Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[FallofBrawl]

Well it's not a matter of if they notice things or not. I tend to question the developers thought process. Especially, when you play the same game made by the same people. It's just like who which dev thought that was a good idea. Also even the dev's can't predict everything that will be discovered.

Well, I mean, it's not like they don't have internet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

The thought process was probably "hey this **** is HYPE!!! Lets leave it in."

But no seriously, do they know he had easy confirms? Probably. Did they know he could convert off damn near anything in neutral AND kill so early? Probably not.

HOWEVER, they clearly know about it now. So we shall see if they nerf it or not. I dont think it will happen but meh what do i know?

I'm just a wandering warrior that is the last of an ancient clan of witches, who was experimented on and infused with the cells of a psychotic master swordsman that has delusions of godhood.

 

[LancerStaff]

Like I'm pretty confident Bayonettas startup and roll is going to be compensated for, and compensated really well.

Like Cloud's recovery.

Or it could just not be, like half the roster and their weaknesses. Only two of the five DLC characters are anything special, and two of the not-so-specials were junk before buffs. Not exactly good odds.

 

[JesterJaded]

I think compensating for recovery is easier than compensating for startup. In order to take advantage of Cloud's recovery you have to get him offstage first, which is easier said than done with his autocancels, disjoints, and threat of limit. Even then, Limit can circumvent his weak recovery entirely.

Meanwhile we have a plethora of characters in low tier that show the results of "compensating" for bad frame data.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The thought process was probably "hey this **** is HYPE!!! Lets leave it in."

But no seriously, do they know he had easy confirms? Probably. Did they know he could convert off damn near anything in neutral AND kill so early? Probably not.

HOWEVER, they clearly know about it now. So we shall see if they nerf it or not. I dont think it will happen but meh what do i know?

I'm just a wandering warrior that is the last of an ancient clan of witches, who was experimented on and infused with the cells of a psychotic master swordsman that has delusions of godhood.

I think they know now and just don't give a damn anymore. Honestly, there isn't a fighter without some level of BS in it. So it's going to be interesting to see.

 

[wedl!!]

I still see Bayonetta as a far less dysfunctional Falco due to actually having mobility mixups alongside the high damage and combo game.

Although IDK how Bullet Climax compares to Lazers. In all the VODs they weren't used much at all. Bullet Arts seem fine though.

This is now the extent of my theorycraft based on five minutes of footage from a girl who's mad hyped for Bayonetta.

Signed, wedl.

EDIT: Kamui reminds me of an uncanny GnW with less windbox gimmicks and combos. I don't know why it's just that their neutrals seem really similar.

 

[Radical Larry]

Is anyone waiting for those Ryu nerfs yet? I think we need them.

 

[wedl!!]

Care to elaborate on why we "need them"?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I still see Bayonetta as a far less dysfunctional Falco due to actually having mobility mixups alongside the high damage and combo game.

Although IDK how Bullet Climax compares to Lazers. In all the VODs they weren't used much at all. Bullet Arts seem fine though.

This is now the extent of my theorycraft based on five minutes of footage.

Signed, wedl.

I mean, Falco has a boxing game to work with at the very least due to his good frame data on tilts and his jab. I'm not sure Bayonetta will have the same luxury due to her much worse startup on a majority of her moves, particularly jab. I'm thinking she's more of a bait and punish character like ZSS or MK, except with much worse frame data.

 

[NWRL]

Welcome to FIGHTING GAMES!!!!

Where the GOOD chars can kill off a simple opening with easy confirms and if you dont have a good confirm you are WORTHLESS!!!!!

Said it before, and I will say it again.

Super Smash Brothers: Third Strike Edition

Don't ever compare any Smash game to Third Strike

They're nowhere near as good.

 

[wedl!!]

Yeah their gameplay styles are different.

There's just a lot of weird opposites/parallels. Although bootleg ZSS/MK is more accurate I just think of Falco first thing. No idea why.

Don't ever compare any Smash game to Third Strike

They're nowhere near as good.

Okay that's a level of subjectivity I'm not touching.

 

[JesterJaded]

I don't see anything particularly MK / ZSS jank tier worthy from Ryu. His neutral isn't exactly bonkers on account of his mobility, so he can be kept at midrange relatively well, but when he gets in he wrecks you - that's how he's designed to work, after all. His reward matches the effort it takes to get in.

 

[Radical Larry]

Care to elaborate on why we "need them"?

True Shoryuken is practically a given kill move that needs KO nerfing to make it kill at 110% on Mario or have its invulnerability removed, Tatsumaki should send Ryu into helplessness instead of giving him an all too easy recovery, U-Tilt needs 2 to 3 frames more start up (endlag can be the same, start up needs nerfing), same goes for D-Tilt. Ryu also deserves some damage nerfs on F-Air, Tatsu and Shoryu.

All of this would make Ryu fair. "It'll ruin Ryu's meta game" is a statement I might expect, but you know, at least it will balance him out compared to most of the other cast. It would at least make him a fair character that would need better strategies to advance his meta game.

I don't see anything particularly MK / ZSS jank tier worthy from Ryu. His neutral isn't exactly bonkers on account of his mobility, so he can be kept at midrange relatively well, but when he gets in he wrecks you - that's how he's designed to work, after all. His reward matches the effort it takes to get in.

But having a U-Tilt that basically locks you into U-Tilt and D-Tilt that keeps you too much in place, just for a powerful attack that kills you around 75% damage is just overpowering. Yeah, you can say that he'd need the work put into it, but seeing as I've known him as the type of character who baits and punishes, I don't think he would particularly need those anymore.

Heck, I'd be okay if U-Tilt had increase knockback for higher damage. But the one thing I hope for is that True Shoryuken gets the nerf of a lifetime. The others are rather negligible of what I want but would be somewhat nice to see.

 

[Charoite]

Yes why people think that having kill confirms,setups or strong options in general aren't what the balancing team want, in fact they probably want that type of stuff, remember cool flashy and fast things are what the smash crowd in general likes (case in point melee), and they want to take things slowly but precise(look at various character that has been buffed particularly Ike, mewtwo and kirby)

I think compensating for recovery is easier than compensating for startup. In order to take advantage of Cloud's recovery you have to get him offstage first, which is easier said than done with his autocancels, disjoints, and threat of limit. Even then, Limit can circumvent his weak recovery entirely.

Meanwhile we have a plethora of characters in low tier that show the results of "compensating" for bad frame data.

there are actually very few bad characters in the game the consensus is that 15 or less are truly awful, 1/4 of the cast is actually good for such a massive roster we should wait before predicting predicting gloom and doom for a still developing game.

 

[C0rvus]

Edit: pah, ignore this. Not gonna fuel the fire.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Is anyone waiting for those Ryu nerfs yet? I think we need them.

I've been waiting for them since a week after Ryu dropped.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Care to elaborate on why we "need them"?

Because I'm salty that Ryu has more reward once he gets in than Ganondorf.

 

[Radical Larry]

Are you sure this isn't bait? How exactly do we need Ryu nerfs of this manner? What tournaments is he winning? What characters does he invalidate? Get out of here. "Let's gut this character for no real reason lol."

First of all, he places relatively well in tournaments and has a lot of tournament representation; you literally just have to look around the web for it, it shouldn't be that hard. He also seems to have so many set ups into that Up Tilt that it's actually crazy to go against. And as for characters he invalidates, how about as my prime examples from experience? What can these characters do against Ryu when he's in and he's roaring against them?

His True Shoryuken kills so early for a special attack and having it nerfed to KO a 90% to 100% on Mario would actually balance it out alongside increased knockback scaling on his U-Tilt instead of U-Tilt having such low knockback.

As compensation, he could have a better Down Throw combo ability, a better kill throw and increased speed on his Smashes. Because I'll be honest, his U-Tilt and True Shoryuken shenanigans get annoying really fast.

And don't think I don't know how to punish True Shoryuken if I block. Yeah, I know how to counter attack it, but my beef is more in line about the power of the attack, not the difficulty of punishing or really anything else.

But you know, we'll have to see what happens in order to find out.
All of this is hoping, and I'm hoping Ryu gets some sort of nerf alongside the other top tiers.

 

[C0rvus]

Invalidating bottom tier characters doesn't make Ryu special, it makes him a high tier.

 

[Dr.Smex]

More Corrin vs Bayonetta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3PNwEKzYnw&feature=youtu.be

 

[Radical Larry]

Invalidating bottom tier characters doesn't make Ryu special, it makes him a high tier.

Before I start, those were just some examples; I just listed the more prominent examples.

(Ganondorf's lower middle, in my opinion, but that's beside the point.)

Ryu has some pretty good MUs against high tiers and top tiers pretty often. There might be some ways to work around him, like using a projectile character to make him rush in, but if he gets in and gets that U-Tilt, not a single bit of DI will save you unless you manage to get to the ground, which is harder than it seems.

From personal experience, Ryu is the kind of character who benefits from making you very angry or frustrated (Meta Knight, Diddy Kong and ROB do this to larger extents). But the one character I can actually get around Ryu with is surprisingly Link. Call me a schmuck for saying it, but I haven't found a single Ryu that I haven't won a single match against with Link; every Ryu I meet, at least one match with my Link will result in a win (either when I just pull him out or figure out the opponent's style).

If Ryu had a nerf on True Shoryuken only, with damage or knockback nerfed, he would still be a pretty powerful foe. If he had more KB scaling on Up Tilt, he'd still be a strong character, but at least he'd be a character that would have more balances MUs.

Ryu's often called a very high tier or a top tier character all because of what he can perform. Just some nerfs on him would do wonders for actual balance.

 

[C0rvus]

Sorry, but your gripes with Ryu seem very misguided and I disagree with most of them. I wouldn't complain if his True Shoryuken got nerfed but nerfing his main moves and giving him a down throw combo and kill throw? I'd rather not homogenize the cast like that. Ryu is at least a different breed among high tiers. His neutral isn't overwhelming. His reward is, but he has to get in, which takes effort in most matchups.

I would love if the next patch focused on buffs to the likes of Charizard, Duck Hunt, Jigglypuff, and Dedede.

 

[MachoCheeze]

This community is way too fixated on having throw combos.

 

[JesterJaded]

This community is way too fixated on having throw combos.

Shields in this game being powerful = beating shield is important = reward for beating shield is important. Them's the breaks.

That said, it isn't the be-all end-all of character viability, as we've seen from characters like Cloud.

 

[Latias]

Sorry, but your gripes with Ryu seem very misguided and I disagree with most of them. I wouldn't complain if his True Shoryuken got nerfed but nerfing his main moves and giving him a down throw combo and kill throw? I'd rather not homogenize the cast like that. Ryu is at least a different breed among high tiers. His neutral isn't overwhelming. His reward is, but he has to get in, which takes effort in most matchups.

I would love if the next patch focused on buffs to the likes of Charizard, Duck Hunt, Jigglypuff, and Dedede.

Buffs across the board to most of the low and mid tier characters would be awesome - also toning shiek/zss down a little bit to bring them in line with the rest of the high tiers would make the game much more fun with lots more variety. It looks like Marth at least was buffed so hopefully Sakurai is on the right track.

Before I start, those were just some examples; I just listed the more prominent examples.

(Ganondorf's lower middle, in my opinion, but that's beside the point.)

Ryu has some pretty good MUs against high tiers and top tiers pretty often. There might be some ways to work around him, like using a projectile character to make him rush in, but if he gets in and gets that U-Tilt, not a single bit of DI will save you unless you manage to get to the ground, which is harder than it seems.

From personal experience, Ryu is the kind of character who benefits from making you very angry or frustrated (Meta Knight, Diddy Kong and ROB do this to larger extents). But the one character I can actually get around Ryu with is surprisingly Link. Call me a schmuck for saying it, but I haven't found a single Ryu that I haven't won a single match against with Link; every Ryu I meet, at least one match with my Link will result in a win (either when I just pull him out or figure out the opponent's style).

If Ryu had a nerf on True Shoryuken only, with damage or knockback nerfed, he would still be a pretty powerful foe. If he had more KB scaling on Up Tilt, he'd still be a strong character, but at least he'd be a character that would have more balances MUs.

Ryu's often called a very high tier or a top tier character all because of what he can perform. Just some nerfs on him would do wonders for actual balance.

I thought you were quitting?

 

[Luco]

It's horrendously disrespectful to insinuate anyone should leave for having an opinion, however far-fetched it may seem. It bugs me that people would be that rude to one another. We've all been through the same loops Larry is going through right now, so we should really be using some empathy and understanding when we address these points.

So for my actual response...

Ryu is just one of the high tiers that have ludicrous damage output and kill confirms. Say goodbye to half of your stock if you get grabbed by ZSS or DA-ed by MK (if not the entire stock). Whiff an attack against Ness at 110% and the most defensive option in the game won't be saving you. Sheik will combo you to hell and back whether you space well against her or not.

Radical Larry - what I'm trying to say here is, the majority of the roster don't have the ability to keep up with the top tiers of this game when they're "in and roaring" against them. That's... how being good works. You have some kind of advantage (or several) that you can push to a far greater degree than your opponent. The characters you mentioned struggle in disadvantage against these characters because they lack the right tools, but that's not a Ryu-specific problem, it's a top tier vs middle and lower tier phenomenon.

So I understand where you're coming from and how you feel, but I would suggest that you think about the nature of games where characters can and are better than one another. It's unfair, but pulling out a single brick won't dis-assemble your wall.

 

[Radical Larry]

Luco Actually, pulling out the cornerstone of a wall will dis-assemble it due to the part of it holding it together being gone, but I know what you're saying. But you know, it's been quite a while since I've last fought a pretty professional Ryu player legitimately, and yet I'm still searching for that person (and I'm sure as hell Emblem Lord isn't that one). Ryu's just one of two characters I just want to find ways to beat, I want to become so good against Ryu so I'd know what would happen if I go against one as Link.

I need to understand that what makes THEM tick, and I know for a fact I can do it with Link of all characters.

Latias I sometimes wondered that myself. Let me pull out my Falco and raise you three Links.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Really, I think the main change to the game needs to be to the core mechanics. Shielding and sheild grabbing shouldn't be as overpowered as they are now. Neither should rolling. So many character in this game are crippled by being unable to deal these mechanics.

 

[Radical Larry]

Really, I think the main change to the game needs to be to the core mechanics. Shielding and sheild grabbing shouldn't be as overpowered as they are now. Neither should rolling. So many character in this game are crippled by being unable to deal these mechanics.

Well, Rolling isn't a problem, people can deal with that. It's turn around rolling that needs to have a bit of a nerf.
And what do you propose about shielding and shield grabbing?

 

[Vipermoon]

Rolling for sure needs a frame or two more end lag. Specifically the 26 and 27 total frame rolls that the high and top tiers posses are the biggest issues. Rolling is not just a problem online. In tourney characters like Diddy and Sheik can roll almost for free.

 

[Yikarur]

Rolls are too fast. I'd love them to be nerfed in Duration but it's not gonna happen.
Why do people still think shields are broken in this game? Shielding isn't that good. Powershielding is good. But most moves are safe on normal shield if spaced.

 

[thehard]

@GunbladeSWR @shofu @Abadangowario GFs was me vs aba and we uair upb each other both sets lmao sakurai was watching he said he was amazed

— Nairo (@NairoMK) January 31, 2016

This has the funniest implication

 

[Broqan]

Ignore nevermind

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But most moves are safe on normal shield if spaced.

They're also fairly inconsequential. Being able to block 3 moves in a row, then fall back and regain your shield in a matter of seconds isn't unusual in smash 4.

 

[Teshie U]

They're also fairly inconsequential. Being able to block 3 moves in a row, then fall back and regain your shield in a matter of seconds isn't unusual in smash 4.

This all comes back to rolling again. Smash 4 would have fantastic shield pressure if it wasn't so easy to just roll away safely and "fall back". If we had Smash 4 shields and spotdodges with Brawl rolls, this game would speed up quite a bit.

 

[DblCrest]

Can't wait to see what Kirby gets out of Corrin and Bayonetta's Neutral specials.
Given how short the puffball is I can see stealing Bayo's would be great XD Always nice for him to have a more useable projectile!

Wonder what he'll get this time out of the patches.

New stage is looking nice as well. Then again it wouldn't bother me if it had hazards anyway.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Alright, so I'm gonna categorize every character based on the balance patch. Also make a prediction.

Nerfed top tiers:(The last three weren't nerfed much though)

Also nerfed:

Nerfed only a tiny bit:

Nerfed in the 3ds days because we got too many complaints:

Needs to be nerfed/People want him nerfed:

Got nothing, is okay with nothing:

Buffed a lot:

Buffed a tiny bit:

Got buffed but yet I still need buffs anyway:

Ridiculously ignored, despite needing buffs:

Ike:

My guess is that one or two of the ignored will get buffed. It's hard to predict balance patches, so that's all I have.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Actually Zelda did get buffs(not last patch) but yea needs more.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Don't ever compare any Smash game to Third Strike

They're nowhere near as good.

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

kjdshgjhfdbfjlzbddf

My desire to debate...UGH....TOOOOO....STRONG!!!!

Must...contain...desire.....to..lay...down.....the....PWNAGE!!!!!

 

[Smog Frog]

this thread is for intellectual discourse

debate your goddamn heart out