Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Megamang]

Something that's not really utilized at all by a lot of characters with meh landing options: If someone is standing beneath you and they're shielding to cover you landing, you can footstool jump* to give you access to more time for more mixups, and more importantly saving your double jump.

*You'll vault into the air, but they'll stay in their shield.

I feel like a few footstool combos are definitely usable and viable, but I'm doubtful they'll ever become a significant factor in the meta, affecting every character.

Holy ****, i never thought of that. That is pretty innovative.

Can characters that can act after their recovery specials, such as megaman, still get a footstool?

 

[Nobie]

So Blue's Mewtwo just beat Nairo's ZSS on stream.

Not saying Mewtwo wins that matchup or anything, but I think it's evidence of how Mewtwo's able to contend with top tiers.

 

[Rizen]

This question is For Fun, not for glory:

Assuming EVO is customs-off, what if EVO allowed customs by "Gentleman's Agreement", similar to how banned stages are allowed if both players agree. What MUs might see both players agreeing to customs-on? Obviously not any MUs involving (who always says no) or (whose opponent always says no).

v. ?
v. ?

Speaking from the and perspectives, I would not agree to customs for those MUs. Link has a much easier time spacing charizard in a vanilla setup. Ganon's customs don't compare to WFT's sweeping sun etc.

 

[Rikkhan]

So Blue's Mewtwo just beat Nairo's ZSS on stream.

Not saying Mewtwo wins that matchup or anything, but I think it's evidence of how Mewtwo's able to contend with top tiers.

Are you talking about the smash 4 ever tourney right now in twitch? because that tourney is not serious at all.

 

[Smog Frog]

swift 4-0...

well the tournament itself might not be serious but i mean nairo lost to

thats gotta be something right

 

[FullMoon]

Oh yeah I had forgotten Greninja was too short for the combo to work on.

Sometimes I forget that Greninja is actually pretty short even though they decided to randomly increase his hurtbox so it wouldn't match the model anymore for no good reason.

 

[Nobie]

Are you talking about the smash 4 ever tourney right now in twitch? because that tourney is not serious at all.

When I said "able to contend" I meant "this is the way in which Mewtwo's toolkit can interact with ZSS's and not get bodied."

Basically what we saw at the end was Nairo just being a better player, and Blue getting somewhat predictable.

 

[Rikkhan]

When I said "able to contend" I meant "this is the way in which Mewtwo's toolkit can interact with ZSS's and not get bodied."

Basically what we saw at the end was Nairo just being a better player, and Blue getting somewhat predictable.

Yeah not talking about the match in question, just from what I watched the players were just chilling and having fun, some luigi player(I believe it was blue) spaming luigi missiles and laughing and keitaro commentating while fighting nairo and SD 2 times lmao.

 

[FlynnCL]

Not sure if they were just goofing around but Nairo seemed to play the match-up in a way where Blue's Mewtwo wasn't able to breathe, land safely or play near the ledge. It also emphasized just how little mistakes you can make as there were very few neutral resets; Blue's average KO% felt like 50-60%. Looked rough, but again, they could've been messing around.

 

[Teshie U]

Holy ****, i never thought of that. That is pretty innovative.

Can characters that can act after their recovery specials, such as megaman, still get a footstool?

Yes, this is true.

 

[Y2Kay]

Oh yeah I had forgotten Greninja was too short for the combo to work on.

Sometimes I forget that Greninja is actually pretty short even though they decided to randomly increase his hurtbox so it wouldn't match the model anymore for no good reason.

I know nerf jokes are lame, but nerfing greninja's crouch so he can't duck under lasers was going a little too far by Nintendo. I don't understand why they did that.

 

[S_B]

That said, I don't know if it really helps with his top-tier matchups. He gets better reward now and people have to play safer so he doesn't eat them up for dropping the ball, but is that enough to make him a potent threat? When most of the top-tiers have safe enough options that you nearly have to force an opening, it's difficult to sustain a cohesive neutral.

It's not enough to win against the queens, but...

maybe that's all he ever needed.

...with the queens toned down a bit to reasonable levels, I think Bowser would be in an infinitely better place. He has some bad matchups still, but nothing as disgustingly unwinnable as ZSS/Sheik.

 

[Megamang]

Maybe they felt the combination of a low duck and a huge, powerful usmash, was too much. I mean, a crawl to sweet spotted usmash has probably the biggest hitbox jump of anything. Not saying he deserves it, just a thought

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Yeah not talking about the match in question, just from what I watched the players were just chilling and having fun, some luigi player(I believe it was blue) spaming luigi missiles and laughing and keitaro commentating while fighting nairo and SD 2 times lmao.

Didn't see the match but smash 4 ever is a bye weekly tournament in jersey with some pretty high level comp going there. It is most definitely a serious tournament. It may have not been at the moment you're speaking of.

 

[Emblem Lord]

A local at NJ has better comp then 90% of the scenes on the planet.

Get mad.

 

[C0rvus]

^This is more true than you might think. I go 2-2 at NJ locals. Even TSB players scoop me for free still. Here at my college in MA, I'm a top 3 player. Just won our most stacked tourney so far. NJ is pretty strong. SoCal also seems pretty darn powerful.

 

[Dr.Smex]

Footstools are definitely hit confirmable in sm4sh . Characters like Ryu, peach, doc and Lucas can get a guaranteed footstool from tools they use in the neutral already, I'm pretty confident other characters have them as well it just the footstool extenders as a concept is really unexplored widely among the cast. I feel like getting optimal punishes on slippery characters like shiek, like the peach infinite and ryu's zero to death gonna be a huge factor in the MU.

 

[Aninymouse]

So Blue's Mewtwo just beat Nairo's ZSS on stream.

Not saying Mewtwo wins that matchup or anything, but I think it's evidence of how Mewtwo's able to contend with top tiers.

Let's go @!Blue!

Great job, man. Show these guys Mewtwo ain't no bottom-tier.

 

[Megamang]

Watching dabuz powershield nairo repeatedly made me think that the zss MU isnt as hopeless for lots of characters as their boards think it is. On the flip side, it terrified me that Rosas are gonna get as good as Dabuz.

 

[Luco]

I know nerf jokes are lame, but nerfing greninja's crouch so he can't duck under lasers was going a little too far by Nintendo. I don't understand why they did that.

Can I say something that will probably get me a lot of hate?

Spoiler

I actually loved the 'Better nerf Greninja' meme. It was bad and untrue after like the second patch that changed Greninja, but... the point of the meme wasn't even about Greninja at all, it was about Nintendo being Nintendo. It wasn't made in order to stop Froggy's popularity (I'm not even sure if the meme was truly responsible for that, I think Greninja is and always will be a bit more niche than most people will go for), it was made to jab at the devs for not addressing real balance issues. Gamer's humour, and I actually thought it was in pretty good taste for its time. It was just fun to have a smash meme going around - and hey, for a while it seemed like that WAS the way of things.

But hey, that's just my opinion. A GAME OPINION.

On another topic, it was mentioned some time ago (despairingly) about how we don't really talk about characters as having much potential until they do. I actually think it's based around the way we've been conditioned to think about this game, as well as some other, more obvious things.

I'm not sure how much this goes into Tier Meta discussion. I can't stop the effects of discussion, but it is my belief this doesn't lead into the spiraling circles of discussion death that other forms of tier meta talk can. Clarify me if you feel the need to, however.

Smash 4 is freaking massive in terms of cast. It's bordering on ridiculous that we even have a stable meta-game with this diverse an array of characters.

Now what's the most common way that people have to come face to face with a cast so big on this thread? It's probably going to be tier lists (because actually playing the game is so hard - nah I kid, I have faith that most of you cool cats out there actually practice and probably even go to tournaments <3 ). I think we came to the conclusion very early on that making a tier list for the entire cast was a stupidly difficult task - just look at Shaya's opening posts for the previous CCI's. It was easier and more convenient for everyone to outline the top and bottom tiers than the entire cast. The vast majority of lists you see here go through top 10's or 15's, and the second most popular kind of list is probably bottom 5 or so, and then third place is probably anime swordsmen tier list and finally in fourth place we have actual MU ratios.

So I think everyone's eyes and minds got used to the idea of ordering these "more essential" tiers than ordering the rest of the list. This is why everyone here can name a top and bottom 10 with ease and not have too many differences in those lists.

It also means that if your character is out of that range, they're less likely to be looked at, because 'eventually we'll get to them'. The more 'middling' a character, the more this effect intensifies. Most people will agree your crew is somewhere just outside the top 10 (give or take a or depending on who you believe scrapes into 10th place), but the order gets muddled, and then do we even know if sits at 15th or 20th and is even high tier or is she just barring mid tier and is 25th or 45th????

I think this mindset that we give to our meta right now probably helps informs this problem. And it IS a problem, because we SHOULD be informed. But the game is so big, it's STILL a relatively new meta and patches mess things up on a regular basis, plus we're only human and have to live our school, uni or work lives (or whatever life you live) as well as enjoy this hobby. So there, you're all forgiven for your massive mistake.

 

[Konneh]

Blue's Mewtwo looked really impressive.

Maybe they felt the combination of a low duck and a huge, powerful usmash, was too much. I mean, a crawl to sweet spotted usmash has probably the biggest hitbox jump of anything. Not saying he deserves it, just a thought

I can think of bigger or similar hitbox jumps, like Upsmash from a standing position not to mention a crouching position, or crouch -> upsmash. I doubt that this was what lead to nerfs.

 

[bc1910]

I'm fairly certain the Greninja hurtbox nerfs were largely due to his low stance and fastfaller status allowing him to escape certain attacks, like Ike and Shulk's jab combos. Those attacks link better now though so it makes no sense for Greninja's hurtbox to remain the way it is.

But what makes us do that nearly all the time it happens? What makes people instantly think [insert character] is viable when he/she wasn't viable before [insert tournament here]? Should this not be incentive just to play [insert character] but to actually play all characters instead? We shouldn't just do this one at a time, but we need to start looking at ALL characters in a viability standpoint akin to what Toon Link's suddenly received.

But then again, people would be too lazy and would just wait. (And if Link makes top 8 in a major or national and is suddenly called a hidden high tier or viable character, that will be the day I ultimately leave this website.)

No-one is seriously suggesting Toon Link is a hidden high tier. There were some kneejerk overreactions to his stellar G3 placing, as there always are with things like that, but you have to learn to ignore them. Consistency is the name of the game.

Toon Link's placings are rarely stellar but consistently good. Italian player BlueLink for example regularly frequents top 8 in Italian tournaments and has won stuff. Link doesn't have this base level of consistency anyway and, aside from a few kneejerk commenters, wouldn't be branded a hidden high tier.

Both Links are pretty middle-of-the-pack IMO, and results suggest that Toon Link bothers that 20-25 top of mid tier range of characters while Link is looking more like a lower mid tier character.

As I said, it's about consistency and learning to ignore the people who champion characters prematurely.

 

[Wintropy]

Watching dabuz powershield nairo repeatedly made me think that the zss MU isnt as hopeless for lots of characters as their boards think it is. On the flip side, it terrified me that Rosas are gonna get as good as Dabuz.

What frustrates me about ZSS is how consistently safe she is in neutral. Most of the time I play the matchup she's free to just shorthop n-air about the place and confirm into her f1 jab if Pit get too close. Pit needs to play super patiently and wait for her to over-commit on paralyzer or whiff a pivot grab before he can really put work in. Keeping her in a compromising position is even more difficult thanks to Flip Kick shenanigans and her tether recovery negating most attempts at edgeguarding.

Oh, and not being able to reliably spotdodge her grab is a wee bit irritating too. It's my own fault for not knowing the matchup better, but it's still counter-intuitive and catches me off-guard more times than I want to admit.

Grumble mutter, grumble mutter, please disregard the kitty salt.

THAT SAID~

Yeah, I agree that powershielding makes a huge difference. I don't think Pit / ZSS is a hopeless matchup at all (I'd say it's his worst matchup, but other may disagree with me), just one where you need to be a step ahead of her at all times and play ultra-conservative to get stuff done. It reminds me of the Sheik matchup (in that you need to take Pit's "wait for an opening and poke at it repeatedly" gameplan to a new extreme because they're too safe for Pit to force the advantage), but with extra punishment for getting grabbed. Sad to say there isn't much top-level play behind this matchup to measure up to the theory, but it's probably one of Pit's more difficult ones. How much of that is due to ZSS being "2 gud" and how much is Pit players not optimising their options in the matchup, I don't know. It's probably more so the latter.

On the plus side, punishing a whiffed ZSS's grab with Electroshock never gets old. The good Pit giveth, and the good Pit he taketh away~

 

[Yikarur]

ZSS always has to go through her whole short hop to do her safe aerials. Being forced to do landing aerials in a certain timing makes powershielding easier and in neutral you always know that she has to go through a half second of animation before she can really threaten you with her safe moves. I get a lot of kills in that match-up by reading the obligatory jump she has to go through to use her very strong aerial arsenal because she doesn't have a single rising aerial that can hit grounded opponent effectively.

She definitely has weaknesses here and there. She is obviously S-Tier but she is not invincible.
I just wish her kill power would be less ridiculous; her reward is too absurd.

 

[wpwood]

About the Peach infinite, it's honestly not the hardest thing to do on Sheik. The hardest thing for me to do is to reverse hit because it's a different timing than just going forward. Setting up for footstools isn't too hard if Peach can land a down tilt. Out of down tilt Peach can footstool the opponent, instantly float, jab lock with nair, and then begin the infinite. People probably don't want to practice it now because it seems hard, but it honestly isn't.

EDIT: Don't think I've said it here before, but I have said it before: Peach beats Sheik.

There are some Palutena main out there that don't care for customs btw. Generalizing is bad usually.

 

[Nah]

EDIT: Don't think I've said it here before, but I have said it before: Peach beats Sheik.

....that's quite the claim there. You're gonna have to explain though. You can't just not explain why any character beats Sheik when like 99% of the community agrees that no one does better than even against Sheik.

 

[wpwood]

....that's quite the claim there. You're gonna have to explain though. You can't just not explain why any character beats Sheik when like 99% of the community agrees that no one does better than even against Sheik.

Aside from the infinite being possible at 0% out of grab, up tilt and turnips beat bouncing fish, floating at the ledge can cover ledge snap on vanish, floating over needle height so Peach doesn't get hit, and Sheik can not instantly throw needles again after a full charge which allows Peach to get back on the ground and refresh float or get in a little closer to Sheik. Sheik being a fast faller helps with down throw combos when not at 0. Footstool > Float > Dair > Fair kills at about 60% near the edge and is a true combo. Peach can get out of combos better than some characters in my experience. Toad isn't the best move but can punish Sheik when she overextends. Peach can kill with her multiple strong (some also fast) moves.

 

[Spinosaurus]

That's some really heavy theorycrafting that you're even ignoring a lot of Sheik's other strengths outside Needles and Bouncing Fish. You're really simplifying it.

Having a 0 to death doesn't give you an advantageous MU against Sheik either. Look at Meta Knight.

 

[Vipermoon]

Aside from the infinite being possible at 0% out of grab, up tilt and turnips beat bouncing fish, floating at the ledge can cover ledge snap on vanish, floating over needle height so Peach doesn't get hit, and Sheik can not instantly throw needles again after a full charge which allows Peach to get back on the ground and refresh float or get in a little closer to Sheik. Sheik being a fast faller helps with down throw combos when not at 0. Footstool > Float > Dair > Fair kills at about 60% near the edge and is a true combo. Peach can get out of combos better than some characters in my experience. Toad isn't the best move but can punish Sheik when she overextends. Peach can kill with her multiple strong (some also fast) moves.

Utilt beats Bouncing Fish? That is one of your points!? Sheik doesn't throw out Bouncing Fish out of nowhere. There are a billion confirms in BF. You get hit by it because it is guaranteed to hit you and that's it.

 

[Tizio Random]

About the Peach infinite combo: I think that now that some players (or one player as far as I know) can do it with absurd results and gain visibility it would be likely patched like the ZSS on Robin thing. Not sure, but it can be done on well over half of the cast. I don't know how, however.

 

[Rizen]

Please link to the Peach infinite?

ps 's Utilt beats bouncing fish

 

[Tizio Random]

Please link to the Peach infinite?

ps 's Utilt beats bouncing fish

Here's the to Umeki vs VoiD: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S07OS0NDSAk

 

[Konneh]

Please link to the Peach infinite?

ps 's Utilt beats bouncing fish

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkr7n3ecrFk
here's another one with the technique behind it explained.

Another point I really didn't appreciate when it came to explaining why Peach wins against Sheik was "floating over needle height so Peach doesn't get hit, and Sheik can not instantly throw needles again after a full charge which allows Peach to get back on the ground and refresh float or get in a little closer to Sheik." - I would imagine Sheik is not going to randomly throw out those needles while Peach floats high enough to avoid them. From my perspective, one of the strongest points of needles is throwing them out to cover landings, especially at high enough % to knock the enemy back up with the needle kb. So how does Peach safely land against a Sheik that is just standing there within a healthy distance, waiting with fully charged needles?

 

[C0rvus]

That's the big weakness of float. It's a great pressure tool, but it has to end. So projectiles can react to to cover the landing reasonably easily. Of course, mixing it up with varying heights and saving your double jump is key.

Also, if Peach is floating then she cannot guard. She can air dodge, but it brings her out of float, and at many heights used to approach, it will incur landing lag. In most cases, float loses to projectiles.

I'm a big fan of the way Peach plays footsies and applies pressure, so I would be saddened deeply if her meta going forward relied on an infinite combo. She's a character with some pretty deep tools, to see them put behind an exploit would be to the detriment of the character.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That's the big weakness of float. It's a great pressure tool, but it has to end. So projectiles can react to to cover the landing reasonably easily. Of course, mixing it up with varying heights and saving your double jump is key.

Also, if Peach is floating then she cannot guard. She can air dodge, but it brings her out of float, and at many heights used to approach, it will incur landing lag. In most cases, float loses to projectiles.

I'm a big fan of the way Peach plays footsies and applies pressure, so I would be saddened deeply if her meta going forward relied on an infinite combo. She's a character with some pretty deep tools, to see them put behind an exploit would be to the detriment of the character.

Nobody in this game will rely on punish game only. People will find ways to make it ridiculously hard to get that grab down the line. The comp will force you to utilize peach's other techs in order to win. And if even the players of peach are able to understand and execute a great deal of peach's neutral game theory, there will be peach players that'll do different things simply based on Playstyle, strengths and weaknesses,etc... Nobody will and has played the same exact Playstyle.

 

[C0rvus]

I suppose you're right. I just had flashbacks of Brawl Ice Climbers and had to lay down a while.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I suppose you're right. I just had flashbacks of Brawl Ice Climbers and had to lay down a while.

9B and Vinnie

Absolute different play styles on the same O-to-Death character.

 

[Wintropy]

It's not enough to win against the queens, but with the queens toned down a bit to reasonable levels, I think Bowser would be in an infinitely better place. He has some bad matchups still, but nothing as disgustingly unwinnable as ZSS/Sheik.

Talk to me about Bowser. I want to know your thoughts on his current place in the meta and whether or not he has potential to develop further now that he has a viable gameplan.

I know you're a vocal proponent of the idea that Sheik and ZSS need to be nerfed for the continued health of the game (and I am neither going to agree nor disagree with that sentiment), but let's just presume for the sake of debate that they're never nerfed and they remain this way indefinitely.

That being said, where do you see Bowser going from here, and what does he need to do to remain a consistent threat? Do you think it's possible for him to find a comfortable niche for himself as a respectable opponent, or will his matchup with "the queens" hold him back from any kind of distinction?

 

[FallofBrawl]

Instead of nerfing Sheik and ZSS, how would the meta be if the new characters were developed in a way to be direct counters to them but lose to some lower tiered characters? Would everyone see a boost in viability? (This is just some theory).

 

[Megamang]

Instead of nerfing Sheik and ZSS, how would the meta be if the new characters were developed in a way to be direct counters to them but lose to some lower tiered characters? Would everyone see a boost in viability? (This is just some theory).

I dont see how thats possible. To counter shiek's absurd power level, you'd need too strong of tools. How do you counter safety, best projectile, best mobility, plentful hit and kill confirms?