Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[DE235]

On that note, he won KiT16 (~80 entrants). Mostly Wario, but he used Mewtwo too.

Where can I find the videos of it?

 

[Wintropy]

Link just needs a better Jab Imo. He don't have much close range.

This would be so significant. Having a quick and safe option to get the opponent out of his space would be a great contingency if his defences are compromised.

Ganondorf is the same. It's been said before, but a quicker jab (something like Melee or PM Ganondorf's) would give him a decent "go away" option and mean he isn't free in close-range.

Re: Toon Link, I had the honour of fighting one in bracket today, and yeah his bombs are a pain. He's got a very effective mid-range pressure game going on, you have to really be cognisant of the bomb traps when you're approaching in neutral.

 

[JesterJaded]

I agree that he's slept on. I believe the main reason why is because people try playing him like in Brawl, which simply doesn't work. Fair is a great aerial, PK fire is pretty disgusting. His main problem is definitely that he has a hard time getting in. Oh and I'd love a bigger Uair hitbox.

Lucas is a character that likes to play the midrange with a plethora of safe and frustrating pokes similar to other zoners (Tink, Villager, etc.). Cross-ups with Nair and Dair, while not always safe, help decently with this, and Fair is safe when properly spaced. While in most matchups he doesn't exactly have to approach, his CQC game is also pretty decent with good frame data on Dtilt and Jab (frame 3 I think?), and Dtilt combos into grab.

His arguably safest zoning tool (Zair) can also combo into: itself, footstool (some characters), Fair, grab, and Dtilt > grab as far as I know, and Fair when spaced properly at specific percents can setup a Dtilt lock tech chase. Dthrow combos into: Footstool > Dair lock, Nair, Fair, Dair, Bair (CRAZY good at the ledge), and Uair (all aerials), allowing for a variety of mixups. In regards to Nair's SDI, some Lucas mains claim that it's easy for fast fallers to get out at low percents, but the DI can be followed (will be labbing this myself to verify once my Wii U is returned). Hopefully this is true. (It's also easier to follow said DI against characters with tall hitboxes / fatties.)

Dsmash speaks for itself as the most stylish ledge 2-frame option in the game.

I'm still learning Lucas, but that's what I've gathered so far. He's pretty fun and a legit character, imo. Decently balanced compared to the rest of the cast.

 

[TurboLink]

Link just needs a better Jab Imo. He don't have much close range.

Giving Link anything above a frame 5 jab would invalidate a lot of other character's jabs.

 

[Wintropy]

Giving Link anything above a frame 5 jab would invalidate a lot of other character's jab.

Care to explain why?

I don't disagree with you, I'm just wondering.

 

[Solfiner]

Lucas' recovery is interesting as well. You can gimp him during his PK thunder 2 since it doesn't have a big hitbox, but at the same time it doesn't get destroyed by counters like Ness' does. Also Zair is great for recovery mix-ups.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Regarding Link though, what would be the best way to buff him? Just some more aerial mobility or what?

Universally capping jumpsquat frames at 6 frames would help a lot of heavier characters and is something I'd like to see, even as it makes Bowser's Uthrow combos that much easier. Apart from Gale Boomerang being really slow to start up and his Jab being slow I can't think of any other aspect of the character that really looks deficient. Honestly Link's jab needs to be somewhat slow considering how safe stuff like Fair is on shield, though shaving like one frame off would probably be fine.

 

[Mario766]

Giving Link anything above a frame 5 jab would invalidate a lot of other character's jabs.

Having a jab slower than frame 4 is still rather slow in comparsion to frame 1-3 frame jabs.

Link having a frame 5 jab wouldn't do anything.

 

[Y2Kay]

Where can I find the videos of it?

it was streamed by the DRX crew, they haven't posted yet, bt they have a youtube tho

 

[Fatmanonice]

Safe close range options are pretty much a must for slow, heavy characters. This is one of the more frustrating things about and . Their best options are ftilt () and dtilt () outside of shield grabs and even those aren't that safe. Both their jabs suck too. Compare this to and how vital this is becomes even more obvious. jab isn't too bad but everything else is pretty punishable.

 

[TurboLink]

Care to explain why?

I don't disagree with you, I'm just wondering.

Say he had a 2 frame jab. Now his jab beats most jabs in the speed, range/midrange, and close range department. I think some character's don't even have tilts with the range Link's jab has.

For example, with a jab like that Kirby wouldn't be able to do much of anything once he got anywhere near close to Link.

 

[Wintropy]

Say he had a 2 frame jab. Now his jab beats most jabs in the speed, range/midrange, and close range department. I think some character's don't even have tilts with the range Link's jab has.

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think it has to be frame 2 for it to be serviceable. As Heavy said, shaving a frame off of it would be a decent buff without overcompensating.

As it is, it doesn't seem like he can threaten opponents in his space that have better frame data and safer options. I know he's meant to be a zoner / defensive fighter, but a contingency plan isn't a bad investment.

 

[TurboLink]

I see where you're coming from, but I don't think it has to be frame 2 for it to be serviceable. As Heavy said, shaving a frame off of it would be a decent buff without overcompensating.

As it is, it doesn't seem like he can threaten opponents in his space that have better frame data and safer options. I know he's meant to be a zoner / defensive fighter, but a contingency plan isn't a bad investment.

I know. I only said that because of what Baby_Sneak said.

Link just needs a better Jab Imo. He don't have much close range.

He mentioned Link's close range being bad but even with a 5 (or 4.) frame jab he would still lose at close range to character's like Kirby, Captain Falcon, Mario, or Luigi. So I was thinking he meant something faster than 5 frames.

Having a jab slower than frame 4 is still rather slow in comparsion to frame 1-3 frame jabs.

Link having a frame 5 jab wouldn't do anything.

True and you're probably right. But I don't think any of the jabs that come out at 1-3 frames have the exceptional range that Link's jab has.

 

[Wintropy]

Random thought, but it's been on my mind recently: is there a definitive opinion on the Mario / Doc matchup?

I was to my brother (who's picked up Mario and is tearing through brackets with him) about fighting a Doc today, and he said the other guy destroyed him and forced him to go DK. I told him I'd heard a vague notion that Doc wins the matchup, and he seemed surprised. Is there credence to this theory, or is it just nonsense and wishful thinking?

For what it's worth, the theory behind it is that Doc and Mario have similar gameplans (making allowances for nuances in their kit), but Doc's ability to finish stocks more efficiently (especially in terms of edgeguarding) and powerful shorthop / OOS game make it difficult for Mario to get in on him. It sounds very dodgy to me, since Mario's a combo fiend on characters with weak jumps and slow airspeed like Doc and he has multiple ways of gimping Doc without going off-stage, but maybe I'm just ignorant.

Thoughts, everybody?

 

[KakuCP9]

Baby_Sneak

Dair's mostly used a microspacing tool rather than attack which works in tandem nair, his main tool in neutral. Also, mastering b-reverse/wavebounce is a must to fully use Aura Sphere charge, his main way to link to kills (usmash/uair) as well threaten in the neutral (either with the charge hitbox or projectile). While many of his tools seem underwhelming, he still has small toolbox that can be used flexible and unorthodox ways.

 

[S_B]

If you look at Meta Knight's data, it's hard to think that his dash attack > up air > Shuttle Loop KO confirms was anything but intentional. After so many patches with these confirms left untouched, it has to be their intended design.

I hesitate to look at patches not changing something to mean that it was intended. If that were absolutely true, Sakurai must have intended for Bowser taking someone off the ledge with side B to kill both players at once on some stages and kill Bowser first on others, and that just makes no sense.

Not saying you're wrong, per se, just that we can't say "working as intended" on hardly anything. I mean, Sakurai waited over a year after the release of the game to give Bowser a throw follow up. Before then, we would've said things like, "Clearly, Bowser is meant to have a hard time securing kills..."

 

[Fatmanonice]

I don't see how Doc wins the match up. Their close up options are very similar so I don't see how Doc's would give him an edge aside from his Super Punch being a kill option. As for short hopping options, Mario has FLUDD so this could easily throw it off and Mario's usmash still gives him a lot of protection from above and behind. Maybe they're about even on stage but things definitely move in Mario's favor off stage. 60-40 in Mario's favor, perhaps?

 

[S_B]

Top players can definitely redefine how a character is perceived when they show stuff no one's ever considered before in all their "theoretical" discussions, but there's a lot more that goes behind Ranai bringing ZeRo to Game 5 than just Villager potentially being on a similar level as Sheik. General player skill can go well beyond how matchups and tier list positions are seen on paper - this is why you see character specialists routinely threaten to win whole tournaments in many fighting games, not just Smash.

I do agree with examining how characters are used around the world though. More information and ideas are always helpful, especially if people are really serious about getting good with a character and truly advancing their metagame.

Yeah, with more high level noted villagers, I think we'd see people's opinion of him climbing.

I mean, I think villager has potential, but it may just be that Ranai is just that good...

 

[HeavyLobster]

Safe close range options are pretty much a must for slow, heavy characters. This is one of the more frustrating things about and . Their best options are ftilt () and dtilt () outside of shield grabs and even those aren't that safe. Both their jabs suck too. Compare this to and how vital this is becomes even more obvious. jab isn't too bad but everything else is pretty punishable.

Ganondorf has this way worse than any other heavy. His jab is lousy in most every aspect and is basically an inferior tilt. It creates a list of problems in conjunction with a couple of other holes in his game. He gets bodied in most cases if he clanks because of how slow it is, even though he should technically get frame advantage due to high damage output. Sonic is the worst example of this problem. He also doesn't really have options out of spotdodge, which is an issue vs fast chars with good grab games. Also while a couple of his aerials are safe on shield, he often has to roll away afterward due to poor CQC. It also gives him lousy OOS options along with his poor grab range. Jab's damage output is worse than a lot of jab combos that do around 11-12%, it's unsafe on spotdodge, is actually laggier than Dtilt, leads into nothing, and will only kill when sweetspotted at later %s than Ganon should be killing at. It's very close to being an empty moveslot where a decent to good move really needs to be for Ganon to function properly. Link and D3's jabs at least have their uses.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Random thought, but it's been on my mind recently: is there a definitive opinion on the Mario / Doc matchup?

I was to my brother (who's picked up Mario and is tearing through brackets with him) about fighting a Doc today, and he said the other guy destroyed him and forced him to go DK. I told him I'd heard a vague notion that Doc wins the matchup, and he seemed surprised. Is there credence to this theory, or is it just nonsense and wishful thinking?

For what it's worth, the theory behind it is that Doc and Mario have similar gameplans (making allowances for nuances in their kit), but Doc's ability to finish stocks more efficiently (especially in terms of edgeguarding) and powerful shorthop / OOS game make it difficult for Mario to get in on him. It sounds very dodgy to me, since Mario's a combo fiend on characters with weak jumps and slow airspeed like Doc and he has multiple ways of gimping Doc without going off-stage, but maybe I'm just ignorant.

Thoughts, everybody?

their move sets ate basically the same.
It's pretty much 50-50, though the difference in physics and stuff sways it slightly. It's a fun battle of fundamentals.

 

[Das Koopa]

I agree that Ganondorf should have his Melee jab except I'd take it a step further and make it a frame 3-4 jab because he's really awful and needs whatever tools he can possibly get

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I don't see how Doc wins the match up. Their close up options are very similar so I don't see how Doc's would give him an edge aside from his Super Punch being a kill option. As for short hopping options, Mario has FLUDD so this could easily throw it off and Mario's usmash still gives him a lot of protection from above and behind. Maybe they're about even on stage but things definitely move in Mario's favor off stage. 60-40 in Mario's favor, perhaps?

Doc combo game is overall better in this MU since he can break out of most of Mario's combos with up B. Mario can't exactly do the same to since Doc's attacks either deals more hitstun or sends mario at an angle where he can't really break the combo. Doc's KO Ability is slightly stronger too due to his Smash attacks KOing earlier and him having several more KO options that Mario lacks (I.e. Fair, Up B). I would also say that Doc has the edge in edge guarding since his down b covers significantly more options than Mario's and his cape is much easier to land due to its greater range + his aerials and Up B being overall much better for edge guarding.

 

[Rizen]

Buffing Link imo:

If Cloud gets a frame 4 jab, Link deserves a frame 5 jab. His jab combo doesn't cancel into anything guaranteed, does 10 damage total and starts frame 7. Give Link this as a gtfo option.

Link's jumpsquat is 7 frames, make it 5. 7 frames is ridiculous. Those 2 frames go a long way in helping Link bomb combo.

Nair is frame 7, make it 5. Same thing as jab, give Link a gtfo option.

Increase air speed from .88 to .91, same as Palutena.

All these seem like minimal changes but would really help. Link's chaining/combos are almost consistent and only need a little buff to be good. I know people say 'Link needs these slow as his weakness' but seriously, look at Cloud's stats, Pit's, Pacman's, Villager's, Megaman's... Link needs a little help to keep up.

 

[Mario766]

Link getting a frame 5 jumpsquat over other frame 7 jump squats would be stupid unless we're doing a massive overhaul of jump squats in general.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

what about making Link's Nair frame 3 (or 4 if you think that's ********).

 

[Fatmanonice]

Ganondorf has this way worse than any other heavy. His jab is lousy in most every aspect and is basically an inferior tilt. It creates a list of problems in conjunction with a couple of other holes in his game. He gets bodied in most cases if he clanks because of how slow it is, even though he should technically get frame advantage due to high damage output. Sonic is the worst example of this problem. He also doesn't really have options out of spotdodge, which is an issue vs fast chars with good grab games. Also while a couple of his aerials are safe on shield, he often has to roll away afterward due to poor CQC. It also gives him lousy OOS options along with his poor grab range. Jab's damage output is worse than a lot of jab combos that do around 11-12%, it's unsafe on spotdodge, is actually laggier than Dtilt, leads into nothing, and will only kill when sweetspotted at later %s than Ganon should be killing at. It's very close to being an empty moveslot where a decent to good move really needs to be for Ganon to function properly. Link and D3's jabs at least have their uses.

I know but I mentioned the other two because I actually play as them. With , people can simply fall out of your jab leaving you derderderder-ing with your hammer like an idiot and practically waiting for a hard punish if they have a strong projectile. is basically the same problem but somehow even easier to fall out of. Yeah, you can kill with them but both are on the lower end of their reliable kill options because you can usually jump or DI out of it before the killing strike. In my opinion, should have defensive options that are legitimately fearsome. We keep talking about speeding up their attacks but I feel like all four would benefit from more of their moves doing more shield damage. I feel like these characters should make you apprehensive about shielding instead of "just let me sit in shield while my options open up." fsmash not being a shield breaker annoys me to no end, I mean, come on, it even shows this in his introductory trailer.

These are attacks that I think should have stronger shield pressure:

-fsmash, jab, dair, dtilt, clown car explosion (I mean, dude... it's a freaking helicopter falling and exploding on you...)
- gordo, jab, ftilt, dtilt, dsmash
- take your pick, this character should make you paranoid to shield
-all aerials, rest (making it a legitimate shield breaker would be glorious)

Of course, this is just one alternative to speeding up their attacks to help make them defensively better.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I don't see how Doc wins the match up. Their close up options are very similar so I don't see how Doc's would give him an edge aside from his Super Punch being a kill option. As for short hopping options, Mario has FLUDD so this could easily throw it off and Mario's usmash still gives him a lot of protection from above and behind. Maybe they're about even on stage but things definitely move in Mario's favor off stage. 60-40 in Mario's favor, perhaps?

when you use the same moves to win neutral but one gets more reward for it, how doesn't Doc win the matchup? Note that most of Mario's better strings don't work well vs Doc's 3 frame aerials, the fact Mario can't edgeguard Doc reliably when his Nair isn't good vs Mario/Doc UpB, while Doc actually can edgeguard Mario with Dair, and that having a 3 frame KO option that can be done out of shield, in the air, and in Jab cancels (which Doc gets better frame advantage from) is in fact a very big deal. I didn't even mention until now that Doc's Bair (which benefits from a far superior lower and safer short hop) does 14%, which is a Mario combo by itself...

Yeah, how isn't this Doc's advantage?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

when you use the same moves to win neutral but one gets more reward for it, how doesn't Doc win the matchup? Note that most of Mario's better strings don't work well vs Doc's 3 frame aerials, the fact Mario can't edgeguard Doc reliably when his Nair isn't good vs Mario/Doc UpB, while Doc actually can edgeguard Mario with Dair, and that having a 3 frame KO option that can be done out of shield, in the air, and in Jab cancels (which Doc gets better frame advantage from) is in fact a very big deal. I didn't even mention until now that Doc's Bair (which benefits from a far superior lower and safer short hop) does 14%, which is a Mario combo by itself...

Yeah, how isn't this Doc's advantage?

Maybe mobility.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Maybe mobility.

From practical experience, it means little over the fact the Mario ditto, and his matchup vs Doc revolves around Bair spam, and Doc not only inarguably gets more reward for it, he in fact gets to do it more safely due to his short hop height.

Note that the front facing hitbox on Doc Usmash gives him several safe opportunities to dodge and punish certain appoaches in a way Mario can't really replicate unless his Fair wasn't terrible.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Why is Mario going after Doc with nairs offstage when he can ledge camp with fire balls/FLUDD, or wait on the edge with the cape and bair? Mario can just treat Doc like Ness or Falcon offstage and pretend he's ungimpable if he wants to play safe. I feel like there's hardly any reason for Mario to chase Doc offstage. Yes, the possibility of a gimp is still there but Mario really doesn't have to because I feel like his options are just as good if he stays put.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why is Mario going after Doc with nairs offstage when he can ledge camp with fire balls/FLUDD, or wait on the edge with the cape and bair? Mario can just treat Doc like Ness or Falcon offstage and pretend he's ungimpable if he wants to play safe. I feel like there's hardly any reason for Mario to chase Doc offstage. Yes, the possibility of a gimp is still there but Mario really doesn't have to because I feel like his options are just as good if he stays put.

Because you theorycrafted something that actually doesn't work. So yeah, Mario doesn't really take advantage of Doc's recovery because his edgeguard tools are just plain bad.

It actually matters however that Doc Dair is in fact very reliable for beating or trading with Mario UpB because Mario actually will get gimped by that, while he does not have a comparable response. If anyone has advantages offstage, it's Doc.

Either way, Doc wins because he gets more reward on the same moves, and has far more setups for ending the stock in situations Mario can't replicate. Heck, you can kill with Doc Bair sometimes, while Mario basically suffers if he's forced to end stocks with his aerials.

 

[TurboLink]

Because you theorycrafted something that actually doesn't work. So yeah, Mario doesn't really take advantage of Doc's recovery because his edgeguard tools are just plain bad.

It actually matters however that Doc Dair is in fact very reliable for beating or trading with Mario UpB because Mario actually will get gimped by that, while he does not have a comparable response. If anyone has advantages offstage, it's Doc.

How are Mario's edgeguarding tools bad?

 

[A2ZOMG]

How are Mario's edgeguarding tools bad?

Nobody good gets gimped by Mario's specials. Everything Mario can realistically kill you with offstage can simply be avoided by recovering low and teching telegraphed stage spikes.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Because you theorycrafted something that actually doesn't work. So yeah, Mario doesn't really take advantage of Doc's recovery because his edgeguard tools are just plain bad.

In what universe are Mario's edgeguarding tools bad and Doc's recovery is unstoppable? Do you think Mario climbed the competitive ladder from his dthrow options alone? For example, Doc's tornado certainly isn't totally impervious to fireballs and FLUDD or generally get him high enough above the ledge that these options become impractical. If Doc recovers low, he can be bopped out of the tornado by fireballs. Doc's air speed is ranked 41st while Mario's tied for 9th so I don't see how Doc's suddenly this slippery devil who negates Mario offstage.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Don't bother, Fatmanonice

Mario is a bad character.

Smooth Criminal

 

[A2ZOMG]

In what universe are Mario's edgeguarding tools bad and Doc's recovery is unstoppable? Do you think Mario climbed the competitive ladder from his dthrow options alone? For example, Doc's tornado certainly isn't totally impervious to fireballs and FLUDD or generally get him high enough above the ledge that these options become impractical. If Doc recovers low, he can be bopped out of the tornado by fireballs. Doc's air speed is ranked 41st while Mario's tied for 9th so I don't see how Doc's suddenly this slippery devil who negates Mario offstage.

Mario climbed competitively almost entirely because Dthrow and Usmash. FACT.

In a universe with no edgehogging and ledgedrop invincibility, every credible Mario player will tell you he cannot edgeguard crap in this game. This isn't Brawl.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Mario is overrated. He has major issues sealing stocks and is fading as a top threat because of this. He's still a strong character, but he's by no means a dominant one, and while he has enough tools to hang with good characters, he also has distinct flaws that can be avoided with careful play. His edgeguarding is in fact subpar overall, and his aerials can't kill at any reasonable percent. He's a simple character who dominates in unoptimized play but his warts really show as the meta develops and people play more carefully around him. He's good because of frame data + mobility, but has some significant holes in his game. Relying on smash reads to kill isn't a winning recipe, even with smashes as good as Mario. Probably around 15th best character.

 

[san.]

After top 3, I find that everyone afterwards have significant flaws, so pointing out some of Mario's in terms of viability is difficult when it's all relative. Which characters do you think are better than Mario?

 

[FallofBrawl]

Docs tornado alone is better at edgeguarding than anything Mario has. FLUDD and Cape are just used for positional advantage/force awkward situations, but by no means are they useful for gimping/edgeguarding (if not then it's very situational).

 

[Fatmanonice]

*insert Jason Alexander picture here*

That's like saying ZSS is entirely dthrow and boost kick or Sheik is needles and fair or Ness is dthrow and bthrow. Yes, his offstage game is less effective than Brawl but so is almost everyone else's (which is kind of the point, honestly). You also seem to forget that ledge trumping is now a thing and Mario has decent options out of that as well. He's not like or who can uh-oh spaghetti-os all too easily if they go offstage or put themselves in a very vulnerable spot if they goof while edgeguarding like . Like I said, unlike many of these characters, Mario doesn't have to go offstage to have edgeguarding options. I'm not saying he's like but his edgeguarding game isn't exclusive offstage or completely unreliable on it.