaming for patches to help their character based on totally arbitrary tier lists made in 5 minutes for the last month and a half.

 

[Conda]

What do people think of the Mega Man vs. Duck Hunt matchup? My main experience with it is For Glory so it's not the most ideal competitive environment, but I've gone from dreading fighting Duck Hunt to looking forward to it, and I want to know if others feel similarly about it.

Originally, I figured that Duck Hunt's long-range zoning would beat out Mega Man's mid-range zoning, only to see that Mega Man isn't defenseless at long range. He's able to throw Metal Blades to counteract the clay pigeons and keep Duck Hunt from feeling safe on the other side of the stage. Also, he's able to approach with projectiles to quickly close the gap, and his forward smash (I think) out-ranges Duck Hunt's, making it a good tool for punishing whiffed smash attacks (though the same is likely true on Duck Hunt's end).

Am I on the right track in saying that this matchup looks even or possibly slightly in favor of Mega Man or am I overlooking something?

I personally am starting to think DH has the superior CQC game, compared to megaman. His tools are effective at any range and not spammable, opposite to Megaman's which are spammable and best at close-medium ranges.

DH's kit isn't exactly long-range awesomeness. Pidgeon is slow and if you can't react to one at long range, then you've got no reason being at a tournament. It does apply pressure, but that's normal. Even falco and fox aren't considered long-range projectile characters, because their projectiles are only good at forcing approaches. DH isn't on par with characters like link/Tlink out of the gate. With customs he is slightly closer due to more long range options, but he loses flexibility due to it (long range pidgeon and can are great for long range use but you lose control with those customs).

DH is a solid character and he can be used conventionally within smash's engine to perform normal things that you need to do in CQC. Megaman cannot due to no ftilt or quick gtfo jab, no quick anti-air utilt, and so forth. Aerially he's more conventional and effective as a result, but he still relies too heavily on specials to fill the gap in his moveset. This isn't unique to him, Samus has to ignore a large amount of her moves as some of them simply stink.

By comparison, DH can choose to rely heavily on his specials, but he can also play fine without doing so due to a solid CQC moveset imo.

So, for the matchup (this was a long walk to get here), I'd say DH has the advantage in close range for a number of reasons, and maybe even aerially. Megaman has to keep playing the megaman game and hope it works. Megaman isn't as flexible a fighter as I'd hoped he'd be (in terms of 'effective playstyle for competitive play'), so I'm not really sure he can adapt to the playstyle change-ups DH can do during a match.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@NAKAT Mario is bad, and he's worse than he's ever been in any other Smash game. Smash 4 Mario is Brawl Mario except with laughable damage, no Cape stalling, and nerfed Jab cancels

You want to claim Mario is "mad good"? Be straight with me and bring it here. My signature directs you to the impressions of several other people besides myself who like Mario and recognize he's very underpowered on default settings.

@Emblem Lord , I'll let you decide if this is worth fueling.

 

[popsofctown]

The custom ones can't be angled so they are fairly telegraphed (though I think that the attack one is pretty good, all things considering: it does trade in distance for the ability to ensure the ledgesnap, so you can still hit her away)..... She can't stall in the air like Marth......

Launch Star Attack can be angled, just about as much as the default. For me to get the maximum vertical angle I have to input upB, then quickly swivel the stick so far it would have B reversed if the button timing was off.

Guardian Luma has an air stall effect on it (even if Luma is dead iirc)

 

[Nobie]

I personally am starting to think DH has the superior CQC game, compared to megaman. His tools are effective at any range and not spammable, opposite to Megaman's which are spammable and best at close-medium ranges.

DH's kit isn't exactly long-range awesomeness. Pidgeon is slow and if you can't react to one at long range, then you've got no reason being at a tournament. It does apply pressure, but that's normal. Even falco and fox aren't considered long-range projectile characters, because their projectiles are only good at forcing approaches. DH isn't on par with characters like link/Tlink out of the gate. With customs he is slightly closer due to more long range options, but he loses flexibility due to it (long range pidgeon and can are great for long range use but you lose control with those customs).

DH is a solid character and he can be used conventionally within smash's engine to perform normal things that you need to do in CQC. Megaman cannot due to no ftilt or quick gtfo jab, no quick anti-air utilt, and so forth. Aerially he's more conventional and effective as a result, but he still relies too heavily on specials to fill the gap in his moveset. This isn't unique to him, Samus has to ignore a large amount of her moves as some of them simply stink.

By comparison, DH can choose to rely heavily on his specials, but he can also play fine without doing so due to a solid CQC moveset imo.

So, for the matchup (this was a long walk to get here), I'd say DH has the advantage in close range for a number of reasons, and maybe even aerially. Megaman has to keep playing the megaman game and hope it works. Megaman isn't as flexible a fighter as I'd hoped he'd be (in terms of 'effective playstyle for competitive play'), so I'm not really sure he can adapt to the playstyle change-ups DH can do during a match.

I think I see what you mean. Most likely a lot of Duck Hunts rely too much on their projectile game as a way of forcing their opponents to approach, but Mega Man doesn't have to play by his rules and can even approach on his own terms. Probably a lot of Duck Hunts don't even consider this possibility and are caught with their pants down. However, because Duck Hunt is in reality more versatile up close, it's not like Mega Man can walk in with impunity when the DH knows what they're doing, and instead Mega Man has to get into his own ideal territory of mid-range without getting too close overall. The tricky thing then is managing the can. Also probably the only time Mega Man has a major advantage in the air is when edge guarding due to back air, up air, and especially down air.

 

[Spirst]

I think I see what you mean. Most likely a lot of Duck Hunts rely too much on their projectile game as a way of forcing their opponents to approach, but Mega Man doesn't have to play by his rules and can even approach on his own terms. Probably a lot of Duck Hunts don't even consider this possibility and are caught with their pants down. However, because Duck Hunt is in reality more versatile up close, it's not like Mega Man can walk in with impunity when the DH knows what they're doing, and instead Mega Man has to get into his own ideal territory of mid-range without getting too close overall. The tricky thing then is managing the can. Also probably the only time Mega Man has a major advantage in the air is when edge guarding due to back air, up air, and especially down air.

Duck Hunt also has some pretty disjointed aerials that have more reach than you would expect for the character. Mega Man's ideal position in this matchup is at midrange which is where Duck Hunt is too far to go for physical attacks but too close to reliably set up his projectile game. I'm in agreement that Mega Man is definitely less versatile as a whole than Duck Hunt is and that's the advantage Duck Hunt has on the former. With the exception of leaf shield and the metal blade which pierce through every projectile, all of Mega Man's projectiles can be tanked with Duck Hunt's own. Adding to this, the Mega Gunmen custom have 25% HP and so can tank a number of Mega Man's attacks (including a fully charged fsmash and then some) and generally discourages him from being projectile heavy. An issue for Duck Hunt however is that more often than not, he will die before Mega Man will as the upper kills DH at an earlier percent than DH is generally able to KO Mega Man. Of note though is that Mega Man's rush coil, being a fairly predictable vertical recovery, is a prime candidate for being edgeguarded with a can which definitely helps in KOing.

Mega Man's lack of easy adaptability is what hurts him a fair amount, in my opinion. He can be a solid spacing wall but once you figure out the character and realize he isn't able to do a whole lot else, managing him becomes a good amount easier. Duck Hunt can't really play as campy in this matchup as he could against other characters but with a fairly solid CQC game, it isn't a big deal.