Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[Baby_Sneak]

So, opinions, for . Nair or bair for efficient spacing?

What controls the most space with the least lag? Does it control the space horizontally or vertically (you'll want horizontal to stop approaches)? But really, you'll find out as you get better and play falco a lot.

Also this, http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

That's your bible for fighting games. Carry it around and read it constantly, but don't forget to apply the knowledge.

 

[S_B]

Patiently waiting for the day that "MK = dash attack or grab" ceases to exist

That day may sadly only come if Sakurai removes the ladder combo and people are forced to play MK with his other abilities.

He can kill at extremely low % with the ladder combo. The character is only going to become more centralized around it with time, just like how Diddy was centralized around the hoo-haa until it was nerfed and people were forced to learn good banana play.

Before that, half the people who played Diddy didn't even bother using banana. Hoo-haa was all they needed...

 

[Megamang]

Still, the ladder knight underperformed and tyrant impressed us with well rounded play.

Also, players are starting to play with their back to the ledge when they are in death % range, preventing follow ups.

I think other stuff will come to light, he has lots of cool locks and setups that arent the doom ladder.

Shiek has a confirm on him, correct? If anyone deserves that...

 

[S_B]

So, what are the opinions on Bowser? Did the patch helped him at all, seeing his results on G3?

I wasn't aware Bowser had any G3 results...

Bowser is still pretty bad though. Everyone who puts him in high tier just because he got a throw combo doesn't know why Bowser is bad to begin with.

Pretty much this.

Bowser now has the ability to turn a match around in moments, thanks to the shell shock, but all of his other weaknesses are still VERY much intact.

Overall, that's okay, because characters need weaknesses, but we have characters in this game who overall have very few weaknesses in comparison to a mountain of strengths, but these are characters that are generally overtuned anyway and could use a nerf.

With the top tier toned down, Bowser might be in a reasonable place, but the same can be said of many characters, really.

 

[Wintropy]

Bowser's definitely better than he was, but I guess his buff fits the nature of his game. It's still difficult for him to win neutral against certain characters, but when he does, his reward speaks for itself.

That said, I don't know if it really helps with his top-tier matchups. He gets better reward now and people have to play safer so he doesn't eat them up for dropping the ball, but is that enough to make him a potent threat? When most of the top-tiers have safe enough options that you nearly have to force an opening, it's difficult to sustain a cohesive neutral.

Hey, he's intimidating now and has a decent reward for playing his game - maybe that's all he ever needed.

 

[FallofBrawl]

The consistency for killing is now much better for Bowser, it doesn't make up for all weaknesses, but it definitely helps bandaid it.

Instead of being a character with a broken arm, he now has a cast and support to keep him relevant in today's meta, where grab reward is somewhat important with shields being strong.

 

[DE235]

> There was only one solo Sheik in the top 8 of G3.
> Every top level Sheik main was there except Edge and Shu from Japan.
> None of the top level Sheik players were taken out by another Sheik.

vs.

> Two solo ZSS players in top 8
> One of those ZSS playes was taken out by the other ZSS player
> A top 3 ZSS player was absent

In no way do G3 results prove that Sheik is massively overtuned to the point where no character can keep up. She's not disproportiately stronger than next best character or everybody else. She still has a slightly negative tournament record against Sonic and an even one against Diddy Kong too.

If you want to increase the balance of Smash 4 you could probably argue that a few minor tweaks on her problematic moves are justified. Dthrow angle / cooldown, fair hitbox, bouncing fish frame data, needle storm ... but take it one bit too far and the character may very well fall apart. Anybody remember what happened to Greninja? To this day, even after receiving numerous buffs since, the character has not recovered from having had no more than two tweaks on moves that were perceived as problematic. But really, as things stand Sheik's strength has not proven to be a major factor of imblanace compared to the incompetence of the weaker characters. Buffing them is still the better option.

Great observations.

 

[Teshie U]

I know we all like to see obscure matchups played at a high level. Best Robin in NA is about to face off with a top sheik if people want to see how the matchup looks.

http://www.twitch.tv/smashunited

 

[FSLink]

I know we all like to see obscure matchups played at a high level. Best Robin in NA is about to face off with a top sheik if people want to see how the matchup looks.

http://www.twitch.tv/smashunited

Looks like he's going Toon Link instead for the first match. Still an interesting matchup for sure.

EDIT: There's the Robin.

 

[ARISTOS]

I know we all like to see obscure matchups played at a high level. Best Robin in NA is about to face off with a top sheik if people want to see how the matchup looks.

http://www.twitch.tv/smashunited

Doesn't look great but Robin seems to have a couple tools she can use, high dmg output keeps her in the game.

Once Robin's on the ledge though ish gets hard

 

[Radical Larry]

On the topic of Bowser's throw combos, let me remind you that even though he has guaranteed follow-ups into U-Tilt, U-Smash and U-Air on opponents, he also has his Whirling Fortress, which is just the cream of the crop of his combo throw. Certain characters can get away from him before he has a chance to do so, but on these characters, if he uses U-Throw > U-Tilt > Aerial U-Spec, that basically makes all characters go under his whim.

Please let me remind you that you have to do the aerial version of Whirling Fortress to get the damage, and thanks to it being Frame 6 on activation, you may not have much time to escape or counter it, depending on character. This kind of combo is meant to do the heavy damage, with a maximum damage clocking at 42% for those who don't need U-Tilt to get hit by it, and 51% for those who do require to be hit by U-Tilt, and this is fresh.

So basically what I'm saying is...
His up throw combos can literally f**k you up.

The consistency for killing is now much better for Bowser, it doesn't make up for all weaknesses, but it definitely helps bandaid it.

Instead of being a character with a broken arm, he now has a cast and support to keep him relevant in today's meta, where grab reward is somewhat important with shields being strong.

And can I mention that you can U-Throw > D-Spec some opponents at 0%? (I'm not even joking.)
That is certainly more than just a cast. It's more like an exo-arm at this point.

 

[Megamang]

Does aerial whirling fortress have an SDI multiplier?

 

[Vipermoon]

Does aerial whirling fortress have an SDI multiplier?

Not aerial. Source: http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

 

[Megamang]

And from that data, it appears to not have auto link angles? If thats true, it should be escapable and thus not a good follow up, especially as a throw follow up since they have lots of time to react to being grabbed.


Though a RAR bair will hurt them for away DI, this is reliant on bad reaction time. Though you could rar and then fortress to mess them up.

I love bowsers new throw :D

 

[Ghostbone]

Bowser's viability mostly depends on who (if anyone) u-throw > bair is true on.

Because that is actually the most disgusting kill confirm I've ever seen.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Bowser's not a bad character right now, but he's not quite good either, mostly due to being Bowser. He at least gets fearsome reward, and was always more functional in neutral than the other heavies, maybe excepting DK. He can finally go offstage thanks to being able to ledgesnap with reverse Up-B. Sadly he is still extreme combo food, and his neutral still isn't good enough to win against many high tiers, but his reward is now enough to give him a puncher's chance. The Uthrow buff is great because Bowser's always had a great grab but didn't get much besides positioning off it before. He's a scary midtier but still has clear limitations
( among others) that keep him from becoming a huge force in the meta.

 

[Vipermoon]

Bowser's viability mostly depends on who (if anyone) u-throw > bair is true on.

Because that is actually the most disgusting kill confirm I've ever seen.

Agreed, though once again this does not address his design issues. But yes, a 35 degree knockback angle Bair is not something you want to be guaranteed to hit you.

 

[HoSmash4]

To put my point back on track so it doesn't get derailed even further

I'd argue Villager's results do place him above Mario right now if only because Ranai has broken limits with Villager more than Ally has with Mario. The Japanese crowd is really tough and Ranai was cracking ZeRo's armor. Maybe this is matchup dependent, but I don't see Ally or other Mario mains like Anti being able to do the same thing.

In spite of Villager's grab game he has so many good spacing tools that imo make up for it in spades, + his stupid recovery and good edge guard options.



Given how few people player Pikas his performance definitely needs to be a measure and we can't let his Genesis 3 performance rock him too hard considering he had to fight Nairo in that bracket.

He had to fight Nairo because he lost to a Norcal Mario called Teb. Premier pikachu here guys. Can we judge him on that?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bowser is still pretty bad though. Everyone who puts him in high tier just because he got a throw combo doesn't know why Bowser is bad to begin with.

Bowser's been improved significantly regardless of what people thought of him or think of him now. Gaining a kill confirm and a buff to his damage output may not make him a high tier character but it could easily end up being the difference between a low tier and a mid tier character.

 

[Luco]

I think Rosa would still be considered a contender for top 5 even without Dabuz. I think the distinction is that Dabuz makes her look like a top 3 that she probably wouldn't be seen as if he wasn't around - she'd be sitting around the likes of Fox, Sonic, Diddy etc.

Also speaking of which, but Larry got knocked out of winners by FOW. He only used Fox in one of those 3 games but it was disgustingly one-sided.

More Ness stuff below. Forgive my tunnel vision.

Spoiler

Ness vs Villager should never be equated to Ness vs Rosa. Like, ever. Villager isn't even a counter (FOW vs Ranai just backs up my hypothesis that it's an even MU).

Also, I think EL has a lower opinion of Ness than most so it's easier to equate their viability for him (in regards to Lucas).

And finally I feel like someone mentioned how Sonic is a tried and tested top 5 contender, and yet I've barely heard foot or hair from him recently. 6WX at 13th with Sonic and Ryu is really good, but Diddy seems to be getting top 8 more consistently, so does Fox.

 

[wpwood]

Ness vs Villager should never be equated to Ness vs Rosa. Like, ever. Villager isn't even a counter (FOW vs Ranai just backs up my hypothesis that it's an even MU).

But there are no top level Ness in Japan for Ranai to test stuff against. He might not know all the ins and outs of the MU. Dabuz has fought many top level Ness and destroyed them. With time maybe Ranai will do the same.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

But there are no top level Ness in Japan for Ranai to test stuff against.

Exactly what do you know about Japan to make such claims?

 

[Luco]

But there are no top level Ness in Japan for Ranai to test stuff against. He might not know all the ins and outs of the MU. Dabuz has fought many top level Ness and destroyed them. With time maybe Ranai will do the same.

Also, to throw your argument right back at you, which top level Villagers are FOW and Shaky playing for that side of the MU to be completely known? At least, around the level of Ranai?

"With time" is exactly what we need to think about here. It was one set. One close set between FOW and Japan's best player. It's been cited on the same level as Rosa/Ness more than once on this thread and that bugs me.

 

[Radical Larry]

And from that data, it appears to not have auto link angles? If thats true, it should be escapable and thus not a good follow up, especially as a throw follow up since they have lots of time to react to being grabbed.


Though a RAR bair will hurt them for away DI, this is reliant on bad reaction time. Though you could rar and then fortress to mess them up.

I love bowsers new throw :D

Actually, the U-Throw > aerial U-Spec combo is one very weird combo. Rage does have one heavy effect on it that makes it hard to link up, and there is no reason you should ever use the B Button during U-Spec, and you should not move from your spot too much. Otherwise, it's usable.

But, you mention it doesn't have auto link angles, but I think from what I've done, the first hit of the attack links up to the rest of the move, and that the move probably has auto-link angles on the re-hit parts, but if I'm wrong, then these are some very good set knockback hits. Regardless, let's not forget that the attack has frame 6 start-up, a first hit that links to the rest, and there's also factors like how high the attack rises (and any opponent caught in it can't escape from it due to re-hit and probably inability to truly SDI without rage) as well as Bowser's immense size.

From all of my matches (online, offline and offline tournaments) that I've used this, I've had a 100% guaranteed hit rate when activating the combo on non-fast falling characters. In these events, I've also had to use my secondary jump for pinpoint precision, just like we have to do with U-Throw > U-Air.

The combo needs some more exploration though. I feel like so far, this might be Bowser's ticket to upper mid-tier.

 

[Wintermelon43]

But there are no top level Ness in Japan for Ranai to test stuff against. He might not know all the ins and outs of the MU. Dabuz has fought many top level Ness and destroyed them. With time maybe Ranai will do the same.

Isn't there Taranito?

 

[The Revolutionary Cafe]

Also, to throw your argument right back at you, which top level Villagers are FOW and Shaky playing for that side of the MU to be completely known? At least, around the level of Ranai?

"With time" is exactly what we need to think about here. It was one set. One close set between FOW and Japan's best player. It's been cited on the same level as Rosa/Ness more than once on this thread and that bugs me.

If I recall doesn't FOW play with MJG a lot? Even then it's a different type of villager compared to Ranai so I guess that means something.

 

[Illuminose]

idt ranai has ever played taranito fwiw and he doesn't go to a lot. there is a severe lack of ness players in japan.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

How would villager be a counter for ness in the first place? Does he dominate the neutral? Does he punish harder than ness in general? How des his tools interact with ness?

 

[PK Gaming]

I know we all like to see obscure matchups played at a high level. Best Robin in NA is about to face off with a top sheik if people want to see how the matchup looks.

http://www.twitch.tv/smashunited

Jerm's a good player, but I'd still give the title of "best Robin in NA" to Dath. Jerm ate way too much damage getting back on stage, and his on stage presence is definitely weaker than Dath's.

Here are better examples of that matchup being played at high level [1] [2]

 

[Radical Larry]

How would villager be a counter for ness in the first place? Does he dominate the neutral? Does he punish harder than ness in general? How des his tools interact with ness?

From what I've seen in matches...

Pocket negates PK Thunder and gimps Ness, Ness has an awful time trying to beat Villager's recovery, Villager has a far superior zoning game against Ness and has F-Air and B-Air that can beat Ness's approaching options. He's definitely got better punishing game, a superior edge-guarding game (from what I've seen) and has an easier time approaching than Ness. That's all I really know, but the fact that Pocket eats Ness's PKT is one of the biggest reasons that Villager can be a counter to Ness.

 

[LRodC]

So why is the consensus that Toon Link is better than Link now? Is it just results from Hyuga? Is it the mobility vs. power and range? To be honest I always thought they were pretty even since launch. I can't see them too far apart.

 

[TurboLink]

From what I've seen in matches...

Pocket negates PK Thunder and gimps Ness, Ness has an awful time trying to beat Villager's recovery, Villager has a far superior zoning game against Ness and has F-Air and B-Air that can beat Ness's approaching options. He's definitely got better punishing game, a superior edge-guarding game (from what I've seen) and has an easier time approaching than Ness. That's all I really know, but the fact that Pocket eats Ness's PKT is one of the biggest reasons that Villager can be a counter to Ness.

How does Ness have an awful time trying to beat Villager's recovery when it has no hitboxes and leaves him vulnerable to up air, nair, and bair?

 

[PK Gaming]

So why is the consensus that Toon Link is better than Link now? Is it just results from Hyuga? Is it the mobility vs. power and range? To be honest I always thought they were pretty even since launch. I can't see them too far apart.

Now? People have thought TL > Link for ages, man

 

[Tizio Random]

So why is the consensus that Toon Link is better than Link now? Is it just results from Hyuga? Is it the mobility vs. power and range? To be honest I always thought they were pretty even since launch. I can't see them too far apart.

I don't think that anyone ever though that Link was better than Toon Link. Also, here in Italy we have a really good player BlueLink that achieved many results with TL. Unfortunately our scene isn't very big.

 

[LRodC]

Now? People have thought TL > Link for ages, man

Not always. A lot of people put them as equals and some put Link ahead, including me earlier on.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

From what I've seen in matches...

Pocket negates PK Thunder and gimps Ness, Ness has an awful time trying to beat Villager's recovery, Villager has a far superior zoning game against Ness and has F-Air and B-Air that can beat Ness's approaching options. He's definitely got better punishing game, a superior edge-guarding game (from what I've seen) and has an easier time approaching than Ness. That's all I really know, but the fact that Pocket eats Ness's PKT is one of the biggest reasons that Villager can be a counter to Ness.

His recovery can't be the main reason villager possibly counters him since it takes the neutral to win villager that position. Not to mention, Ness's recovery is one of the most exploitable ones in the game.

The neutral could just mean 60/40, or such, but then that's not a counter, just a advantage. And ness has a slew of strong hitting and damaging moves, as well as a combo that Carry's the opponent across the stage.

 

[wedl!!]

Speed (frame data/mobility)>power in every case. See: Falcon>Ganon, Reptile being high tier in MKX, a game where characters lack mobility.

Mid range pressure and Bomb safety/conversions are real on Toon Link. Not so much on Link.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Speed (frame data/mobility)>power in every case. See: Falcon>Ganon, Reptile being high tier in MKX, a game where characters lack mobility.

Mid range pressure and Bomb safety/conversions are real on Toon Link. Not so much on Link.

See magneto vs Zangief in the marvel games

 

[Glyphagos]

> There was only one solo Sheik in the top 8 of G3.
> Every top level Sheik main was there except Edge and Shu from Japan.
> None of the top level Sheik players were taken out by another Sheik.

vs.

> Two solo ZSS players in top 8
> One of those ZSS playes was taken out by the other ZSS player
> A top 3 ZSS player was absent

In no way do G3 results prove that Sheik is massively overtuned to the point where no character can keep up. She's not disproportiately stronger than next best character or everybody else. She still has a slightly negative tournament record against Sonic and an even one against Diddy Kong too.

If you want to increase the balance of Smash 4 you could probably argue that a few minor tweaks on her problematic moves are justified. Dthrow angle / cooldown, fair hitbox, bouncing fish frame data, needle storm ... but take it one bit too far and the character may very well fall apart. Anybody remember what happened to Greninja? To this day, even after receiving numerous buffs since, the character has not recovered from having had no more than two tweaks on moves that were perceived as problematic. But really, as things stand Sheik's strength has not proven to be a major factor of imblanace compared to the incompetence of the weaker characters. Buffing them is still the better option.

I honestly don't know if you're attacking ZSS with that comparison or you're just using her as an example to show they're both not overtuned.

 

[Radical Larry]

Speed (frame data/mobility)>power in every case. See: Falcon>Ganon, Reptile being high tier in MKX, a game where characters lack mobility.

Mid range pressure and Bomb safety/conversions are real on Toon Link. Not so much on Link.

Alright, then Little Mac should be in top tier right?
Your whole Speed > Power argument is mostly invalid when you bring in characters like Falco and Little Mac, who are faster than Link but still considered lower in ranks.