Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[S_B]

I think we found another legal stage. I need to see more of Baya and Coren to judge.
Edit: THEY ARE GETTING RELESED ON FEB 3RD

http://www.twitch.tv/nintendopsx/v/38884057 ~@ 24:42 but yeah, I see no reason this stage cannot be legal.

All of the BG stuff is purely BG stuff.

edit: d

 

[Fatmanonice]

Poor Ike, can't seem to catch a break. Starts out as one of the worst swordsmen in the game, gets a billion buffs, but gets surpassed by Metaknight, Cloud, and seemingly Corrin. Wonder who the lucky buff dump recipients this time will be.

 

[Vipermoon]

So apparently Marth is getting buffed big-time, his tipper fair does 13% now!? It only did 10% before.

カムイ、ベヨネッタのプレイムービーでマルスのフラッグ先端のダメージ13%になってる！
これは超強化かな？ pic.twitter.com/Xn71NPIoFR

— レオ/Reo (@Reo_ssb) January 31, 2016

Nope. It was fresh. There was another tipper Fair that did 12% later in the video on a fresh stock (2% buff). Also tipper Uair does 13% (up from 12). The first tipper Uair in that match was supposed to be a sourspot in my opinion. Uair tipper is easier to get a la Melee and Brawl?

 

[LancerStaff]

Obviously it's silly to assume accurate frame data from videos without the fighter not being released yet, but if anyone wants to have a general idea of Bayonetta's start-up the 60fps 1v1 does a decent job. This is for her jab.

Frame 9? Uh... That's not so good. That's Dorf level startup. She's going to have a heck of a time dealing with rushdown unless she has something fast up her sleeve.

 

[Big-Cat]

Frame 9? Uh... That's not so good. That's Dorf level startup. She's going to have a heck of a time dealing with rushdown unless she has something fast up her sleeve.

Witch Time

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Oh wow the Yato is a lot longer than I thought. REALLY liking how Corrin looks so far.

 

[C0rvus]

Corrin Discord is saying his down throw has horrendous looking lag. I'll of course reserve my opinions until actually playing the character. I will say he looks faster than I expected! I'm excited!

 

[LancerStaff]

Witch Time

Ain't that just a doofy counter?

 

[Big-Cat]

Ain't that just a doofy counter?

Way more than that.

 

[HeavyLobster]

I guess Sakurai feels he isn't of the same ilk as his super-heavy brethren? Maybe he thinks Charizard is supposed to be more mixup and aerial-oriented (despite his morally reprehensible airspeed) than a straight-up grappler. Most Charizards I've seen have a decent grasp of their air game and heavy punishes with his specials, while DK and Bowser are more interested in poking and grabbing to press home the advantage.

I have no idea, I'm struggling to think of the design philosophy behind DK and Bowser being equipped with solid grab conversions while Zard has nothing of the sort. My gut instinct is that he may be buffed similarly in future (Bowser's buff didn't come a few months until after DK's, despite being the same in principle), but that's totally grasping at straws.

It's a shame he's outclassed by the other heavies in the important respects, he's a pretty diverse character in terms of options and he could fill an interesting niche if he had something unique going for him. Definitely better than people give him credit for, but still not impressive enough to stand out.

Zard does have decent grab combos and a kill throw. It's just that he's not quite as strong as the other heavies and his advantages over them aren't enough to matter in many situations. Doesn't matter if he has better landing options than Bowser if they're still lacking enough for him to not be able to land vs. Sheik/ZSS. He's not that bad, but he's not really good enough to matter either, and doesn't have as much fan loyalty as someone like .

 

[Patriot Duck]

Ain't that just a doofy counter?

A counter with a built-in anti-punish mechanic.

Granted, we won't truly know how useful that'll be until she's released.

 

[Wintropy]

Zard does have decent grab combos and a kill throw. It's just that he's not quite as strong as the other heavies and his advantages over them aren't enough to matter in many situations. Doesn't matter if he has better landing options than Bowser if they're still lacking enough for him to not be able to land vs. Sheik/ZSS. He's not that bad, but he's not really good enough to matter either, and doesn't have as much fan loyalty as someone like .

That's what I mean, yeah. His grab game isn't bad at all, but it doesn't have the same conversion / kill potential that DK and Bowser's do, and as you say, he doesn't have any notable advantages over them to ensure he's relevant.

"He's not that bad, but he's not really good enough to matter either" may as well be the mantra for Charizard's meta.

 

[Vipermoon]

Corrin Discord is saying his down throw has horrendous looking lag. I'll of course reserve my opinions until actually playing the character. I will say he looks faster than I expected! I'm excited!

Who cares? The Dthrow does 10%. Obviously it's a damage and positioning throw.

 

[Wintropy]

I'm interested in seeing how Corrin's "Sticky Spear" functions. We didn't see much of it in the test matches.

Oh yeah, and Bayo's frame 9 jab is a bit concerning, but it seems to be more for building up damage than anything. I think she'll have plenty of other options with fast startup to thwart rushdown offensives.

Re: balance patches, it is indeed very short notice for Sakurai to go home and nerf the more troublesome kill confirms, but it's possible they were under scrutiny before now and have been worked on in advance. This may just be the confirmation he needs to finally drop the hammer.

 

[LancerStaff]

Way more than that.

Not seeing it. Like, at all. An overtuned counter is still a counter.

Re: balance patches, it is indeed very short notice for Sakurai to go home and nerf the more troublesome kill confirms, but it's possible they were under scrutiny before now and have been worked on in advance. This may just be the confirmation he needs to finally drop the hammer.

Well, presumably there's at least one more after Corrin and Bayo, maybe more depending on what they're doing for (or if they're currently making) SSBNX.

 

[ARGHETH]

Who cares? The Dthrow does 10%. Obviously it's a damage and positioning throw.

Corrin probably lacks a combo throw (like Cloud), as Bthrow, Dthrow, and Uthrow have all been seen and none look like they'll combo into anything.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Oh yeah, and Bayo's frame 9 jab is a bit concerning

Please wait until the character gets here. We can't properly assume anything by footage alone.

We'll know for sure via data dumps/rote testing.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Vipermoon]

I, too, would love to hear EVERYTHING Sakurai said. He was talking a lot.

About Bayo's start-up. It was already revealed that she has bad start-up in her presentation from before. This is a very clever way of balancing what otherwise looks like a possible top tier character. I like the cleverness here.

 

[Dr.Smex]

I hope her gameplan isn't just fishing for witch time please samurai give it a draw back.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well here's my predictions for the changes:

Meta Knight's U-Air and U-Spec are likely going to have worse frame data or KBG. That or all of his attacks are going to get dunked on.
Zero Suit Samus is definitely going to lose a lot of things. Probably weaker attacks or worse combo game.
Sheik's in the same position as ZSS, but will probably lose a lot of speed on attacks.
Somehow we'll see more major Link and Ganondorf buffs because Sakurai loves those characters. Seeing as how they ALWAYS get buffed in every patch, I'm including them on the list for that reason.
Cloud's going to probably get a Limit Break nerf.
Is it me, or is anyone expecting Sonic to get nerfed big time with combos? Anyone waiting for that?
Does anyone hope for some R.O.B. and Ryu nerfs?

I hope her gameplan isn't just fishing for witch time please samurai give it a draw back.

Yeah, it's called grabs, grab commands and projectiles.

 

[Gunla]

Please wait until the character gets here. We can't properly assume anything by footage alone.

We'll know for sure via data dumps/rote testing.

Smooth Criminal

I have no issue restating this but I can't stress it enough.

We're getting these characters in just a few short days, and we shouldn't assume things extensively that aren't immediately noticeable (IE: damage %). Footage can only get us so much information because frame data isn't readily available.

 

[Djmarcus44]

I hope her gameplan isn't just fishing for witch time please samurai give it a draw back.

According to the final presentation, Witch time's ability to keep an opponent from moving decreases as the move gets used more often.

 

[thehard]

Sakurai enjoys how people can play the same character differently.

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) January 31, 2016

@FosterOEK He just said each one of the characters is carefully crafted by the whole team
[1]

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) January 31, 2016

@AllSourceGaming @FosterOEK Implying he's not worried about the balance or one character being stronger than another [2]

— Source Gaming (@AllSourceGaming) January 31, 2016

@AllSourceGaming @FosterOEK "There was absolutely no favoritism for Meta Knight." 😉

— Matt⁷ 💜 マット (@furdmatt) January 31, 2016

I'm sure we'll hear more of this in the coming days, Source Gaming is on the ball with Sakurai translations.

 

[Vipermoon]

What I liked about that little tourney is that it showcases all of the stupid stuff in this game (MK, ZSS, Cloud) right in front of Sakurai's face while he basically comments. That's why I need a translator. I'll even pay you.

Edit: Thank you to Source Gaming @PushDustIn. Hopefully they do the whole thing.

 

[Kurri ★]

What I liked about that little tourney is that is showcases all of the stupid stuff in this game (MK, ZSS, Cloud) right in front of Sakurai's face. That's why I need a translator. I'll even pay you.

Well he saw and it seems like he's okay with it

 

[Amadeus9]

Something of note: Bayo's roll looks like one of the worst in the game. It's really, really bad.

Also, I've been analyzing Corrin pretty closely from the videos we have. Her fsmash looks legitimately MK tier lagless. literally. camping with fsmash. at half stage length. oh yey

Nair has a very nonsense knockback angle that like combos into anything.

Fair directly combos into uair, absolutely no doubt about that. If uair has any decent KBG fair > uair looks busted as all hell. Oh also, dash attack combo'd into fair. rofl.

this fighter is fast as hell dude

Fair and bair either autocancel or have nonexistant end lag. also huge disjoint.

dtilt and utilt look busted, utilt can literally be spammed to impunity


THIS IS SUPER PREMATURE BUT BAH GAWD THIS FIGHTER LOOKS LIKE SOMETHING ELSE I WILL TELL YA WHAT

also, really good projectile.

also side b. lmao. offstage kill move and meta destroyer for dubs. Cloud + corrin will potentially be the new Sheik + gnw.

If mk gets touched in the patch i know where im running

 

[Solfiner]

I'm fully expecting the final balance patch to only buff characters. I mean Sheik nerfs would be nice but we'll live without them.

 

[FallofBrawl]

It's highly unlikely MK is getting touched despite what Sakurai saw. He's never involved with the active balancing, he just approves the changes made by the balance team, which were probably made way before the tournament.

MK is also Sakurai's baby.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It still amazes me that you people think devs dont already know about certain levels of bull**** before we discover it.
MK's confirms are not hard and many are easy enough to find just by messing with him in practice mode for a couple of hours. You think no one on the dev team noticed them?

Highly unlikely.

 

[Amadeus9]

It still amazes me that you people think devs dont already know about certain levels of bull**** before we discover it.
MK's confirms are not hard and many are easy enough to find just by messing with him in practice mode for a couple of hours. You think no one on the dev team noticed them?

Highly unlikely.

i was actually just talking about this with someone else. its all intended. all of it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Also, I've been analyzing Corrin pretty closely and blah blah hype

Somebody made a list of damage and it's all basically worse then Pit's... Poor damage output may be a problem.

Also doesn't appear to have a solid way to kill outside of Fsmash which supposedly needs a tipper.

 

[S_B]

i was actually just talking about this with someone else. its all intended. all of it.

Eh, then SSB4 for Brawl tier and time to look forward to SSB5 which will hopefully be directed by someone else.

In all seriousness, though, if Sakurai actually thinks everything fine in its current iteration, then he or the team just aren't very good at balancing in general.

The real problem is that the roster is heavily, HEAVILY polarized by kill confirms. Characters who have them are going to rise (and we see this already). Characters that don't are going to flounder around before inevitably finding their way to F-tier.

Basically, good frame data + kill confirms = high tier. Everyone else may as well not even be on the character select screen for competitive purposes.

 

[Amadeus9]

Somebody made a list of damage and it's all basically worse then Pit's... Poor damage output may be a problem.

Also doesn't appear to have a solid way to kill outside of Fsmash which supposedly needs a tipper.

I dont know how you can not watch these videos and not see how good this fighter will be lmao.

also, look at the knockback side b does at around 30 seconds in on the 1v1 and tell me that move wont be a completely nuts ko move. if you think not, you are deluded

 

[LancerStaff]

I dont know how you can not watch these videos and not see how good this fighter will be lmao.

also, look at the knockback side b does at around 30 seconds in on the 1v1 and tell me that move wont be a completely nuts ko move. if you think not, you are deluded

People said the same for E3 Bowser and Little Mac. Sure got them far... Heck, people were and still are saying the same thing about effin' Roy when we were actually playing as him.

Like, you may want to turn the hype down just a notch.

 

[JesterJaded]

It amazes me that some people think every conceivable combo in a fighting game has already been tested and accounted for pre-release, but hey, this argument just goes in circles, and it doesn't even matter if it's one or the other; balance teams make mistakes, and even intended content can end up becoming very bad ideas. I personally would like to believe the balance team goofed and the ladders slipped through the cracks in development, much like the disaster that was Brawl MK.

If the meta becomes increasingly over centralized on kill confirms and frame data / those special snowflakes that have super safe options in neutral and end up leaving over half the cast unviable, I'm switching over to SLHG. At least that ensures most characters won't be screwed over by frame data favoritism in regards to the neutral (or at least, not as much in vanilla).

 

[wedl!!]

For the last time.

They aren't out. Not optimized yet. We don't know what they're ideally going to do in neutral. Stop speculating hardcore it's literally meaningless.

Also speaking of optimization; Bayonetta's kill confirms. Definintely going to be testing them, if she racks you up to kill % really early but can't do anything it's Roy 2.0. Just with bullets.

 

[Charoite]

please stop with the hyperbole and try to balance 58 character game for multiple formats, tell me what games have a character roster this big and be balanced as this game in the same time frame very few.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I don't know, I'm kind of not worried about characters when people exclaim about a super poor/polarizing aspect they have.

Like I'm pretty confident Bayonettas startup and roll is going to be compensated for, and compensated really well.

Like Cloud's recovery.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Eh, then SSB4 for Brawl tier and time to look forward to SSB5 which will hopefully be directed by someone else.

In all seriousness, though, if Sakurai actually thinks everything fine in its current iteration, then he or the team just aren't very good at balancing in general.

The real problem is that the roster is heavily, HEAVILY polarized by kill confirms. Characters who have them are going to rise (and we see this already). Characters that don't are going to flounder around before inevitably finding their way to F-tier.

Basically, good frame data + kill confirms = high tier. Everyone else may as well not even be on the character select screen for competitive purposes.

Welcome to FIGHTING GAMES!!!!

Where the GOOD chars can kill off a simple opening with easy confirms and if you dont have a good confirm you are WORTHLESS!!!!!

Said it before, and I will say it again.

Super Smash Brothers: Third Strike Edition

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It still amazes me that you people think devs dont already know about certain levels of bull**** before we discover it.
MK's confirms are not hard and many are easy enough to find just by messing with him in practice mode for a couple of hours. You think no one on the dev team noticed them?

Highly unlikely.

Well it's not a matter of if they notice things or not. I tend to question the developers thought process. Especially, when you play the same game made by the same people. It's just like who which dev thought that was a good idea. Also even the dev's can't predict everything that will be discovered.