Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[valakmtnsmash4]

I have brought some rather exciting news to some of you.
Sakurai was taking notes and the Japanese tournament that nairo was at and when they showed corrin and bayo gameplay. After he witnessed Abadango 0-death nairo and ZSS utterly demolish a cloud with uair up b, I think it's safe to say that
RIP ZSS and MK you won't be missed.

 

[Spinosaurus]

You're all gonna start looking ridiculous when these nerfs don't end up happening at all.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

You're all gonna start looking ridiculous when these nerfs don't end up happening at all.

Yeah I'm just speculating XD

 

[Dusk Pit]

I have brought some rather exciting news to some of you.
Sakurai was taking notes and the Japanese tournament that nairo was at and when they showed corrin and bayo gameplay. After he witnessed Abadango 0-death nairo and ZSS utterly demolish a cloud with uair up b, I think it's safe to say that
RIP ZSS and MK you won't be missed.

I really hope this is true, also true shoryuken... I'm looking at you.

 

[Tinkerer]

I have brought some rather exciting news to some of you.
Sakurai was taking notes and the Japanese tournament that nairo was at and when they showed corrin and bayo gameplay. After he witnessed Abadango 0-death nairo and ZSS utterly demolish a cloud with uair up b, I think it's safe to say that
RIP ZSS and MK you won't be missed.

They were only joking about that. I really doubt that between now and the patch, three days, Sakurai will suddenly hammer down on ZSS and MK because of that tournament.

 

[valakmtnsmash4]

They were only joking about that. I really doubt that between now and the patch, three days, Sakurai will suddenly hammer down on ZSS and MK because of that tournament.

but Sakurai said he was "sick" after GF's. He probably rushed home to nerf them

 

[Wintermelon43]

but Sakurai said he was "sick" after GF's. He probably rushed home to nerf them

Nah, I think he got sick FROM the Meta Knight and ZSS stuff, and rushed home to start nerfing them and to get a bucket for throwing up. And also to get the money he needs to pay his balacing crew overtime for nerfing them immediatatly.

 

[ARISTOS]

Don't think I saw this posted.

2GGT: The False Awakens top 8

1st NME| Tyrant

2nd LoF | False

3rd #THE | Larry Lurr

4th SU | Trela

5thZG | ImHip

5th Zenyou

7th NS | Falln

7th KOSSismoss


2016 truly the Year of the Bat

 

[Smog Frog]

nerf would force his mains to use his other moves. i think dimensional cape is a great move that needs more labbing(tech chase setups mainly, but also airdodge reads)

 

[Luco]

Luco Actually, pulling out the cornerstone of a wall will dis-assemble it due to the part of it holding it together being gone, but I know what you're saying. But you know, it's been quite a while since I've last fought a pretty professional Ryu player legitimately, and yet I'm still searching for that person (and I'm sure as hell Emblem Lord isn't that one). Ryu's just one of two characters I just want to find ways to beat, I want to become so good against Ryu so I'd know what would happen if I go against one as Link.

I need to understand that what makes THEM tick, and I know for a fact I can do it with Link of all characters.

@Latias I sometimes wondered that myself. Let me pull out my Falco and raise you three Links.

Well then, that comes down to pulling out the right brick.

Also seeing MK at first twice today is like waking up from a nightmare only to realise YOU'RE STILL IN IT!

 

[warionumbah2]

nerf would force his mains to use his other moves. i think dimensional cape is a great move that needs more labbing(tech chase setups mainly, but also airdodge reads)

He'll be in the same group of characters that get invalidated by Sheik.

 

[Flux0r]

I can potentially see Meta Knight becoming a much bigger threat in the future. The fear and pain that dash-attack brings to the table is real.

Can potentially surpass the likes of Mario and Ness, if he hasn't already. Sheik will unfortunately be a problem.

 

[Dusk Pit]

He'll be in the same group of characters that get invalidated by Sheik.

Well, who wouldn't?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm fine with MK death combos.

Like...REALLY fine with it. I prefer this MK over the ultra dominant in neutral MK that gets everything for free.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Rolls are too fast. I'd love them to be nerfed in Duration but it's not gonna happen.
Why do people still think shields are broken in this game? Shielding isn't that good. Powershielding is good. But most moves are safe on normal shield if spaced.

Because:
1- Powershielding isn't as much of a legendary thing to throw out consistantly, and powershield is insane.
2- How much time Shield takes to recover is also disgusting, you could have " stabbed " your opponent with 2 Strong Aerials on his shield, and 5 Seconds later, all this effort will go to waste.

 

[Wintropy]

Invalidating bottom tier characters doesn't make Ryu special, it makes him a high tier.

Great quote. May I save this for posterity?

Alright, so I'm gonna categorize every character based on the balance patch. Also make a prediction.

Okay, I think you're pretty spot-on overall and thanks for compiling this resource -

Ike:

- and this made me chuckle (though I'd put MK down as a character that got good buffs, but that's neither here nor there) -

Got nothing, is okay with nothing:

But this needs to be addressed. While I agree that the Pits would in theory be fine even if they were never buffed, let's not forget that Dark Pit got a very impressive buff to his side-b in the most recent patch. It single-handedly inverted public perception of the Pits placements in relation to each-other (in that Dark Pit is now considered the stronger of the two by most accounts). You should know because references to its existence and competitive efficacy comprises a good 70% of everything I say in this thread.

Everything else is fine from what I can see, I just wanted to clear up that tiny discrepancy. :3

I can potentially see Meta Knight becoming a much bigger threat in the future. The fear and pain that dash-attack brings to the table is real.

Can potentially surpass the likes of Mario and Ness, if he hasn't already. Sheik will unfortunately be a problem.

Oh, I'd say he passed them out donkey's years ago. He potentially passed out everybody except for the Top 5, depending on your opinion of who's in Top 5 and how strong MK is.

Well, who wouldn't?

I know this is a rhetorical statement, but I can name a few characters off the top of my head that aren't invalidated by Sheik.

Hint: The Pits are two (one?) of them and there are other non-top-tiers to go. Having a losing matchup with Sheik doesn't equate to invalidation.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Great quote. May I save this for posterity?



Okay, I think you're pretty spot-on overall and thanks for compiling this resource -



- and this made me chuckle (though I'd put MK down as a character that got good buffs, but that's neither here nor there) -



But this needs to be addressed. While I agree that the Pits would in theory be fine even if they were never buffed, let's not forget that Dark Pit got a very impressive buff to his side-b in the most recent patch. It single-handedly inverted public perception of the Pits placements in relation to each-other (in that Dark Pit is now considered the stronger of the two by most accounts). You should know because references to its existence and competitive efficacy comprises a good 70% of everything I say in this thread.

Everything else is fine from what I can see, I just wanted to clear up that tiny discrepancy. :3



Oh, I'd say he passed them out donkey's years ago. He potentially passed out everybody except for the Top 5, depending on your opinion of who's in Top 5 and how strong MK is.



I know this is a rhetorical statement, but I can name a few characters off the top of my head that aren't invalidated by Sheik.

Hint: The Pits are two (one?) of them and there are other non-top-tiers to go. Having a losing matchup with Sheik doesn't equate to invalidation.

I knew i'd forget something

 

[williamsga555]

Ryu is fine. The notion that he invalidates anyone is simply not true, as far as I can tell. Who lists him as their worst matchup?

Dude's good, fills a good role, and doesn't have a mindless gameplan. What's the issue?

 

[HoSmash4]

He'll be in the same group of characters that get invalidated by Sheik.

And with sheik/zss nerfs, everyone loses to MK again.

Guess Brawl isnt truely dead yet.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just gonna throw this out there. This is a list of characters that have proven themselves to be legit regional threats.

Sheik, ZSS, Rosaluma, Ness, Yoshi, Ike, Pikachu, Ness, Ryu, Cloud, Greninja, Mario, CF, Diddy, Olimar, Villager, Sonic, Peach, Pac-Man, R.O.B, Fox

Chars with the juice, but not the representation

Toon Link, Pit, Dark Pit, Lucas, Wario, Luigi (he's really here due to nerfs but hes still damn solid) Bowser Jr (strong and dynamic neutral who really has only been fully tapped by Tweek)

Arguable

Mewtwo, DK, Bowser

DK and Bowser have REAL grab confirms and great footsies. I feel they have the potential to be legit tourney threats. Mewtwo is a footsies/neutral beast. I feel he has untapped potential as well.

If you remove the arguable list, we have almost 30 chars that can get things done at a high level of play.

That's really ****ing good.

Stop crying guys

 

[Big-Cat]

I say just give Bowser and DK time. This is the first game in the series where their archetype is actually good. I can tell people still think this is blasphemy.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

Despite being a hella bad MU for Kirby, I'm okay with MK how he's now. He actually has a learning curve this time around. I still would be okay if his Up-B had a slight decrease in power tbh
Speaking of that Bayo vs. Corrin vs. Pit vs. Marth video. Is it just me or Marth actually has more range now? His Dancing Blade and F-Air seem to be way larger than I remember. But it could be a placebo!
And heavyweights only need slight buffs in frame data to be perfectly balanced imo. They have most of the stuff they need, except for Ganon who needs a total revamp in speed...

 

[Big-Cat]

I highly doubt, considering his tipper s a defining trait, that he got bigger hitboxes. The strength buff is real though.

 

[Blobface]

If Marth's confirmed changes are any indication, they're going to go ham with this next (final?) patch, at least with buffs. Almost makes me wonder if Sakurai chose Marth for that video on purpose.

Fun times ahead.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Just gonna throw this out there. This is a list of characters that have proven themselves to be legit regional threats.

Sheik, ZSS, Rosaluma, Ness, Yoshi, Ike, Pikachu, Ness, Ryu, Cloud, Greninja, Mario, CF, Diddy, Olimar, Villager, Sonic, Peach, Pac-Man, R.O.B, Fox

Chars with the juice, but not the representation

Toon Link, Pit, Dark Pit, Lucas, Wario, Luigi (he's really here due to nerfs but hes still damn solid) Bowser Jr (strong and dynamic neutral who really has only been fully tapped by Tweek)

Arguable

Mewtwo, DK, Bowser

DK and Bowser have REAL grab confirms and great footsies. I feel they have the potential to be legit tourney threats. Mewtwo is a footsies/neutral beast. I feel he has untapped potential as well.

If you remove the arguable list, we have almost 30 chars that can get things done at a high level of play.

That's really ****ing good.

Stop crying guys

I actually completely agree with everything you just said...

There was a diversity thing on reddit, and this guy took the top 8's from both the Melee and Sm4sh tourneys last year (big ones) he came to the conclusion the Melee is more balanced and diverse then Sm4sh. Some of it makes sense, but then you have to realize that ZeRo lost 1 tourney last year, and that probably skewed the results a lot. The thing that really bothered me was that the guy thought sm4sh would become LESS diverse as time goes on. Sure, more people are going to pick up top tiers, but not everyone can play Shiek. Some are going to play Fox, Diddy, Rosa and ZSS. Thoughts?

 

[L9999]

If Marth's confirmed changes are any indication, they're going to go ham with this next (final?) patch, at least with buffs. Almost makes me wonder if Sakurai chose Marth for that video on purpose.

Fun times ahead.

What changed about Marth?

 

[Rashyboy05]

What changed about Marth?

Eh. The only "confirmed" changes are just minor things so far like 2% damage buffs to Tipper Fair and UAir. Tipper UAir does look like its easier to hit but I'm pretty sure its placebo.

 

[Flux0r]

I actually completely agree with everything you just said...

There was a diversity thing on reddit, and this guy took the top 8's from both the Melee and Sm4sh tourneys last year (big ones) he came to the conclusion the Melee is more balanced and diverse then Sm4sh. Some of it makes sense, but then you have to realize that ZeRo lost 1 tourney last year, and that probably skewed the results a lot. The thing that really bothered me was that the guy thought sm4sh would become LESS diverse as time goes on. Sure, more people are going to pick up top tiers, but not everyone can play Shiek. Some are going to play Fox, Diddy, Rosa and ZSS. Thoughts?

It will become less diverse in the future, it's almost inevitable. That's not necessarily bad though.

I think once the patches stop, we can finally focus on developing our characters more without having to worry about if our main is going to get nerfed the next morning. Prehaps an official Tier List and even a Matchup Table will arrive as well.

 

[O Rai]

if we are going off of something like an uair- up b/ kill move off the top then nerf and basically anyone else (undiscovered or known) who can do this tactic.
If we wanna say nerf kill throw strong chars instead, then say bye to the only game when is a top tier and basically limit play styles (, etc) so that they no longer have the threat of the kill throw. Then again these types of kill options didn't become super apparent until the global hitstun buff. Also a in top 8?, nice to see. Also for the archetype, i feel as if they are missing something key like amazing shield breaking pressure or earlier kill potential, something that makes it feel like getting supercombo'd would actually be a worthwhile tradeoff. (sure theres the ding-dong combo but outside of that his options aren't the best and the early nerf to his shield break side b kinda limited his pressure in a way).
Who can honestly tell you whats gonna happen until the dlc/patch hits this week, since in all honesty Bayo and Corrin by their gameplay style alone will likely have an interesting effect on how the tier lists (kinda like how latest newcomer has been doing) or match ups in the meta game will function. Also, you may have to reanalyze your main from a new perspective since seeing something like a (supposed lower tier) or place higher could be a number of things (region and their play style, the person playing, the strats (offensive or more defensive, and the discovered set ups, etc))

In all honesty if got bigger blades then hell yes because in melee being able to outspace a was one of key advantages of the MU for marth.

Also for the love of heck can we buff strength since he honestly has horrifying experiences in the world of smash. make him hit like a truck or something since he's not much stronger than his faster variant .

 

[Luco]

I wouldn't be surprised if things became less diverse over time, unfortunately. A dominating character tends to do that unless real counterplay is figured out against them. Sheik certainly isn't any monster, but you've seen yourself how players like ANTi are making a switch or at least pocketing her.

That being said, I agree that we have outliers that we need to think about when it comes to our data, like ZeRo.

I think we're doing pretty well for where we are in our meta right now though. And patches are always a thing with this game.

EDIT: mostly 'd

 

[Planty]

If Marth's confirmed changes are any indication, they're going to go ham with this next (final?) patch, at least with buffs. Almost makes me wonder if Sakurai chose Marth for that video on purpose.

Fun times ahead.

nah. They chose chose Pit and Marth so that Baonetta and Corrin can have somebody that sorta makes sense next to them. Bayonetta hunts angels, so Pit was put. Marth was there because both him and Corrin are from Fire Emblem.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Here, i'm going to share an opinion on a character:

I think is all over again in terms of thoughts, except worse character.
Whenever i enter a discussion about both of these characters, it usually ends up in this kind of situation:
Not me: " Look! Lucas/Yoshi has this ( emphasis on this being ONE thing ) tool! He's so good! Top 10/High tier!! "
Me: " No, it's just one tool that Lucas/Yoshi mains may already know, while you're fantasming about that, the character still has among the most abmyssal results for a character that you'd consider in the better half of the cast. I'm not saying results should completely dictate your thoughts on a character, but since in 1 Year, many characters already showed their abilities of being a threat of any kind, solo main ability or counterpick character, of course i'm going to discredit X Character if he hasn't been able to do that, or not as much as you'd want him to, depending of your thoughts on the character
Not me: " B-but i don't care anyway, it's just that nobody good plays him! you're wrong anyway! "

Okay, i've made the discussion a bit cliché, but this has happened to me a bunch of time already.
So yeah, to me, Lucas is just among the Bottom of Mid Tier, or the better low tiers, and not something like Mid High tier or High tier or whatever ,come at me if you disagree.

 

[Nabbitnator]

It would be nice if we focused on improving the lower tier characters rather then nerfing the top and some random characters. This is probably how characters like jiggl ect get over looked from time to time.

 

[JesterJaded]

Here, i'm going to share an opinion on a character:

I think is all over again in terms of thoughts, except worse character.
Whenever i enter a discussion about both of these characters, it usually ends up in this kind of situation:
Not me: " Look! Lucas/Yoshi has this ( emphasis on this being ONE thing ) tool! He's so good! Top 10/High tier!! "
Me: " No, it's just one tool that Lucas/Yoshi mains may already know, while you're fantasming about that, the character still has among the most abmyssal results for a character that you'd consider in the better half of the cast. I'm not saying results should completely dictate your thoughts on a character, but since in 1 Year, many characters already showed their abilities of being a threat of any kind, solo main ability or counterpick character, of course i'm going to discredit X Character if he hasn't been able to do that, or not as much as you'd want him to, depending of your thoughts on the character
Not me: " B-but i don't care anyway, it's just that nobody good plays him! you're wrong anyway! "

Okay, i've made the discussion a bit cliché, but this has happened to me a bunch of time already.
So yeah, to me, Lucas is just among the Bottom of Mid Tier, or the better low tiers, and not something like Mid High tier or High tier or whatever ,come at me if you disagree.

In what universe does Lucas only have one good tool?

 

[HeavyLobster]

Here, i'm going to share an opinion on a character:

I think is all over again in terms of thoughts, except worse character.
Whenever i enter a discussion about both of these characters, it usually ends up in this kind of situation:
Not me: " Look! Lucas/Yoshi has this ( emphasis on this being ONE thing ) tool! He's so good! Top 10/High tier!! "
Me: " No, it's just one tool that Lucas/Yoshi mains may already know, while you're fantasming about that, the character still has among the most abmyssal results for a character that you'd consider in the better half of the cast. I'm not saying results should completely dictate your thoughts on a character, but since in 1 Year, many characters already showed their abilities of being a threat of any kind, solo main ability or counterpick character, of course i'm going to discredit X Character if he hasn't been able to do that, or not as much as you'd want him to, depending of your thoughts on the character
Not me: " B-but i don't care anyway, it's just that nobody good plays him! you're wrong anyway! "

Okay, i've made the discussion a bit cliché, but this has happened to me a bunch of time already.
So yeah, to me, Lucas is just among the Bottom of Mid Tier, or the better low tiers, and not something like Mid High tier or High tier or whatever ,come at me if you disagree.

In Lucas's case he's had 6-7 months instead of a year, and only recently got a significant grab buff. It's not comparable to Yoshi at all. I don't think he's outstanding or anything, but he is actually good. Results aren't necessarily something you can rely on in his particular case, especially when he has kind of been forgotten. He's a middle of the road character who has only recently been made middle of the road, and has been overshadowed by Ryu and even Roy when he was flavor of the month. Lucas has good recovery, edgeguarding, and zoning, and strong throws that are now less risky to go for thanks to his grab being better. I would consider him about as good as Yoshi overall actually, maybe a bit better.

 

[FullMoon]

On another note aMSa is coming back to Sm4sh

https://twitter.com/amsaredyoshi/status/693431388150714369

Edit because yellow text on a white background lol

 

[Nobie]

Just saying I may or may not have called the particular nature of the Marth buffs (increases to damage not necessarily to combo potential).

I actually completely agree with everything you just said...

There was a diversity thing on reddit, and this guy took the top 8's from both the Melee and Sm4sh tourneys last year (big ones) he came to the conclusion the Melee is more balanced and diverse then Sm4sh. Some of it makes sense, but then you have to realize that ZeRo lost 1 tourney last year, and that probably skewed the results a lot. The thing that really bothered me was that the guy thought sm4sh would become LESS diverse as time goes on. Sure, more people are going to pick up top tiers, but not everyone can play Shiek. Some are going to play Fox, Diddy, Rosa and ZSS. Thoughts?

There's actually a flaw with that guy's argument that I don't think he realizes.

He argues that the top 8 in Melee is more diverse, which counts more compared to a more diverse Top 32.

So imagine you have a game where the top 32 looks like this:

8 Foxes
4 Sheiks
4 Falcos
4 Marths
4 Jigglypuffs
4 Ice Climbers
4 Peaches

Now imagine a top 32 like this:

8 Sheiks
2 ZSSs
2 Foxes
1 Rosalina
etc. etc.
Basically a lot of characters with only 1 or 2 reps

In both situations, because the top 32 for the first example has more repeats, there's a greater chance of those characters retaining their place into the top 8. You eliminate 75% of them and you still have a chance for that character to go through.

However, in the second example where the top 32 is more diverse, there is a greater chance for them not to reach the top 8 by virtue of sheer numbers. If two of them enter into the top 32, and one of them is eliminated, that's already half of their chances of reaching the top 8 vanishing. If there's only 1 rep it's even harder.

tl;dr: When your Top 32 is in a way less diverse, it is possible for the top 8 to look more diverse at first glance.

 

[Wintropy]

Here, i'm going to share an opinion on a character:

I think is all over again in terms of thoughts, except worse character.
Whenever i enter a discussion about both of these characters, it usually ends up in this kind of situation:
Not me: " Look! Lucas/Yoshi has this ( emphasis on this being ONE thing ) tool! He's so good! Top 10/High tier!! "
Me: " No, it's just one tool that Lucas/Yoshi mains may already know, while you're fantasming about that, the character still has among the most abmyssal results for a character that you'd consider in the better half of the cast. I'm not saying results should completely dictate your thoughts on a character, but since in 1 Year, many characters already showed their abilities of being a threat of any kind, solo main ability or counterpick character, of course i'm going to discredit X Character if he hasn't been able to do that, or not as much as you'd want him to, depending of your thoughts on the character
Not me: " B-but i don't care anyway, it's just that nobody good plays him! you're wrong anyway! "

Okay, i've made the discussion a bit cliché, but this has happened to me a bunch of time already.
So yeah, to me, Lucas is just among the Bottom of Mid Tier, or the better low tiers, and not something like Mid High tier or High tier or whatever ,come at me if you disagree.

I'm glad you posted this, because I honestly have no idea what to think of either of these two, and it seems very few others do either. Even mains of these characters have notably conflicting opinions on them, and it's probably because their results don't match up to how good their individual moves seem to be.

Or at least that's how I feel about Yoshi. From observation, it's easy to tell he's got solid tools and a coherent gameplan (coincidentally watching an older set of Trela's Ryu vs The Wall's Yoshi right now, and true to his name, Wall does a great job at blocking Trela's approach options), but he seldom if ever makes waves at big events. It doesn't even seem to be due to a shortage of players either, he's got a few good names doing stuff, it just doesn't seem to be enough.

This is just impartial perception on my part, but from an outsider's perspective, I struggle to understand what the consensus on Yoshi is or why he doesn't get better results for an almost-definitely viable, ostensibly high-tier character. Contrasting viewpoints and inconsistent results really have me confused on this character's place in the meta.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'm glad you posted this, because I honestly have no idea what to think of either of these two, and it seems very few others do either. Even mains of these characters have notably conflicting opinions on them, and it's probably because their results don't match up to how good their individual moves seem to be.

Or at least that's how I feel about Yoshi. From observation, it's easy to tell he's got solid tools and a coherent gameplan (coincidentally watching an older set of Trela's Ryu vs The Wall's Yoshi right now, and true to his name, Wall does a great job at blocking Trela's approach options), but he seldom if ever makes waves at big events. It doesn't even seem to be due to a shortage of players either, he's got a few good names doing stuff, it just doesn't seem to be enough.

This is just impartial perception on my part, but from an outsider's perspective, I struggle to understand what the consensus on Yoshi is or why he doesn't get better results for an almost-definitely viable, ostensibly high-tier character. Contrasting viewpoints and inconsistent results really have me confused on this character's place in the meta.

He gets ****ed vs the chars that matter.

Simple stuff really

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Main character + top tier secondary = meta being developed and still being competitive. I think this simple formula is really good for players that want to develop the meta while being competitive as well.