Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Mario766]

I think Falcon is mid-tier, he has an amazong frame data and speed overall, great damage out put, good combos etc... but being a fast fallsr heavy weight with a huge hurtbox makes him so easy to combo, also his approaches aren't that goodn, and his recovery is easy to gimp

Falcon's frame data isn't even amazing.

His jab is frame 3, his smashes are all rather slow, and his aerials are decent with N-Air at 7, and U-Air at 6.

 

[LancerStaff]

Just gonna chime in here and say that, ever since I really sat down and thought about it, I've been of the opinion that Tink's a decent character. It's not an overnight change of opinion that's encouraged us to say "Tink may be high-tier", it's just that people who were sitting on the fence or otherwise didn't know about his potential got a wake-up call recently. It just helped confirm what most people were thinking or had good reason to believe.

That segues nicely into something I want to say, so I have to ask: what's with people (most noticeably off the top of my head there's ZeRo and FOW, but I've heard it mentioned a few times in this thread too) suggesting that Pit / Dark Pit are potential candidates for Top 15? Something to do with the Electroshock buff? Earth taking names in the States? Or did I just miss the memo? I mean, you all know how obsessive I am about my winged babies, and I think they're definitely strong and underrepresented characters, but there seems to have been an awakening of sorts recently and I'm wondering if something good triggered it or I'm just stupid and don't notice these things.

ZeRo and Nairo were talking about Dark Pit being top 15 material before Genesis but I think after the one tournament Earth beat Ranai in grand finals. (And apparently proposed to his GF/doubles partner just before the set. Whew, must of had a crazy adrenaline rush or something after all that.) Was probably the Electroshock buff though, hehehe.

Just hoping the angel hype doesn't fade if they decide to make Electroshock kill like 10-15% later... Myself I wouldn't mind too much because it is pretty dumb but you remember what people thought of Greninja and Diddy right after the nerfs, right? Also hoping they don't notice the B-reverse.

Now that I think about it, the shieldstun patch probably helped a ton. Not too sure what it was before but Nair's right on the edge of being unsafe on shield now. Considering everything else on the move, I mean, look how much Earth uses it, it's pretty big. Same patch was the arrow buff too IIRC...

 

[BSP]

I think Falcon is mid-tier, he has an amazong frame data and speed overall, great damage out put, good combos etc... but being a fast fallsr heavy weight with a huge hurtbox makes him so easy to combo, also his approaches aren't that goodn, and his recovery is easy to gimp

IDK about mid tier, but my beef with Falcon at the moment is how bad his Sheik MU seems. When is the last time he's beaten Sheik at high level?

 

[Mario766]

Sheik and Pika are both known terrible Falcon MUs.

It affects his viability heavily.

 

[Y2Kay]

ZeRo vs Fatality was just bad

The falcon ditto was worse tho

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I just want to mention something about the tier list. Results matter SOOOOOO much for the tier list. was considered one of the bottom characters, but when Leo beat Mr.R and Ito along with Tyrant did amazing with him at nationals, people's opinion quickly changed. Another example I can think of off the top of my head is . He was another character considered at the bottom and now he is at least high mid tier thanks to Ryo and Ryuga. I remember the days when people thought was among the bottom 10, but tweek proved them all wrong. was also considered a relativaly bad character earlier on, but now he is a mid tier because DK will shows that he can improve, and well also Ding-Dong. And unless I am remembering, was also considered kinda low, but 8bitman and Holy proved us wrong, and well Beep-Boop. The tier list will change, and I could also do comparing with Melee tier lists to prove this, but I will save that for later :D.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

I just want to mention something about the tier list. Results matter SOOOOOO much for the tier list. was considered one of the bottom characters, but when Leo beat Mr.R and Ito along with Tyrant did amazing with him at nationals, people's opinion quickly changed. Another example I can think of off the top of my head is . He was another character considered at the bottom and now he is at least high mid tier thanks to Ryo and Ryuga. I remember the days when people thought was among the bottom 10, but tweek proved them all wrong. was also considered a relativaly bad character earlier on, but now he is a mid tier because DK will shows that he can improve, and well also Ding-Dong. And unless I am remembering, was also considered kinda low, but 8bitman and Holy proved us wrong, and well Beep-Boop. The tier list will change, and I could also do comparing with Melee tier lists to prove this, but I will save that for later :D.

You do know that all three, were greatly improved by patches (more so Ike / MK). Not trying to dismiss the point but buffs can play a significant impact on people's view of a character. is still a bad character, and while the character itself isn't bad; most top tiers prevents him from shining (ex.) mainly due to the way fatties work in Smash 4.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

You do know that all three, were greatly improved by patches (more so Ike / MK). Not trying to dismiss the point but buffs can play a significant impact on people's view of a character. is still a bad character, and while the character itself isn't bad; most top tiers prevents him from shining (ex.) mainly due to the way fatties work in Smash 4.

Like I forgot to mention, buffs are a thing, sorry about that and Bowser Jr. is considered a mid tier by many irrc. And i think meta knight gained more stride from Leo.

 

[Pazx]

edit: 'd

I just want to mention something about the tier list. Results matter SOOOOOO much for the tier list. was considered one of the bottom characters, but when Leo beat Mr.R and Ito along with Tyrant did amazing with him at nationals, people's opinion quickly changed. Another example I can think of off the top of my head is . He was another character considered at the bottom and now he is at least high mid tier thanks to Ryo and Ryuga. I remember the days when people thought was among the bottom 10, but tweek proved them all wrong. was also considered a relativaly bad character earlier on, but now he is a mid tier because DK will shows that he can improve, and well also Ding-Dong. And unless I am remembering, was also considered kinda low, but 8bitman and Holy proved us wrong, and well Beep-Boop. The tier list will change, and I could also do comparing with Melee tier lists to prove this, but I will save that for later :D.

got buffed, although the MK mains know Ito was putting in work long before popular opinion (outside of NorCal) rose.
got buffed, multiple times I believe.
got buffed, a kill confirm is really something and now his damage racking is even better.
is likely still a bad character, I wouldn't be surprised if he was around the bottom 10.
I don't think anybody ever thought this character was low tier, you're only the second person to have any sort of negative opinion of ROB early days. If anything, he was overrated at one point, combined with the nerf we've seen perception of him go down gently.

Results matter, but similar to the Toon Link situation a couple of posts/pages ago MK mains knew MK was good before everyone else did. Major tournament results are not the be all end all, and results in general must be analysed in context.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

edit: 'd



got buffed, although the MK mains know Ito was putting in work long before popular opinion (outside of NorCal) rose.
got buffed, multiple times I believe.
got buffed, a kill confirm is really something and now his damage racking is even better.
is likely still a bad character, I wouldn't be surprised if he was around the bottom 10.
I don't think anybody ever thought this character was low tier, you're only the second person to have any sort of negative opinion of ROB early days. If anything, he was overrated at one point, combined with the nerf we've seen perception of him go down gently.

Results matter, but similar to the Toon Link situation a couple of posts/pages ago MK mains knew MK was good before everyone else did. Major tournament results are not the be all end all, and results in general must be analysed in context.

I never thought ROB was bad, it was just what I had noticed from previous knowledge. Also yeah, I forgot to mention buffs in my post sorry D:.

 

[Radical Larry]

If Smash 4 gets to be at EVO 2016, I'm going there with my Link.

Falcon's frame data isn't even amazing.

His jab is frame 3, his smashes are all rather slow, and his aerials are decent with N-Air at 7, and U-Air at 6.

And just as I announce my possibility of going to EVO, I read this.
You're calling a frame 3 jab not amazing? And of course his Smashes would be slow; they're powerful attacks.

 

[JesterJaded]

well looks like i have more footstools to practice, sadly that also uses the close hit of zair... thanks for posting this, i need to use youtube more it seems

That's likely never to happen in CQC without the hardest of reads / punishes, yeah, but Dthrow > Footstool can set up for this pretty well. You know, when you don't want to keep doing Dthrow > footstool I guess. General consensus among Lucas mains says that Dthrow > footstool gets harder at higher percents, so this may be a decent alternative.

 

[Sonicninja115]

IDK about mid tier, but my beef with Falcon at the moment is how bad his Sheik MU seems. When is the last time he's beaten Sheik at high level?

Nientono bustered out against Tearbear at EVO, and I don't know if he played Diddy or Shiek against Fatality at G3.

 

[HeavyLobster]

If Smash 4 gets to be at EVO 2016, I'm going there with my Link.



And just as I announce my possibility of going to EVO, I read this.
You're calling a frame 3 jab not amazing? And of course his Smashes would be slow; they're powerful attacks.

It's not that his jab is bad framewise, but that the rest of his grounded moves are kind of slow. Falcon's tilts on the whole are fairly mediocre, and the strength of his neutral is largely predicated on the strength of his jab and the threat of dash grab, hence my earlier statement that he'd suck without them in spite of his mobility and combos.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

You're calling a frame 3 jab not amazing? And of course his Smashes would be slow; they're powerful attacks.

He's just saying that's the only tools falcon has that are truly useful right now. I personally think falcon doesn't need many tools since his entire kit has always been focused on a small pool of moves that are just bonkers on his physics. He has jab, Uair, Bair, Fair, his grab game, his pressure just by his speed, dash attack, dash grab and even some Situational tilts and specials. I think his punish game is strong enough to keep him high tier. It's just he needs to actually touch his opponent to perform his punish game and that can be problematic.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

And if Falcon gets touched, well...

We all know what happens then.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Megamang]

Dear god ZSS needs to not have a f1 jab. These comparisons to falcon just makes it seem even crazier.


Falcon lacks a kill confirm (except some MU specific one) and also is heavily benefitted in an unknowing meta (landing his fsmash against people that dont expect it to be huge), i dont see him improving much. Though optimising his punishes will help, and improving movement with easier perfect pivots will make him look silky smooth... but thats about it, IMO.

His crazy grab and jab priority makes him a terrible MU for mega man though, he'd be the worst if needles didn't exist.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Dear god ZSS needs to not have a f1 jab. These comparisons to falcon just makes it seem even crazier.


Falcon lacks a kill confirm (except some MU specific one) and also is heavily benefitted in an unknowing meta (landing his fsmash against people that dont expect it to be huge), i dont see him improving much. Though optimising his punishes will help, and improving movement with easier perfect pivots will make him look silky smooth... but thats about it, IMO.

His crazy grab and jab priority makes him a terrible MU for mega man though, he'd be the worst if needles didn't exist.

Doesn't Falling Uair true combo into Knee? As well as Dash Grab?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Dear god ZSS needs to not have a f1 jab. These comparisons to falcon just makes it seem even crazier.


Falcon lacks a kill confirm (except some MU specific one) and also is heavily benefitted in an unknowing meta (landing his fsmash against people that dont expect it to be huge), i dont see him improving much. Though optimising his punishes will help, and improving movement with easier perfect pivots will make him look silky smooth... but thats about it, IMO.

His crazy grab and jab priority makes him a terrible MU for mega man though, he'd be the worst if needles didn't exist.

His players can find ways to improve Their neutral game (not in discoveries of new techs, but new ways to do stuff and MU knowledge).

 

[Megamang]

Doesn't Falling Uair true combo into Knee? As well as Dash Grab?

In some MUs this will kill, but it pales in comparison to the privileged top tiers' confirms.

 

[Nobie]

So I've been talking to Earth on Twitter, and I asked him what he likes about Pit.

Earth replied that he likes how Pit is a character with no glaring weaknesses and an orthodox play style, who wins by observing the opponent's actions and exploiting their weaknesses in neutral.

I think it's an interesting perspective, especially given the whole "why choose anyone other than Sheik or ZSS?"

By the way, I once asked Abadango the same thing on Twitch about Meta Knight. His answer was "0 to Death."

 

[Nu~]

By the way, I once asked Abadango the same thing on Twitch about Meta Knight. His answer was "0 to Death."

*sigh* exactly what I don't like about meta knight lol.

At Apex, Pierce7D did say that abadango is a player that loves to get the absolute most out of punishes. Welp...you don't get much better than death off of a single punish.

And pit's orthodox playstyle is the biggest thing keeping me from using him. He's too...plain. Where's the craziness? The shenanigans?

 

[Megamang]

The shenanigans are way deep offstage :D

 

[Djent]

Aaand we're back at EVO.

 

[HeavyLobster]

So I've been talking to Earth on Twitter, and I asked him what he likes about Pit.

Earth replied that he likes how Pit is a character with no glaring weaknesses and an orthodox play style, who wins by observing the opponent's actions and exploiting their weaknesses in neutral.

I think it's an interesting perspective, especially given the whole "why choose anyone other than Sheik or ZSS?"

By the way, I once asked Abadango the same thing on Twitch about Meta Knight. His answer was "0 to Death."

That kind of thing is why Pit is my recommendation for newer players trying to learn the game, since while he does have throw combos, he has nothing particularly cheesy or overcentralizing to his gameplan. He's what Mario is supposed to be in theory, a solid well-rounded character who thrives off fundamentals, though being able to go deep offstage is of course also nice for newer players who otherwise might not be comfortable going offstage to edgeguard. Dark Pit at one point would've been equally valid, though now his Side-B does start to drift into cheese territory, albeit by no means as bad as your standard high tier stuff.

 

[Blobface]

The shenanigans are way deep offstage :D

Offstage is the realm of shenanigans, great place; really good restaurants too.

 

[Nu~]

Aaand we're back at EVO.

And no customs...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

That kind of thing is why Pit is my recommendation for newer players trying to learn the game, since while he does have throw combos, he has nothing particularly cheesy or overcentralizing to his gameplan. He's what Mario is supposed to be in theory, a solid well-rounded character who thrives off fundamentals, though being able to go deep offstage is of course also nice for newer players who otherwise might not be comfortable going offstage to edgeguard. Dark Pit at one point would've been equally valid, though now his Side-B does start to drift into cheese territory, albeit by no means as bad as your standard high tier stuff.

I think they both are excellent choices for beginning characters and lifelong teachers of fundamentals. If I were to teach a group of beginners into competitive smash, I think I'd ship them all mario (since he's the most famous character and stuf). I would have them completely focused on him until they know how to utilize majority of his moveset well and I would put them against each other. After I play them, I'll determine if they graduate my smash academy and they then can choose what character they want to main.

 

[Sinister Slush]

And no customs...

Technically, customs are allowed if the community wants them. But really, who wants customs other than Palutena mains or the Mii's.

Which brings up another thing Wizard said I believe, if Customs wanted/allowed no Mii's allowed cause it is it's own separate thing or however he worded it.
I DON'T KNOW, I GOT BACK TO MY COMPUTER AS SOON AS THE CUSTOM TALK STARTED

 

[UberMadman]

I just had a weird shower thought about the EVO announcements...

Pikachu is a playable fighter in more games than anyone else, tied with Ryu.

 

[Radical Larry]

Can we at least have Link's Boomerang as an option versus his Gale Boomerang? If ANY custom should be ALLOWED, it has to be Link's Custom Side Special 2, Boomerang, due to the fact that it's more balanced than any other custom in the game and brings back what people have wanted Link to have since Brawl.

So please, if we advocate any customs, it should, at the extreme least, start with Link's Boomerang. If we go with everyone having customs, then it'll be nice to see. If we go with players saying no, I'll try my best to advocate why Link's Boomerang custom should be allowed.

 

[Nu~]

Technically, customs are allowed if the community wants them. But really, who wants customs other than Palutena mains or the Mii's.

Which brings up another thing Wizard said I believe, if Customs wanted/allowed no Mii's allowed cause it is it's own separate thing or however he worded it.
I DON'T KNOW, I GOT BACK TO MY COMPUTER AS SOON AS THE CUSTOM TALK STARTED

https://twitter.com/xd1x/status/692195889838952448
With D1 on Twitter talking about how he's going to be the representative for the smash 4 community, I doubt we will get them. D1 is also anti custom unfortunately.

 

[ARGHETH]

Can we at least have Link's Boomerang as an option versus his Gale Boomerang? If ANY custom should be ALLOWED, it has to be Link's Custom Side Special 2, Boomerang, due to the fact that it's more balanced than any other custom in the game and brings back what people have wanted Link to have since Brawl.

So please, if we advocate any customs, it should, at the extreme least, start with Link's Boomerang. If we go with everyone having customs, then it'll be nice to see. If we go with players saying no, I'll try my best to advocate why Link's Boomerang custom should be allowed.

Umm, no. There a ton of customs that have as good a claim as Melee Boomerang.

 

[Radical Larry]

Umm, no. There a ton of customs that have as good a claim as Melee Boomerang.

Instead of saying there are, give a comprehensive list and in-depth reasoning for each.

 

[Nu~]

Instead of saying there are, give a comprehensive list and in-depth reasoning for each.

Like you did for yours?

 

[Megamang]

That list and reasoning behind it, and the ensuing argument, is the reason we can't just allow some customs. There is no fair way to determine who deserves what customs and who doesnt. Balanced != fair, also. In the case of any rule, imagine explaining it to a non player. If it takes a while, seems convoluted, or is determined by a random group of people on a forum, its probably a bad rule.

 

[PK Gaming]

Will do if you're more specific about what you want me to explain.

I'll take you up on that offer. If it's okay with you, i'd like to see your top 15 character list.

 

[Strong-Arm]

So have opinions on Mewtwo changed at all? The buffs he got were amazing and he has a ton going for him.

 

[ARGHETH]

Instead of saying there are, give a comprehensive list and in-depth reasoning for each.

Spoiler

Marth - Crescent Slash improves horizontal recovery, and gives Marth/Lucina a kill off grab (aside from Uthrow).
Robin - Speed Thunder gives Robin more options against faster characters.
Duck Hunt - Zigzag Shot, which Dunnobro's talked about a lot in the past. I could pull up some quotes if you want.
Charizard - Dragon Rush is better than Flare Blitz as a recovery.
I'm not going through all of them.
All of these improve an aspect of characters lacking in those areas. What does Boomerang give Link that makes it so much more needed than any of these? Why is it so special?
(Also, I'm pretty sure you think that Link's already viable, which makes it doubly odd).

Customs are really subjective by nature, though, and I"ll probably just stop here because there's a thread for this.

So have opinions on Mewtwo changed at all? The buffs he got were amazing and he has a ton going for him.

Kind of...most people likely think he's better now, but I remember some Mewtwo mains saying that he was fine before and didn't get that much better with the changes he got last patch.

 

[ARISTOS]

Peach is kinda overrated. A lot of people see high-tier potential in her that she doesn't have.

SlayerZ and Umeki are gdlk.

Interested to see your thoughts.

is worse than but equal to about .

Not some godslaying high tier but a pretty good character nonetheless.