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People who want to succeed as players want to pick the safe choices and don't want to be the guy to risk trying something new, and most of the ones that do want to try advancing a character's metagame usually lack the skill required to break high enough at national tournaments. It's a bit of a catch 22.
No offense to those sheiks, but it seemed like they were just obviously worse (or played the matchup worse) than Karna. I was just handing the title to Jerm since he was the highest placing Robin at G3, but I'll settle for "arguably".
Please head over to the Falco boards for this: http://smashboards.com/forums/falco.496/. Specifically, ask here next time: http://smashboards.com/threads/falco-king-of-the-birds-game-play-discussion.367184/. Also, read the stickied threads, please. They're stickied for a reason.So, opinions, for. Nair or bair for efficient spacing?
Yes, he's an anti-zoner by design - good close-range, a projectile to play at range, and a reflector to counter projectiles -, however, he fails at that when he's limited to being incapable of offensively challenging (Blaster) zoners and reliant on defensively challenging (Reflector) zoners. Both having high recovery compared to other offensive and defensive (anti-)zoning tools hurts. Also, moving slow hurts too when other anti-zoners tend to be fast like Fox and the Pits or have better projectiles to challenge at range like Dr. Mario, Lucas, Ness, and maybe even Luigi.
Smash 4 removed the ability to shorten any of Falco and Fox's Side Specials. Why? I don't know. They should have just shortened Falco Phantasm if they weren't going to bother giving it a full hitbox and why should they when it's the longest spike in the game. It's weak, it's telegraphed, but it covers a huge amount of range which even with half its range, is really difficult to balance and stupid in modes like FFA and 2v2 and up. They should have just given him (a variant of) Wolf Flash if they wanted to kept the idea Falco spikes with his Side Special or just make a better-tuned Falco Charge or Phase the default. Hell, a horizontal Fast Fire Bird could work too. Also, Illusion should be doing more than 3%... It did 7% in Melee, 4% in Brawl, and now? 3%. I get it being "spammable" and 7% might be too "much", but what was wrong with 4%? Why you gotta bring a pilot down?He has side b as a approach option that you should use sparingly. He's like a Luigi to me. Luigi does have a fireball which is vastly more useful than side b, side b is still an option. And his mobility problems are kinda overrate imo. And can't you shorten up his side b usesFfamran
Adding, Rosalina in my opinion, along with Greninja, Sheik, Toon Link, Yoshi, and ZSS have the highest overall movement speed in the game. For Greninja, Sheik, and ZSS, it's the highest overall movement speed in the game as fast fallers. DK would be a runner-up for this since his air acceleration is slightly below-average. For Rosalina, Toon Link and Yoshi, it's the highest overall movement speed as floaties. The runner-up for that would be... Ehh... Wii Fit Trainer? She's kind of near the middle ground, though. I don't count Sonic since he's average fall speed which I'd rather have him, Mario, Marth?, Mewtwo, and Ryu in. Still iffy about Mewtwo since his air acceleration is really poor compared to say Yoshi's whose air acceleration, 0.068, is just slightly below-average. Cloud's also another one for fast fallers, but I don't know the exact numbers for his meter stats.
If you have an opinion that goes against the grain, someone will contest you. Fire back, but do it properly. Don't complain about how this thread is a circle jerk because this is how this thread has operated from the very beginning.
Really? Because, looking through this thread (before Genesis), everybody except for about three people agreed that TL > Link.
I did. General consensus was still TL > Link.
Eh...look at the previous viability threads we've had.
.....Toon Link and Link are completely different characters lmao, every single move has different properties, range, damage, knockback angles, etc.
Wizkick is punishable on hit at low percents and almost never kills. Ganondorf needs it to be strong because it's his only way to cover back rolls. Of course mobility matters but Falcon would be trash with Ganondorf's jab and grab range. Even with his mobility it would be like grabbing with Little Mac. He would still be able to combo off of Dthrow at least, but his neutral would be trash even with his mobility, because otherwise his frame data isn't great and his hitboxes are worse than Ganondorf's. I'm not saying that mobility isn't more important than power, I'm saying that Ganondorf without certain crucial tools being glaringly underpowered would only be around one tier below Falcon, especially considering that Falcon's jab/grab are essential for the character to even be functional at a competitive level.
Comparing the two in my head, the only moves of Link's I would possibly want as Toon Link are NAir (maybe, I know TL's NAir works well into his combos), grab and DThrow, and DAir (again, only potentially, since a big reason Link's DAir works is because his fast fall speed is insane, and it's not like either ones' DAir is a critical part of their moveset).
I watched Hyuga play at G3 when I was at a different tournament the same day, playing Link.
How is it that hard to commit with Link? I'd like to know that.
Defective isn't the word I would use to describe Wizkick. Defective implies the move doesn't do what it's supposed to do. Wizkick does do what it's supposed to do, it's just absolute turbotrash at it. Undertuned doesn't even begin to describe it, Wizkick is underunderunderunderunderunderUNDERtuned. It has more endlag than Ganon's F-smash and does half the damage at best with pitiful knockback.
????????
Ganon is threatening at mid-range. It's the only range he's threatening at. Inside of aerial/Dtilt range he gets outboxed, and obviously he's unthreatening at long range. Link for that matter is much more threatening at midrange than Tink because of better, safer sword moves and an actually threatening grab. All Tink has are projectiles.
I'd rather play Falcon competitively with Ganon's jab and grab than Ganon competitively with Falcon's jab and grab. I admit that the latter would be blessed to have that jab but I can't see the grab being a significantly bigger threat when Ganon's run speed is bottom 5. It'd help, sure, but it wouldn't be a game changer.
Mid-Range is when you're out of attack range, but you're in range to threaten with things like mix-ups and empty jumps.
I mean, Link can do most of this stuff too. His Bomb and Boomerang Followups aren't as easy too perform, but they still exist and are very potent as kill setups (ie Boomerang to Fair, Bomb to Uair). His juggle game is pretty good too since he can trap landings with Utilt / usmash, as well as with his long last aerials such as Uair and Nair. Several of link's moves such as boomerang, bombs and espicially his grab are also good enough to allow him to "play a real Mid range game"
Get this into your head:
Sarcastic answer: that's why you ledge cancel it, to reduce endlag.
Granted Falcon's grab in particular wouldn't help Ganondorf as much as it should since Ganondorf wants standing grab range more than dash grab range, but still under the circumstances you described Ganondorf would absolutely be the better character, mostly because Falcon's jab is his bread and butter. Even if some of his aerials are safe on shield, he no longer has the CQC to really follow up on it, and has to retreat instead of having the option to keep up the pressure, similar to Link. Falcon can't punish nearly as much with a worse grab range, and if his DA clashes with anything he gets bodied by anyone with decent frame data. Ganondorf on the other hand can now punish reasonably well out of shield, jab to stuff OOS options, cover ledge options better, and stuff approaches and clash with projectiles. Ganondorf now has a useful spotdodge thanks to his quick frame 3 option, while Falcon does not thanks to a slow frame 8 one. Falcon's aerials are still strong, but his aerial mobility isn't on the same level as his ground mobility, and his other grounded tools are much less safe, so not being able to do much on the ground limits the usefulness of his mobility.
No.
Definitely no kill setups from dthrow.
LolMario766 frame 14 dash grabs don't threaten anyone? You are looking at a frame data dump and not actual experience.
(also if Link actually did have a kill confirm from dthrow he would absolutely be better than Tink)
Samus wishes it was only 45 frames lol
You know we have an in-depth guide to all things Link.
Imagine if Link's D-Throw got that Goldilocks Angle or KB that would allow that. What would need to be the perfect angle or KB for kill confirms?
Ganon can't always ledge cancel in every situation where he reads back roll. Ganondorf actually can't catch many back rolls with DA/Choke unless they start it right next to you. Otherwise they're just barely out of range. Because he's a read based character he needs actual reward off his hits, and so Wizkick needs respectable reward so that opponents actually need to fear predictably rolling away, which they generally don't if they've got good recovery. It affects Flame Choke techchases as well as landing traps significantly, and specifically matters in the Sonic MU a lot for catching them after they use spring. Making it powerful to compensate for the risk makes the most sense given Ganondorf's character design.
But no one was asking you to switch...
Kofu
Decreasing Wizkick's endlag doesn't really work though. Since it's hitbox starts so long before it ends, hitting a shield would still be very unsafe even if the move ended like, 10 frames after the hitbox, which would already be ridiculous in a bunch of other ways. Even then, it would still be totally nonthreatening to be hit by.
