Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[JesterJaded]

Look, I just use Link for Link. If I'm not allowed to play the character I've enjoyed my life, then put me in a skewer and roast me until I'm dead. But at least I'll go somewhere in the pursuit of getting better with Link or actually giving a lot of what Link has and doing my best with him.

Is Toon Link better? Maybe so. Does that mean I'm changing to him? No, because he's just too weird of a character for me to effectively use; I'd use Link for familiarity and mastery instead of starting with Toon Link.

It isn't as if playing Link will mark you as a scrub; if you can get results with Link and enjoy playing him, by all means, continue to play the character. The more diverse mains in competitive play, the better, and you'll be contributing to expand the meta for a character many others chose not to. There's no shame in that.

I've personally enjoyed the younger Link more ever since Melee, so there's likely some bias coming from me here, but I also choose to play the character both because of loyalty and because his kit resonates with my playstyle, and I'd continue to play him even if he weren't viable.

 

[David Viran]

Imagine if Link's D-Throw got that Goldilocks Angle or KB that would allow that. What would need to be the perfect angle or KB for kill confirms?

I disagree. Link would not want zss's dthrow angle and/or kb. It only works so well for zss because her mobility is so good she doesn't really care how far her opponent gets launched.

 

[FallofBrawl]

People get way too theoretical in this thread. I dislike when people compare frame data in a vacuum and call a move "easily react-able/avoidable" if it's more than 6 frames.

Play a game and reaction time gets muddled, revolving theory around a perfect player is sometimes good, but misleading when it's the end all be all.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Look, I just use Link for Link. If I'm not allowed to play the character I've enjoyed my life, then put me in a skewer and roast me until I'm dead. But at least I'll go somewhere in the pursuit of getting better with Link or actually giving a lot of what Link has and doing my best with him.

Is Toon Link better? Maybe so. Does that mean I'm changing to him? No, because he's just too weird of a character for me to effectively use; I'd use Link for familiarity and mastery instead of starting with Toon Link.

Bro, nobody's telling you to switch. Get results and push link forward. Play for fun, but win.

 

[Blobface]

Mid-Range is when you're out of attack range, but you're in range to threaten with things like mix-ups and empty jumps.


Tell me, how does Ganon threaten you at mid-range.

...mix ups and empty jumps.

No, seriously, mid range is exactly where Ganondorf wants to be since that's where he can threaten with his burst mobility and aerials. If he can get his opponent to fear those, he can get in with mix ups. Even in his best range Ganon's neutral is average, maybe even below average, but mid range is still where Ganon shines (darks?).

 

[RonNewcomb]

Frame 14 dash grab won't threaten anyone when you're in mid-range and they have to hard commit for a grab with a huge cooldown.

Landings. Tether dashgrab catches landings. This is particularly important for a low groundspeed character.

I've long felt that Link's gameplan isn't zoning, but stage ownership. He wants to keep you in the air, either above him or offstage. Powershields don't work in mid-air. Half his aerials kill, half have active frames for days. Link doesn't want you to land, and feeds you damage when you're offstage.

Even his crazy fastfall speed seems tailored for returning to stage before you do.

 

[Megamang]

Also, no one has mentioned that the older link has the superior zair. Again, his terrible jump squat hurts its utility.

I think if little child link can figure out how to kill throw, the adult form should be better at it. Its purely a strength thing right? Maybe we'll see that in a month :d


I think wizkick is another move we wont see buffed much as it has tremendous power in more cluttered game modes. My solution would be to increase the range and speed of gerudo. That wont mess up multiple people, and it fits the ganon theme with a message of 'i just read you, if i read you again its gonna hurt'.

 

[Luco]

Also, no one has mentioned that the older link has the superior zair. Again, his terrible jump squat hurts its utility.

I think if little child link can figure out how to kill throw, the adult form should be better at it. Its purely a strength thing right? Maybe we'll see that in a month :D

Actually, the type of back throw TL uses is less about your own strength and more about using the opponent's weight against them. It's similar to Ryu's B-throw - you roll back and use their weight to propel them behind you.

 

[Megamang]

Actually, the type of back throw TL uses is less about your own strength and more about using the opponent's weight against them. It's similar to Ryu's B-throw - you roll back and use their weight to propel them behind you.

Oh, well nvm. Thats pretty cool. It would be cool if it was reverse weight dependent, like heavier characters went further. Though tink doesnt need to dominate heavies more.

 

[Blobface]

I really am not sure how good or bad Wizkick is in FFA's. It has a big hitbox and covers a lot of area, but it will never kill, slows down on-hit, and the high end lag means you can't really use it to knock people away from items.

 

[Seagull Joe]

If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge 's fair.

 

[UberMadman]

Look, I just use Link for Link. If I'm not allowed to play the character I've enjoyed my life, then put me in a skewer and roast me until I'm dead. But at least I'll go somewhere in the pursuit of getting better with Link or actually giving a lot of what Link has and doing my best with him.

Is Toon Link better? Maybe so. Does that mean I'm changing to him? No, because he's just too weird of a character for me to effectively use; I'd use Link for familiarity and mastery instead of starting with Toon Link.

It feels like you're misunderstanding this thread: no one wants you or anyone else to stop using Link. As a matter of fact, we've spent a large amount of time discussing how we need more players to represent the "lesser half" of the cast because we don't fully have a grasp on the extent of their potential when fully optimized. That said, we do have a decent idea of where Link stands and what his flaws as a character are, so people will call you out if you post misinformation on claim a character to have strengths where faults lie instead, (and this goes for BOTH sides of the topic because I've seen people post plenty of misinformation on what conversions Link actually has off of bombs and down-throw, for example.) Link is not an irredeemably bad character or anything, but he is a slow character with laggy moves and limited zoning potential. He possesses decent reward off of bombs and Down-Throw, but its such a hassle to land those conversions on characters with a good neutral that it effectively renders Link, at best, a very risky character at high levels of play, and so naturally people are going to opt for less risky characters who offer similar reward such as Sheik, ZSS, and Meta Knight, (whose neutral isn't amazing but is still decent enough to get the job done.) However, by no means are we telling you to stop playing Link because he's flawed. Hell, I'm a Bowser Jr. loyalist, as weird as that is to say, and I know exactly what I'm getting into when I play this character. Feel free to play who you want to play for whatever reason you want to play them, just don't delude yourself and especially don't delude others about the abilities of your character if you aren't willing to have others disagree with your stance.

 

[LancerStaff]

I really am not sure how good or bad Wizkick is in FFA's. It has a big hitbox and covers a lot of area, but it will never kill, slows down on-hit, and the high end lag means you can't really use it to knock people away from items.

Basically it's better then nothing... It's Dorf's fastest form of movement right? TBH if it killed at typical Dorf level he'd actually be broken in FFAs. It's reward is mostly in position.

Kinda like saying Fox's Fspecial doesn't start enough combos. It's really not supposed to.

 

[FlynnCL]

Does Lucas have the most lagless combo throw in the entire game? If you count the frames between the launch of the opponent and when Lucas is able to act, then you only have 3 frames of cool down. For a non-weight dependant throw, that's ridiculous!

Note that the shield graphic takes an additional frame to appear. Something of note is that Lucas doesn't suffer hitstop during this throw. Oh, and if anyone is curious it was exactly like this in Brawl too.

Here's Bowser. Up-throw is quite impressive, especially since his aerials are scary.

 

[bc1910]

Look, I just use Link for Link. If I'm not allowed to play the character I've enjoyed my life, then put me in a skewer and roast me until I'm dead. But at least I'll go somewhere in the pursuit of getting better with Link or actually giving a lot of what Link has and doing my best with him.

Is Toon Link better? Maybe so. Does that mean I'm changing to him? No, because he's just too weird of a character for me to effectively use; I'd use Link for familiarity and mastery instead of starting with Toon Link.

No-one's asking you to switch. But TL has outperformed Link since release and it's likely to stay that way so you don't need to ram your denial down our throats all the time.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I'm sorry, did you just call that...all-around range game?

For a character who is literally unthreatening out of sword range?

Next I'm gonna hear Ganon's threatening at mid-range. But I digress.

Link can follow-up off Bombs, but Toon Link 1-ups you by being able to set up traps with Boomerang, both hits, and bombs creating frame traps, his better mobility lets him cross-up and get throws which grant actual rewards.

Early percent bombs lead into up-smash, which works back into up-tilts which start juggles on fast fallers. In comparsion, Link gets...One aerial and has to reset to his...in your words 'All-Around Range game' Next I'm gonna hear down throw up-air at kill percents is a guaranteed combo, I swear.

Toon Link's bombs also lead into DI mix-ups, which lets him get either his extremely good up air, or if you DI away, he gets a guaranteed f-air, which you just DI'ed closer to the blast zone for, kinda like against Sheik when you're in range for a F-Air kill and they don't have to work for an up-air.

Also

Link

Speed

In the same sentence.


Excuse me, I can't take it anymore. I gotta laugh.

For the below post, because I don't want to make a new post.

Both things that I said are both unbelievably stupid so I made a workable comparsion.

Link has bad speed. Isn't that an accurate sentence?

 

[outfoxd]

Oh, well nvm. Thats pretty cool. It would be cool if it was reverse weight dependent, like heavier characters went further. Though tink doesnt need to dominate heavies more.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomoe_nage

Obligatory martial arts nerd aside. Those throws are likely modified versions of this or sumi gaeshi. Usually it's not the weight that gets you the throw but planting yourself under your opponents hips once you can get them moving forward. While it cam launch its usually used to get you a roll into a mounted position to work for pins or submissions.

Landing it (any throw, really) from a static standing position is awkward and usually unsuccessful.

....yeah, I know. This is real important stuff.

 

[Smog Frog]

>tfw its alias is monkey flip

that aside, can i point out that is tied for 2nd best airdodge overall in terms of frame data?(intangible 2f, faf 31, intangibility ends f25)

 

[Wintermelon43]

I havn't even heard about most of the stuff here, just proves even more that Link is low-bottom, not joking

If any of you want reasons, I can do that

 

[Radical Larry]

No-one's asking you to switch. But TL has outperformed Link since release and it's likely to stay that way so you don't need to ram your denial down our throats all the time.

At least Link would get me results compared to Toon Link. And you're obviously ignoring the 3DS release; it's as if you've forgotten about it. You know, think of this, if I made one more (an accurate) tier list before G3 and put Toon Link below Link, there would be people who'd agree, but after G3, I just can't do it. There's apparently something going on that makes us suddenly think certain characters are viable when they got huge results in just ONE big tournament, bar other tournaments. What makes us do that?

 

[Wintermelon43]

At least Link would get me results compared to Toon Link. And you're obviously ignoring the 3DS release; it's as if you've forgotten about it. You know, think of this, if I made one more (an accurate) tier list before G3 and put Toon Link below Link, there would be people who'd agree, but after G3, I just can't do it. There's apparently something going on that makes us suddenly think certain characters are viable when they got huge results in just ONE big tournament, bar other tournaments. What makes us do that?

It shows people that don't main a character, what all that character can do AND proves that they are viable or close to viable.

 

[Radical Larry]

It shows people that don't main a character, what all that character can do AND proves that they are viable or close to viable.

But what makes us do that nearly all the time it happens? What makes people instantly think [insert character] is viable when he/she wasn't viable before [insert tournament here]? Should this not be incentive just to play [insert character] but to actually play all characters instead? We shouldn't just do this one at a time, but we need to start looking at ALL characters in a viability standpoint akin to what Toon Link's suddenly received.

But then again, people would be too lazy and would just wait. (And if Link makes top 8 in a major or national and is suddenly called a hidden high tier or viable character, that will be the day I ultimately leave this website.)

 

[MistressRemilia]

At least Link would get me results compared to Toon Link. And you're obviously ignoring the 3DS release; it's as if you've forgotten about it. You know, think of this, if I made one more (an accurate) tier list before G3 and put Toon Link below Link, there would be people who'd agree, but after G3, I just can't do it. There's apparently something going on that makes us suddenly think certain characters are viable when they got huge results in just ONE big tournament, bar other tournaments. What makes us do that?

Who cares about early Smash 4, it's a terrible period
Dealing with an absolutely horrendous controller & our lack of knowledge ended up having us think of Bowser as a high tier, or Robin & Duck Hunt as huge threats, etc. Honestly, this period of Smash 4 should be ignored, there's no way i should consider anyone serious if he uses result of X Character at that period as an argument of why X Chara is better than Y Chara.

 

[Wintermelon43]

But what makes us do that nearly all the time it happens? What makes people instantly think [insert character] is viable when he/she wasn't viable before [insert tournament here]? Should this not be incentive just to play [insert character] but to actually play all characters instead? We shouldn't just do this one at a time, but we need to start looking at ALL characters in a viability standpoint akin to what Toon Link's suddenly received.

But then again, people would be too lazy and would just wait. (And if Link makes top 8 in a major or national and is suddenly called a hidden high tier or viable character, that will be the day I ultimately leave this website.)

I won't call him that. Link sucks.

People already thought thought Toon Link was viable too anyway, he's just even more viable since Hyuga 2-0ed Nairo. If somebody does that with a character that is mid tier, chances are he's a little better than that

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

But what makes us do that nearly all the time it happens? What makes people instantly think [insert character] is viable when he/she wasn't viable before [insert tournament here]? Should this not be incentive just to play [insert character] but to actually play all characters instead? We shouldn't just do this one at a time, but we need to start looking at ALL characters in a viability standpoint akin to what Toon Link's suddenly received.

But then again, people would be too lazy and would just wait. (And if Link makes top 8 in a major or national and is suddenly called a hidden high tier or viable character, that will be the day I ultimately leave this website.)

You do realize what viability means, right? Viability is how well a character can do in a competitive environment. If a character has an amazing performance, it shows they can make it, it shows they are more viable than we thought. TL going up because of Hyuga isn't bad, Hyuga just showed us that Tink is viable.

 

[De Wolfe]

Another factor that makes Tink better than Link is just the fact that hes much smaller. It never hurts to have a smaller than normal hurtbox in any fighting game.

 

[ShortcutButton]

I won't call him that. Link sucks.

People already thought thought Toon Link was viable too anyway, he's just even more viable since Hyuga 2-0ed Nairo. If somebody does that with a character that is mid tier, chances are he's a little better than that

That's even less noteworthy then calling a character viable because of one Top 8, which is what he's arguing against. 2-0ing one person (with little matchup knowledge, to add) and significantly improving that character on the tier list is exactly what we shouldn't do.

People get way too theoretical in this thread. I dislike when people compare frame data in a vacuum and call a move "easily react-able/avoidable" if it's more than 6 frames.

Play a game and reaction time gets muddled, revolving theory around a perfect player is sometimes good, but misleading when it's the end all be all.

Agreed.

 

[aεrgiα]

i think the main difference between tink and links bombs are mainly due to mobility and the time until it explodes, i believe tinks bomb lasts 1 second longer not 100% sure, but due to tinks mobility the difference between the duration of the two seems huge, when u play as tink that bomb seems to last forever, when u play link however it feels like youve taken 2 steps and that bomb is already about to explode, i know this isnt very technical, and ive got no fancy frame data or anything of the sort to back it up, but with tink it feels like you can do so much more with one bomb than with link, when was the last time you saw a link pull out a bomb, run across the stage with it, throw it at your shield, recatch it, and throw it down at you in the same jump, all without having the bomb explode in his hand? checking the frame data(yep i went and did it anyway ;p ), links explodes on frame 220 while toon links explodes frame 299, so tink already has 79 more frames to do something with his bomb(and be less predictable with it/ exert pressure for a longer time with one bomb) but add on his superior mobility and the difference seems more like 170 extra frames because you can do so much more with that single bomb in hand than link can. feel free to disagree because this is not exactly based on hard facts but rather personal "impression" but i wanted to throw in my 2 cents on something which i felt shouldnt be ignored

also what are peoples thoughts about 1111 gunner after genesis 3? im pissed that rom didnt play on stream but imo he did well for someone playing a character often perceived as one of the worst in the game :/

 

[Nobie]

Hyuga showed us very strong Toon Link play, and has made many people re-evaluate TL. No Link managed to do that at Genesis 3. Is it out of the realm of possibility that a Link expert might make us reconsider? I would say no, but it has yet to be proven at the highest of levels. If Link's position is not guaranteed or concrete, then how can we talk about him while keeping that in mind?

I find the problem with talking about tiers is that people are too quick to assert that their thoughts are absolutely correct, and then when a tournament result causes them to reconsider their position, people are too quick to change their minds. I know that sounds somewhat paradoxical, but I still think of these threads as "Character Competitive IMPRESSIONS," and not a place to have a something-something-waving contest about whose tier lists are more accurate. Impressions change, and if people weren't so adamant in their language ("Samus is DEFINITELY Bottom 5!") I think it wouldn't cause people to butt heads so much. Theory and results can still mix together.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Basically it's better then nothing... It's Dorf's fastest form of movement right? TBH if it killed at typical Dorf level he'd actually be broken in FFAs. It's reward is mostly in position.

Kinda like saying Fox's Fspecial doesn't start enough combos. It's really not supposed to.

He wouldn't be broken in FFAs/doubles. He's a major glass cannon in those modes because of how he gets gimped fairly easily due to stray hits. In singles Ganondorf in most MUs can generally avoid getting gimped at cripplingly low %s by saving his double jump and threatening Uair to repel edgeguarders, but in doubles he can easily die to a stray hit that you can't avoid or you DI wrong far more often. He's not better than midtier in doubles, and someone like Ike basically outclasses him for the most part, nevermind borked characters like Cloud. It wouldn't break anything in doubles/FFAs. Wizkick is supposed to punish back rolls. It is very poor at doing so.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

If you can dodge a wrench, you can dodge 's fair.

Except, I'm pretty sure the wrench does not came out on/before Frame 5.

Also +1 to Dodgeball reference.

 

[warionumbah2]

How are people gonna call Tink viable NOW, when Hyuga was literally getting top results at every Mexican national usually losing to the best player there? Results such as him doing well vs Mr R and sending Vinnie to losers was overlooked for no reason other than people not considering Mexico to be a strong region.

Thankfully G3 showed that Mexico isn't weak, the truth would get out sooner or later.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How are people gonna call Tink viable NOW, when Hyuga was literally getting top results at every Mexican national usually losing to the best player there? Results such as him doing well vs Mr R and sending Vinnie to losers was overlooked for no reason other than people not considering Mexico to be a strong region.

Thankfully G3 showed that Mexico isn't weak, the truth would get out sooner or later.

People usually don't accept characters as viable when only one of their players are getting results.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

People usually don't accept characters as viable when only one of their players are getting results.

And then there was ESAM.

 

[JesterJaded]

People usually don't accept characters as viable when only one of their players are getting results.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qhJGw98nLzg

Zan beat Vinnie too. /2cents

 

[Wintermelon43]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qhJGw98nLzg

Zan beat Vinnie too. /2cents

And Abadango

 

[Radical Larry]

That's even less noteworthy then calling a character viable because of one Top 8, which is what he's arguing against. 2-0ing one person (with little matchup knowledge, to add) and significantly improving that character on the tier list is exactly what we shouldn't do.

It's arguably too early to improve a character on the tier list without more fundamental results all-around. I just want people to go further in time, not do some instantaneous switch like we've always had. Hyuga doing how they did in G3 shouldn't affect the viability of Toon Link that much for now, because give Toon Link more time afterwards and maybe there'd be compelling arguments.

And I'm arguing that we need to actually go in-depth in characters who don't even have much tournament results. If we don't do that, then we do NOT have a clear understanding of the objective we're trying to do and we're literally just ending up with just results making this or that character viable. Link might not get as much results as Toon Link, but if people started picking Link up instead of shoving him aside, maybe Link would get more development. Maybe if people started picking up lower tiered characters and actually did stuff, maybe the characters wouldn't be considered lower tier for any matter.

 

[LRodC]

If you have an opinion that goes against the grain, someone will contest you. Fire back, but do it properly. Don't complain about how this thread is a circle jerk because this is how this thread has operated from the very beginning.

If you're just going to make nebulous statements like "Regardless, I still think Link is a heavily underdeveloped character. I don't think he's a poor character in the slightest and needs more people playing him" people will call you out on it.

Don't be so lazy. Back up your arguments with actual tangible points. Tournament results, footage from high level players, etc... anything is better than "Well, I think Link's good."

And if you can't even commit to just that, then you'd be better off ditching this thread.

Fine, that's something I can do. But this metagame is not developed enough (especially after just one year) to speak in absolutes about anyone's viability. Give it time, and then things will fall into place after every patch and stabilization.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

The onus is on them, Larry, not on us. We're not obligated to do anything about how and why people choose their characters.

Subsequently, if you wanna prove us wrong, get up off your keister and start putting in work.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Radical Larry]

The onus is on them, Larry, not on us. We're not obligated to do anything about how and why people choose their characters.

Subsequently, if you wanna prove us wrong, get up off your keister and start putting in work.

Smooth Criminal

I am doing work, but it's not going to be some immediate thing. Sometimes I might go to Anther's, other times I'll be joining in this Bi-Weekly or some tournaments I'm near in my state. I am starting slowly with Link first before anything, then I'll make my way to the next immensely large national or international. I'm starting off small and swaying peoples' opinions little by little IRL, even improving as I go along. The thing with me is that it takes me some time, because I'm still trying to find things out about Link.

Fine, that's something I can do. But this metagame is not developed enough (especially after just one year) to speak in absolutes about anyone's viability. Give it time, and then things will fall into place after every patch and stabilization.

This is true; just because we have some viability in characters right now doesn't mean that they'll be as viable in the future. If the next patch gives Link more mobility or faster attacks, or makes Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop have more start-up or less height, or even removes some of Sheik's mobility or throw setups, there'd be no telling where they'd be.

We've seen this happen to Luigi...twice. He went high and then he started dipping from patches along the course of time. This has also happened to Diddy Kong, and he even started dipping just a little. So we have no set-in-stone knowledge of characters as new ones come out and patches come out alongside them. Things can always come out unpredictably and suddenly, so you're right in saying giving it in time. So far as of now, even with as much time as we have had, we cannot have a set-in-stone anything of tiers until later.