Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Nobie]

Kind of...most people likely think he's better now, but I remember some Mewtwo mains saying that he was fine before and didn't get that much better with the changes he got last patch.

This actually confuses me. Outside of complaints about Mewtwo's weight, I don't know how you look at the sheer breadth and quality of Mewtwo's buffs and say that it doesn't change anything.

I was talking about this in the Mewtwo forums, but just as one example the changes to Mewtwo's fair alone are so significant. Sure, they only shaved one frame off (7 to 6) and gave it slightly better range, but now you have a fair that's fast and disjointed enough to challenge Sheik's fair, except it kills way earlier. In fact, fast, POWERFUL fairs are extremely rare in Smash 4 (unlike bairs), and the only one that's even comparable is Marth's (also Frame 6), which still kills later than Mewtwo's even when tippered.

 

[Sonicninja115]

This actually confuses me. Outside of complaints about Mewtwo's weight, I don't know how you look at the sheer breadth and quality of Mewtwo's buffs and say that it doesn't change anything.

I was talking about this in the Mewtwo forums, but just as one example the changes to Mewtwo's fair alone are so significant. Sure, they only shaved one frame off (7 to 6) and gave it slightly better range, but now you have a fair that's fast and disjointed enough to challenge Sheik's fair, except it kills way earlier. In fact, fast, POWERFUL fairs are extremely rare in Smash 4 (unlike bairs), and the only one that's even comparable is Marth's (also Frame 6), which still kills later than Mewtwo's even when tippered.

The buffs are amazing. Nair now true combos much easier into other moves, before it was almost frame perfect, now there is a lot of leeway. Uair on a grounded opponent kills Shiek at 125%, with DI it goes up to 135%, however, this is grounded...

Combo strings no longer kill as much(except a couple of Fair strings) but combo much easier and deal more damage. DJ Uair-Fair/Bair/Uair is BnB now.

ShadowBall is bigger, allowing for more option coverage and frame traps.

Fair is probably the 1st or second best Fair in the game. It can combo into itself 4 times, kills at the early 100%s on-stage, and links into other moves as well as is linked into. (Uair/Dtilt/Fair)

His speed is above par, and he has one of the fastest airspeeds in the game apparently(but bad acceleration? Don't quote the final part)

His only large downsides are weight(the big one) and he sometimes has trouble landing. This, however, is negated by the plethora of landing options he has.

He also has an intangible recovery, projectile, reflector and a stunner.

I think Mewtwo isn't great, but he has a lot going for him.

 

[LancerStaff]

So I've been talking to Earth on Twitter, and I asked him what he likes about Pit.

Earth replied that he likes how Pit is a character with no glaring weaknesses and an orthodox play style, who wins by observing the opponent's actions and exploiting their weaknesses in neutral.

I think it's an interesting perspective, especially given the whole "why choose anyone other than Sheik or ZSS?"

Dang, if I knew any Japanese or had a twitter he'd block me so fast from the wall of questions I'd send him.

His reasons for picking Pit really show in his play though. Walks a ton and generally reacts rather then acting. Sometimes I wonder if that's really optimal though... Not a lot of "aggro" Pits around to really test it besides Nairo on occasion.

(but bad air acceleration? Don't quote the final part)

Quoting.

Like a five-way tie for third worst aerial accel IIRC. Not exactly helping his disadvantage... Also partly why Rosalina's disadvantage is that much better then Mewtwo's. (Pretty sure I said this the other day but eh.) To clarify (also just like the other day) air accel is basically a + X every frame independent of max air speed. The best air accel and worst air speed would be better then best air speed and worst accel, which is basically what Mewtwo has...

Air accel and a bunch of other stats are up on Kurogane now if you're wondering.

 

[Sonicninja115]

LancerStaff I know they are there, I was just too lazy to find them...

He has quite a few things going for him, and a lot of his metagame is relatively unexplored. I have about five things that I want to lab, and all of them are rather essential. Frame traps with mini SB's and such.

 

[LancerStaff]

LancerStaff I know they are there, I was just too lazy to find them...

He has quite a few things going for him, and a lot of his metagame is relatively unexplored. I have about five things that I want to lab, and all of them are rather essential. Frame traps with mini SB's and such.

Hm? Wasn't trashing on Mewtwo, just explaining that he has bad air accel and what it means.

 

[Megamang]

He was speaking off the top of his mind and didnt want to check frame data specifically.


Speaking for others aside, i really like the mewtwo buffs. He feels like a true glass cannon now. Between him and kirby, we can see how important mobility buffs are. (Im aware they got other buffs). Im glad they are open to changing mobility, i hope for a few more tweaks in that department. Someone said it before, but shiek really illustrates what is important in smash games with her strengths, this goes for her mobility especially. She isnt the fastest, yet she just moves so fluidly and gets her shield or moves out just a little faster.

Imagine, for example, a dash to shield buff for zard. Itd make sense, as he has amazing OoS options. Itd allow his approach to be easier/safer, without putting any particular move on a crazy power level.

 

[Mister M]

Just for fun (not for provokative purposes) what level of play do you think tier list data starts to become applicable by that i mran, demonstrating the limits of a character. Obviously it is irrelevant at casual play, but it also doesn't seems too relevent local level play either. You have PR'D people placing with mid-high tier characters.

So at a national, would you say a characters limitations really start to come to light at say top 8, or 16, or 32, or so on.

Because there's a general gear shift in opinions when people see a low tier take a game. Along time ago it was Dr Mario against Esams pika. More recently, a Mexican game and watch making noise in Crews. And of course, Villager suddenly floating about top 5 (maybe exaggerating) rather than top 10. These all sound like they should be celebrating players rather than characters.

I don't know the answer.

 

[Das Koopa]

Playing Little Mac on For Glory (yes I hate myself) and discovered that

A: Rosalina matchup is completely hopeless. I'm probably 15 months late on that, but hey.
B: Zelda matchup seems not so good but it's at a low skill level on FD so I don't know for sure.

Seems like she can camp out the ledge and has a few disruptive options to keep you out. Phantom Knight gets ruined quick but it seems like if you focus on killing it you leave yourself open, and if you don't kill it you might get a punish but Zelda can bring it out again.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Mac should destroy Zelda no problem. Remain close to her, don't give her time to charge Phantom (even if she does, you can react to it), use tilts to space her out, if you read her wanting to do any attack smack her with your smashes, if you see a roll, Dash Attack. She can't really get away from pressure as Mac is 1000 times faster and catches up to her quickly, and if he does not stop being on her face (read: slightly outside of her Fsmash range), her options are very slim.

Online's lag makes it difficult to realize how much you can exploit a character's weaknesses.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@PeachBooty
You know the girl well, how would you rate Peach?

I mean she's still being developed, what with best INSANE to pull off techs, amazing combos, strong mixup options, versatile projectile fantastic moves all around.

though, I stopped playing her, she is amazing....but yea I unfortunately had to deal with she's too complicated for me. Also seeing @EOE videos of Peach..... Yea it made me realise it even more.
Sadly I won't be playing her for some time, but maybe in the future when I get to go to tourneys, and am actually better with techs and stuff, I'll return...I hope.


It's so sad too, loved her in brawl, did a few things alone in melee, and in sm4sh too.
Sucks to play a character alot....but to end up having to mostly stop...its..its almost heart-breaking ya know?

 

[Jamurai]

Just gonna go ahead and point out, a lot of people believe that MK's buffs are the reason that he is top tier. In fact, his buffs weren't important at all to his viability. He has had his ridiculous punish game since Wii U release. All he has received from Wii U patches (so far) are a slightly better Nair, Ftilt and jab, a Utilt change, DCape RCO lag fix, and sword trail animation changes. Also, a buff to Lazy Loop, but we don't talk about that. I mean the buffs have been nice, but not game-changing by any means.

People rated him low for half a year because he wasn't Brawl MK and when people tried him and saw how much he had changed (especially how his neutral is much less godlike) they discarded him as mediocre at best. Only those who explored the character knew that we was actually really good, like for real. But of course a lot of mid- / low-tier mains say this about their character.

Once Leo vs Mr R happened, people starting paying attention to other MKs such as Ito and Tyrant. Also, although his buffs didn't revolutionise the character, they did put him in the spotlight somewhat (mainly in 1.0.8, the patch which buffed three moves at once). Then Abadango was like "yoooo" and showed TBH5 MK's true power on the big stage with his polished punish game. Only after that was it cemented in people's minds that MK is one of the best characters in the game.

 

[DanGR]

I think it's silly that Peach can hit-confirm any of dtilt, low percent short or full hop dair, low percent float next to ground nair, falling upair or nair, any onstage footstool (with float available), and anything else that leads to a guaranteed footstool (including if they're standing on the ground)... she can hit-confirm all of those into an infinite.

We see players capable of doing the infinite less than a year into the game's lifespan and we see how many things lead into the infinite, and people still assign the character to tiers besides very high/top in theory-based tier lists.

 

[Nobie]

I think it's silly that Peach can hit-confirm any of dtilt, low percent short or full hop dair, low percent float next to ground nair, falling upair or nair, any onstage footstool (with float available), and anything else that leads to a guaranteed footstool (including if they're standing on the ground)... she can hit-confirm all of those into an infinite.

We see players capable of doing the infinite less than a year into the game's lifespan and we see how many things lead into the infinite, and people still assign the character to tiers besides very high/top in theory-based tier lists.

I'd argue that it's the opposite. People who focus more on theory in their tier lists tend to rate Peach very highly, while those who are more focused on results more often think Peach is mid tier.

 

[Smog Frog]

i think the mountain of tech you have to climb and master to play makes her super intimidating to play. the amount of work you have to put in exceeds the reward, even if shes a good character. contrast to characters like : easy to pick up and play, and also get good results. contrast to : not exactly easy to pick up and play, but the reward exceeds the work put in by a fair(ha ha funny joke) margin.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I think they both are excellent choices for beginning characters and lifelong teachers of fundamentals. If I were to teach a group of beginners into competitive smash, I think I'd ship them all mario (since he's the most famous character and stuf). I would have them completely focused on him until they know how to utilize majority of his moveset well and I would put them against each other. After I play them, I'll determine if they graduate my smash academy and they then can choose what character they want to main.

In this game Mario players just fish for grab -> utilt. It's an unfortunately common design decision that leads to bad habits.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Well, why is peach a mid tier? What about her keeps her out of high tier?

That ain't how it works though. You tell me how she's high tier and I tell you why you're wrong.

I'll take you up on that offer. If it's okay with you, i'd like to see your top 15 character list.

Uber Tier: > [ordered]
Top Tier: [unordered]
Very High Tier: [unordered]

Would be my current top 8.

Ryu, Mario, Pikachu and Ness are better than Peach as well. Cloud remains to be seen but he's probably better than her. That's 13 characters we got right there. Between the Pits, Falcon, Luigi, Yoshi, Ike, Wario, Toon Link, Greninja ... I'm sure there are two or more characters that are better than Peach. Not that I have an actual top 15 but that's how I see it right now. Also worth noting that "top 15" is not equivalent to "high tier" in my book. That'd be too generous, the 15th best character in this game is *not* a high tier anymore.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I was kinda afraid to say it, but I do feel like the work you put in her is a huge mountain to climb. If your dedicated toher, then yea its worth it, but that's if your dedicated.
Also I'm wondering, if Peach is so complex, should you have her as a secondary? In the sense that you have to really work hard with her, and would you really work harder for a secondary then a main? Idk. That's why I'm curious.
Do any characters work like that?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Imagine, for example, a dash to shield buff for zard. Itd make sense, as he has amazing OoS options. Itd allow his approach to be easier/safer, without putting any particular move on a crazy power level.

Charizard really wants more traction to reduce shield pushback more than anything to get more out of his OoS options.

 

[Megamang]

Dash to shield being quickened would also make dash - powershield easier and more powerful. I also have doubts they'd change traction, its part of 'character feel' more than dash to shield frame data. Not saying youre wrong, quite the opposite, but that's why i feel it wont change.

 

[Nemesis561]

Im curious about Wario. I don't really know a ton about the character as there aren't many good ones in My region.

It seems consensus that he is top 15 in most people's tier lists. I am not saying he shouldn't be, I am simply pleading ignorance. I know he has an amazing command grab and great recovery, and of course the fart speaks for itself. So, is he rated so highly, similarily to Lucario, because he has a powerful gimmick that looms over the battle? Is that the major reason?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

In this game Mario players just fish for grab -> utilt. It's an unfortunately common design decision that leads to bad habits.

And they will get broken when players start to throw Arms and legs in their face. You can't really rely on such percent specific combos (I mean it's only super effective at low percents) like they're like some pre-Luigi combos. Mario is pretty honest (though he got some cheesy stuff).

 

[ARISTOS]

That ain't how it works though. You tell me how she's high tier and I tell you why you're wrong.

Ryu, Mario, Pikachu and Ness are better than Peach as well. Cloud remains to be seen but he's probably better than her. That's 13 characters we got right there. Between the Pits, Falcon, Luigi, Yoshi, Ike, Wario, Toon Link, Greninja ... I'm sure there are two or more characters that are better than Peach. Not that I have an actual top 15 but that's how I see it right now. Also worth noting that "top 15" is not equivalent to "high tier" in my book. That'd be too generous, the 15th best character in this game is *not* a high tier anymore.

From the way you've outlined it it seems to come down to what you define as top/high tier.

For example, I think most people would rename your "Very High" tier as just part of top tier. Ryu, Mario and Ness would probably go into that or the top of high tier.

Basically, depending on how you order/name tiers Peach becomes either a high tier/mid tier.

I was kinda afraid to say it, but I do feel like the work you put in her is a huge mountain to climb. If your dedicated toher, then yea its worth it, but that's if your dedicated.
Also I'm wondering, if Peach is so complex, should you have her as a secondary? In the sense that you have to really work hard with her, and would you really work harder for a secondary then a main? Idk. That's why I'm curious.
Do any characters work like that?

Peach is not a secondary character, there is literally no reason to secondary this character outside of for funsies.

As a main you will prob. need a secondary for Diddy/Sheik though.

 

[L9999]

I wish Sakurai and the dev team throw a bone to Robin so his mobility isn't complete garbage. Why is Robin so slow?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ryu, Mario and Ness would probably go into that or the top of high tier.

We can make this even simpler.

Mario is not a top tier character. I think he's a tier higher than Peach though.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

I wish Sakurai and the dev team throw a bone to Robin so his mobility isn't complete garbage. Why is Robin so slow?

The same reason Ganondorf and Little Mac are utter garbage; because Sakurai decided to balance this game for more casual play; hence why Robin is basically made for standing and spamming projectiles, because that's a braindead strategy that anybody can use. Sure, Ganon and Mac suck in competetive play, but in casual, items-on FFAs, they're some of the best characters in the game.

 

[L9999]

Doesn't make sense when Robin's projectiles are limited and Ness is free to run jump around throwing PK Fires and doing PKT2.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Doesn't make sense when Robin's projectiles are limited and Ness is free to run jump around throwing PK Fires and doing PKT2.

You can get a ton more out of Arc Thunder 2nd last one) then PK Fire

 

[Radical Larry]

Does anyone know the best direction to try to DI out of PK Fire? I'm still having trouble with it on some characters.

 

[L9999]

You can get a ton more out of Arc Thunder 2nd last one) then PK Fire

It's in a context of FFA. 1v1 not sure.

 

[Nobie]

I wish Sakurai and the dev team throw a bone to Robin so his mobility isn't complete garbage. Why is Robin so slow?

Generally, characters' physics are based on the games they come from. This is why Luigi has that high fluttery jump, Samus runs and moves as fast as she does, and why Peach's game plan revolves around her float. From there, characters are then adjusted so that their strengths and weaknesses make more conceptual sense based on the archetype that emerges. This is why Mega Man does not have his pitiful jump height from his games, while Kirby and Dedede don't have super fast, far-reaching multiple jumps.

For characters that don't have a direct basis for reference, such as Robin, it comes down to what the character is supposed to "be." Robin is a strategist. He's supposed to be a thinker more than a fighter, and it's reflected in his slow run speed. Robin's supposed to be a character that requires the player to constantly juggle various factors that other a lot of other characters don't, like resource management, strong zoning, etc. Think of Robin the character as the King on a chessboard, and all of his attacks are the other pieces. Get through his Rooks and Queen and such, and you expose him accordingly.

Think about this as well: compare him to the somewhat similar Duck Hunt. Duck Hunt has a ton of mobility. He's fast on the ground, pretty quick in the air, has the best rolls and spot dodge in the game, and is designed to be a slippery zoner. However, Duck Hunt suffers from poor killing ability. Robin, who is much less mobile than Duck Hunt, has no trouble landing a KO.

 

[PK Gaming]

That ain't how it works though. You tell me how she's high tier and I tell you why you're wrong.



Uber Tier: > [ordered]
Top Tier: [unordered]
Very High Tier: [unordered]

Would be my current top 8.

Ryu, Mario, Pikachu and Ness are better than Peach as well. Cloud remains to be seen but he's probably better than her. That's 13 characters we got right there. Between the Pits, Falcon, Luigi, Yoshi, Ike, Wario, Toon Link, Greninja ... I'm sure there are two or more characters that are better than Peach. Not that I have an actual top 15 but that's how I see it right now. Also worth noting that "top 15" is not equivalent to "high tier" in my book. That'd be too generous, the 15th best character in this game is *not* a high tier anymore.

Yeah, that more or less looks right to me. I used to be on the Mario train until G3 made his limitations abundantly clear.

Thanks.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I don't know where all this FFA talk came from...and an offshoot of Robin of all characters...

Robin is slow so he doesn't get brain dead grab confirms (and huge reward) off Arcfire and the Arcthunder, that's it, simple.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin is slow on the ground because his aerials are gargantuan, come out Frame 11 at the latest, kill at 105 center stage, and all autocancel out of a short hop. And has a screen-size killing projectile and books that KO at 115.

You don't want this character controlling the stage with these tools with any ground speed greater than Megaman's, let alone average.

 

[sunfallSeraph]

I don't know where all this FFA talk came from...and an offshoot of Robin of all characters...

Robin is slow so he doesn't get brain dead grab confirms (and huge reward) off Arcfire and the Arcthunder, that's it, simple.

...She does though? Not from halfway across the stage, sure, but if you land Arcthunder within a fairly reasonable distance you'll get the grab regardless of whether the spell hit them or their shield. If you land Arcthunder in close range, you can get whatever you want, including Nosferatu. The range and endlag on Arcfire are likewise accommodating for followups unless you're using it out of a retreating short hop or something. The reduction of endlag on Arcthunder made its reward shoot through the roof, especially when combined with the now guaranteed Dthrow followups. Robin's mobility limits her in a lot of ways, but it doesn't stop her from doing big damage when landing one of these projectiles.

 

[arbustopachon]

A dash to shield buff to zard would be amazing. Sliding standing grab would be pretty sweet.

Generally, characters' physics are based on the games they come from.

I wish this were true for zard. like i get that if he had a good airspeed his edgeguarding would be pretty bonkers (jump cancelled rocksmashes would look hilarious tho), but why does his jumpsquat and hard landing lag have to be so bad? He is a flying type! he should know how to land properly!

 

[FallofBrawl]

...She does though? Not from halfway across the stage, sure, but if you land Arcthunder within a fairly reasonable distance you'll get the grab regardless of whether the spell hit them or their shield. If you land Arcthunder in close range, you can get whatever you want, including Nosferatu. The range and endlag on Arcfire are likewise accommodating for followups unless you're using it out of a retreating short hop or something. The reduction of endlag on Arcthunder made its reward shoot through the roof, especially when combined with the now guaranteed Dthrow followups. Robin's mobility limits her in a lot of ways, but it doesn't stop her from doing big damage when landing one of these projectiles.

I know. I meant it in a way where she can grab confirm from ridiculous lengths, hence why I put "brain dead"

 

[Dr.Smex]

I honestly think Peach has the potential to be top tier if people actually master her high execution stuff. Just look at this friendly match between Umeki and void https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S07OS0NDSAk&feature=youtu.be
She's probably the most rewarding character if you put in the time to learn her float stuff. Peach metagame needs more than a year for it to flourish imo

 

[Fatmanonice]

Playing Little Mac on For Glory (yes I hate myself) and discovered that

A: Rosalina matchup is completely hopeless. I'm probably 15 months late on that, but hey.
B: Zelda matchup seems not so good but it's at a low skill level on FD so I don't know for sure.

Seems like she can camp out the ledge and has a few disruptive options to keep you out. Phantom Knight gets ruined quick but it seems like if you focus on killing it you leave yourself open, and if you don't kill it you might get a punish but Zelda can bring it out again.

From my personal experience, are significantly better online due to lag and these characters can capitalize hard on any sort of late input. In my opinion, does terrible against anyone who can consistently keep him out. If their close quarters options are limited, Mac's going to have the upper hand. This is why I'd argue that characters like are in for a bad time if they can't get Little Mac off of them. It's still in their favor but holy crap do things get tense, especially if Mac has rage.

i think the mountain of tech you have to climb and master to play makes her super intimidating to play. the amount of work you have to put in exceeds the reward, even if shes a good character. contrast to characters like : easy to pick up and play, and also get good results. contrast to : not exactly easy to pick up and play, but the reward exceeds the work put in by a fair(ha ha funny joke) margin.

The same could be said about ... and ... and ... and ... and ... This could also be applied to and but to a lesser degree.

 

[Nobie]

I wish this were true for zard. like i get that if he had a good airspeed his edgeguarding would be pretty bonkers (jump cancelled rocksmashes would look hilarious tho), but why does his jumpsquat and hard landing lag have to be so bad? He is a flying type! he should know how to land properly!

Thaaat's not quite what I meant. When I said that they are based on their source material, I meant when they literally have a moving sprite or model to look at for reference. Charizard exists as a bunch of numbers in Pokemon, not a controllable active character. Also, Charizard isn't that fast in Pokemon in the first place. He's more of an all-rounder with some decent offensive power (also thank whatever god you have that Stealth Rock isn't a thing in Smash Bros).

 

[LancerStaff]

I wish Sakurai and the dev team throw a bone to Robin so his mobility isn't complete garbage. Why is Robin so slow?

Levin aerials. If they had more normal start-up and endlag (and maybe a few less uses, IDK) then Robin wouldn't need to be the slowest character in the game. Not enough to ruin his Arcthunder combos or anything (Uair could probably stay fast anyway) but enough to where he can't just throw them out whenever.