Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[adom4]

May I ask why people think Charizard is bottom five?

He's not Sheik or anything but he's not THAT bad?

Like bottom 15 or something around there.

I think it's because almost no one plays him, i agree that he's not that bad.

 

[Flux0r]

jbandrew's Meta Knight is pure magic. Holy hell.

Is it just me, or does Pikachu struggle badly at killing some times?

 

[Djent]

I didn't catch the match, but MK probably beats Pika for...several reasons. Killing is definitely one of them.

 

[Luco]

MY HEART!

FOW just insanely clutched out game 5 against Wizzrobe. Ness at like 170% just barely surviving Fairs and everything and then a Ness Fair to missed tech by Wizzrobe got a stage spike kill (or was that un-techable?) that netted him the win.

It's also relevant that I literally just woke up to tune into that game 5. Was not expecting such a heart attack @.@

 

[Drarky]

After seeing Wizzrobe vs FOW, I'm really surprised to see how much dedication his Ness has, even though the character is very simple, FOW takes full advantage of every single element of the char.

 

[adom4]

MY HEART!

FOW just insanely clutched out game 5 against Wizzrobe. Ness at like 170% just barely surviving Fairs and everything and then a Ness Fair to missed tech by Wizzrobe got a stage spike kill that netted him the win.

FOW's recoveries are incredible, he spaced them so well.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

FOW's recoveries are incredible, he spaced them so well.

Quoted for emphasis. FOW's control of Ness's ability to weave so well REALLY helped him with the coverages Wizzrobe was throwing out.

 

[S_B]

or because Sheik amplifies his superior skills that much more?

Has this ever been in contention?

Sheik gives the most options for a skilled player to take advantage of, but those options are a bit too strong.

Remember, Zero mained Bowser during the 3DS days because people hadn't figured out how to counter Bowser yet. Once Sheik's meta developed to the point where Sheik was giving more bang per buck, that's when he switched (well, after Diddy, I mean).

 

[Kofu]

After seeing Wizzrobe vs FOW, I'm really surprised to see how much dedication his Ness has, even though the character is very simple, FOW takes full advantage of every single element of the char.

This can be considered true for every character, even "braindead" ones. Unless a move is just flat-out bad, people who specialize in a character will typically make use of all said character's moves in one way or another.

 

[Sonicninja115]

M2k almost takes out ZeRo, sorta.

Cloud is definitely an up-and-coming character though. There is always the fact that people can adapt to Cloud in the future, but we also have to remember that Cloud is only going to get better as knew set-ups and techs are discovered.

 

[Asdioh]

MY HEART!

FOW just insanely clutched out game 5 against Wizzrobe. Ness at like 170% just barely surviving Fairs and everything and then a Ness Fair to missed tech by Wizzrobe got a stage spike kill (or was that un-techable?) that netted him the win.

It's also relevant that I literally just woke up to tune into that game 5. Was not expecting such a heart attack @.@

The sad thing is, Wizz should have won that. If he just played patient and waited until Ness was in Ftilt KO range, it would've been a pretty safe win. I hadn't watched much of the stream, but I saw the same exact thing happen earlier: Vinnie's Sheik vs MJG's Villager. Vinnie was up 2-0, but still played patiently and got Villager to 200% before getting the Ftilt. It's very strange seeing how differently ZSS and Sheik play. ZSS kills you at 60%, Sheik waits until she gets a safe 200. Both are amazing. ._.

 

[MistressRemilia]

May I ask why people think Charizard is bottom five?

He's not Sheik or anything but he's not THAT bad?

Like bottom 15 or something around there.

To be honest with you, when a character is so underplayed that i can barely answer the question of why the character is that bad aside from " He's just a superheavy " ( As in, he has the flaws that many character of this weight class have ) , i'd rather just say this character is in the realm of Low tier just because of lackluster results & as some of the users in here already mentionned, "lackluster top & high tier matchups". Aside from that, I don't know anything about Zard except the basics of the character, hence why i'd usually retire from any discussion about Charizard's viability
When you dig a bit deeper into people's thoughts on Charizard, you'll soon notice a lack of knowledge on the character, even the basics such as all the pros & cons are sometimes unknown., and you can't really blame them, since it's not their fault fo not knowing the character when he's so obscure in the metagame.
This may lead into bad stigmas & misconceptions that will put the character lower than he should be.
That's what i've been experiencing for a while as a Doc main, and it still happens ( arguments over Doc's superior edgeguarding abilities over Mario, the niche of the character in the metagame, the list goes on )

 

[Wintropy]

Yep. 3-1

Vinnie vs. MJG up now.

Not bad! Cloud's resumé just keeps getting better!

May I ask why people think Charizard is bottom five?

He's not Sheik or anything but he's not THAT bad?

Like bottom 15 or something around there.

People are silly remember the pre-patch days when he was bad and he hasn't made enough of an impact to make people realise he's better now.

Don't take it to heart, it's a common trend in this community. Charizard just needs a good player to do well at a big event to get people's heads turning.

I know that's asking for the moon, but hey, nothing surprises with me in this meta!

I didn't catch the match, but MK probably beats Pika for...several reasons. Killing is definitely one of them.

That seems to be a problem, yeah. I've noticed how ESAM tends to skitter about quite a bit in neutral before he finds an opening to kill. Pika doesn't seem to have that many solid kill confirms, ESAM is just great at finding gaps in people's defenses and making something good of it.

To be honest with you, when a character is so underplayed that i can barely answer the question of why the character is that bad aside from " He's just a superheavy " ( As in, he has the flaws that many character of this weight class have ) , i'd rather just say this character is in the realm of Low tier just because of lackluster results & as some of the users in here already mentionned, "lackluster top & high tier matchups". Aside from that, I don't know anything about Zard except the basics of the character, hence why i'd usually retire from any discussion about Charizard's viability
When you dig a bit deeper into people's thoughts on Charizard, you'll soon notice a lack of knowledge on the character, even the basics such as all the pros & cons are sometimes unknown., and you can't really blame them, since it's not their fault fo not knowing the character when he's so obscure in the metagame.
This may lead into bad stigmas & misconceptions that will put the character lower than he should be.
That's what i've been experiencing for a while as a Doc main, and it still happens ( arguments over Doc's superior edgeguarding abilities over Mario, the niche of the character in the metagame, the list goes on )

First world problems here, but I kinda empathise as a Pit main.

Here we've got this character that people agree probably has potential to be Top 15 or just outside of it, and yet he's rarely brought up in conversation because he doesn't get much top-level rep outside of Earth and the occasional Nairo pop-off. I yearn for the day when Earth's western counterpart reveals himself and people really take notice of the angels.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Komorikiri beats Ranai on Stream. It is sorta unclear on exactly what the matches are though.

 

[Luco]

What a set! Another close finish from FOW against Vinnie. Anti also got pushed out of winners by Jband's MK (without using Mario, but that might be expected given his statement after G3). Now Anti vs KJ in losers.


EDIT: That ridiculous 2-stock though. NOW he's using Mario!

Anti took it with SJP to SJP, securing a top 8 spot.

 

[Amadeus9]

I'm still adamant MK is pika's worst MU

 

[Asdioh]

This Niconico stream doesn't even have the DLC. Were people... lying on the internet?

 

[Das Koopa]

FOW may be my favorite player right now. Not only is it fun to see him get rid of Sheiks, I love his PK Thunder play.

 

[David Viran]

This Niconico stream doesn't even have the DLC. Were people... lying on the internet?

Bayo and corrin prolly come with a new patch. They don't want the players play a patch they are not familiar with.

 

[Big-Cat]

We need Japanese Charlie Brown as the announcer for Smash 6.

 

[S_B]

We need Buff Japanese Charlie Brown as the announcer for Smash 6.

Fixed.

And yeah, they'll play with the new characters afterwards, I'm guessing.

 

[Radical Larry]

Bayo and corrin prolly come with a new patch. They don't want the players play a patch they are not familiar with.

Well, hehe, here's to hoping one of Link's attacks gets buffed. (Seriously, out of all the characters, he and Ganondorf are the ones with the most buffs between patches, as far as I know. And I'm talking numbers, not significance.)

 

[kaz99]

Aaaaaand Abadango beat Nario. Isn't this considered MK's worst match-up? He just beat 2 Zero Suits this event

 

[Big-Cat]

Actually, it's considered the other way around.

 

[Nu~]

When MK can still kill you off of a single punish, he's never truly out of the fight.

 

[Amadeus9]

MK matchups are weird, man.

 

[Wintropy]

MK matchups are weird, man.

My favourite response to this is the notion that MK doesn't have matchups in the traditional sense: he has characters his kill confirm works on and characters it does not work on.

Satirical, but not unfounded.

EDIT: Typos and stuff.

 

[Luco]

ESAM coming back from M2K's 2 game lead to win it, so tense!!

So PAX top 8 looking like:

Winners:

TSM | ZeRo

GW | FOW

2GG | VoiD

Jbandrew


Losers:

CLG | NAKAT

DM.THE | ANTi

PG | ESAM

IQHQ | Vinnie


That's:

x4

x2
x2
x2

x1
x1
x1

7 unique characters in top 8. Averagely decent I guess?

 

[Fatmanonice]

May I ask why people think Charizard is bottom five?

He's not Sheik or anything but he's not THAT bad?

Like bottom 15 or something around there.

-Virtually no high level representation and somehow has fewer players than notably worse characters like Palutena, Jigglypuff, and Little Mac.
-Low mobility means fast characters and projectile zoners can eat him alive.Who are most of the best characters in the game right now? Case in point.
-Arguably doesn't gain the match up ignorance boost that other heavies like Dedede and Bowser Jr do (partially because of the first point). To clarify, Bowser Jr players can reference players like Tweek and Dedede is pretty much this game's Low Tier Hero (meaning popular despite being kind of bad) as Falcon was in Brawl and Bowser was in Melee.
-Interest in the character somehow dipped even more after customs were banned so the character's metagame is in perpetual limbo (nobody plays as them because nobody really knows how to win with them and nobody really knows how to win with them because nobody plays as them)

I do agree that he's not that bad and a lot of his problems stem from no one using him. I think bottom ten is a fair assessment. Personally, I think he's in the same boat as Shulk and Marth, somebody who could probably be terrifying with the right minor buffs but it would still take time for his numbers to boost thanks to virtually nonexistent representation.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I feel like Pikachu might be a counter for Cloud......

 

[Plain Yogurt]

CLG | NAKAT (? Seen the other two but not Ness so far)

NAKAT beat Dakpo with Ness.

 

[Djent]

Abadango has convinced me that MK actually beats ZSS.

As for Pika vs. Cloud, it's...volatile. Both characters have what the other hates. Who knows?

 

[Luco]

JBandrew getting this far is really cool imo. Reminding us why MK is so potent. Also return of Fox makes me happy.

In the meantime, where is Sonic at big tournaments? 13th from 6WX at G3 is certainly good but does it alone warrant Sonic as a top 5 contender? What about other recent events?

 

[Amadeus9]

I feel like Pikachu might be a counter for Cloud......

uh what, are you sure about that

 

[A10theHero]

jbandrew's Meta Knight is pure magic. Holy hell.

Is it just me, or does Pikachu struggle badly at killing some times?

Yep. The struggle is real.
At higher percents, he basically has no combos.

That seems to be a problem, yeah. I've noticed how ESAM tends to skitter about quite a bit in neutral before he finds an opening to kill. Pika doesn't seem to have that many solid kill confirms, ESAM is just great at finding gaps in people's defenses and making something good of it.

I just want to correct something, if you don't mind. Pikachu only has one kill confirm. And for it to even be considered true, you have to buffer and Thunder and back during Pikachu's four frame jumpsquat after an up throw. (He also has a pseudo kill confirm via fastfall fair to up smash but I don't count that) He has lots of kill potential in moves like Forward Smash and such, but not really any confirms.

I feel like Pikachu might be a counter for Cloud......

It's possible. Yesterday, ZeRo told ESAM that Cloud beat Pikachu and then they had a $20 money match. ESAM won. (And then later that day, ESAM got thoroughly beaten by ZeRo's Diddy) If ESAM actually could beat ZeRo when he used Cloud, then maybe it's in Pikachu's favor (though that could have happened because ZeRo doesn't play Cloud as much as Diddy or Sheik).

 

[Twiranitar]

My favourite response to this is the notion that MK doesn't have matchups in the traditional sense: he has characters his kill confirm works on and characters it does not work on.

MK kill confirm works on everyone

 

[Luco]

MK's kill confirm works on everyone, but isn't it easier to DI the upB 50/50 on some characters? Probably wrong about this.

 

[warionumbah2]

How are people gonna say MK has no MUs when sheik decimates him? If MK cant win neutral it wont matter, jbandrew has to play void next, yet another mk to die to this guy. Honestly choco DI methods were awful, he DIs the down throw up and away twice, that whole game looked fishy.

All he had to do was hold away yet he picked the worst possible DI method twice in one game.

 

[C0rvus]

So Charizard is a weird case where the character has practically zero representation, and also is not very impressive, so why even play him? Obviously, that makes me interested in him. He is very good at "the game" in it's most basic form. He has good Rock/Paper/Scissors tools like a long grab, very good jab and OoS Fly. He kills early and consistently, and is pretty hard to kill. He's good at Smash Bros.

That said, he tapers off somewhere, clearly. Very short combos, very bad air mobility and sucks hard at landing. He's juggle food. You can trade with Rock Smash I guess? But mess that up and die. Zard has some good bread and butter stuff (jab, grab, nair, Flamethrower), and can sit on a lead abuse rage super hard, but in general is very high commitment. That's bad.

His strengths exist but his weaknesses are very hyperbolic. Like, maybe an increase in air mobility would help his landing struggles and let him carve out a niche among the heavies. I have yet to take him to a tournament but from what I've played, he's got some bad top tier MUs. Who knows, man.

Also Meta Knight is top 5.

 

[Wintropy]

I just want to correct something, if you don't mind. Pikachu only has one kill confirm. And for it to even be considered true, you have to buffer and Thunder and back during Pikachu's four frame jumpsquat after an up throw. (He also has a pseudo kill confirm via fastfall fair to up smash but I don't count that) He has lots of kill potential in moves like Forward Smash and such, but not really any confirms.

Well I guess that just proves it, haha. Thanks for clearing that up!

And don't worry about correcting me. I don't know enough about Pikachu to make an informed judgement, I'm just going by observation. I'm happy to be educated!

MK kill confirm works on everyone

You know what I mean~

I guess it would be better to say "characters it works on reliably" and "characters it doesn't work on quite as reliably". But more realistically I think it comes down to who can beat him in neutral, who doesn't get edgeguarded to hell and back by him, who can kill him with reasonable efficiency and who has an easier time escaping the Stairway to Heaven Hell. I know some characters can DI out of it more effectively due to their gravity and whatnot, I take it that's something to consider when discussing his matchups?