Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Mr. Johan]

Then the Sheiks and Zamuses and other high tier character mains will work on a lower rung character specifically for those two matchups, and the cycle revolves around those two sets of counterpicks.

It's a similar scenario to when the Diddies and Sheiks and Zamuses had Luigi pockets for matchups they personally were uncomfortable with.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Imagine this, if everyone agrees that a meta without Zamus and Sheik will be healthier, was is stopping us from banning them?

 

[L9999]

That they are not Brawl MK. And what good will it do? Rosaluma would just take over and it will be full circle back to 3DS days...

 

[Wintropy]

Imagine this, if everyone agrees that a meta without Zamus and Sheik will be healthier, was is stopping us from banning them?

Not everybody wants them gone, though. If anything, the vast majority of players are content to deal with them, they're just a tad frustrated that Sheik and ZSS are a bit too good to be truly healthy.

A character should only be banned if they're objectively stronger than everybody else in the cast, to the extent that it becomes just about pointless to play anybody else. There were calls for an MK ban in Brawl because it was nigh-on impossible for the vast majority of the roster to beat him, and he even dominated most of the other top-tiers in competitive play; compare that to Melee, a game with a character that's widely agreed to be the objective best in the game, but who's kept in place by other characters that can reasonably expect to compete with him.

In other words, a character needs to be broken beyond repair in order for a ban to be even considered. We didn't ban Diddy even when he was taking names left, right and centre (though I know there were calls for it from some quarters), and he was way more bonkers than Sheik could ever hope to be. Sheik and ZSS are strong characters, and it's fair to say they're stronger than the vast majority (if not the entirety) of the roster, but that doesn't make them god-killing abominations that need to be banned in order for a healthy meta to develop. Sheik's been the dominant character for nearly a year now, and despite having consistently impressive results and no disadvantageous matchups (in theory and in practice), the meta has developed just fine. Other characters still get to do their thing, and while a good deal of characters stand to gain from a Sheik / ZSS nerf, neither of these top-tiers are really invalidating the rest of the roster in the same way Brawl MK and (debatably) pre-patch Diddy did.

If it was a case where they were both virtually unbeatable and the gap between "these two" and "everybody else" was too sizable to enable good competition, then there may be grounds to kick them out. But that has not yet happened and there's no good reason to believe it ever will happen. At the absolute most, we may get to a Melee 20XX state where only the Top 10 or so are in any way viable, but I don't think it will ever come down to Sheik and ZSS being the only viable characters in the game.

There's absolutely no reason to ban them. It's not going to happen, nor should it ever.

 

[wedl!!]

Because that's not why you ban things.

Are Sheik and Zero Suit clearly the best characters? Without a doubt. Do they impact the health of the meta? Debatable, but they definitely do impede on the viability of a lot of characters. Are they broken to the degrees of Super Turbo Akuma where they centralize the game to the point where no one is good besides them? No.

 

[Big-Cat]

Talk to me about Bowser. I want to know your thoughts on his current place in the meta and whether or not he has potential to develop further now that he has a viable gameplan.

I know you're a vocal proponent of the idea that Sheik and ZSS need to be nerfed for the continued health of the game (and I am neither going to agree nor disagree with that sentiment), but let's just presume for the sake of debate that they're never nerfed and they remain this way indefinitely.

That being said, where do you see Bowser going from here, and what does he need to do to remain a consistent threat? Do you think it's possible for him to find a comfortable niche for himself as a respectable opponent, or will his matchup with "the queens" hold him back from any kind of distinction?

He's still going to have trouble against the queens, but Bowser's massive reward potential really balanced out a lot of matchups. I think somewhere down the line he could be the gatekeeper character.

You can argue he's susceptible to zoning but everyone here forgets necessary drawbacks from a design standpoint. That and the community's speed fetish.

 

[Metal B]

If thinks ever become too bad with some characters and there will be no patches in sight, there is still the possibility for "community patches" in form of forced Custome Moves. Shiek and ZSS could already be nerfed, by exchanging there there best speical-moves with other weaker customs. On the other side weaker characters could be buffed by allowing them to use there better moves.

There just needs to be committee, who decided, which character has or can use a specific build.

 

[Tizio Random]

If thinks ever become too bad with some characters and there will be no patches in sight, there is still the possibility for "community patches" in form of forced Custome Moves. Shiek and ZSS could already be nerfed, by exchanging there there best speical-moves with other weaker customs. On the other side weaker characters could be buffed by allowing them to use there better moves.

There just needs to be committee, who decided, which character has or can use a specific build.

I see your point but forcing complex bans in a game isn't good. The limit in which we can make fair decisions is really arbitrary and it sets a precedent that will eventually degenerate. It will become a "Why this and not this?" every second. Decisions like bans must be precise like "Ban this character", not "You can use Sheik but only with x, y, z".

 

[LancerStaff]

If thinks ever become too bad with some characters and there will be no patches in sight, there is still the possibility for "community patches" in form of forced Custome Moves. Shiek and ZSS could already be nerfed, by exchanging there there best speical-moves with other weaker customs. On the other side weaker characters could be buffed by allowing them to use there better moves.

There just needs to be committee, who decided, which character has or can use a specific build.

Rather see a stage selection committee then balancing by custom moves.

Just a predetermined game 1 stage picked to be truly even, and then some counterpicks. Against many characters Sheik's first stage would probably be Lylat since it mostly stops needles for example. Of course there probably wouldn't be a good counterpick past that but then we just pick Lylat again.

Not that I think either has a realistic chance of happening just short of Sakurai patching it in...

 

[Metal B]

I see your point but forcing complex bans in a game isn't good. The limit in which we can make fair decisions is really arbitrary and it sets a precedent that will eventually degenerate. It will become a "Why this and not this?" every second. Decisions like bans must be precise like "Ban this character", not "You can use Sheik but only with x, y, z".

Technically the community already forces play styles and options out of the game. We ban stages, items and modes, which doesn't fit our sense of competition. Why should we stop in face of the possibility of a more balance game with exchanging moves? Banning a characters is always the most extreme option, no fighting community evener want to use .... but just changing some attributes, should be no big deal, if its ever needed.

Rather see a stage selection committee then balancing by custom moves.
Just a predetermined game 1 stage picked to be truly even, and then some counterpicks. Against many characters Sheik's first stage would probably be Lylat since it mostly stops needles for example. Of course there probably wouldn't be a good counterpick past that but then we just pick Lylat again.
Not that I think either has a realistic chance of happening just short of Sakurai patching it in...

Another point, where the community could use all the option, which are presented in the game. The stage editor looks good enough, has all needed option and the stages can be published online for everybody. All the community needs are some trusted people, who give their okay for some new stages. Then you can design Counterpick-Stages for every character class (or even character) to have a much more balanced competitive environment.

In my opinion we are still one patch and some months away for those more extreme solutions, but there are some good possibilities.

 

[C0rvus]

I remember back when the game was new, thinking, "Oh the gap can be closed by allowing low tiers a set of standard equipment." Those were simpler times for sure. A very silly idea, but not one to totally be dismissed. We have a unique opportunity in this game; characters have more options. Much farther down the road, allowing certain characters custom move use or a piece of equipment could be an option. But that's for much later, when we have a finished game, and the meta has settled a bit.

 

[JesterJaded]

I remember back when the game was new, thinking, "Oh the gap can be closed by allowing low tiers a set of standard equipment." Those were simpler times for sure. A very silly idea, but not one to totally be dismissed. We have a unique opportunity in this game; characters have more options. Much farther down the road, allowing certain characters custom move use or a piece of equipment could be an option. But that's for much later, when we have a finished game, and the meta has settled a bit.

If we're going with hypothetical tournament equipment, I'd much prefer a means to include Smooth Lander without any stat buffs; while high tiers would benefit from this as well, characters without decent autocancels would become much, much more viable (almost all of low tier).

 

[Stringsbatman]

Not sure if this is the place to discuss but I was wondering if either of my mains are competitive. I play lucas and D3 and I do well against my friends and other local players. I was thinking about going to tournaments this year to try and become competitive but I don't want to waste my time if my mains are widely considered garbage. I know zss and shiek are considered top tier bit are other characters viable?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Honestly? You should determine that yourself. People here are gonna give you like fifty-bajillion different impressions. Base it off of your own experience.

ah to hell with it, my initial reply's good enough


Smooth Criminal

 

[Luco]

Not sure if this is the place to discuss but I was wondering if either of my mains are competitive. I play lucas and D3 and I do well against my friends and other local players. I was thinking about going to tournaments this year to try and become competitive but I don't want to waste my time if my mains are widely considered garbage. I know zss and shiek are considered top tier bit are other characters viable?

It probably shouldn't go here, but it's a pretty honest question. Like Smoothie said, you'll want to figure out the competitive viability of those characters yourself. Different people will have different ideas of where Lucas and D3 are. At most levels of play barring high and top, I've found it depends on the ability of the player far more than it does the character, but there may come a point where you have to make that choice.

And Metal B we definitely can alter the game as much as we want to suit our wants and ideals, but the question is how much should we? There's a big idea of authenticity that people want to stick to - do we HAVE to edit the game to keep it competitive? If the answer is yes, then and only then do we do it (with the weird case of customs sticking out but that's its own kettle of fish). You also have to consider logistics - if every character needs to have a balanced set of equipment, then you need to be able to obtain balanced stats that affect the character in a particular way on every competitive console and apply it to the relevant characters, which is... hard.

But it could theoretically be argued "screw authenticity, we need to adhere to as much of a balancing act as possible." Which might be a legitimate counter to the first argument (maybe), but logistics still needs to be considered there.

 

[Metal B]

I remember back when the game was new, thinking, "Oh the gap can be closed by allowing low tiers a set of standard equipment." Those were simpler times for sure. A very silly idea, but not one to totally be dismissed. We have a unique opportunity in this game; characters have more options. Much farther down the road, allowing certain characters custom move use or a piece of equipment could be an option. But that's for much later, when we have a finished game, and the meta has settled a bit.

Equipment would have been an possible and extreme solution. But the idea fails, because all items have an random attributes and you can't get the specific items., if you want to. There just too many variables. Even so Costumes Moves also need l little to collect, but there are consistent and shareable.

If we're going with hypothetical tournament equipment, I'd much prefer a means to include Smooth Lander without any stat buffs; while high tiers would benefit from this as well, characters without decent autocancels would become much, much more viable (almost all of low tier).

Smooth Lander would change the physic and pretty much anything about the game, besides all the work to collect the right items. It changes too much and you almost have to start from zero with the meta-game.

 

[Smudges]

Not sure if this is the place to discuss but I was wondering if either of my mains are competitive. I play lucas and D3 and I do well against my friends and other local players. I was thinking about going to tournaments this year to try and become competitive but I don't want to waste my time if my mains are widely considered garbage. I know zss and shiek are considered top tier bit are other characters viable?

Like those above me said, that's mostly for you to determine yourself, and it your results will vary depending on your skill level (God, that sounds like an infomercial... "Results may vary" )

If you ask around, you'll get lots of different impressions, but Lucas is usually considered a Low-Mid tier character, and DDD is usually towards the bottom.

 

[Metal B]

And Metal B we definitely can alter the game as much as we want to suit our wants and ideals, but the question is how much should we? There's a big idea of authenticity that people want to stick to - do we HAVE to edit the game to keep it competitive? If the answer is yes, then and only then do we do it (with the weird case of customs sticking out but that's its own kettle of fish). You also have to consider logistics - if every character needs to have a balanced set of equipment, then you need to be able to obtain balanced stats that affect the character in a particular way on every competitive console and apply it to the relevant characters, which is... hard.

But it could theoretically be argued "screw authenticity, we need to adhere to as much of a balancing act as possible." Which might be a legitimate counter to the first argument (maybe), but logistics still needs to be considered there.

That's why i'm completely against changing the stats through items. Not only because of logistic problems, but you make so many small changes, that you can't really see all possible outcomes without a lot of testing (which is why balancing a game as an developers is hard as nails. Too many option and not enough resources to test them.)
If the community ever needs some balancing, changing out some moves, is much easier to analyse, then changing fundamental elements of a character.

 

[JesterJaded]

Smooth Lander would change the physic and pretty much anything about the game, besides all the work to collect the right items.

I agree that acquiring the right items would make for a very tedious endeavor, which is why I think Smooth Lander should have been a special game mode as opposed to an item ability, considering the degree to which it changes game physics.

It changes too much and you almost have to start from zero with the meta-game.

You would basically have a brand new game, yes, but isn't that a good thing? It would become a more combo-heavy game with more characters having safer options in the neutral, which happens to be a rather large complaint amongst low / mid tier mains that demand patches. It would also, in my opinion, make the game more of a spectator sport, considering the pace of matches would increase overall with disadvantage being even more deadly.

Also, you'd have Melee Marth Cloud. Who doesn't want Melee Marth Cloud?

 

[LancerStaff]

I remember back when the game was new, thinking, "Oh the gap can be closed by allowing low tiers a set of standard equipment." Those were simpler times for sure. A very silly idea, but not one to totally be dismissed. We have a unique opportunity in this game; characters have more options. Much farther down the road, allowing certain characters custom move use or a piece of equipment could be an option. But that's for much later, when we have a finished game, and the meta has settled a bit.

Sadly that won't really work out until save editing becomes easy because equipment is randomly generated outside of the challenge board. And it bans you for "irregular save data" if you try to go online with obviously phony equipment.

If we're going with hypothetical tournament equipment, I'd much prefer a means to include Smooth Lander without any stat buffs; while high tiers would benefit from this as well, characters without decent autocancels would become much, much more viable (almost all of low tier).

Funny, because then Pit would become a monster with easy kill confirms off of his aerials... He'd get his own SH double fair except it'd be Dair then Bair and a fullhop. Wouldn't even need his autocancels anymore. Actually, FFUair > FFUair might be an infinite. Sheik might get it too.

As much fun us Pits would have I'd say it'd do much more harm then good.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I don't know where Omegas are banned, but they're generally legal in my area. Something to consider against run -> shield and dancetrotting:

 

[Vipermoon]

Imagine this, if everyone agrees that a meta without Zamus and Sheik will be healthier, was is stopping us from banning them?

Not that we are allowed to talk about this but this is not even close to considerable.

ZSS and Sheik are only good when the player is good.

MK was good no matter what. So he easily affected the mid level play in tourney and that is why some people wanted to ban him. Even with all that, it isn't justified. No way is Sheik or ZSS's case either.

Now please, no one bring a dumb topic like that up.

 

[wpwood]

Should have made sure I had time to fully explain my thoughts, but back and gonna clear a few things up.

Utilt beats Bouncing Fish?

The point of me saying that was to point out Peach's semi-fast disjointed moves. Utilt and uair cover above and a little in front of Peach and f-tilt will at least trade with aerials (some situations it won, either the late hit or the very tip of the hit box and I'll need to look into it more) and can kill at higher %s and puts opponents above Peach.

Having a 0 to death doesn't give you an advantageous MU against Sheik either. Look at Meta Knight.

Except MK relies on DI reads in his ladder and I think only at certain %s anyway. He doesn't have the easiest time to set up his ladder, relying on dash attacks and up tilts to start it. Peach needs 1 grab at 0 to start her 0-death. Peach plays differently than MK and can deal with certain options better anyway.

From my perspective, one of the strongest points of needles is throwing them out to cover landings, especially at high enough % to knock the enemy back up with the needle kb. So how does Peach safely land against a Sheik that is just standing there within a healthy distance, waiting with fully charged needles?

Landing while Sheik has needles is various levels of difficulty given the stage and how Peach got to where she is (has she already used certain aerial options). Let's just go with FD as the stage so no platforms to try to retreat to. Peach has moves that can air stall but require a bit of a commitment. For instance the first time Toad is used in the air Peach will gain a little height (and it seems to be a net gain in height on FAF). So dropping then Toad can bait needles out and since Toad is a counter even if Peach falls to low she'll be safe from the needles but, depending on the distance, maybe not from Sheik. Peach bomber also gives a Peach a little rise in height when done any time in the air (and a little on the ground but useless fact). So if spaced right Peach could cancel float, bait needles, and punish the needle throw with Peach bomber. Or Peach could bomber away from Sheik or over Sheik and possibly to the ledge. Now there's always the adaption on the Sheik's part which requires adaption on the Peach's part and mix ups are always a part of the game.

Player skill applies to the match of course and it's by no means a free win because both characters are pretty solid. But we did see the "best Sheik" loose against Umeki. Granted it was a friendly but it still seemed a little dominating. It might be close but I'm saying Peach edges out Sheik in the MU. Sheik has the 50/50 that isn't even a real 50/50 and Peach has true kill confirms and combos that don't requiring bating your opponent.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

I think an insteresting idea is to allow characters that need them to use customs, no pikachu or villager but chars lik Bowser and Ganon

 

[Pazzo.]

I don't know where Omegas are banned, but they're generally legal in my area. Something to consider against run -> shield and dancetrotting:

Sakurai - Surprising us in more ways than one since 1999.

This is pretty neat. I'm going to lab this as soon as I get a chance. How will this effect Robin? Ness? Mewtwo?

 

[williamsga555]

I remember hearing about grass having different traction months ago, but never knew the effect was that big. Interesting. My region goes to Omega GCO a lot, so that could be pretty relevant. Good find.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Wanted to say this after thinking it over

Should have made sure I had time to fully explain my thoughts, but back and gonna clear a few things up.



The point of me saying that was to point out Peach's semi-fast disjointed moves. Utilt and uair cover above and a little in front of Peach and f-tilt will at least trade with aerials (some situations it won, either the late hit or the very tip of the hit box and I'll need to look into it more) and can kill at higher %s and puts opponents above Peach.



Except MK relies on DI reads in his ladder and I think only at certain %s anyway. He doesn't have the easiest time to set up his ladder, relying on dash attacks and up tilts to start it. Peach needs 1 grab at 0 to start her 0-death. Peach plays differently than MK and can deal with certain options better anyway.



Landing while Sheik has needles is various levels of difficulty given the stage and how Peach got to where she is (has she already used certain aerial options). Let's just go with FD as the stage so no platforms to try to retreat to. Peach has moves that can air stall but require a bit of a commitment. For instance the first time Toad is used in the air Peach will gain a little height (and it seems to be a net gain in height on FAF). So dropping then Toad can bait needles out and since Toad is a counter even if Peach falls to low she'll be safe from the needles but, depending on the distance, maybe not from Sheik. Peach bomber also gives a Peach a little rise in height when done any time in the air (and a little on the ground but useless fact). So if spaced right Peach could cancel float, bait needles, and punish the needle throw with Peach bomber. Or Peach could bomber away from Sheik or over Sheik and possibly to the ledge. Now there's always the adaption on the Sheik's part which requires adaption on the Peach's part and mix ups are always a part of the game.

Player skill applies to the match of course and it's by no means a free win because both characters are pretty solid. But we did see the "best Sheik" loose against Umeki. Granted it was a friendly but it still seemed a little dominating. It might be close but I'm saying Peach edges out Sheik in the MU. Sheik has the 50/50 that isn't even a real 50/50 and Peach has true kill confirms and combos that don't requiring bating your opponent.

Guys, I know how we dislike heavy theoretical claims and statements, but I think that's good for MUs. Having a set benchmark that's requiring you to be able to beat X move with Y special 100% of the time, or stopping D move with F aerial 100% not only gives you an idea of how the MU is played at a high level, but it helps you as a player, helping to heighten your reflexes for other MUs and other things. I know it's my fault for not stopping X move from having any use in Y Match-up and not my character, for example.

 

[Amadeus9]

Should have made sure I had time to fully explain my thoughts, but back and gonna clear a few things up.



The point of me saying that was to point out Peach's semi-fast disjointed moves. Utilt and uair cover above and a little in front of Peach and f-tilt will at least trade with aerials (some situations it won, either the late hit or the very tip of the hit box and I'll need to look into it more) and can kill at higher %s and puts opponents above Peach.



Except MK relies on DI reads in his ladder and I think only at certain %s anyway. He doesn't have the easiest time to set up his ladder, relying on dash attacks and up tilts to start it. Peach needs 1 grab at 0 to start her 0-death. Peach plays differently than MK and can deal with certain options better anyway.



Landing while Sheik has needles is various levels of difficulty given the stage and how Peach got to where she is (has she already used certain aerial options). Let's just go with FD as the stage so no platforms to try to retreat to. Peach has moves that can air stall but require a bit of a commitment. For instance the first time Toad is used in the air Peach will gain a little height (and it seems to be a net gain in height on FAF). So dropping then Toad can bait needles out and since Toad is a counter even if Peach falls to low she'll be safe from the needles but, depending on the distance, maybe not from Sheik. Peach bomber also gives a Peach a little rise in height when done any time in the air (and a little on the ground but useless fact). So if spaced right Peach could cancel float, bait needles, and punish the needle throw with Peach bomber. Or Peach could bomber away from Sheik or over Sheik and possibly to the ledge. Now there's always the adaption on the Sheik's part which requires adaption on the Peach's part and mix ups are always a part of the game.

Player skill applies to the match of course and it's by no means a free win because both characters are pretty solid. But we did see the "best Sheik" loose against Umeki. Granted it was a friendly but it still seemed a little dominating. It might be close but I'm saying Peach edges out Sheik in the MU. Sheik has the 50/50 that isn't even a real 50/50 and Peach has true kill confirms and combos that don't requiring bating your opponent.

Hi just FYI and also for everyone else, do yourself a favor and don't say anything about metaknight in this thread, like ever. We have enough comedy in our discord chat as it is

 

[S_B]

Talk to me about Bowser. I want to know your thoughts on his current place in the meta and whether or not he has potential to develop further now that he has a viable gameplan.

I know you're a vocal proponent of the idea that Sheik and ZSS need to be nerfed for the continued health of the game (and I am neither going to agree nor disagree with that sentiment), but let's just presume for the sake of debate that they're never nerfed and they remain this way indefinitely.

That being said, where do you see Bowser going from here, and what does he need to do to remain a consistent threat? Do you think it's possible for him to find a comfortable niche for himself as a respectable opponent, or will his matchup with "the queens" hold him back from any kind of distinction?

Well, the trouble there is that, when you have any situation where one character invalidates another almost entirely, the meta for that character is just going to stagnate because maining that character is effectively spending tons of time labbing and learning a character that is going to get dunked when your opponent counterpicks you.

As a result, fewer players are going to want to stick around and really give that character enough attention to push the meta forward.

We have some amazing, dedicated Bowser mains, and we're seeing more people pick him up as a pocket character, but ultimately he (and many other characters) have a tiny fraction of the userbase as the top tiers.

If the jank was patched out of the game, Bowser would be, I feel, in a perfect place. Other than ZSS and Sheik, the only other things that are really problematic for Bowser are Ryu's Utilt infinite and MK's ladder combo (it'd also be nice if Pika's quick attack had SOME landing lag), and I feel like MK's ladder combo is only necessary for his current success in the meta because he gets eaten alive by Sheik without it.

Really, I know folks love the combo, but MK's real strength is probably supposed to be his edgeguarding game offstage (which is still very much fighting in the air). Some characters are better off staying on the stage and trying to read ledge getups while MK is the kind that should be going for the gimp every time he gets someone off the stage. However, our meta is very kill-confirm centric, and quite a few players have pointed out that our collective edgeguarding game is generally underdeveloped, like we saw that you couldn't edgehog any longer and said, "Well, I guess that's out!" when it's really, REALLY not.

Instead of nerfing Sheik and ZSS, how would the meta be if the new characters were developed in a way to be direct counters to them but lose to some lower tiered characters? Would everyone see a boost in viability? (This is just some theory).

It would just add some characters to the top of the tier list, really.

Some new character countering Sheik wouldn't help the tiers below Sheik. It would only push them further down the tier list and the odds are pretty damn good that that new character would dunk all of those lower tiers as well, as hard if not HARDER than Sheik does.

...Unless, like, a "Christmas miracle" happens and Bayonetta goes 70:30 or better against Sheik and ZSS but is mostly even with everyone else.

Imagine this, if everyone agrees that a meta without Zamus and Sheik will be healthier, was is stopping us from banning them?

Brawl MK probably should've been banned, but I think most people were either playing Project M or had gone back to Melee at that point so no one really cared any longer.

But I wouldn't even begin to suggest a ban is warranted when we've not even seen the last two characters added to the game yet.

 

[ZSaberLink]

I'm fairly certain the Greninja hurtbox nerfs were largely due to his low stance and fastfaller status allowing him to escape certain attacks, like Ike and Shulk's jab combos. Those attacks link better now though so it makes no sense for Greninja's hurtbox to remain the way it is.



No-one is seriously suggesting Toon Link is a hidden high tier. There were some kneejerk overreactions to his stellar G3 placing, as there always are with things like that, but you have to learn to ignore them. Consistency is the name of the game.

Toon Link's placings are rarely stellar but consistently good. Italian player BlueLink for example regularly frequents top 8 in Italian tournaments and has won stuff. Link doesn't have this base level of consistency anyway and, aside from a few kneejerk commenters, wouldn't be branded a hidden high tier.

Both Links are pretty middle-of-the-pack IMO, and results suggest that Toon Link bothers that 20-25 top of mid tier range of characters while Link is looking more like a lower mid tier character.

As I said, it's about consistency and learning to ignore the people who champion characters prematurely.

The only consistently placing Link I'm aware of is Catana from Netherlands (top 5 in that country). She does have a pocket MK though.

I still always assumed the point of Link in a lot of ways is to set up frame traps with his projectiles + his sword.

 

[Djent]

I think an insteresting idea is to allow characters that need them to use customs, no pikachu or villager but chars lik Bowser and Ganon

Oh it's an interesting idea, but not a good one.

Even if you accept the idea that players should have that kind of power to micromanage the balance of the game (they probably shouldn't, but let's say they should for the sake of argument), you run into practical issues. Who are the characters that "need [customs]?" Many people in this thread are well-informed, and yet there's no consensus here as to who is viable. Oh sure, there are some obvious cases, but beyond that? People's estimates of the percentage of viable characters will vary heavily, let alone the characters who individuals include in the viable class. It'd be a logistical nightmare, added on top of the fact that customs are already a logistical nightmare.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Sheik is significantly worse balance wise than Zero Suit, who is obnoxious but has meaningful vulnerabilities, and you can generally beat her with most characters by outplaying her, even if the risk-reward ratio is generally more skewed towards her than it should be. Sheik's tools are safer and can outright shut down more characters, and I think she'll benefit more from optimization than Zero Suit. While I'm fine with nerfing both of them, Zero Suit isn't as dominant or consistent at a high level, and is thought to at least slightly lose to Pika, so she shouldn't be viewed as equally problematic, and I don't think it's necessarily guaranteed that she'll stay #2 permanently without patches, while I can't see Sheik ever budging from #1.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Ignore this.

 

[Pazzo.]

Again, I don't mind ZSS. Her matchup ratio is much more balanced compared to the ninja in the room.

Sheik can follow suit then, and gain a few weaknesses to tip the scales in other high-tier character's favor.

It's not reasonable to expect every character in the game to be Brawl Meta Knight or Melee Fox good, but developers can create a semblance of balance by creating a few "attack points" to a character's gameplay.

Personally, that's probably why I mainly play mid-tier characters (and then ). I'm unconsciously promoting what I want to see across the roster.

 

[S_B]

Sheik is significantly worse balance wise than Zero Suit, who is obnoxious but has meaningful vulnerabilities

ZSS could be toned down with a bit of endlag on some of her moves and reducing the KB of boost kick, really (though the best Bowser's agree that she's Bowser's worst matchup, by far).

Sheik, on the other hand, is the best rushdown character in the game that also has a projectile so potent it can force characters who are all about using projectiles to stay away from their opponent to approach Sheik.

Just let that sink in for a bit...

I think the flip kick and bouncing fish are probably the most problematic of their movesets because they both allow them to escape a disadvantaged state VERY easily. It's difficult to apply pressure to a character that can choose to escape all pressure at a moment's notice.

 

[Megamang]

If they were damageless panic buttons then maybe they would be fair. But they are also extremely deadly, with absurd spiking power (zss) or crazy high active frames (shiek) such that attempting to maintain advantage is often as risky as being in disadvantage...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

If they were damageless panic buttons then maybe they would be fair. But they are also extremely deadly, with absurd spiking power (zss) or crazy high active frames (shiek) such that attempting to maintain advantage is often as risky as being in disadvantage...

What? You're starting to talk about a character that's not even there. Properly maintaining your advantage shouldn't put you in the position to getting hit. You make it sound like they can just wiggle out of combos and spike you and kill you.

 

[LancerStaff]

Depending on the how and the when Pit can snipe the queens' Dspecials with an arrow.

Arrows don't exactly exert much pressure or deal much damage but at the same time it's a noncommitment and much more then anybody else is getting. (Casual reminder arrows aimed up have Brawl endlag. )

 

[S_B]

What? You're starting to talk about a character that's not even there. Properly maintaining your advantage shouldn't put you in the position to getting hit. You make it sound like they can just wiggle out of combos and spike you and kill you.

Actually, chasing ZSS offstage can get you killed very quickly for that exact reason. Both flipkick and fish can have their distance adjusted so as to hit targets nearer or further and I've seen people get spiked for trying to press advantage.

And getting hit by vanish as Sheik recovers is probably going to kill you one way or another...

 

[Megamang]

What? You're starting to talk about a character that's not even there. Properly maintaining your advantage shouldn't put you in the position to getting hit. You make it sound like they can just wiggle out of combos and spike you and kill you.

Edgeguarding ZSS, and high damage chasing shiek, are the examples i had in mind.