Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Deleted member]

tbh a stronger grounded wizkick would do wonders for him, air wizkick is fine tho.

This please.

It doesn't make sense to me that grounded Wizkick clanks with a number of lower-damge projectiles.

 

[LancerStaff]

And why do we have to bring up FFA when, in all reality, does anyone besides maybe Lancerstaff over here, actually cares about FFA?

I'm actually wondering that... Why are people so insistent on proving me wrong by pummeling a long dead strawman?

 

[ZSaberLink]

btw, why do folks here go and complain about jumpsquat frames when in reality the difference between the worst (Bowser) and the best (Sheik, ZSS, Diddy, Duck Hunt, etc.) is only 4 frames? We're talking about 4-8 frames (apart from Bowser, everyone is <=7). In the grand scheme of things, isn't it fairly minimal in comparison to the landing lag and other stats?

 

[arbustopachon]

jumpsquat affects how good your aerials oos are.
For example Charizard's jumpsquat is 7 frames which is the same as the shielddrop animation. This makes it so his aerials oos suck.

Fox for example has 4 frames of jumpsquat which means he'll have an easier time doing an aerial oos.

Also having longer jumpsquats just makes you more predictable in neutral as your aerials become more telegraphed. For example if charizard wants to do a fair in neutral he'll have to wait for at least 14 frames before the hitbox comes.

 

[Mario766]

btw, why do folks here go and complain about jumpsquat frames when in reality the difference between the worst (Bowser) and the best (Sheik, ZSS, Diddy, Duck Hunt, etc.) is only 4 frames? We're talking about 4-8 frames (apart from Bowser, everyone is <=7). In the grand scheme of things, isn't it fairly minimal in comparison to the landing lag and other stats?

Let's give an example

You have a frame 3 aerial, which can be used OoS to punish with.

You have a frame 4 jumpsquat, so your OoS is now frame 7.

Now you have a frame 7-8 jumpsquat, so your OoS is now frame 10-11

See the difference?

The good jumpsquat characters also have the best

Roll onto stage from ledge
Spotdodges
Rolls *in terms of invincible frames/FAF*
and so on


That's a problem.

 

[Chuva]

I'll be honest, i hate these kind of buffs like DK & Bowser got.
I feel like Dorf could be fixed without giving him a bandaid, i feel that those kind of buffs just simplify the character too much.

Personally I feel the Bowser buff was nicely done and complementary to his game. Pre-patch he was a "heavy" with only a few intimidating close-range options (save for character-specific jab frame traps) and most of them not incisively rewarding.

Having a proper hit confirm from a grab finally gives him a sense of reward and intimidation for getting up-close. I like the buff because it didnt change his archetype: he still lacks safe approaches and landings and will still get bodied by any competent ZSS, Sonic, Lucas etc, but now you have to actually respect his close-range and even mid-range (that absurd pivot grab) ground options, specially if you have stubby normals like the spacies and the plumbers.

Bowser has always been simple in this game: the buffs just made him simplicity more operational.

 

[ZSaberLink]

jumpsquat affects how good your aerials oos are.
For example Charizard's jumpsquat is 7 frames which is the same as the shielddrop animation. This makes it so his aerials oos suck.

Fox for example has 4 frames of jumpsquat which means he'll have an easier time doing an aerial oos.

Also having longer jumpsquats just makes you more predictable in neutral as your aerials become more telegraphed. For example if charizard wnts to do a fair in neutral he'll have to wait for at least 14 frames before the hitbox comes.

Let's give an example

You have a frame 3 aerial, which can be used OoS to punish with.

You have a frame 4 jumpsquat, so your OoS is now frame 7.

Now you have a frame 7-8 jumpsquat, so your OoS is now frame 10-11

See the difference?

The good jumpsquat characters also have the best

Roll onto stage from ledge
Spotdodges
Rolls *in terms of invincible frames/FAF*
and so on


That's a problem.

Thanks for the responses. I always assumed there would some frames burned from actually jumping right? Or is the idea that the aerial can fire the frame after the jumpsquat is inputted? Doesn't the character need to gain some minimal height thus taking some frames?

 

[S_B]

Edit: being good at one on ones can help in FFAs. Thats just saying get them alone.

This.

And we can stop picking on Lancer for it, everyone.

Why do we have to complain about the queens whenever they get brought up?

Moving right along, I want to salvage the Olimar discussion because I realized that I don't anything about the bloke. If he does lose to all of these high tiers, then why do we view him as decently high?

You kinda answered your own question, here.

When we discuss character X, there's pretty much a 90% chance that we'll happen upon how Sheik or ZSS stomps character X into pudding, then the cycle of lamenting the lack of nerfs for ZSSheik begins anew.

MK without UAir combos is still very strong. He'll still be a threat.

Watch Ito or Tyrant. They know how to use the character's other tools and strengths.

Exactly.

Every time a MK lets me get back to the ledge for free, I want to say, "Hey thanks, bro!"

Have MK's aerials (aside from some knockback) changed much between Brawl and SSB4? They're probably no longer transcendent, but the way the hitboxes come out looks pretty similar and MK can definitely throw aerials out like crazy.

Again, edgeguarding/gimping is very poorly developed in SSB4, and I think we see this mostly in characters like MK (and also probably D3) who just haven't been developed around their true strengths as edgeguarders.

Instead, we're too busy focusing on kill confirms which require a great deal of setup and are probably less reliable than simply pushing someone too far away from the ledge to recover (except for the queens...).

I'll be honest, i hate these kind of buffs like DK & Bowser got.
I feel like Dorf could be fixed without giving him a bandaid, i feel that those kind of buffs just simplify the character too much.

This goes back to what I said earlier about SSB5 being built from the ground up with 1v1 and FFA balance heavily in mind...

SSB4 isn't going to see any massive changes at this point. They won't be able to completely rework Ganondorf to make him function as a competitive character without overpowering him in FFA.

Does balancing with a throw followup kinda suck? Sure, but it doesn't hurt FFA balance and it also gives heavy characters proper reward for getting in, especially when heavies like DK, Bowser, and Gdorf don't have projectiles to open their opponents to the grab like Luigi and Diddy do.

So yeah, maybe SSB5 will get 1v1 and FFA balance right, but for now, a throw followup would be huge for Gdorf, or an outright kill throw period, since his grab game is so utterly horrendous.

And yeah, some framedata tweaks in other places would also be a huge help for him.

 

[HeavyLobster]

They won't be able to completely rework Ganondorf to make him function as a competitive character without overpowering him in FFA.

Dream patch notes:

Jab comes out frames 6-7, ends frame 26 instead of coming out frames 8-9 and ending frame 34
Dthrow has more vertical KB, combos reliably from around 0-50%
Wizkick does +2% damage
Nair and Fair have -2 landing lag, and Fair ACs out of a fullhop

There. You've got a functional midtier character. Sheik and maybe a couple of others are still problems but he can hold his own reasonably well. The only buff that really is noticeable for FFAs is Wizkick, which is still pretty unsafe and is less problematic than stuff like ElectroShock Arm, and it really doesn't make him OP in FFAs, certainly not to the extent that it would ruin things for casuals. Plus if items are on it favors faster characters anyways. I don't think we'll get all that due to Sakurai's conservatism regarding patches but it can be done.

 

[Mario766]

Jumpsquat frames are the frames you have to wait until your character is considered 'airborne'

For a frame 4 jumpsquat, you have to wait 4 frames before you can input an aerial. So if you have a frame 3 aerial, on frame 7 the hitbox will come out, assuming perfect inputs.

It also means, for a JC Up-Smash on a frame 4 jumpsquat, you have 4 frames to input it before you actually jump, in which case an up-air would come out.

 

[Jamurai]

People don't edgeguard all the time mostly because they think the risk/reward ratio is too high, and would prefer to attempt a punish on their ledge getup option instead. A lot of characters have really good ledge coverage options, and ledge getups are generally pretty weak (terribly weak in the case of some characters). If you fail your edgeguard then you may find yourself in the reverse situation where you're on the ledge against the opponent, which is obviously bad.

Personally I love edgeguarding so I'm willing to practise it a lot in both the lab and in matches so I am confident about it and decrease the risk/reward, especially with a character like MK where this is already relatively low. I think there's definitely room for development in this regard especially in the US scene, everyone knows more aggressive edgeguarding is more abundant in other regions such as Japan.

As for whether MK is strong without Uair combos, yes he would still be sort of a threat but he would not be solo viable (imo). His currently-great matchup spread would turn to poo, for example Sheik the ever-present would then not only obliterate us in neutral but also get more reward making the matchup abysmal.

 

[Amadeus9]

People don't edgeguard all the time mostly because they think the risk/reward ratio is too high, and would prefer to attempt a punish on their ledge getup option instead. A lot of characters have really good ledge coverage options, and ledge getups are generally pretty weak (terribly weak in the case of some characters). If you fail your edgeguard then you may find yourself in the reverse situation where you're on the ledge against the opponent, which is obviously bad.

Personally I love edgeguarding so I'm willing to practise it a lot in both the lab and in matches so I am confident about it and decrease the risk/reward, especially with a character like MK where this is already relatively low. I think there's definitely room for development in this regard especially in the US scene, everyone knows more aggressive edgeguarding is more abundant in other regions such as Japan.

As for whether MK is strong without Uair combos, yes he would still be sort of a threat but he would not be solo viable (imo). His currently-great matchup spread would turn to poo, for example Sheik the ever-present would then not only obliterate us in neutral but also get more reward making the matchup abysmal.

Nah he'd still be solo viable, just he probably wouldn't be seeing that much top 16 action. I mean his standard kit without uair is basically a smaller, faster Pit with lower damage per hit. And you really cant disregard how amazing MK's frame data is. It's outstanding.

Regardless this is a bunch of theorycrafting so whatever but

The fact that the ladder has existed to this point, after having existed and known to exist since 1.0.4 (this is when MK's Uair hitbox was fixed), leads me to believe that this is intended design.

 

[S_B]

As for whether MK is strong without Uair combos, yes he would still be sort of a threat but he would not be solo viable (imo). His currently-great matchup spread would turn to poo, for example Sheik the ever-present would then not only obliterate us in neutral but also get more reward making the matchup abysmal.

That's why I've always said that if the top tier was toned down, I doubt MK would need the ladder.

For example, Tyrant only kills with it once in this whole set:

The rest of the time are just awesome fundamentals. Though, you'll notice that Pika is also very difficult to edgeguard.

 

[Radical Larry]

Dream patch notes:

Jab comes out frames 6-7, ends frame 26 instead of coming out frames 8-9 and ending frame 34
Dthrow has more vertical KB, combos reliably from around 0-50%
Wizkick does +2% damage
Nair and Fair have -2 landing lag, and Fair ACs out of a fullhop

There. You've got a functional midtier character. Sheik and maybe a couple of others are still problems but he can hold his own reasonably well. The only buff that really is noticeable for FFAs is Wizkick, which is still pretty unsafe and is less problematic than stuff like ElectroShock Arm, and it really doesn't make him OP in FFAs, certainly not to the extent that it would ruin things for casuals. Plus if items are on it favors faster characters anyways. I don't think we'll get all that due to Sakurai's conservatism regarding patches but it can be done.

About D-Throw having more vertical KB...
He would lose confirms on Wizkick, Dropkick and Dash Attack. You know that right? Now if there were less knockback alongside the vertical knockback, he'd be able to reliably D-Throw > U-Smash, and that would make him just a bit better. But adding vertical knockback alone will make him lose good stats in the process.

Now I would like to also say a few things that would work wonders for Ganondorf:

Increased mobility to make him just faster than Villager, or maybe aerial mobility having a higher speed.
F-Tilt deals 14% damage and increased knockback.
D-Tilt comes out 3 frames faster, ends 6 frames faster and yet deals 10% damage as compensation.
D-Smash deals 24% damage raw instead of 19%.
N-Air should revert to having 22% damage instead of 19% max, whilst retaining current speed.
F-Air should at least come out Frame 10 and as compensation, deals 1% less damage.
D-Air needs to deal 22% damage itself and AC on short hop.
Wizard's Foot (aerial) should be able to break shields if all hits connect and deals 2% more damage.

Now before you say "that's too much to do", I'm going to state that not all of this would need to be (or will be) implemented to Ganondorf, but it would be nice to see some of these. My hopes are that he has increased mobility and speed on his attacks, as well as a shield breaking Wizard's Foot.

 

[Mario766]

Frame 10 F-Air doing 18 percent damage. OK

Instead of Ganon doing so much damage on these hits, having the ability to combo/string into hits better would be healthier.

 

[Wintropy]

I mean his standard kit without uair is basically a smaller, faster Pit with lower damage per hit.

I like this description. This is a good description.

That's why I've always said that if the top tier was toned down, I doubt MK would need the ladder.

For example, Tyrant only kills with it once in this whole set:

The rest of the time are just awesome fundamentals. Though, you'll notice that Pika is also very difficult to edgeguard.

Christ that was beautiful to watch. I feel refreshed. I wish we saw more of this kind of thing, it's a great demonstration of what MK can do beyond u-air combos.

Changing subjects here, but I've been discussing Robin's viability with a friend and I'm wondering what the general consensus is. Personally I think they're in that vague stretch at the border of mid-tier and high-tier, but she reckons they're somewhere in high-tier and definitely viable. What say y'all?

Outside of Raziek and Dath I can't think of any notable Robins in NA (or, really, anywhere else), so I don't know how much of their potential can be attributed to strong players, but I think they're pretty solid. They've been buffed to hell and back since release, having a reliable kill confirm out of d-throw and a good deal of their aerials getting reductions in lag really helps bolster their gameplan. Optimised Robin should, at least in theory, be very impressive in terms of stage control and punishing mistakes, I think they more than make up for their poor mobility with a great zoning / trap-setting game and strong conversions on specials and d-throw. Their matchup spread seems pretty decent too - except for the obligatory mauling by ZSS and potentially Sheik, I don't know of anything that's considered really dreadful.

I kind of think they're a character we'd consider a reasonable threat if we had more people representing them. I dunno, they just seem to me to have a good deal of potential that's waiting to be optimised.

 

[Megamang]

Robin shiek isnt terrible, her physics protect her from dthrow confirms, but she has nice confirms on shiek including kill confirms from the checkmate.

Something cool ive been seeing recently is purposely using 3 nosferatu, so when she had a chance she can use the 4th for an instant book. Arcthunder into thrown tome is incredible shield pressure/ damage, and if they avoid the arcthunder you hopefully can still land the book on their landing for heavy damage.

Uair chases are cool because if they get away, a thrown arcfire can keep the juggle going.

 

[Flux0r]

I like this description. This is a good description.



Christ that was beautiful to watch. I feel refreshed. I wish we saw more of this kind of thing, it's a great demonstration of what MK can do beyond u-air combos.

Changing subjects here, but I've been discussing Robin's viability with a friend and I'm wondering what the general consensus is. Personally I think they're in that vague stretch at the border of mid-tier and high-tier, but she reckons they're somewhere in high-tier and definitely viable. What say y'all?

Outside of Raziek and Dath I can't think of any notable Robins in NA (or, really, anywhere else), so I don't know how much of their potential can be attributed to strong players, but I think they're pretty solid. They've been buffed to hell and back since release, having a reliable kill confirm out of d-throw and a good deal of their aerials getting reductions in lag really helps bolster their gameplan. Optimised Robin should, at least in theory, be very impressive in terms of stage control and punishing mistakes, I think they more than make up for their poor mobility with a great zoning / trap-setting game and strong conversions on specials and d-throw. Their matchup spread seems pretty decent too - except for the obligatory mauling by ZSS and potentially Sheik, I don't know of anything that's considered really dreadful.

I kind of think they're a character we'd consider a reasonable threat if we had more people representing them. I dunno, they just seem to me to have a good deal of potential that's waiting to be optimised.

She is somewhere in the mid-upper area of the viability scale in my opinion.

She's got alot of neat tricks with her plethora of projectiles and powerful Levin Sword aerials. This is mostly enough to compete with most of the cast, but her horrendous mobility becomes her ultimate downfall at the end.

She simply can't keep up with the relevant top-tier threats that thrive on speed. Add a piss-poor grab and an exploitable recovery, and you've got yourself a character that needs to constantly out-read her opponent to win.

Sheik can literally camp the whole time with needles, since she has no reason to ever approach her (Can be said for alot of others, but Robin is one of the worst examples).

 

[Zepay]

I feel like characters change a lot. Might just be me

 

[Blobface]

Despite a justified lack of true combos, Ganon's moveset flows really well together. There's very few circumstances where his moves won't put the opponent in a crap position he can capitalize on.

 

[Browny]

If MK lost his uair-upb combo, it would basically be like starting every match with the opponent having 3 stocks to your 2 at the highest level where they seem to regularly get 1 stock almost for free.

I realise that probably needs more explanation. I mean that currently, it feels like the combo is so powerful and centralising, its equivalent to a 1 stock advantage in the 2-stock format.

nvm I cant get the analogy right

 

[S_B]

If MK lost his uair-upb combo, it would basically be like starting every match with the opponent having 3 stocks to your 2 at the highest level where they seem to regularly get 1 stock almost for free.

I realise that probably needs more explanation. I mean that currently, it feels like the combo is so powerful and centralising, its equivalent to a 1 stock advantage in the 2-stock format.

I think Tyrant demonstrates that you don't need the ladder to win games, at least against non-Sheik/ZSSes. He beat ESAM and only used it once. All of the other KOs were reads and just good play, and against a quick little bugger like Pika as well.

I maintain that this character is supposed to be an edgeguarder. In addition to all of his disjointed aerials and his up+B is difficult to hit him out of, he has three other B moves that can carry him a good distance. If up+B won't make it back to the stage after exhausting all of his jumps, toward+B probably will.

He just can't edgeguard the best characters in the game because hardly anyone can.

On that subject, what characters CAN edgeguard ZSS and Sheik? And how do they do so?

There's only one way I know of and that's punishing the 2 frame window and that's far from reliable:

 

[Luco]

She is somewhere in the mid-upper area of the viability scale in my opinion.

She's got alot of neat tricks with her plethora of projectiles and powerful Levin Sword aerials. This is mostly enough to compete with most of the cast, but her horrendous mobility becomes her ultimate downfall at the end.

She simply can't keep up with the relevant top-tier threats that thrive on speed. Add a piss-poor grab and an exploitable recovery, and you've got yourself a character that needs to constantly out-read her opponent to win.

Sheik can literally camp the whole time with needles, since she has no reason to ever approach her (Can be said for alot of others, but Robin is one of the worst examples).

I would be seeing mid-high as the likes of Oli, Ike and so on. Is this what you mean by mid-upper area of viability? Would you really say Robin fits with this category of people? Who is using her now and getting results that's enough to justify such a rating? (Not trying to target you out or be mean, I'm just interested. ^_^ )

 

[Megamang]

What if it were tweaked to do even more damage, just not kill? So mk could get 60 damage or more from the DA?

 

[FallofBrawl]

So top 32 at PAX looking like:

TSM | ZeRo vs. TLOC | Denti

PG | MVD vs. MVG COG | Mew2King
GW | FOW vs. COG | Wizzrobe

iQHQ | Vinnie vs. TTN | MJG

2GG | VoiD vs. TTN | Karna

CLG | NAKAT vs. FX | Dakpo

PG | ESAM vs. UA | Jbandrew

THE | ANTi vs. Megafox

Losers

Dojo | BC vs. Speedy(?)

Phenom vs. Hakii

Hero of Winds(?) vs. KJ

VGBC | Logic vs. Mikeffect

Tesh vs. NiteZ

Ryze vs. SaSSy

Xyro vs. Phantasm (?)

Weegee vs. Dreadream

Pretty good for Top 32.

 

[HeavyLobster]

About D-Throw having more vertical KB...
He would lose confirms on Wizkick, Dropkick and Dash Attack. You know that right? Now if there were less knockback alongside the vertical knockback, he'd be able to reliably D-Throw > U-Smash, and that would make him just a bit better. But adding vertical knockback alone will make him lose good stats in the process.

Now I would like to also say a few things that would work wonders for Ganondorf:

Increased mobility to make him just faster than Villager, or maybe aerial mobility having a higher speed.
F-Tilt deals 14% damage and increased knockback.
D-Tilt comes out 3 frames faster, ends 6 frames faster and yet deals 10% damage as compensation.
D-Smash deals 24% damage raw instead of 19%.
N-Air should revert to having 22% damage instead of 19% max, whilst retaining current speed.
F-Air should at least come out Frame 10 and as compensation, deals 1% less damage.
D-Air needs to deal 22% damage itself and AC on short hop.
Wizard's Foot (aerial) should be able to break shields if all hits connect and deals 2% more damage.

Now before you say "that's too much to do", I'm going to state that not all of this would need to be (or will be) implemented to Ganondorf, but it would be nice to see some of these. My hopes are that he has increased mobility and speed on his attacks, as well as a shield breaking Wizard's Foot.

Usmash comes out frame 21, so I don't think it would be remotely reliable. He'd mostly just get Dthrow->Uair and Dthrow->Nair, the latter doing 26% when fresh and being better than anything he might lose, but still being balanced due to Ganondorf's poor grab range and mobility.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Can we start talking about MUs in detail? Like, instead of talking about characters, where they stand on the tier list, viable or not and buffs and nerfs, can we talk about specific MUs? Like:

: 35/65

• ROB dies a bit earlier in this MU than others due to Doc Mario's damage-per-hit and power, but doc Mario dies earlier too because of edge guarding, ledge trapping, kill confirm and damage output.
• Our Bair beats his Fair.
• Getting close will take a lot of player knowledge for you to know the ROB's laser patterns, so watch him carefully. Gyro is a different subject. When ROB has gyro in his hand, you have to do some more mental work in feeling and finding out when he's going to try to toss it at you. Try to bait him into wasting it. A good ROB however, will hold onto it for later use. This makes it much harder to predict what the Rob player is going to do
• Edge guarding ROB is a bit easier than others due to his vulnerability offstage, but it's Not free. Fair and Uair are the only aerials in ROB Arsenal that has fast start up. Any other aerial will get beat out in speed. The trickiness is getting behind ROB to outspeed him and stage spike him.
• Landing against ROB is a chore. Utilt and Uair are the main culprits, though a secret anti-air Usmash at high % can hurt a lot. Mix up your landings with tornado stall, b reversal and wavebouncing capes, some pills and Bair.
• When being edge guarded, the best thing to do is to be random. Choose different recovery setups ( DJ tornado, DJ mash tornado, mash tornado DJ, FF then DJ tornado, FF then Up-B, etc..) random to throw him off. Make sure to have your back facing him so you have access to Bair. Doc's recovery isn't good and it's no better against Rob especially. Gyro, laser, Bair, Dair and Uair are killing machines offstage.

I kinda just used a bad example. This MU is simpler than most (particularly because of doc) and can just really be simplified as "don't get hit" (even though all matches are like that, the super strong punish games and bad recoveries and disadvantage states kinda heavily emphasizes this).

 

[Charoite]

I supposed this thread was named the character competitive impressions not the unofficial SSB balancing committee, i dont know why some of you are so fixated in talk about nerfs to , not even pre 1.0.6 was this discussed, on the subject of up air combo, i fail to see that the combo is not intended or at least the moves to allow that , and if you want to remove that at least have a better justification that because of sheik and zero suit samus being overturned, the combo is an immediate problem? is the combo killing destroying people at mid or top level play? is worth investing time in tweaking the moves so they dont combo anymore, and maybe buff MK on other areas, but potentially alienate MK players that have investing time in the character and like how MK is right now?

 

[Megamang]

The discussion is because we are nearing what we believe to be the end of balancing, and we dont want to see top level play devolve to pick shiek. Spectators at mid level play can want high level balance, because it makes for better games to watch.


Anyways, the more i play mega the more i feel he is viable. Its good to see him, albeit as a secondary, in t32 at pax. Does anyone have a MU with mega they want to discuss/ hear my unbacked but pretty kewl opinion on?

 

[KeithTheGeek]

Interested in giving your thoughts on Mega vs Doc or ROB? He kinda bodies my main almost as hard as ZSS does lol.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

Speaking of which, what is Shulk's current status in the metagame?

This happened to me recently:

It's actually possible to DI the first hit of Shulk's U-Smash to avoid the second hit. I've only tested with Sheik and Zero Suit Samus so far, which means floaties probably can't do much about it.

But seriously, is not having the worst frame data in the game enough for poor Shulk?

This has been known by Shulk players for awhile and only affect the hitboxes used when Sheik is right on top of Shulk. You shouldn't have to DI, just shield, though I don't know if the Smash art affected that.
You can still be hit by using the 'vacuum' hitboxes centered around Shulk's feet. I'm still hoping it's something that's fixed though.

You can check if this works for your character by going into training mode and seeing if point blank Shulk usmash is a true combo on your character or not. But you don't actually need to do that because it's Shulk and you're probably never going to meet one in tourney.

 

[LancerStaff]

The only buff that really is noticeable for FFAs is Wizkick, which is still pretty unsafe and is less problematic than stuff like ElectroShock Arm, and it really doesn't make him OP in FFAs, certainly not to the extent that it would ruin things for casuals. Plus if items are on it favors faster characters anyways. I don't think we'll get all that due to Sakurai's conservatism regarding patches but it can be done.

Wizkick isn't supposed to be Electroshock Arm... Isn't the clanking kinda a good thing (for FFAs) since Dorf stops without a truckload of lag? Electroshock stops so much if a projectile/thrown item gets close (not an exaggeration BTW) and he'll just stop there for fifty frames, and most of the time it just deflects it away uselessly. Due to the way it works it typically only catches one opponent anyway.

Not that it's still not ridiculous, but Dark Pit was "useless" in FFAs since Pit was that much better then him before. Electroshock is better then Pit's arrows more often then not in FFAs now, but at least you'll think twice. Also sniping Smash Balls with Pit is cool if you're playing with them, not that his Final Smash is anything special.

Items you can't really balance because they're mostly RNG... Although you're exaggerating how much speedsters get from them. Namely, where they spawn means much more then your character's speed, and the average item probably helps Dorf more then other characters. The typically overlooked Beam Sword and the like at worst gives him a projectile. At best it gives him faster, disjointed normals for as long as needed. Beam Sword especially, since I believe Dorf gets the most range from it.

 

[L9999]

So top 32 at PAX looking like:

TSM | ZeRo vs. TLOC | Denti

PG | MVD vs. MVG COG | Mew2King
GW | FOW vs. COG | Wizzrobe

iQHQ | Vinnie vs. TTN | MJG

2GG | VoiD vs. TTN | Karna

CLG | NAKAT vs. FX | Dakpo

PG | ESAM vs. UA | Jbandrew

THE | ANTi vs. Megafox

Losers

Dojo | BC vs. Speedy(?)

Phenom vs. Hakii

Hero of Winds(?) vs. KJ

VGBC | Logic vs. Mikeffect

Tesh vs. NiteZ

Ryze vs. SaSSy

Xyro vs. Phantasm (?)

Weegee vs. Dreadream

Pretty good for Top 32.

Samus, Palutena, Roy and Lucas? Interesting to see. Does ANTI plays Charizard?!

 

[JesterJaded]

After HaKii's performance at Shockwave 62, I'm glad to see he's still rolling Lucas; it'll be interesting to see how far he goes with the character, especially in a tournament with competition of this caliber.

Does anyone know who sent him to losers?

 

[Das Koopa]

Worth pointing out that Ryze wasn't exactly playing very well (For glory rolls up in here m8) and NiteZ struggled against maybe the worst Shulk player I've ever seen (It's on the VOD on Pax he only uses Buster/Speed) so take the Palutena/Roy tops with a grain of salt when it comes to skill pools unless they suddenly rumble through losers or something

Hakii was definitely great though

 

[Halifax?]

Question: Samus is bottom 5 in everybody's tier list these days yet I see her in top 32s unlike Zelda, Jigglypuff, Ganondorf, Lucina, Charizard. Why, memes?

 

[Megamang]

Interested in giving your thoughts on Mega vs Doc or ROB? He kinda bodies my main almost as hard as ZSS does lol.

Mario is a tough MU, but the slower doc isnt nearly as problematic. Basically you have to work way harder to zone break, get less reward in terms of combos but more per hit... your low SH is your greatest asset, quick bairs rack up damage safely.

Over mario, your fair is another big asset. In his zoning attempts, mega will be back to the ledge. A well placed fair can get you an earlier kill than mario should be landing.

Most importantly, your better gimping is a huge deal. Utilize it to kill mega offstage as often as possible. Learn his recovery (you can use rush yourself) inside and out and get gimps.

Quick post, gotta run. Any more stuff should probably go into the MU thread.

Oh, you can cape mega's uair and dair back for lulzy damage. Enjoy

 

[C0rvus]

I doubt many folks still think she's that low, but it's possible. If your tier list favors results most heavily, then there's no reason to make her bottom tier. Idk. Her being bad isn't even a meme, I think it's mostly misinformation.

 

[Nu~]

I doubt many folks still think she's that low, but it's possible. If your tier list favors results most heavily, then there's no reason to make her bottom tier. Idk. Her being bad isn't even a meme, I think it's mostly misinformation.

Or the scrubby FG stigma.

And those who still think Samus is a zoner lol

 

[FallofBrawl]

Samus, Palutena, Roy and Lucas? Interesting to see. Does ANTI plays Charizard?!

The Palutena and Roy don't seem that very good and probably got by through easy bracket, the Samus I have no clue, and Hakii is an amazing Lucas main, one of the best if not the best dedicated Lucas. He took shockwave by storm one week easily making it to gfs, but for some reason he went Samus and lost 6 games (albeit really close) against Gibus (#3 in Dallas imo).

As for Anti, he does play Zard, he's posted on Twitter that he's working on him along with Cloud.