Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Baby_Sneak]

From my personal experience, are significantly better online due to lag and these characters can capitalize hard on any sort of late input. In my opinion, does terrible against anyone who can consistently keep him out. If their close quarters options are limited, Mac's going to have the upper hand. This is why I'd argue that characters like are in for a bad time if they can't get Little Mac off of them. It's still in their favor but holy crap do things get tense, especially if Mac has rage.



The same could be said about ... and ... and ... and ... and ... This could also be applied to and but to a lesser degree.

Fox isn't hard though (no special techs, it's all about getting used to his physics). Lucario isn't too bad, he takes a bit of lab time.

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah, give Robin good mobility. See what happens. Something something Brawl Marth with projectiles that confirm into kills at 90.

 

[HeavyLobster]

From my personal experience, are significantly better online due to lag and these characters can capitalize hard on any sort of late input. In my opinion, does terrible against anyone who can consistently keep him out. If their close quarters options are limited, Mac's going to have the upper hand. This is why I'd argue that characters like are in for a bad time if they can't get Little Mac off of them. It's still in their favor but holy crap do things get tense, especially if Mac has rage.



The same could be said about ... and ... and ... and ... and ... This could also be applied to and but to a lesser degree.

isn't really better online, since he relies heavily on being able to PS in certain MUs. Unlike the other two characters, he's slow and has a more reactive playstyle, which is nerfed in lag. Flame Choke is much stronger online though, and it makes him cheesier there, but not really significantly better. Characters who can control the pace of the match via speed or projectiles are generally stronger online, especially ones who get great reward off it, though single hit power is also a benefit.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Levin aerials. If they had more normal start-up and endlag (and maybe a few less uses, IDK) then Robin wouldn't need to be the slowest character in the game. Not enough to ruin his Arcthunder combos or anything (Uair could probably stay fast anyway) but enough to where he can't just throw them out whenever.

The aerials are, on average, slower on startup than pretty much every other characters' aerial set other than Ike and DDD. Nothing is faster than Frame 9. And Fair is the only aerial with above-average (or is it below-average, idk) endlag. They're just compensated by their amazing power, disjoint, duration, autocancels, and hitbox arcs. In a realm of outliers, the startup and endlag are outliers precisely because they are not outliers.

 

[LancerStaff]

The aerials are, on average, slower on startup than pretty much every other characters' aerial set other than Ike and DDD. Nothing is faster than Frame 9. And Fair is the only aerial with above-average (or is it below-average, idk) endlag. They're just compensated by their amazing power, disjoint, duration, autocancels, and hitbox arcs. In a realm of outliers, the startup and endlag are outliers precisely because they are not outliers.

Don't compare them to other aerials, compare them to smashes. Didn't Sakurai call them aerial smash attacks at one point?

 

[False Sense]

Don't compare them to other aerials, compare them to smashes. Didn't Sakurai call them aerial smash attacks at one point?

But they aren't Smashes. They're aerials. The Levin Sword grants them power similar to that of Smashes, but they are aerial attacks by every definition.

 

[LancerStaff]

But they aren't Smashes. They're aerials. The Levin Sword grants them power similar to that of Smashes, but they are aerial attacks by every definition.

Talk about missing the point... Like, really, does it matter what they're classified as?

They're moves with a ridiculous power to speed ratio. Thus, Robin needs to be the slowest character in the game for balance. If his Levin aerials were slower somehow then he wouldn't need to have the worst mobility in the game.

 

[Aaron1997]

I would like to see the argument with Jiggs. Just as slow on the ground, Slow/weaker Aerials besides Nair, Range is far worst and Light af. Only thing that is backing it up is the best air speed in the game. And that's Never be enough baring Massive buffs

 

[Asdioh]

That Peach infinite is actually gross. Best to protect it from Sakurai if you want to keep it :x

The aerials are, on average, slower on startup than pretty much every other characters' aerial set other than Ike and DDD. Nothing is faster than Frame 9. And Fair is the only aerial with above-average (or is it below-average, idk) endlag. They're just compensated by their amazing power, disjoint, duration, autocancels, and hitbox arcs. In a realm of outliers, the startup and endlag are outliers precisely because they are not outliers.

If you total up the startup of all 5 aerials, Robin has Kirby beat by 1 frame. It makes sense though, Kirby's average aerial startup needs to be slower to compensate for their massive range and disjoint.

:3

Nah but seriously, Robin's aerials are cool and balanced. He's an overall balanced character, he's one of the few I think actually make sense with the low mobility. I think in general the characters with super bad mobility could use a little more (Jiggs, Ganondorf, Kirby) since it's so important in smash, and they generally don't have anything overwhelming enough to justify their low speed, but Robin's someone that works well despite the speed, after all the buffs.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Thaaat's not quite what I meant. When I said that they are based on their source material, I meant when they literally have a moving sprite or model to look at for reference. Charizard exists as a bunch of numbers in Pokemon, not a controllable active character. Also, Charizard isn't that fast in Pokemon in the first place. He's more of an all-rounder with some decent offensive power (also thank whatever god you have that Stealth Rock isn't a thing in Smash Bros).

Actually Charizard is really different from Pokemon, in Pokemon his speed is decent, same as Mews speed and Salamence, his defenses are really bad, specially the physical defense, his special attack is his best atribute, but he also has a decent, below average physical attack, I think his aerials should be the best part of his kit

 

[Megamang]

Zard would really benefit, and make sense with, his old glide back.

Robin with high run speed would never let some characters down between levin uair and his projectiles. Also, being able to cover his approaches with arc thunder would be insanity. I think he is a good example of how a character can overcome terrible mobility. The true damning combination is terrible mobility not compensated by decent frame data.

 

[Y2Kay]

If Charizard got a buff to aerial mobility like others did in 1.1.3, he'd be all set.

 

[Soul Train]

I think in general the characters with super bad mobility could use a little more (Jiggs, Ganondorf, Kirby) since it's so important in smash, and they generally don't have anything overwhelming enough to justify their low speed, but Robin's someone that works well despite the speed, after all the buffs.

Don't forget , who is so easily zoned out due to his huge size and the worst airspeed in the game. Then with such slow and glitchy close-range attacks, D3 can't threaten up close either, but again due to bad speed and a huge hitbox doesn't have the tools to get away from rushdown. He loses up close and far away, so a mobility buff to SOMETHING would be amazing, to help him sometimes get to his (very narrow) threatening range.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Im curious about Wario. I don't really know a ton about the character as there aren't many good ones in My region.

It seems consensus that he is top 15 in most people's tier lists. I am not saying he shouldn't be, I am simply pleading ignorance. I know he has an amazing command grab and great recovery, and of course the fart speaks for itself. So, is he rated so highly, similarily to Lucario, because he has a powerful gimmick that looms over the battle? Is that the major reason?

I'm just gonna give a quick answer but his overall kit is strong and he plays his game well. Strong, reliable aerials on top of a fantastic aerial mobility gives him a good air game and makes him comfortable playing air footsies and poking/counterpoking. He also excels at edgeguarding and covering ledge options between his aerials, air mobility and bike. He has a really good set of specials, with bike being a multi purpose tool that allows him to recover, escape bad situations, camp and gives him more mobility options, and bite is an aerial command grab that allows him to mix up his game and condition his opponent to guess his options.

Waft ties it all together, but he's not that reliant on it. He's still very strong in other areas. He's a solid character, but bad range, few reliable KO options and low damage output means he has to work harder than other characters.

 

[RonNewcomb]

This question is For Fun, not for glory:

Assuming EVO is customs-off, what if EVO allowed customs by "Gentleman's Agreement", similar to how banned stages are allowed if both players agree. What MUs might see both players agreeing to customs-on? Obviously not any MUs involving (who always says no) or (whose opponent always says no).

v. ?
v. ?

 

[Megamang]

He isnt a combo machine, but i wouldnt call his combo game bad. Especially considering he has some confirms into waft. Nair is an incredible tool, Reflex made a great post somewhere about its usage and safety against each character, really eye opening and improved my casual wario a lot.

He doesn't rely on hitting waft, but it constantly does work for him. Its existence forces approaches, which is amazing for wario. With his range, he really wouldn't be great at approaching the whole game, but he accels at what he does due in part to waft.

 

[Zannabluke]

i just read sakurai's response to why shoulder ram was changed to a big punch and it got me thinking how much better wario would be with his brawl fsmash

frame 7, superarmor, trascendence priority, insane kb and damage. damn if i miss that broken move

 

[Spinosaurus]

He isnt a combo machine, but i wouldnt call his combo game bad. Especially considering he has some confirms into waft. Nair is an incredible tool, Reflex made a great post somewhere about its usage and safety against each character, really eye opening and improved my casual wario a lot.

He doesn't rely on hitting waft, but it constantly does work for him. Its existence forces approaches, which is amazing for wario. With his range, he really wouldn't be great at approaching the whole game, but he accels at what he does due in part to waft.

I edited that out because I mostly meant low damage output. He's definitely got combos, there's just a lot of variables to consider.

Fast fall up air is really good and is better than nair in most ways for comboing, but you have to be a lot more precise, especially against shorter character.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Wario's nair is a really stupid move. Its frame data is so backwards compared to every other move, you basically always want to hit with it from the whackest angle and with the weakest part to make sure its knockback becomes as inconsequential as possible. Then it starts to set stuff up, it almost works a bit like tires did in Brawl [not really but it gives you somewhat of an idea how it works].

 

[Nobie]

So I was thinking about Marth, the dissatisfaction a lot of his players (present and former) seem to have towards him, and what might be the most sensible buffs for the character.

The way I see it, there are two aspects to Smash 4 Marth. First, he's designed to be unable to act like the moving wall he was in previous games. There were deliberate elements of this Marth put in place that prevent you from playing him like in Melee or Brawl. Second, his moveset and frame data are all geared towards dedicated whiff punishing. Between his fast startup, large disjoints and less overall range, long cooldown, inability to fair the competition to death, and of course the tipper, he seems to be the most whiff punish-oriented character in the game in the sense that he's also not meant to just press buttons. Pressing buttons as Marth is risky, or requires you to have a good gauge of your opponent's thought patterns.

Whatever formula this is, it isn't getting nearly the success of the old Marths. Over and over again, I see Marths like Mr. E fight and keep up for a good portion of the match, then something happens and it's a struggle to come back. Looking at the Marth board, there's a lot of lamenting as to his more ground-based game plan in Smash 4.

Whether or not Marth truly needs buffs, there are two solutions I see. One is to make him more like old Marths. Give him short hop double fair etc. etc. However, if Marth is meant to be an elegant fencer who dances with danger (i.e. whiff punishing), then I think what Marth really needs is just slightly better reward on hit, kind of like what Shulk got on his aerials. Up the damage on a bunch of his attacks by 1 or 2% so that the opponent gets into tipper f-smash death range that much earlier. Make it so that every time Marth wins the neutral, the opponent just REGRETS having stuck out a limb. The extra 1 or 2% here and there would also set up better the late game plan, which is the powerful up throw.

By the way, not trying to open up an old can of worms, but one of the biggest disagreements in Smash 4 that I used to see is whether or not Marth has a good neutral or a bad one. Many players (including myself) argued towards one or the other, and my feeling was that Marth's neutral is strong but his advantaged state needs work. Hence the buff idea above. However, we're over a year in, there have been a ton of patches that have changed the properties of the game as well as Marth, and we have a lot more knowledge. So, I'm curious as to what people think of Marth's neutral now.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Marth is just pretty average and mediocre all around. He has a really good, underutilized jab though but that's pretty much all there's left to 'discover' about him imo.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

You guys were talking about Peach a few pages ago... Despite being "just" a friendly, this match shows how technical Peach can get. I don't think I saw any implementation of that in a match yet (in a successful way, because Umeki couldn't end the combo vs. Ryo at G3).
Personally, I see footstool combos as high difficulty, high reward abilities you implement in your playstyle. Pretty cool, but not that optimal (at least in the current meta)!

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think the one thing Marth could use a lot is a combo throw (with a good useful combo/no dthrow) and a kill setup

 

[BetaDjinn]

Assuming EVO is customs-off, what if EVO allowed customs by "Gentleman's Agreement", similar to how banned stages are allowed if both players agree.

I highly doubt that would be a thing in a no-customs EVO. The reason customs are out isn't balance but logistics. I don't know what kind of setups they'll be running but there's a good chance they won't even have all customs. Also TOs generally want you to finish your set ASAP and messing with customs is extra time wasted. In an event with so many games saving time is so important.

And yeah, chances are customs will be off.

I could be totally wrong though lol

 

[ARISTOS]

So I was thinking about Marth, the dissatisfaction a lot of his players (present and former) seem to have towards him, and what might be the most sensible buffs for the character.

The way I see it, there are two aspects to Smash 4 Marth. First, he's designed to be unable to act like the moving wall he was in previous games. There were deliberate elements of this Marth put in place that prevent you from playing him like in Melee or Brawl. Second, his moveset and frame data are all geared towards dedicated whiff punishing. Between his fast startup, large disjoints and less overall range, long cooldown, inability to fair the competition to death, and of course the tipper, he seems to be the most whiff punish-oriented character in the game in the sense that he's also not meant to just press buttons. Pressing buttons as Marth is risky, or requires you to have a good gauge of your opponent's thought patterns.

Whatever formula this is, it isn't getting nearly the success of the old Marths. Over and over again, I see Marths like Mr. E fight and keep up for a good portion of the match, then something happens and it's a struggle to come back. Looking at the Marth board, there's a lot of lamenting as to his more ground-based game plan in Smash 4.

Whether or not Marth truly needs buffs, there are two solutions I see. One is to make him more like old Marths. Give him short hop double fair etc. etc. However, if Marth is meant to be an elegant fencer who dances with danger (i.e. whiff punishing), then I think what Marth really needs is just slightly better reward on hit, kind of like what Shulk got on his aerials. Up the damage on a bunch of his attacks by 1 or 2% so that the opponent gets into tipper f-smash death range that much earlier. Make it so that every time Marth wins the neutral, the opponent just REGRETS having stuck out a limb. The extra 1 or 2% here and there would also set up better the late game plan, which is the powerful up throw.

By the way, not trying to open up an old can of worms, but one of the biggest disagreements in Smash 4 that I used to see is whether or not Marth has a good neutral or a bad one. Many players (including myself) argued towards one or the other, and my feeling was that Marth's neutral is strong but his advantaged state needs work. Hence the buff idea above. However, we're over a year in, there have been a ton of patches that have changed the properties of the game as well as Marth, and we have a lot more knowledge. So, I'm curious as to what people think of Marth's neutral now.

Pretty good summation.

Marth's neutral is good, very good even, but once he's in disadvantage he can't get out except reset to ledge against most top/high tiers and even in advantage he's not that great unless you are ending stocks at 60.

When works it looks beautiful and you feel like a god. But then you get opened up...

 

[ARISTOS]

delete this whoops

 

[Blobface]

The same reason Ganondorf and Little Mac are utter garbage; because Sakurai decided to balance this game for more casual play; hence why Robin is basically made for standing and spamming projectiles, because that's a braindead strategy that anybody can use. Sure, Ganon and Mac suck in competetive play, but in casual, items-on FFAs, they're some of the best characters in the game.

I know that my last 20-30 posts have been about how bad Ganon is and how badly he needs buffs, but... I'd never say he's "utter garbage". All his normals sans jab, grab, and U-tilt are downright absurd, and even a single one of them could break most any other character if transplanted.

Ganon is very well designed honestly. Making a character like Ganon work in FFA's and 1v1 is very hard, but they've done it very well by requiring him to outsmart his opponents to win in 1v1. He's just a few undertuned moves away from that ideal, and that's not really all that bad now. Certain moves not being threatening doesn't mean they can't hit people, after all.

 

[Big-Cat]

You guys were talking about Peach a few pages ago... Despite being "just" a friendly, this match shows how technical Peach can get. I don't think I saw any implementation of that in a match yet (in a successful way, because Umeki couldn't end the combo vs. Ryo at G3).
Personally, I see footstool combos as high difficulty, high reward abilities you implement in your playstyle. Pretty cool, but not that optimal (at least in the current meta)!

I think it's really hard to see footstool combos being optimal. Setting up to get footstools? I think that's going to be characters like Greninja.

Also, that combo is like RSF only harder and even less reward per hit.

 

[Megamang]

He got it out of a grab!

And reward per hit doesnt matter, people will commit to learning death combos eventually. Can you not SDI the uair to make it harder to execute though?

 

[FullMoon]

If that footstool infinite becomes standard then it's another thing Greninja can conveniently Shadow Sneak out since the first hit of Up-Air doesn't send you into tumble =V

 

[Vipermoon]

So I was thinking about Marth, the dissatisfaction a lot of his players (present and former) seem to have towards him, and what might be the most sensible buffs for the character.

The way I see it, there are two aspects to Smash 4 Marth. First, he's designed to be unable to act like the moving wall he was in previous games. There were deliberate elements of this Marth put in place that prevent you from playing him like in Melee or Brawl. Second, his moveset and frame data are all geared towards dedicated whiff punishing. Between his fast startup, large disjoints and less overall range, long cooldown, inability to fair the competition to death, and of course the tipper, he seems to be the most whiff punish-oriented character in the game in the sense that he's also not meant to just press buttons. Pressing buttons as Marth is risky, or requires you to have a good gauge of your opponent's thought patterns.

Whatever formula this is, it isn't getting nearly the success of the old Marths. Over and over again, I see Marths like Mr. E fight and keep up for a good portion of the match, then something happens and it's a struggle to come back. Looking at the Marth board, there's a lot of lamenting as to his more ground-based game plan in Smash 4.

Whether or not Marth truly needs buffs, there are two solutions I see. One is to make him more like old Marths. Give him short hop double fair etc. etc. However, if Marth is meant to be an elegant fencer who dances with danger (i.e. whiff punishing), then I think what Marth really needs is just slightly better reward on hit, kind of like what Shulk got on his aerials. Up the damage on a bunch of his attacks by 1 or 2% so that the opponent gets into tipper f-smash death range that much earlier. Make it so that every time Marth wins the neutral, the opponent just REGRETS having stuck out a limb. The extra 1 or 2% here and there would also set up better the late game plan, which is the powerful up throw.

By the way, not trying to open up an old can of worms, but one of the biggest disagreements in Smash 4 that I used to see is whether or not Marth has a good neutral or a bad one. Many players (including myself) argued towards one or the other, and my feeling was that Marth's neutral is strong but his advantaged state needs work. Hence the buff idea above. However, we're over a year in, there have been a ton of patches that have changed the properties of the game as well as Marth, and we have a lot more knowledge. So, I'm curious as to what people think of Marth's neutral now.

I wouldn't like to see a more powerful Marth. Yes, his damage output is too low but he doesn't need more knockback. You're right that previous Marth's were fortresses. Melee's was a fortress and a kill setup monster. I joined a Brawl side event at a tourney last Saturday because I love Brawl of course... how easy it was to gain and keep stage control made me feel so fuzzy inside all over again. But it was fine because all of the characters that I was going against were also pretty OP (Falco, Ice Climbers, another Marth, and of course MK).

The solution is to keep Marth basically the same as Melee and Brawl (but with less grab reward) except in a Smash 4 kind of way (less OP). Why? Because that is the Marth that everybody loves. He's currently a shell of his Brawl counterpart with enormous deliberate nerfs across his entire moveset. They over nerfed and over nerfed and didn't stop till the poor boy was within an inch of his life. If you pause the game and look closely, you can still see the bruises.

For anyone that is interested, read my "perfect Marth" post that is in my signature. As I described in that post, you don't need to take frames off of Fair or give him a combo game off of grabs to make him good.

Marth is just pretty average and mediocre all around. He has a really good, underutilized jab though but that's pretty much all there's left to 'discover' about him imo.

His Jab isn't that good. Underutilized depends on who you look at. Mr. E? Yes, I agree.

I realized over time (especially as people have gotten used to the Jab) that Jab to Ftilt Utilt Fsmash and even Dancing Blade aren't viable options. In a Marth ditto, I ALWAYS jump out. Any good player does the same or something just as good (Jab isn't safe on hit lol). That's where Jab to Fair and Nair come in. Specifically Fair can start tech chases and if you get the correct reads it can lead to a lot of good stuff and even a stock.

Even simply doing Jab 2 can give you a good enough positional advantage to get things moving.

The biggest issues is Jab 1's 28 total frames. But I wouldn't change it because I don't want to sit there spamming Jab. I already sort of do that with Dtilt lol.

I think the one thing Marth could use a lot is a combo throw (with a good useful combo/no dthrow) and a kill setup

Like I said above. He can be good without a great grab and kill set-up game. They don't want him to have these things along with double aerials and real hitboxes (the hitboxes we cannot ignore, however; he will need those to be good). There exists a Marth that fills our criteria for "a good Marth in a Smash Bros game" (because that is a requirement with how good he is in every other Smash game and Smash mods; his design is too good to not be good) and their criteria with the "he can't have this, this, and this."

Pretty good summation.

Marth's neutral is good, very good even, but once he's in disadvantage he can't get out except reset to ledge against most top/high tiers and even in advantage he's not that great unless you are ending stocks at 60.

When works it looks beautiful and you feel like a god. But then you get opened up...

Everything you said is "this^" worthy. Good stuff. Except his neutral is only good, not very good. This is why Diddy is tied for Marth's worst MUs.

 

[Big-Cat]

He got it out of a grab!

And reward per hit doesnt matter, people will commit to learning death combos eventually. Can you not SDI the uair to make it harder to execute though?

It's quite probably that this may only work on Sheik and a select few other characters.

 

[Yikarur]

Don't you know the video of my Smash Corner? It's pretty old already.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkr7n3ecrFk

 

[Luigi player]

It's quite probably that this may only work on Sheik and a select few other characters.

Let me link you the video from my smash corner about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hkr7n3ecrFk

In the description you can see who it works on. Only 12 characters aren't harmed by it (most of the ones because they're too small).

Greninja is too 'small' for it anyway.

Edit: nooo, Yikninja!

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah, give Robin good mobility. See what happens. Something something Brawl Marth with projectiles that confirm into kills at 90.

I read this post in Morty's voice and started laughing like a hyena

 

[JesterJaded]

People will commit to learning death combos eventually.

Abadango and Nairo would like to have a word with you.

Does anyone here feel like Footstools are underutilized in competitive play, or that they'll be implemented more as the meta develops? They aren't Melee Fox tier difficult to pull off (particularly the ones you can get from grab), and most of them have combos to net 60+ percent.

 

[Megamang]

Footstools are hard to use not only due to precision requirements, they are underwhelming because they lose to any button at all. I agree we will see more footstools out of grabs / setup moves.

 

[Ghostbone]

Throughout brawl people kept going on about how players would eventually utilise footstools for combos.

It never really happened lol, a combination of DI or SDI basically nullified any footstool setup, I'd imagine it's a similar scenario for smash 4 (except for something like that peach infinite)

 

[Teshie U]

Throughout brawl people kept going on about how players would eventually utilise footstools for combos.

It never really happened lol, a combination of DI or SDI basically nullified any footstool setup, I'd imagine it's a similar scenario for smash 4 (except for something like that peach infinite)

Brawl has way less histun and way more SDI. On the rare occasion someone was in enough hitstun to guarantee a footstool, you probably couldn't stop them from SDIing really far away if they knew what you were planning.

 

[Blobface]

Something that's not really utilized at all by a lot of characters with meh landing options: If someone is standing beneath you and they're shielding to cover you landing, you can footstool jump* to give you access to more time for more mixups, and more importantly saving your double jump.

*You'll vault into the air, but they'll stay in their shield.

I feel like a few footstool combos are definitely usable and viable, but I'm doubtful they'll ever become a significant factor in the meta, affecting every character.