Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Megamang]

Perhaps give ganon a U throw uair 5050 such that if they dodge uair they get fair or baired?


Cant ganon just SDI the utilts to the ledge, or to any available platform?

 

[TurboLink]

Perhaps give ganon a U throw uair 5050 such that if they dodge uair they get fair or baired?


Cant ganon just SDI the utilts to the ledge, or to any available platform?

Couldn't they avoid all of that by simply jumping? I don't remember Ganondorf's jumps being very high and his jumpsquat is also bad.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I too get a similar feeling, it can really get me down about this game. I'm like, "Is this my only option?" or "Can I really do nothing about that?" Maybe I'm spoiled because I've been playing PM Lucario recently.

You're talking About having options for every situation (which top tiers usually have). I'm talking about characters that actually have freedom to do stuff. Like melee fox as a extreme example.

 

[Megamang]

Couldn't they avoid all of that by simply jumping? I don't remember Ganondorf's jumps being very high and his jumpsquat is also bad.

You can airdodge from hitstun before you cn jump. Otherwise shiek would have no 50/50.

 

[HeavyLobster]

You can airdodge from hitstun before you cn jump. Otherwise shiek would have no 50/50.

Ganondorf's 50/50 kill confirms should mostly be off Flame Choke anyway. Wizkick unfortunately can't punish a select few techrolls away for some reason. If it came out slightly faster and could kill around 120% it would boost Ganondorf's ability to confirm kills noticeably. Off grabs he probably wants reliable damage racking more than kill confirms, though a kill throw or more powerful Dark Dive would also be appreciated to end stocks in a pinch.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Puff doesn't really work well in this engine at all. She could've in Brawl if she had adequate kill options, but rage + no ledge planking + airdodge landing lag hurt her a lot here. She needs a jank Rest confirm to work, much like Zelda probably needs a jank LK confirm to work. Don't see many other options for making their punish games strong enough to compensate for their frailty. Lucina needs some sort of clear advantage over Marth to give her a niche(think ElectroShock Arm buff).

Radical Larry Ganondorf beats Puff 60-40. When you're the only character that loses decisively to Ganondorf that is not a good sign for your viability.

Or shield break options. I still think that Ganondorf and Jigglypuff would be better if the only changes they made were to buff their shield pressure. In my opinion, I think both of them should specialize in this and this would help offset their glaring weaknesses. In the case of Ganondorf, I feel like there's no reason why attacks like his jab, fair, dair, or aerial wizard kick do less shield damage than Ryu's collarbone breaker. Jiggs would just make sense because her whole concept revolves around her fragility; why not expand upon this and have her exploit the fragility of shields?

 

[AnEventHorizon]

The move is bugged, just like in Brawl. You can actually buffer a special while landing out of a full hop. It's nowhere near his biggest problem, but it is annoying and ought to be fixed, especially after they fixed Dsmash pulling shielding foes towards you.

It's not bugged, it just has a FAF (45) that occurs before it's autocancel (55). Like Roy's Fair, which autocancels after frame 33 (no short hop AC) but has a FAF of (30) so you can double jump out of SH fair. Or like all of Shulk's aerials.

If it wasn't intentional, I think it would have been changed by now.

 

[Radical Larry]

HeavyLobster Uh... all have somewhat bad MUs against Ganondorf, and I'm iffy about and against Ganondorf.

Some of these MUs might have to rely on Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot, and Charizard is probably the ONLY character who can easily be punished by Ganondorf's reversed Warlock Punch effectively (that Warlock Punch buff, am I right?) if he mistimes a Side B.

But anyways, I'd like to see Ganondorf get more damage or speed buffs. He's still a middle tier character, but I think with the right amount of buffs, he'd be a high tier.

 

[williamsga555]

I've said it before, but I think Dedede wins the Ganon matchup. By how much I'm not certain, but I haven't been convinced that Ganon has reliable means of getting through our spacing and edgeguarding.

I used to think it was more even, but recently I've started thinking it's in D3's favor. Ganon is basically the only character who can not force D3 to approach at any point, and having a super armored recovery mitigates one of Ganon's greatest strengths (edgeguarding).

What exactly does Ganon have over Dedede? What makes the matchup bad for him? I'm not seeing it, and this is coming from a Ganon optimist and Dedede pessimist.

 

[Peppermint1201]

How on Earth do are any of those characters beaten by Ganondorf? Dr Mario? Dedede? Kirby!?

Care to explain yourself?


EDIT: Changed the wording, i made a typo that stated the opposite of my thouhgts. lol

 

[adom4]

I've said it before, but I think Dedede wins the Ganon matchup. By how much I'm not certain, but I haven't been convinced that Ganon has reliable means of getting through our spacing and edgeguarding.

I used to think it was more even, but recently I've started thinking it's in D3's favor. Ganon is basically the only character who can not force D3 to approach at any point, and having a super armored recovery mitigates one of Ganon's greatest strengths (edgeguarding).

What exactly does Ganon have over Dedede? What makes the matchup bad for him? I'm not seeing it, and this is coming from a Ganon optimist and Dedede pessimist.

I do think DDD wins slightly but Ganon combos him just as hard, his kill options are generally better & he can still edgeguard him rather decently because of his mobility.
Also Ganondorf doesn't give a **** about gordo ledgetraps because of U-air & the fact that gordos don't hit him on the ledge (unless they are very very precise).
It might be even but i think DDD's edgeguards & grab swing it to his favor (more due to his grab).

How on Earth do any of those characters beat Ganondorf? Dr Mario? Dedede? Kirby!?

Care to explain yourself?

for Doc @A2ZOMG can explain better than i can.
Against Kirby i think we actually win slightly. But we have to play extremely lame.
If we play too aggressively vs Kirby we're just asking to get comboed, but if we lame it out he has a hard time approaching because of stuff like our D-tilt, his range is a huge issue vs Ganondorf, it's a super boring MU because if we don't play lame we're asking to lose.

 

[Wintropy]

How on Earth do any of those characters beat Ganondorf? Dr Mario? Dedede? Kirby!?

Care to explain yourself?

Do you mean "how are any of these characters beaten by Ganondorf?"

I have my own opinions, but I'll reserve judgement for the time being. I'm interested in what Larry has to say.

 

[Megamang]

Plus, a big hitbox is never nice against ganon. Can rising uair hit standing dedede? If so thats an option he has that he rarely has.

 

[Djent]

PAX top 8 is about to start streaming.

 

[arbustopachon]

It's generally agreed in the zard threads that the dorf matchup is even.

Zard is probably the character that dorf can punish the hardest, we get mauled by his side b. Not to mention if we do anything unsafe we will die.
The thing is we win hard offstage, zard's edgeguard is pretty effective at gimping ganon.
Also flamethrower is pretty effective in this matchup.

The matchup is volatile as hell an extremely fun. Probs my favorite in the game.

(I wouldn't recommend punishing a side b with a reverse warlock tho, even if you react fast enough to armor it if you time it wrong zards prone hitbox will low profile the punch.)

 

[Peppermint1201]

Do you mean "how are any of these characters beaten by Ganondorf?"

I have my own opinions, but I'll reserve judgement for the time being. I'm interested in what Larry has to say.

Fixed, thanks for pointing that out.

 

[adom4]

It's generally agreed in the zard threads that the dorf matchup is even.

Zard is probably the character that dorf can punish the hardest, we get mauled by his side b. Not to mention if we do anything unsafe we will die.
The thing is we win hard offstage, zard's edgeguard is pretty effective at gimping ganon.
Also flamethrower is pretty effective in this matchup.

The matchup is volatile as hell an extremely fun. Probs my favorite in the game.

(I wouldn't recommend punishing a side b with a reverse warlock tho, even if you react fast enough to armor it if you time it wrong zards prone hitbox will low profile the punch.)

Ganon vs Zard is fun as hell, tho i need to add that Ganon can edgeguard Zard pretty decently too with a well timed tipman.
Also Olimar is probably the character that Dorf punishes the hardest.

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay, first off I mean that the characters I've listed are Ganondorf's good MUs (the characters are bad or even to him). And with the D3 explanation, I've always been convinced that D3 has always lost to Ganondorf.

Dedede has the range, some great combo ability, survivability and a projectile, but those are actually some of his biggest downfalls alongside a fast falling speed, susceptibility to being combo'd, heavy hitbox and a lot of his attacks easily being beaten by Ganondorf's Warlock Punch.

D3 is the only character that I know of that can be successfully U-Smash > U-Smash U-Air'd by Ganondorf and one of the few characters who can actually be punished by his U-Tilt and Warlock Punch attacks. Ganondorf just also loves getting the Flame Choke on D3, because that automatically means that Ganondorf's D-Tilt and F-Tilt are going to hit, and D3 is very bad going against Ganondorf's F-Tilt.

While it's true that Ganondorf can't force D3 to rush in, Ganondorf basically beats D3's projectile with ANY of his attacks and Ganondorf actually has the better aerial game! His aerial mobility actually trumps D3's aerial mobility, making him a force to be reckoned with in the air. And it doesn't help that if you know the exact spot D3 is going to be during his recovery, Ganondorf can punish accordingly with many attacks just by following the trajectory.

I'd like to be convinced why D3 is better in the MU.

It's generally agreed in the zard threads that the dorf matchup is even.

Zard is probably the character that dorf can punish the hardest, we get mauled by his side b. Not to mention if we do anything unsafe we will die.
The thing is we win hard offstage, zard's edgeguard is pretty effective at gimping ganon.
Also flamethrower is pretty effective in this matchup.

The matchup is volatile as hell an extremely fun. Probs my favorite in the game.

Yeah, and if you make one mistake with Flare Blitz against the Super Armor WP, you're done. A reverse Warlock Punch is an instant KO punish on Zard. But I admit, the MU is very fun to go with.

Ganon vs Zard is fun as hell, tho i need to add that Ganon can edgeguard Zard pretty decently too with a well timed tipman.
Also Olimar is probably the character that Dorf punishes the hardest.

Care to elaborate the Olimar part?

 

[Djent]

Game 4 of ESAM vs. Vinnie actually showed how the increased shield stun on Pika's fair actually does matter in some situations. In one scenario, fair off the ledge was too safe for Vinnie to comfortably contest.
Sheik still wins the MU and ESAM is still a buster tho.

 

[Kofu]

Also Olimar is probably the character that Dorf punishes the hardest.

I believe this was the case in Brawl as well, Olimar was the only character you could hit with DSmash out of Flame Choke IIRC.

The trick is actually getting in.

 

[Radical Larry]

I believe this was the case in Brawl as well, Olimar was the only character you could hit with DSmash out of Flame Choke IIRC.

The trick is actually getting in.

Any additions for this game? How many characters can actually get hit with D-Smash out of it?

 

[adom4]

I believe this was the case in Brawl as well, Olimar was the only character you could hit with DSmash out of Flame Choke IIRC.

The trick is actually getting in.

you couldn't get in on him in Brawl lol, i think it was like a 100-0 MU.
The MU got better since the D-smash buff, Olimar can't afford to miss any techs on choke, and even if he techs his tech roll is ass.
Also Olimar can barely land against Dorf because of his fall speed & airspeed.
It's hard getting in on him but the reward is so worth it.

Any additions for this game? How many characters can actually get hit with D-Smash out of it?

No, but we can hit certain characters out of an airchoke with D-smash if they get up in place or roll away (or if they stay put if they're fat enough).

 

[Blobface]

Ganon should get better combos out of throws, but I wouldn't give him a kill confirm unless you massively buffed the rest of his moveset to compensate. D-throw F-air is already true if the opponent is DIing in, and it kills most characters at 60 near the edge;

without rage.

U-air and N-air aren't much weaker either. Ganon's got his share of problems but he still can kill you faster and harder than any other character.

As Heavy said, what Ganon needs is for all his tools to be threatening. He has a few tools that just aren't scary right now. In order of how problematic they are:

Spoiler

1. Wizkick. I don't even have to say anything else. This thing should hit with the force of a planetary collision.

2. Flame Choke. Gives Ganon a very valuable tool against shield. You're pretty safe in shield if it's not threatening. Very character specific though. Some characters get destroyed no matter what and some characters can literally get away free with an away tech. If not made untechable, removing 3 frames of endlag off of Grounded Choke and making Air Choke end fast enough to jump out of the way of getup attacks would make Flame Choke threatening to all characters in all situations.

3. Regular Grab. Pretty limited followups and his throws don't kill very well. Just changing the angle of D-throw without allowing a killing grab confirm would be good. Maybe increase the damage and knockback of his other throws.

4. D-Tilt. Very important spacing tool. It's strong, but it's just not strong enough. Just power it up.

5. Dash Attack. Threatens basically everything but shielding. Still plenty powerful, but not quite as strong as it should be, especially since it's pretty unsafe. Just power it up.

6. Dark Dive. The buffs were nice but it's still pretty weak. Not very important for Ganon's moveset but there's still no reason for it to be like this.

There's also his jab which is basically an empty move slot. Not so much non-threatening as it is crap in general. Just making it frame 6 and making it faster than a spotdodge would be good.

Honestly even just a Wizkick buff would put Ganon is a decent spot. As is he can't really exert much pressure when people can backroll for free and get rid of any control he might've had.

But you know what buff I really want for Ganon? I want Warlock Punch Knockback to carry between stocks, so that once you respawn you resume traveling at the velocity you were moving when you hit the blast zone. Instant top tier.

 

[Vipermoon]

I thought Marth, Lucina, and Roy had the only back airs that turn them around. I just noticed Villager has one too. Just a cool fact. Do you guys think this matters? In my opinion, Marth's Bair is 2x more useful because of this.

 

[Das Koopa]

Nakat's Lucas wasn't very fresh. Him trying to out USmash a Mario was terrible.

 

[Smog Frog]

i dont think he was trying to usmash. i think he was trying to go for utilt, which combos and kills at those %.

 

[Teshie U]

Ganon Dsmash is so overpowered in this game that side B into Dsmash kills Olimar around 60%.

 

[Radical Larry]

Blobface Wizkick does hit with the force of a planetary collision...in the air. He's like a planet that's coming to strike.
What you should have said instead Wizkick should hit with the force of a wrecking ball on the ground.

But besides that point, I should say that D-Throw > Wizkick is still a thing and is good if you position the opponent right, because if you ledge cancel it, you can lead into D-Air, U-Air or N-Air with it! I'm going to test if you can 0 to Death an opponent with D-Throw > Wizkick > D-Air, and who you can do it to.

 

[Blobface]

Speaking of Ganon's D-smash, it pushing people away is nice, but I do miss when Ganon's D-smash had him quite literally kick your ***.

 

[williamsga555]

I don't buy for an instant that Warlock Punch is a viable method to beat out D3. Yes, it has super armor, but what move are you powering through where it'll still have time to hit us? Most of our kit isn't that slow.

Ditto for up tilt. At what point are we getting hit by that move where others wouldn't?

As for aerial mobility, it's a bit tricky to talk about that. Ganon has superior air speed and an overall better slew of aerials, but Dedede's access to multijumps really hinders Ganon's ability to press that advantage.

"But he has to land eventually, right?"

True, but punishing his inevitable landing is trickier than you'd expect. A well spaced bair (which autocancels when properly used) is very difficult to challenge. This is a general issue Dedede has, but I don't feel Ganon capitalizes on it all that well without a good read or poor spacing on D3's part.

Dedede has the range, some great combo ability, survivability and a projectile, but those are actually some of his biggest downfalls

What does this even mean?

D3 is the only character that I know of that can be successfully U-Smash > U-Smash U-Air'd by Ganondorf

Was this tested with Dedede just opting to jump away? Genuinely curious if this is a legit string against him or not.

Ganondorf just also loves getting the Flame Choke on D3, because that automatically means that Ganondorf's D-Tilt and F-Tilt are going to hit, and D3 is very bad going against Ganondorf's F-Tilt.

I grant both of these points, but only to an extent. D3 does not want to get hit by f-tilt, that's true. Flame Choke is annoying but not horrid for D3. Ganon should have a hard time landing it in the first place in this matchup.

And it doesn't help that if you know the exact spot D3 is going to be during his recovery, Ganondorf can punish accordingly with many attacks just by following the trajectory.

Again, how exactly? By catching the 2-frame? That super armor eats through the usual aerial punishes Ganon has off-stage (which, by the by, not being affected by tipman offstage is a blessing. That move is terrifying).

Ganon has his merits in the matchup, but I think you're overstating his advantaged state in this matchup. D3 is combo food, but nowhere near as badly as the common conception would lead you to believe.

As I've stated before, I think it's a fairly close matchup, since they play pretty similar games and have fairly similar weaknesses, but I think Ganon's inability to capitalize on two of his most important strengths (outspacing and edgeguarding) limits him here.

 

[Flux0r]

A friendly reminder why patient Sheik is best Sheik.

 

[HeavyLobster]

HeavyLobster Uh... all have somewhat bad MUs against Ganondorf, and I'm iffy about and against Ganondorf.

Some of these MUs might have to rely on Ganondorf's Wizard's Foot, and Charizard is probably the ONLY character who can easily be punished by Ganondorf's reversed Warlock Punch effectively (that Warlock Punch buff, am I right?) if he mistimes a Side B.

But anyways, I'd like to see Ganondorf get more damage or speed buffs. He's still a middle tier character, but I think with the right amount of buffs, he'd be a high tier.

Almost all of those MUs are basically dead even. Ganondorf might beat Kirby or Doc slightly. I said Puff is the only character Ganondorf beats decisively, all the others are debatable or only very slight advantages(55:45) for Dorf.

 

[williamsga555]

Really glad to finally get to see someone using Dimensional Cape so much.

I've heard it's a great tool for so long but never had the chance to watch it in action.

 

[Fatmanonice]

How on Earth do are any of those characters beaten by Ganondorf? Dr Mario? Dedede? Kirby!?

Care to explain yourself?


EDIT: Changed the wording, i made a typo that stated the opposite of my thouhgts. lol

I agree with this.

may not be as good as but can still do a lot of the same stupid stuff against Ganondorf, especially with jab, pills, dthrow, and uair.

is even at worst because both have to rely on extreme patience because both have tools that can royally screw the other over. can reflect gordos with ease and forces to approach and with crap mobility, range is hard to deal with up close. This is also why warlock choke is really good against Dedede too because has a hard time dealing with its follow ups. This is also why perfect shielding anything is really bad too. On the flipside of things, has a great grab range and good follow ups against heavy characters. Offstage, is pretty much target practice and god help him if gets a gordo ledge stick because 's recovery options evaporate. range helps him out too and I'd argue that has better punishes off of perfect shields . also has the advantage of being able to live longer thanks to his recovery.

just seems like a trainwreck. A buffet of grab options, dair destroys characters with poor mobility, tilts for days, and a terror offstage is you have a bad recovery. The only thing I see bad for in this match up is how early can kill light characters and maybe lack of range.

 

[Kofu]

I thought Marth, Lucina, and Roy had the only back airs that turn them around. I just noticed Villager has one too. Just a cool fact. Do you guys think this matters? In my opinion, Marth's Bair is 2x more useful because of this.

I could be remembering wrong but I'm pretty sure Villager's doesn't? It just looks like it does. Then again I usually use it out of a low jump so I could be wrong.

 

[Tizio Random]

VoiD still demostrating that Sheik is amazing even without Needles. And much more fun to watch.

 

[Amadeus9]

>mfw someone says mk vs sheik is even

 

[HeavyLobster]

I agree with this.

may not be as good as but can still do a lot of the same stupid stuff against Ganondorf, especially with jab, pills, dthrow, and uair.

is even at worst because both have to rely on extreme patience because both have tools that can royally screw the other over. can reflect gordos with ease and forces to approach and with crap mobility, range is hard to deal with up close. This is also why warlock choke is really good against Dedede too because has a hard time dealing with its follow ups. This is also why perfect shielding anything is really bad too. On the flipside of things, has a great grab range and good follow ups against heavy characters. Offstage, is pretty much target practice and god help him if gets a gordo ledge stick because 's recovery options evaporate. range helps him out too and I'd argue that has better punishes off of perfect shields . also has the advantage of being able to live longer thanks to his recovery.

just seems like a trainwreck. A buffet of grab options, dair destroys characters with poor mobility, tilts for days, and a terror offstage is you have a bad recovery. The only thing I see bad for in this match up is how early can kill light characters and maybe lack of range.

Really Kirby is a MU where Ganondorf can win by outspacing and killing fast. Kirby does body him hard up close but can't always get in easily. Ganondorf actually has a slight advantage in neutral here in spite of getting abused horribly in disadvantage. Doc also combos Dorf hard but gets outspaced and edgeguarded. In general Doc and Kirby mostly play like weaker versions of two of Dorf's easier high tier MUs(Mario and MK), though in Doc's case his edgeguarding strength means it's not really that much easier than Mario.

 

[Das Koopa]

Looking like we'll be getting 3 Sheiks in top 4

Vinnie needs to win one more match afaik

 

[Mario766]

I'd love to see Flame Choke buffs.


Because Ike would still annihilate Ganon regardless.