Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[S_B]

http://www.gamnesia.com/news/sakura...-addressing-the-balancing-in-super-smash-bros
This may help

And I need to draw attention to this...

"In addition to the playtesters’ daily impressions, the team also considers results from online battles, as well as opinions they find about characters on the Internet. Then, using all of this data, they propose balance adjustments."

"opinions they find about characters on the Internet."

"opinions they find about characters on the Internet."

Though, that could only be the opinions of Japanese players...

Also, I'd LOOOOOOOOVE to see a crew battle between Japan's best players and Sakurai's playtesters! :D

Imagine one of them three-stocks Ranai's villager with friggin' Ganondorf or something and we're all like, "That moment when you now know that you, in fact, know nothing..."

 

[LancerStaff]

So you make an assumption on a game you admit you haven't played much to bolster your many (baseless i might add) arguments? I never said they care about it more, what I am saying is that they don't care for it exclusively and that balancing the game for 1v1 usually bodes an equally enjoyable FFA. Since there's no data supporting my claims though (and yours for that matter), I am feeling awfully reluctant to follow with more responses. You could respond if you want, but I want you to know, from this point on that any argument FOR or AGAINST the notion of FFA balance is not backed up by some serious data and hence is baseless. In other words, I hope you stop trying to shutdown responses in the future with "....but FFA this".

TL;DR
It's actually mind grating to keep seeing FFA taken seriously with not much data backing claims. Anyone and everyone should stop as I believe this thread pertains what we have or could realistically see in tourneys.

You wanted a game balanced for 1v1s but can be played in FFAs, there it is. Not once did I treat it as important to my argument... Dunno where you got that idea. Every other game that tries to balance for multiple, widely different modes of play equally ends up with pretty poor balance.

You could just hop on for Glory FFAs and see how a character's tools react. Not hard. I mean, in what way is ZSS not Usmash bait after a ladder combo? Are people really going to let her pull it off five times without trying to stop it?

I think they're doing a pretty good job of it with what they have right now, and there's no character in this game that would need to be completely redesigned to either bring them up or push them down to where they need to be.

And the real beauty is that everything that would need to be balanced isn't going to affect casual play much, if at all. Would casuals notice if Sheik had more endlag on some moves? Did they notice when Bowser and DK got kill confirm followups off of grabs (none of the ones I know did)?

I think they've figured out what the game needs for better 1v1 balance. They just need to follow through in a few places and overall it would then be balanced to the point where we may actually not be sure who the "best" character in the game actually is.

Rosalina. Excellent in 1v1s but very underwhelming in FFAs. If they significantly nerfed ZSS and Sheik somehow then they'd definitely get stuck on her.

Sakurai balances for mid level play. Yeah, they'd notice. They don't notice the new kill confirms off of grabs because they're useless in FFAs for the most part.

FFAs aren't what the developers are balancing for.

They are balancing for both 1v1 and Doubles, esp with the latest Bucket/PSI Magnet/Pocket nerfs only affecting Doubles.

They're balancing for FFAs, and then fixing what they can without interfering. Do you really think the Ike buffs were for 1v1s when Zelda and Puff still exist?

I've never understood treating FFA as competitive and then assuming the players aren't competitive. If all 4 players are equally competent, the complexity of FFA just sorts itself out. You can't balance that guy who knows how to crowd control and finish his casual friends regardless of character. That guy is also why items exist.

As long as a character is balanced in singles and doubles, FFA is fine.

For Glory has a sorting algorithm to keep that from happening...

http://www.gamnesia.com/news/sakura...-addressing-the-balancing-in-super-smash-bros
This may help

Yes, let's just take Sakurai's word for it when he's been incredibly cryptic every other time. Like, really.

"Therefore, if I played only one kind of battle, the game would feel very slanted towards a particular style of play." What can we gather from this statement? That the game could be made to bias one mode of play. That's it. Never said everything was going to be fair and equal, and even if it was, fair and equal. Not "durhurhur casuals don't care about balance."

 

[Nu~]

It when he's been incredibly cryptic every other time. Like, really.

"Therefore, if I played only one kind of battle, the game would feel very slanted towards a particular style of play." What can we gather from this statement? That the game could be made to bias one mode of play. That's it. Never said everything was going to be fair and equal, and even if it was, fair and equal. Not "durhurhur casuals don't care about balance."

I mean...it's more than your twisted theorycraft.

You can (and have) twist anything to fit your "gold standard" of FFA balance because of how subjective it is.
So yes, I would GLADLY take my chances with flip-floppy sakurai than the guy who looks at smash 4 game balance from one perspective, then shoehorns every little aspect of the game into it to keep it "valid".

Explain why Zelda still sucks in FFAs then?
Then again, you can easily turn that around to fit your FFA balance standard because of how opinion based it is.

 

[Mario766]

uhh...yes?

Jab connecting reliably because characters were HITTING THE GROUND before Ike could hit jab 3.

I'm looking at you, Greninja.

F-Air hitting with the sword trail makes his throw combos reliable, and gives him more damage off throw combos, which are a SINGLES thing. You don't really get throw combos in FFAs or Doubles, because someone will just hit you out of them.

Dash Attack being stronger works in both FFAs, Doubles and Singles, it's a strong tool that people have to actually respect now, because he has a real mid-range tool to use.

Up-Air having better BKB is a double-edged tool. It doesn't combo as well if used against a grounded opponent, which was mostly used in footstool combos, but kills much earlier and gives Ike 50/50s that people will die to. It didn't get super buffed so it isn't a super good FFA tool, unlike Cloud's Up-Air, but it's a much better doubles tool for finishing combos if the other person gets a grab and you can combo into up-air.

Landing lag buffs make him better in singles, as he has better on-shield numbers and he can use moves more effectively.

It's 100 percent Singles/Doubles buffs, with it helping not as much in FFAs.

 

[LancerStaff]

I mean...it's more than your twisted theorycraft.

You can (and have) twist anything to fit your "gold standard" of FFA balance because of how subjective it is.
So yes, I would GLADLY take my chances with flip-floppy sakurai than the guy who looks at the game from one perspective, then shoehorns every little detail into it to keep it "valid".

So now FFAs are on equal ground with 1v1s. Meaning "because FFAs" is a legitimate answer.

uhh...yes?

Jab connecting reliably because characters were HITTING THE GROUND before Ike could hit jab 3.

I'm looking at you, Greninja.

F-Air hitting with the sword trail makes his throw combos reliable, and gives him more damage off throw combos, which are a SINGLES thing. You don't really get throw combos in FFAs or Doubles, because someone will just hit you out of them.

Dash Attack being stronger works in both FFAs, Doubles and Singles, it's a strong tool that people have to actually respect now, because he has a real mid-range tool to use.

Up-Air having better BKB is a double-edged tool. It doesn't combo as well if used against a grounded opponent, which was mostly used in footstool combos, but kills much earlier and gives Ike 50/50s that people will die to. It didn't get super buffed so it isn't a super good FFA tool, unlike Cloud's Up-Air, but it's a much better doubles tool for finishing combos if the other person gets a grab and you can combo into up-air.

Landing lag buffs make him better in singles, as he has better on-shield numbers and he can use moves more effectively.

It's 100 percent Singles/Doubles buffs, with it helping not as much in FFAs.

Dude, being able to actually use your GTFO moves means a ton in FFAs since you're going to perpetually have somebody in your face.

Uair kills at what, below 120%? Not an Electroshock or anything but that's relevant.

Fair's hitboxes help in situations where you're dealing with people coming in at multiple angles, and edgeguarding too.

Heck, the landing lag buffs are meaningful too because it helps him land. Bowser's primary weakness of not being able to land applies doubly so to FFAs.

If you think FFAs only consist of spamming the most powerful moves you're in for a rude awakening... Ike's smashes are still situational as heck.

 

[Mario766]

Landing with aerials that are both

1) slow

2) More than like 15 frames of landing lag

Unless perfectly spaced

Is a BAD idea regardless of if Ike got slightly landing lag buffs. Up-Air being stronger doesn't mean jack **** in FFAs because it already killed, it kills better off up throw which is a SINGLES thing. F-Air's hitboxes were fine in that situation already, it got a better UPWARD hitbox, which is, yet again, a SINGLES buff, because it makes his throw combos better.

Does it trickle down to FFAs? Yes

They aren't gearing Ike towards FFAs as they were making him a more usable singles character to use.

 

[Zelder]

Straight from Sheik/ZSS nerfs to FFA balance chat. I'm beginning to suspect I died in that car crash and this is Hell.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

This game is not singularly balanced around FFAs. Fact.

Please, LancerStaff, stop. Go read Famitsu columns and other such things Sakurai's written (though ambiguously) on the matter.

...and this thread in particular is geared for 1v1 or teams play, under the aegis/criterion set by a wider community/set of peers, and NOT for FFAs.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Y2Kay]

uhh...yes?

Jab connecting reliably because characters were HITTING THE GROUND before Ike could hit jab 3.

I'm looking at you, Greninja.

The added a hitbox to our horns just so you and Shulk can hit us with your jab. I hope your happy.

 

[Mario766]

The added a hitbox to our horns just so you and Shulk can hit us with your jab. I hope your happy.

It would have hit regardless because jab 3 comes out faster, which was the issue.

 

[Wintropy]

Amadeus9 , I know you're understandably hesitant about non-MK players bringing up MK in this thread, but I'm wondering something (and I'm asking you because it ties into something you said on the first page of this thread).

Suppose Sakurai notices how strong MK's ceiling combo is in 1v1 and decides to hit it with the nerf hammer: whence does the MK meta go from there? Is it "good night Meta Knight" or will he remain a consistent threat thanks to his edgeguarding game and other strong tools? Has the MK community prepared for this eventuality, or do you feel safe that it won't be touched during the patch cycle?

I'm wondering because this thread recently touched on how strong MK's edgeguarding is and how often it's overshadowed in the public eye by his up-air combo. In the event that this very potent kill confirm was nerfed or ditched entirely, would MK still be considered a strong character, or do people fear him just due to the existence of that combo?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin's Elthunder and Arcthunder endllag buffs mean little in the scheme of an FFA when the size of the fight makes it hard to follow up without getting hit himself, and where the first goal is typically to find a safespot to charge Thoron and screen wipe everyone. Yet here he is, with a 10 frame cut on both of those tiers of Thunder, fantastically aiding his zoning proficiency.

Are you saying you want to nerf all of zss's best neutral tools? You know the ones that take a half a second of commitment if you want to utilize them every time.

Nerfing a 4.5/5 Star rating aerials down to a 4/5 Stars still leaves a 4/5 Star aerial to use. Especially aerials that currently have miniscule landing lag for how quickly she can double jump and fastfall to cover the vertical zone and bust out a Frame 1 Jab and Frame 3 both-sides Utilt for upon landing.

 

[Y2Kay]

Amadeus9 , I know you're understandably hesitant about non-MK players bringing up MK in this thread, but I'm wondering something (and I'm asking you because it ties into something you said on the first page of this thread).

Suppose Sakurai notices how strong MK's ceiling combo is in 1v1 and decides to hit it with the nerf hammer: whence does the MK meta go from there? Is it "good night Meta Knight" or will he remain a consistent threat thanks to his edgeguarding game and other strong tools? Has the MK community prepared for this eventuality, or do you feel safe that it won't be touched during the patch cycle?

I'm wondering because this thread recently touched on how strong MK's edgeguarding is and how often it's overshadowed in the public eye by his up-air combo. In the event that this very potent kill confirm was nerfed or ditched entirely, would MK still be considered a strong character, or do people fear him just due to the existence of that combo?

Hey guys look it's a topic NOT about FFAs lets talk about that!

Anyway....

I've always wondered (I don't main top tiers) If top tier mains consider and plan for potential. Are Sheik and ZSS mains getting ready for the "inevitable" and try to start practicing other characters or strengthen themselves in other ways (like MK mains strengthening edge guarding in case that has to be their new niche)

 

[Man Li Gi]

You know, there are some moves in the game that are so close in the game to being decent. Imagine if DK Hand Slap could hit people in the air? I mean 19 frames of start up and 43 frames of end lag coupled with the fact the move never kills, but can kinda break shield if your opponent does nothing, and covers tech options, transcendent.......

This is the type of balancing that may make it seem like the FFA idea is real, but I'm reality, if it Hand Slap could kill or hit I'm the air, DK could effectively setup a hard wall for opponents and thus make his play style contrast what it currently is.

Now deviating from that FFA nonsense, there are so many moves in heavy characters that are so close to bring actually good. Not going to delve so much as what moves *cough hand slap cough*, but I feel Ganon is the ultimate embodiment of this. Ganon just needs like 2-5 frames shaved off some landing/ending lag to be scary. If his bair had a larger hitbox and AC window, it could effectively space even if it hit shield. Revert Nair to 1.11. Ftilt should have more range than his jab and should have 2 frames less end lag or gives it I frames like DK. In fact, a universal 2 frames of end lag shaved could outright make the character quite good.

I know weaknesses are supposed to accentuate a character, I don't consider this Ganon as a character, but as a hodgepodge of ideas thrown into one and slapped into the game.

FR I think the development of Ganon in each game went like "I wonder what would happen if we made the most meme inducing and disrespectful character that makes you feel bad about yourself when you lose".

 

[adom4]

You know, there are some moves in the game that are so close in the game to being decent. Imagine if DK Hand Slap could hit people in the air? I mean 19 frames of start up and 43 frames of end lag coupled with the fact the move never kills, but can kinda break shield if your opponent does nothing, and covers tech options, transcendent.......

This is the type of balancing that may make it seem like the FFA idea is real, but I'm reality, if it Hand Slap could kill or hit I'm the air, DK could effectively setup a hard wall for opponents and thus make his play style contrast what it currently is.

Now deviating from that FFA nonsense, there are so many moves in heavy characters that are so close to bring actually good. Not going to delve so much as what moves *cough hand slap cough*, but I feel Ganon is the ultimate embodiment of this. Ganon just needs like 2-5 frames shaved off some landing/ending lag to be scary. If his bair had a larger hitbox and AC window, it could effectively space even if it hit shield. Revert Nair to 1.11. Ftilt should have more range than his jab and should have 2 frames less end lag or gives it I frames like DK. In fact, a universal 2 frames of end lag shaved could outright make the character quite good.

I know weaknesses are supposed to accentuate a character, I don't consider this Ganon as a character, but as a hodgepodge of ideas thrown into one and slapped into the game.

FR I think the development of Ganon in each game went like "I wonder what would happen if we made the most meme inducing and disrespectful character that makes you feel bad about yourself when you lose".

Dorf's Bair is already safe on shield though, i'd say getting a usable jab & grab are his biggest priorities right now.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

Ganon's design is pretty senseless, a slower and stroger Falcon? I mean, falcon is pretty strong already(looking at you fsmash) and the strengh difference isnt really that great, but in contrast, they made Ganon sooo slow, why though? And they made worst versions of Falcons moves (uptilt, jab)

 

[S_B]

I'm wondering because this thread recently touched on how strong MK's edgeguarding is and how often it's overshadowed in the public eye by his up-air combo. In the event that this very potent kill confirm was nerfed or ditched entirely, would MK still be considered a strong character, or do people fear him just due to the existence of that combo?

I think if they tweaked ZSS and Sheik to be less overwhelming, MK wouldn't need the ladder.

His strength is supposed to be gimping people once they're offstage, which is demonstrated by his toolkit: His aerials are all fairly well disjointed, come out VERY quickly with little lag time between them (meaning mixing up your recovery will be less effective because he can throw out another move right afterwards), and can eat through most recoveries. He has FIVE jumps, and then one of the most reliable, unpunishable Up+Bs for recovery which can (and will) wind up stage spiking the bejeezus out of anyone caught off guard or trying to recover low and it catches airdodges on its own pretty darn well if MK is aiming for someone in front of him because the hitbox comes out twice.

Once MK has you offstage, there's almost no reason you should be able to get back unless you have a very safe Up+B (like a teleport).

But Sheik and ZSS don't give a rat's hairy butt about any of MK's tools due to how safe their recoveries generally are or outright dangerous to challenge (especially Sheik's). MK can't challenge the bouncing fish because of the size of its hitbox, and he will get murdered by vanish and it's invulnerability frames on startup. Meanwhile, his Uair cannot challenge flipkick safely, and ZSS' mixups are generally too fast for him to intercept (tether vs. up+B vs. flipkick).

The only reason MK's ladder combo is so well developed is because it's the one thing he can really use to beat Sheiks. If not for Sheik, I think we'd see MK's offstage game a great deal more developed at this point.

 

[StarshipGroove]

Boost Kick is not part of the problem?

It has the power of a smash attack WITH THE STARTUP OF A JAB! That, and it can KO confirm out of uair and catch airdodges. I say just change boost kick's angle to 0 so it won't ever KO off the top, so ZSS keeps all her tools intact, but loses her insane death combo, then add some frames on its landing lag.
also LancerStaff I have a legit question, why oh crap the pits are coming, run for the hills

 

[Smash G 0 D]

If any of you saw the 3 seriously long(but cool) video of devin3000 and Mike, they say that it's possible Rosa is even for Kirby, but likely not.
Mike also said ZSS was evenish for pre-patch Kirby and could be better. Well we got one of the best kill throws, so.....

Idk what others think, but from what I can remember reading, some Yoshi mains say their character is actually not that difficult to truly fight if you play the MU properly, so if we do, what would it be like? Tough and annoying most likely. Doable? Possibly.
Shiek....I don't know, its definitely not our worst, and we are capable of fighting her......still wish I knew what Mike thinks of it....

Actually Smash G 0 D , what can you say for our little puffball? Idk if your on often or you have time, but if you can, it'd be cool.

What's the question? Kirby matchups vs high tiers? Rosa beats Kirby pretty solidly, I think. ZSS is close to even. Other high tiers... Mario beat Kirby. Diddy destroys Kirby. Sheik beats Kirby (though many people think it's even-ish... if Sheik knows the MU then Sheik wins). Also I realize I'm seeing this late haha.

 

[Dinoman96]

You know what's ultimate proof that Smash isn't 100% always balanced around 1v1s (despite what that LancerStaff fellow says)?

And that, my friends, is why Fox is king in competitive Melee.

"Better at one-on-one fights", indeed.

 

[Megamang]

Not to harp on about the queens, but MKs prospects being an expert (l)edgeguarder are pretty bleak when the most common tournament threats are basically untouchable when recovering.

The other character discussion comes back to that issue, or related ones, for a reason. Why invest time in a character that is gonna get you manhandled by someone 'smart' enough to pick zsshiek. All the balance whiners want is there to be no clear character choice for people who want to win. Yes, there will always be best characters, but mid tier players have MU inexperience to utilize, except when the definition of mid tier is "cant deal with needles" (literally the reason i need a secondary, needles beat all my projectiles)


Edit: being good at one on ones can help in FFAs. Thats just saying get them alone.

Also, fox was the best at melee FFAs anyways, still amazing pressure game, best mobility to choose engagements... take kills with uairs ridiculousness...

 

[Planty]

I've always wondered (I don't main top tiers) If top tier mains consider and plan for potential. Are Sheik and ZSS mains getting ready for the "inevitable" and try to start practicing other characters or strengthen themselves in other ways (like MK mains strengthening edge guarding in case that has to be their new niche)

Not really. I mean, people are improving stuff but not because they're scared of nerfs. After so many patches, most top tier mains just kinda accepted that it's super unlikely that any major changes will happen to their character.

I remember that when it was revealed that Mewtwo would release alongside a patch, I was almost sure that Rosalina was getting destroyed. I was relieved to find out very minor things were changed (I think that the biggest thing that patch for her was lowering Luma's HP from 51 to 48). The same thing happened for the next patch; I thought she was getting butchered but almost nothing changed (and if I recall correctly she was buffed that patch). I don't remember when, but at some point I just realized: They're not nerfing the top tiers. My reaction to new patches nowadays is just: Meh.

 

[LancerStaff]

Landing with aerials that are both

1) slow

2) More than like 15 frames of landing lag

Unless perfectly spaced

Is a BAD idea regardless of if Ike got slightly landing lag buffs. Up-Air being stronger doesn't mean jack **** in FFAs because it already killed, it kills better off up throw which is a SINGLES thing. F-Air's hitboxes were fine in that situation already, it got a better UPWARD hitbox, which is, yet again, a SINGLES buff, because it makes his throw combos better.

Does it trickle down to FFAs? Yes

They aren't gearing Ike towards FFAs as they were making him a more usable singles character to use.

Jab buff wasn't slight trickle down. Uair buff wasn't either.

This game is not singularly balanced around FFAs. Fact.

Yes, I get that. Never said it once. What are you trying to prove?

You know what's ultimate proof that Smash isn't 100% always balanced around 1v1s (despite what that LancerStaff fellow says)?

And that, my friends, is why Fox is king in competitive Melee.

"Better at one-on-one fights", indeed.

1v1s happen in FFAs.

Robin's Elthunder and Arcthunder endllag buffs mean little in the scheme of an FFA...

What part of "never said that" don't you people understand..?

 

[Djent]

Straight from Sheik/ZSS nerfs to FFA balance chat. I'm beginning to suspect I died in that car crash and this is Hell.

This is limbo. You'll know if you've been granted another chance at life by the amount of observed ancient memes and tier lists without commentary.

 

[san.]

There are balance considerations for any added gameplay element, but some are more important to balance around than others. You don't want to just create modes that no one will ever play, but you know that there will be preferred modes in general.

 

[Flux0r]

Speaking of which, what is Shulk's current status in the metagame?

This happened to me recently:

It's actually possible to DI the first hit of Shulk's U-Smash to avoid the second hit. I've only tested with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus so far, which means floaties probably can't do much about it.

But seriously, is not having the worst frame data in the game enough for poor Shulk?

 

[Man Li Gi]

Dorf's Bair is already safe on shield though, i'd say getting a usable jab & grab are his biggest priorities right now.

Safe if facing a slower opponents. Plus i want to hit lower with it. A good jab/grab game would be awesome, but that won't make him wholly better as both are seldom to barely used. We should focus what overall would make him closer to a character with actual use outside of just loving the dude.

 

[Amadeus9]

Amadeus9 , I know you're understandably hesitant about non-MK players bringing up MK in this thread, but I'm wondering something (and I'm asking you because it ties into something you said on the first page of this thread).

Suppose Sakurai notices how strong MK's ceiling combo is in 1v1 and decides to hit it with the nerf hammer: whence does the MK meta go from there? Is it "good night Meta Knight" or will he remain a consistent threat thanks to his edgeguarding game and other strong tools? Has the MK community prepared for this eventuality, or do you feel safe that it won't be touched during the patch cycle?

I'm wondering because this thread recently touched on how strong MK's edgeguarding is and how often it's overshadowed in the public eye by his up-air combo. In the event that this very potent kill confirm was nerfed or ditched entirely, would MK still be considered a strong character, or do people fear him just due to the existence of that combo?

Without Uair combos MK is probably somewhere around 15-ish? best in the game. depends on how they nerf it tho. All of MKs other tools are really good too, it's just that Uair combos are pretty nuts

 

[Spinosaurus]

MK without UAir combos is still very strong. He'll still be a threat.

Watch Ito or Tyrant. They know how to use the character's other tools and strengths.

 

[G. Stache]

Boost Kick is not part of the problem?

It has the power of God WITH THE STARTUP OF A JAB

Fixed.

But, no, really. Why do we have to complain about the queens whenever they get brought up? And why do we have to bring up FFA when, in all reality, does anyone besides maybe Lancerstaff over here, actually cares about FFA? We had a nice Olimar discussion in the works. Hell, even DaBuzz was interested enough to post here. But we smother it with legions of this crud. Lordy I love this thread.

Moving right along, I want to salvage the Olimar discussion because I realized that I don't anything about the bloke. If he does lose to all of these high tiers, then why do we view him as decently high?

 

[adom4]

Safe if facing a slower opponents. Plus i want to hit lower with it. A good jab/grab game would be awesome, but that won't make him wholly better as both are seldom to barely used. We should focus what overall would make him closer to a character with actual use outside of just loving the dude.

There's a reason jab is seldom used, F-tilt outclasses it 90% of the time, with a faster jab he'll have an OOS option & a GTFO move upclose.
Also Bair is safe when spaced on pretty much everybody.

 

[Wintropy]

Safe if facing a slower opponents. Plus i want to hit lower with it. A good jab/grab game would be awesome, but that won't make him wholly better as both are seldom to barely used. We should focus what overall would make him closer to a character with actual use outside of just loving the dude.

Agreed, but I'd say the reason why they're seldom used if because they're just not good. There's very little reason to use them when you know they're not really worth using. A strong jab and grab game are both things that most characters take for granted, but for 'Dorf, those options barely exist. Fixing that would at least help him feel more like a fully-realised character, rather than a jumbled hodgepodge of stuff that sounds good on paper.

Without Uair combos MK is probably somewhere around 15-ish? best in the game. depends on how they nerf it tho. All of MKs other tools are really good too, it's just that Uair combos are pretty nuts

That's really not bad at all, in fact that's very impressive. I can see why the u-air combo is a priority for some MK players, though - if you have an option that strong, why not try to optimise it (or at least practice to become efficient with it)?

I do wonder how u-air-centric players like Abadango would react to a nerf, though. Would he just try to optimise MK in a different way, or would he find somebody else that can satisfy his efficient kill confirm needs?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Speaking of which, what is Shulk's current status in the metagame?

This happened to me recently:

It's actually possible to DI the first hit of Shulk's U-Smash to avoid the second hit. I've only tested with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus so far, which means floaties probably can't do much about it.

But seriously, is not having the worst frame data in the game enough for poor Shulk?

Oh goody. All of Shulk's double-hit moves are inconsistent but this is ridiculous. For the record, if Shulk isn't right on top of them floaty characters can sometimes pop out of the second hit of U/FSmash, so things aren't perfect there either.

From what I can tell nothing new's really happened with Shulk in recent memory. Still has a handful of dedicated mains getting mostly local results, if anything. Still swings the biggest sword in the game as slow as possible. Still has a bunch of cool tricks that don't QUITE make up for his weaknesses. Over at Shulk boards people were experimenting with some buffered deactivation stuff (TL;DR, if Shulk buffers the deactivation of a movement art he can keep it's movement benefit for one immediate action after) but besides that things are pretty quiet.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Agreed, but I'd say the reason why they're seldom used if because they're just not good. There's very little reason to use them when you know they're not really worth using. A strong jab and grab game are both things that most characters take for granted, but for 'Dorf, those options barely exist. Fixing that would at least help him feel more like a fully-realised character, rather than a jumbled hodgepodge of stuff that sounds good on paper.



That's really not bad at all, in fact that's very impressive. I can see why the u-air combo is a priority for some MK players, though - if you have an option that strong, why not try to optimise it (or at least practice to become efficient with it)?

I do wonder how u-air-centric players like Abadango would react to a nerf, though. Would he just try to optimise MK in a different way, or would he find somebody else that can satisfy his efficient kill confirm needs?

Abadango would pick up Ryu

Then he would be nerfed and Abadango would switch to Sheik

 

[adom4]

Agreed, but I'd say the reason why they're seldom used if because they're just not good. There's very little reason to use them when you know they're not really worth using. A strong jab and grab game are both things that most characters take for granted, but for 'Dorf, those options barely exist. Fixing that would at least help him feel more like a fully-realised character, rather than a jumbled hodgepodge of stuff that sounds good on paper.



That's really not bad at all, in fact that's very impressive. I can see why the u-air combo is a priority for some MK players, though - if you have an option that strong, why not try to optimise it (or at least practice to become efficient with it)?

I do wonder how u-air-centric players like Abadango would react to a nerf, though. Would he just try to optimise MK in a different way, or would he find somebody else that can satisfy his efficient kill confirm needs?

I don't feel that Dorf is that badly designed, all of his moves work how they should (maybe except D-smash because of the thigh hitbox), he doesn't have any major hitbox issues (hell most of his hitboxes are ridiculous), he's not good mostly because of his mobility, almost every character in the series that's the same style as Dorf is usually bad unless they have stupid stuff (mostly through grabs & throws).

 

[Wintropy]

I don't feel that Dorf is that badly designed, all of his movese work how they should, he doesn't have any major hitbox issues (hell most of his hitboxes are ridiculous), he's not good mostly because of his mobility, almost every character in the series that's the same style as Dorf is usually bad unless they have stupid stuff (mostly through grabs & throws).

Oh, I'm not saying he's badly designed, just that he isn't quite as fleshed-out as he could be. There's the skeleton of a decent character there, but he's held back by a couple of things:

- Poor mobility, meaning he can't put pressure on faster opponents and is easily camped out
- No reliable confirms (out of grab)

The same could really be said of pre-patch DK and Bowser (though Bowser had mobility, he was just very unsafe for the most part): they were held back because, for all their power and kill potential, they didn't have good options to put them into effect. You're right that they're mostly good now because they have grab confirms and whatnot, but in a meta where that seems to be what keeps super-heavies relevant, it's what 'Dorf may well need to be a viable character.

He's not dysfunctional in his design, I'm not saying that, I'm just saying his design isn't very effective. Something to keep him on the same technical stratum as DK and Bowser (but fashioned to suit his own needs) would mean he really benefits from his design (super-strong punishment demon), rather than hindered by it.

 

[adom4]

Oh, I'm not saying he's badly designed, just that he isn't quite as fleshed-out as he could be. There's the skeleton of a decent character there, but he's held back by a couple of things:

- Poor mobility, meaning he can't put pressure on faster opponents and is easily camped out
- No reliable confirms (out of grab)

The same could really be said of pre-patch DK and Bowser (though Bowser had mobility, he was just very unsafe for the most part): they were held back because, for all their power and kill potential, they didn't have good options to put them into effect. You're right that they're mostly good now because they have grab confirms and whatnot, but in a meta where that seems to be what keeps super-heavies relevant, it's what 'Dorf may well need to be a viable character.

He's not dysfunctional in his design, I'm not saying that, I'm just saying his design isn't very effective. Something to keep him on the same technical stratum as DK and Bowser (but fashioned to suit his own needs) would mean he really benefits from his design (super-strong punishment demon), rather than hindered by it.

I'll be honest, i hate these kind of buffs like DK & Bowser got.
I feel like Dorf could be fixed without giving him a bandaid, i feel that those kind of buffs just simplify the character too much.

 

[Wintropy]

I'll be honest, i hate these kind of buffs like DK & Bowser got.
I feel like Dorf could be fixed without giving him a bandaid, i feel that those kind of buffs just simplify the character too much.

We're in agreement here, insofar as I don't think that kind of grab confirm would really fit 'Dorf's design or character. That and you'd have to fix his grab first, which is a problem in itself.

To go back to my original point, I don't think 'Dorf's a broken character, and you can definitely make him viable without overhauling him or giving him a band-aid. The point I was making is that a good jab and grab (with or without buffed followups - I know his followups are decent when he can get the grab) wouldn't be a trivial buff, it'd help flesh out his design without changing it or compromising its integrity. It probably wouldn't be a game-changer either, but it's something most characters have that he doesn't, and I think it's a reasonably fair and balanced way to enhance his gameplan without overtuning his options or overhauling him fundamentally.

 

[KeithTheGeek]

A character built around reads and punishes is incredibly inefficient without the mobility to actually make those punishes happen.

Ganon needs something fixed for him. I might be the wrong person to be making these suggestions since I only have a pocket Ganon (used to main in Melee and secondary in Brawl though), but something like a faster and stronger wizkick, or a better run speed, air speed, and air acceleration would do a lot for him.

He doesn't need to be made too much faster...but maybe not have bottom 5 mobility?

 

[adom4]

A character built around reads and punishes is incredibly inefficient without the mobility to actually make those punishes happen.

Ganon needs something fixed for him. I might be the wrong person to be making these suggestions since I only have a pocket Ganon (used to main in Melee and secondary in Brawl though), but something like a faster and stronger wizkick, or a better run speed, air speed, and air acceleration would do a lot for him.

He doesn't need to be made too much faster...but maybe not have bottom 5 mobility?

tbh a stronger grounded wizkick would do wonders for him, air wizkick is fine tho.