Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[HeavyLobster]

After top 3, I find that everyone afterwards have significant flaws, so pointing out some of Mario's in terms of viability is difficult when it's all relative. Which characters do you think are better than Mario?

at least are better. There's a few others that are questionable.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Too bad ledge trumping can be avoided entirely, literally buffer jump and mix up air dodge/aerial and Mario can't do a thing except go for a flimsy up air if his reaction is good enough. He can punish buffered rolls/get up attack with his ledge sliding smash options, but jump and Mario can't do anything significant.

EDIT: Point being, Mario is better off staying on stage to cover ledge options (that's why his smashes are so good) rather than go off stage and edge guard and potentially give up stage control.

 

[Fatmanonice]

at least are better. There's a few others that are questionable.

That still leaves another 47 characters that are theoretically worse though and still places Mario in the top 20% (though I'm still not totally sold on Cloud yet outside of doubles). Overrated? Sure. Bad? How? The character still does fine competitively and hasn't steadily lost competitive relevancy like have in the past year and even then it's hard to make the argument that any of these characters are "bad" either.

 

[san.]

at least are better. There's a few others that are questionable.

Ok, I see. I raised an eyebrow at the 15 comment. I can see how many of those in the top 10 area can be debated.

Right now, my ~top 10 looks like:






So I have Mario as 9th. I couldn't think of many others below that placing that could be above Mario. Ness, Pit, etc maybe? I don't think Mario is dominant, but hardly any character is really that dominant. I think Mario is versatile enough to generally make up for his weaknesses.

 

[Attila_]

FOW's my last hope for Falco and he, apparently and inexplicably, uses Falco for Rosalina. All the Falco players drowned in pools which isn't surprising since in no international major has Falco placed above top 64 and in most cases they drown in the first pool. For majors, Falco has won one major, an Australian major?, and I think BIGBOSS/Attila_ switched from Falco a while back. FOW won - was typing this in during the match -; he's about to get 3-0'd by the next Rosalina player, Dabuz, if he chooses to use Falco, but it's still Falco, so I gotta root for him. ;_;

I solo mained Falco until Cloud was released; now I mostly use Cloud. Falco is still solid in certain MUs though.

 

[HeavyLobster]

That still leaves another 47 characters that are theoretically worse though and still places Mario in the top 20% (though I'm still not totally sold on Cloud yet outside of doubles). Overrated? Sure. Bad? How? The character still does fine competitively and hasn't steadily lost competitive relevancy like have in the past year and even then it's hard to make the argument that any of these characters are "bad" either.

I didn't say bad and I don't think he's bad. His mobility + frame data keeps him from really being helpless against anyone or having the kind of MU that would render him bad. I said around 15th, but he's more likely to be better than 15th than worse, at least right now. Ness and the Pits are probably the other ones around his level, so between 12th-15th is probably a more accurate representation of my view. Pit is basically Mario but with disjoints in exchange for somewhat worse frame data.(still really good for a sword char)

 

[Fatmanonice]

san.

Ike's a character I've dabbled with since Brawl and I wanted to hear the opinion of one of the top Ike experts: how would you say he compares to Cloud competitively? Consensus seems to say that is the best swordsmen in the game right now but I wanted to know your opinion on who takes second and how much they beat out the guy in third.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

What do people think of Pit? His frame data isnt the best and his bmoves are decent at best, his arrows can gimp but they wouldnt hit a high level player very often, and he is good offstage but his aerials last too short

 

[san.]

san.

Ike's a character I've dabbled with since Brawl and I wanted to hear the opinion of one of the top Ike experts: how would you say he compares to Cloud competitively? Consensus seems to say that is the best swordsmen in the game right now but I wanted to know your opinion on who takes second and how much they beat out the guy in third.

MK is most definitely best sword.

I think both Ike and Cloud are around that 15th-20th area right now, closer to 15. Ike has some underutilized and even unused tech and plenty of room for growth in terms of optimization. Some things are simple like dtilt->bair which true combo after 11% and extend a lot Ike's low % combos, to things that are more complex like traps, extending strings correctly using platforms, ideal location for confirming aether spikes, and general edgeguarding/recovery skills. There's a lot more I can go into, but my outlook of Ike has improved a little despite poor showing at G3. Ike benefits more than most from global options such as option selects and extended dash dancing due to the nature of his kit.

I think people are also underrating Cloud's ability to combo. He does have modest dthrow followups which is enough, and he can ensure some trap situations as well. I think people have proven that Cloud isn't extremely simple to gimp, though he's still worse. I still can't pinpoint what optimal play is for Cloud. It feels like there's more than baiting with limit charge and the like, but I can't really pin it down. Right now, Cloud doesn't seem like a pillar of stability which is why I have him a bit lower compared to most people, but I do believe that he is a potent pocket character, and most are properly using him that way.

Overall IMO
MK > Pits if you combine both > Cloud > Ike. Latter 3 are incredibly close.

 

[Teshie U]

Are we really considering MK a swordsman? I know he technically has a sword, but most of the time he just tries to slide kick you or grab you.

Aside from Fsmash, his range isn't even anything close to a swordsman's style. Putting him in a category with characters that fight with a sword is pointless.

 

[ARGHETH]

Weren't we just talking about how MK's neutral isn't just dash grab/attack? He still spaces with a disjoint; it's just a kind of tiny one.

 

[LancerStaff]

What do people think of Pit? His frame data isnt the best and his bmoves are decent at best, his arrows can gimp but they wouldnt hit a high level player very often, and he is good offstage but his aerials last too short

Uh... He's got the fourth(?) lowest overall startup of any character according to Thinkaman, and a bunch of safe moves. Earth definitely does get arrow gimps, and it's not from people not knowing the matchup. His aerials don't last long enough? Nair's active for twenty frames... Fair for nine. More importantly both are multihit moves that lead into a final hit rather then decaying over time like most. Okay, Bair and Dair only last three frames apiece, but they're more punish options then for catching airdodges. Fair gets nutty real quick with the 180 growth. (Meaning Bair isn't as important as it is on paper.)

Overall IMO
Pits combined are slightly better then Cloud and Ike.

Huh... Surprised you'd say that. Any particular reason why?

 

[Jamurai]

Are we really considering MK a swordsman? I know he technically has a sword, but most of the time he just tries to slide kick you or grab you.

Aside from Fsmash, his range isn't even anything close to a swordsman's style. Putting him in a category with characters that fight with a sword is pointless.

Patiently waiting for the day that "MK = dash attack or grab" ceases to exist

His disjoints are very useful actually, especially against short range characters like Mario and Pika. In these matchups you can play him very much like a traditional swordsman (trading sword length for frame data and speed) to great effect.

He has a few other moves with a similar range to Fsmash on the ground: Ftilt 3, Dtilt and jab finisher are all very good disjoints. Solid disjoints on his Utilt and Usmash make them amazing anti-air moves. Dair and Uair are great pokes from above or below respectively because they don't extend his hurtbox.

I agree he's definitely not a traditional swordsman in terms of playstyle ie. abuse long disjoints with good spacing, but saying he isn't one at all cause he has a small sword (do you really want Brawl sword length back?), is fast, and has a good move which doesn't involve the sword doesn't make much sense to me.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Honestly, Mario's edgeguarding tools are not particularly good. There are a couple of recoveries he can exploit and a few ones he can gimp. But those happen to be recoveries that are generally sort of vulnerable to begin with.

Mario's edgeguarding options are not better than:


In addition to that there are also characters that have strong ledgetrapping options:



The overall process of being offstage -> grabbing the ledge -> getting back on the stage is not particularly threatening against Mario. There aren't too many situations where he can deal a lot of damage, let alone net a kill. Usmash is a good tool when the opponent grabs the ledge but not as potentially dangerous as a Gyro, a Trampoline or a Bike.

Right now, my ~top 10 looks like:

I agree that Mario should be ranked above Pikachu but what is it that supposedly makes Mario better than Villager? I really don't see why that opinion is still so popular. If people are sceptical of Villager being top tier, top 5 or even top 8 and argue that he's carried too much by Ranai that's one thing.

But what has Mario done to still be considered better? Neither his results nor his matchups / theory really give much of a reason to think so.

 

[Yikarur]

Villager is still a very limited character because of his horrible grabs. I don't think he has deserved a Top10 spot just because Ranai is a genius. When you see Ranai playing you clearly see him outplaying and outconditioning his opponents. I don't think Villager himself is Top10.

 

[Teshie U]

Having a disjoint here and there doesn't feel so much like a swordsman to me.

Duck Hunt, Greninja, GnW, Villager all do that sort of thing too.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Hey look, I can play this game too!

"Mario is still a very limited character because of his horrible grounded range. I don't think he has deserved a Top10 spot just because Ally is a genius. When you see Ally playing you clearly see him outplaying and outconditioning his opponents. I don't think Mario himself is Top10."

 

[Yikarur]

We've become more mature than that over the past 7 years Gheb.

 

[Das Koopa]

I'll make a little more of a substantive point on that subject

If one player can do what Ranai does with Villager this explicitly reflects on what Villager is capable just as much as it reflects on Ranai's capability with the character. If Hungrybox and Hungrybox alone can keep Jigglypuff #5 on Melee's tier list I'm pretty sure that Ranai could make Villager Top 10 just by doing well with him.

I don't think people dispute Rosalina's quality as a character but Dabuz is the only person keeping her consistently relevant. This applies to a few characters ATM.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Dabuz is the only person keeping her consistently relevant.

That's just blatantly not true though.

 

[Das Koopa]

That's just blatantly not true though.

It's totally true at a national level. Nobody else consistently tops with her at the position/level that Dabuz does.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Kirihara got 4th / 34902384092380 at Umebura FAT outplacing the likes of Ally and Vinnie and beating dudes like Ranai and Edge [top 4 Sheik].

 

[TriTails]

Don't bother, Fatmanonice

Mario is a bad character.

Smooth Criminal

I respect you, dude.

...but I don't recall A2ZOMG ever said that.

Unless we are referring to the vectoring world back then, yes, and rightfullly so. Combos become harder and his already limited reliable kill options become even worse. 3DS ceiling is also a threat to Mario's U-smash by itself.

--------------------

Mario vs Doc

IMO, Doc wins this one. Not only their attacks come out mostly at the same time, but Doc trades better and gets more reward out of them. 14 (Or 13.44%, damn you multiplier)% B-air is the best example of this.

Doc also has:
- Much better edgeguarding, basically with the Nado alone. It covers a lot more options than everything Mario can do. D-air is actually a fairly legit downward edgeguarding tool. FLUDD only kills peoplie if they are caught in the middle of their recovery moves (And become helpless afterwards), otherwise, it almost always sends people up. Cape doesn't hit downwards (And the stalling makes it harder to gimp) and N-air is pretty weak. Both can be finished with one hit but Nado I feel can cover more recovery options. It can also catch 2 frame ledge vulnerability, so there's that.

(Both recoveries are bad so offstage is basically dependent on who's offstage or onstage anyway)

- Both has F3 N-air, but Doc relies less on combos due to his higher damage output (19% uncharged F-smash or 16% ******** U-smash, lmao). He should be spamming B-air because it beats almost everything on Mario's kit.

- Worse mobility, but against Mario, you shouldn't worry much on his mobility. Meaningful damages he can do is when he's right in your face, and Doc ironically does better at that.

- Better OoS options. F3 shoryuken and F9 U-smash that covers full 180 degrees that last until frame 13 bruh. This means threatening Doc's shield gets much more dangerous than the opposition's, because Mario can't exactly kill you with anything except for a B-throw at the ledge or U-smash, which sometimes misses in his front.

- Better cape and U-smash. I feel like those two deserve a mention. Doc's Sheet lacks stalling, but it's much better as a CQC tool (Considering the flipping effect) and can actually wavebounce in the air (Trust me. I've done this on accident and dodged Bowser Bomb when I was flying right to it). U-smash provides even better coverage and sets up edgeguards, and can provide defenses against greedy SH attempts.

I play both characters, so I know both of them pretty well. IMO, Doc wins in almost the same way Luigi does, they trade better + better edgeguards + doesn't care about combos + doesn't care about mobility (Which no one does anyway) which is their weak point + can reliably deal damage without relying on combos. Sure, Mario is a better character overall, but Doc actually wins this MU I find it funny Mario is beaten by the two that are supposed to be lower on the tier list/based on him.

 

[Das Koopa]

Kirihara got 4th / 34902384092380 at Umebura FAT outplacing the likes of Ally and Vinnie and beating dudes like Ranai and Edge [top 4 Sheik].

Consistency is the keyword.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Consistency is the keyword.

Kirihara's last 3 tournament results:

4th @ Umebura Genesis Cup [1st Rain, 2nd Shu, 3rd Abadango]; wins against Paseriman [2nd best Pit] and KEN [top 3 Sonic]; placed higher than Nietono, Choco amd Umeki [best or 2nd best Peach]

4th @ Umebura FAT [1st Nairo, 2nd Komorikiri, 3rd Choco]; wins against Ranai and Edge; placed higher than Ally, Vinnie, Ranai, 9B and Edge

3rd @ Umebura 18 [1st Ranai, 2nd Choco]; placed higher than Umeki, Nietono, KEN, Rain, Shu and Abadango

Entrants range between ~200 and ~400.

You're welcome.

 

[Rizen]

Q for the Mario/doc players: which neutral B move is better, fireball or vites? And why?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sometimes I just like to ask about certain characters because it's seems like they never get talked about. What are peoples' thoughts on Lucas? I think the character is largely slept on, especially after the last patch.

-Zair and PK fire are awesome for spacing.
-Great set up throw and three throws that work as kill throws.
-Doesn't get chewed up and farted out against Rosalina like Ness does.
-Great offstage game.
-Multiple recovery options.
-Has no shortage of reliable kill moves.
-Great tilts.
-Great jab.
-Fsmash comes out super quick.
-Tons of combo options.
-Little landing lag with his aerials.

I feel like he's at least as good as the Pits at worst as he is right now. Thoughts?

He's as good as Ness.

Period.

People for w/e reason just don't know it.

 

[Das Koopa]

Kirihara's last 3 tournament results:

4th @ Umebura Genesis Cup [1st Rain, 2nd Shu, 3rd Abadango]; wins against Paseriman [2nd best Pit] and KEN [top 3 Sonic]; placed higher than Nietono, Choco amd Umeki [best or 2nd best Peach]

4th @ Umebura FAT [1st Nairo, 2nd Komorikiri, 3rd Choco]; wins against Ranai and Edge; placed higher than Ally, Vinnie, Ranai, 9B and Edge

3rd @ Umebura 18 [1st Ranai, 2nd Choco]; placed higher than Umeki, Nietono, KEN, Rain, Shu and Abadango

Entrants range between ~200 and ~400.

You're welcome.

Not even within a mile of Dabuz's record, mate.

You're missing my point anyway. If you removed Dabuz from the equation, Rosalina would absolutely not be considered a Top 5 contender, but Dabuz (and almost exclusively him, if we're going to split hairs) has shown that she's capable of that. That's my point and I laid it out and I don't know why you sidetracked it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

If dabuz weren't there ... you'd still have Kirihara beating Ranai, top 5 Sheiks et al. You'd still have Ray beating dudes like Anti and placing top at big regionals. You still have falln and Xaltis who place well in competent regions and were like top 48 at G3.

Of course she'd still be considered a top 5 contender.

Not even within a mile of Dabuz's record, mate.

> outplaces the same people that dabuz outplaces
> beats Ranai, just like dabuz
> beats Edge who is ~= Void
> "not even within a mile"

But of course he's just a japanese sub-human so he's not allowed to be part of the equation, right?

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

He's as good as Ness.

Period.

People for w/e reason just don't know it.

Just knock opinions out of the park, eh? Saying "this is how it is, no arguments" is a statement that shouldn't even exist in this thread, unless it's for extremely obvious cases like "is Sheik top 5". Convince us, don't tell us.

 

[Sneak Sneaks]

What dp ypu think of Marth? In theory he sucks with his silly frame data but I think it has been proven he does have the potential

 

[Das Koopa]

If dabuz weren't there ... you'd still have Kirihara beating Ranai, top 5 Sheiks et al. You'd still have Ray beating dudes like Anti and placing top at big regionals. You still have falln and Xaltis who place well in competent regions and were like top 48 at G3.

Of course she'd still be considered a top 5 contender.

This is in comparison to a tournament record where Dabuz has managed to very, very rarely place outside of the podium even at big-time nationals since the game came out:

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Smasher:Dabuz

Those things make her look good, but it's a bit silly to argue we'd see Rosa in the same light if Dabuz wasn't around. Same with Ranai, DKwill, Ally, and ESAM. Players can push characters to the limit. That's the substance of my earlier post.

But of course he's just a japanese sub-human so he's not allowed to be part of the equation, right?

I'm on 24 hours and I'm really tired and irratable here so I'm just gonna say my piece on this, because I won't be treated like this.

I make a post that basically argues that "Yeah, if a character consistently tops well, it doesn't matter if it's just one guy doing it" and use Ranai as a prime example. Instead of correcting me on Dabuz and immediately listing Kirihara, you goad me into a response when I'm not as familiar with Japanese tops. Then, you throw "You're welcome" on the end of your post, which seems pretty disrespectful given the context.

But now you're basically implying that I'm racist even though all I'm saying is that the 3rd best player in the world right now has a stellar tournament record (in comparison to almost anybody, American, Japanese, or otherwise) and it's definitely more impressive that the (good) tournament record of a guy in one region.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just knock opinions out of the park, eh? Saying "this is how it is, no arguments" is a statement that shouldn't even exist in this thread, unless it's for extremely obvious cases like "is Sheik top 5". Convince us, don't tell us.

lol no.

That's not how Emblem Lord rolls bruh.


And Marth's potential leads to the same place. An ever more oppressive neutral, but STILL lacking consistent kill confirms. STILL lacking grab confirms. STILL lacking hit confirms off safe pokes. A good neutral that leads to...more neutral.

Honestly it's like he is still playing Brawl, since his neutral just resets to a slightly more advantageous position but with no real threat of death outside a really good guess.

 

[meleebrawler]

Q for the Mario/doc players: which neutral B move is better, fireball or vites? And why?

Other than b-reversing (more due to Mario's mobility than the projectile itself) and hitting short characters on the ground, Megavitamins are better in every way. More damage, can't be absorbed, bouncing although a bit of a mixed bag disrupts short hops and makes them tricky to reflect. And that's before getting into the customs which are pretty much strictly superior to Mario's variants.

Safe close range options are pretty much a must for slow, heavy characters. This is one of the more frustrating things about and . Their best options are ftilt () and dtilt () outside of shield grabs and even those aren't that safe. Both their jabs suck too. Compare this to and how vital this is becomes even more obvious. jab isn't too bad but everything else is pretty punishable.

The first hit of Jr.'s jab combo is actually quite fast and safe. It can even jab lock pretty reliably. The rest of the combo, though somewhat punishable and unreliable, is quite damaging especially vs. fastfallers.

Dedede's jab isn't that great as a get-off-me, but jab 2 has ludicrous range. Considering how spacing-heavy D3 is compared to the other fatties it's not entirely surprising he suffers more up close than the likes of DK and Bowser.

 

[Rizen]

He's [Lucas] as good as Ness.

Period.

People for w/e reason just don't know it.

I mean, I see potential in Lucas but what notable results does he have? IDK much about the PKids so it'd be interesting to hear about it. It seems like Ness has stronger zoning and kill options.

 

[TriTails]

Q for the Mario/doc players: which neutral B move is better, fireball or vites? And why?

More of a fan of Fireballs, but that's just me wanting the projectile to hit the opponent themselves instead of bouncing high in the air.

I feel like Vits are better tho. They do better in zoning because hitting them while you're trying to shorthop causes you to stop all vertical mometum (They bounces over you sometimes, so this can be annoying), and shorthops are important in this game. PSing them is also harder due to the tricky bouncing while Mario's just travels slowly and predictably from my experience.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Have we forgot how we rejected pika humans a top 10 character because we decided we can't base it on ESAM's performance alone?

 

[Das Koopa]

To put my point back on track so it doesn't get derailed even further

I'd argue Villager's results do place him above Mario right now if only because Ranai has broken limits with Villager more than Ally has with Mario. The Japanese crowd is really tough and Ranai was cracking ZeRo's armor. Maybe this is matchup dependent, but I don't see Ally or other Mario mains like Anti being able to do the same thing.

In spite of Villager's grab game he has so many good spacing tools that imo make up for it in spades, + his stupid recovery and good edge guard options.

Have we forgot how we rejected pika humans a top 10 character because we decided we can't base it on ESAM's performance alone?

Given how few people player Pikas his performance definitely needs to be a measure and we can't let his Genesis 3 performance rock him too hard considering he had to fight Nairo in that bracket.

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean, I see potential in Lucas but what notable results does he have? IDK much about the PKids so it'd be interesting to hear about it. It seems like Ness has stronger zoning and kill options.

More reliable kill options and (aerial) footsies, sure. But better zoning? Ness's PK Fire is very punishable and only really good for reads (and still isn't that hard to SDI out of unless you land right on top of it). PK Thunder, though generally better than Lucas's is still mainly used in advantage and edgeguarding and not neutral. Lucas has a zair, a much faster PK Fire that eats other projectiles due to having a hurtbox (and made much safer with wavebouncing) and PK Freeze allows him to bait airdodges (Din's Fire fumes with jealousy) thanks to it's really low endlag and fast speed. PK Flash by contrast is pretty much useless.

 

[Vyrnx]

Of course we would still see Rosa as at least top 5-10 without Dabuz. Characters with less results than Dabuzless Rosa, such as Sonic, are still considered somewhere around top 5 because it's obvious that they are really good/have proven to be a top level threat. The only way Dabuzless Rosa would not be considered top 5 would be if people knocked top placements at Umebura, something we've already seen in regards to Rosa, and something we have consistently seen in regards to Villager.

How on earth are there people coming to the competitive impressions thread, saying, "Villager is not top 10," when all of the evidence is against them? The only way Villager wouldn't be considered top 10 would be pure theorycrafting and ignoring the fact that Smash 4 in Japan has been consistently in a Villager main's grasp for months. Of course Ranai is good, but he is a Villager main. He has gotten all of his results utilizing his skills through Villager, only because Villager is entirely capable of capitalizing on skill level and being able to be played optimally against the likes of optimal Sheik, Diddy, ZSS, etc. After months of dominance in a Smash hotbed and then 3rd at G3, still there is, "Villager is not top 10 because [theory]..." If those claims were suspect before, they are outright untrue now.

Also, there is no evidence to back up Lucas being as good as Ness. Even in theory he isn't.