Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[|RK|]

Kirby is not even with Sheik. This is a misconception that has been going on for far too long and needs to die.

Kirby having comparable frame data and the ability to copy needles does not do enough to bridge the gap between his and Sheik's mobility. She runs rings around him, camps him, outranges him and is better at killing. To copy needles he has to catch her, which is a massive feat in itself.

Is Kirby Sheik's worst low tier MU? Possibly. Does that mean it's in Kirby's favour? Absolutely not.

IMO, it's not a bad matchup. Maybe slight disadvantage, and according to MikeKirby, even *at best*. Sheik is way faster, sure. But bouncing fish is maybe the scariest thing if you're not (foolishly) chasing her around. Sheik has more options, and at a certain percentage window, the 50/50 is a true confirm.

But even without needles, patience in that matchup goes a long way. Rushing down Sheik is a great way to get wrecked in general. Also, Uthrow Buff helps a lot with killing on stages with platforms. You really don't have to wait for a hard read or chance-based trip-confirm to finish her stock anymore.

If we still had better needles than Sheik, it'd be more likely to be even... But I digress.

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

On High-Tier matchups, I don't think has any bad, bad matchups aside from . Every other matchup against High Tiers, while on their favor, is winnable. Even is quite manageable. Other bad ones (not on their ↑ level) include / ( Peach/Marth/Ike are debatable on my opinion. It's not that much on their favor. 45:55 at most imo). But, aside from that, Kirby is much more than a simple C-Tier or something like that. How does a C-Tier has so many Even matchups? While it's not even against , I feel like this matchup would be much closer if it wasn't for her 50/50s and stuff. One can even Kirbycide against Bouncing Fish is also pretty close (not even too), it isn't polarized around her ladder neither around his crouch. Kirby is greater than most people think.
Kirby is not missing so much now that he has the Kamikaze Up-Throw, and he still has lot of potential. He, along with /,,,,,,, (yup, ZSS) ,,, and are honestly #the most balanced characters in this game. Others are still pretty great, but these ones specifically are so well designed they have nothing that makes them straight out good or bad... maybe a unpopular opinion, but I don't see anything that makes them straight out unbalanced. More like the other characters need some improvement so the matchup is closer. Obviously it's impossible to have all matchups to be even, but they can be close and it will be fine.

 

[Sonicninja115]

M2K was beating Ally's Mario with Cloud. I wonder how well he will do at Pax South.

 

[LancerStaff]

good luck trying to land the uair ladder in ffa

-sakurai 2016

More like good luck landing after the SL puts you into helplessness...

Other bad ones include /...

To me the matchup is interesting because Kirby can actually utilize arrows better then they can.

Basically, the Nspecials have less endlag in the air. Pit and Dark Pit need to use them right out of a fullhop for the reduced endlag, and since you can't FF out of special animations it wastes frames on the way down. Kirby on the other hand can use 'em out of a SH, and since he has more jumps he can fire more in a row before landing. Add in the fact that you land with zero endlag after shooting an arrow in the air instead of the usual 4 or 5, and Kirby becomes a zoning machine, especially with Pit's arrows. Speaking of which, Kirby gets all the usual tricks as well. Using them in advantage, disadvantage, covering recovery... Which is why we go Dark Pit and Electroshock the pink blob.

Not that I think the matchup is even with all this, fast swordie vs slow stumpy puncher favors the swordie, but Kirby can outcamp us just because of a few mechanical differences. Even with Dark Pit's arrows he gets more use out of them Dark Pit ever did. Just have to actually know how to use 'em...

 

[L9999]

If Cloud is truly great as everyone hypes him, I think M2K is the kind of person that will do crazy things with the character if he truly invests in it. Cloud is still a mess right now, so only time will tell.

 

[LRodC]

So Ally wants to switch characters because he was butthurt that he was beat by Cloud despite him only being out a short time?

 

[Wintermelon43]

So Ally wants to switch characters because he was butthurt that he was beat by Cloud despite him only being out a short time?

NOW what's Ally doing?

 

[LRodC]

Also, here's another thing I'm curious about. How come Ranai absolutely lights it up as Villager in Japan and goes toe to toe with ZeRo, one of the best Sheiks in the world at the end of a huge national, and people aren't saying that Villager should be a top 5 character? Just because he's not a rush down doesn't make him not as good.

I think our metagame development is pretty close-minded. We have to see what's going on in other regions too in order to make accurate assumptions of character variety. For example, we just stick DH in bottom tier despite Brood doing well with DH in Japan. Japan is also guilty of the same thing by not sticking Pikachu higher and having Falco and Ike ranked pretty low.

 

[Emblem Lord]

M2K was beating Ally's Mario with Cloud. I wonder how well he will do at Pax South.

Cloud kinda eats mario tho

 

[JesterJaded]

Also, here's another thing I'm curious about. How come Ranai absolutely lights it up as Villager in Japan and goes toe to toe with ZeRo, one of the best Sheiks in the world at the end of a huge national, and people aren't saying that Villager should be a top 5 character? Just because he's not a rush down doesn't make him not as good.

I think our metagame development is pretty close-minded. We have to see what's going on in other regions too in order to make accurate assumptions of character variety. For example, we just stick DH in bottom tier despite Brood doing well with DH in Japan. Japan is also guilty of the same thing by not sticking Pikachu higher and having Falco and Ike ranked pretty low.

Does ZeRo have much experience in the Villager matchup? If he hasn't faced a Villager of Ranai's caliber, that could have contributed to how difficult it was for him to adapt against the character. If you notice, he began to wise up in the last couple of matches to dash grabbing when Villager tried to Lloid.

I feel that we're not jumping the gun and rating Villager top 5 for the same reason we aren't overhyping Toon Link for Hyuga beating Nairo. After finally getting around to watching that match, Nairo was running into WAY too many projectiles he could have avoided. Frustration was clearly getting to him, and that's the last thing you need when dealing with zoners.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Cloud kinda eats mario tho

In neutral, absolutely. Cloud better not **** up with FLUDD on deck, though. Mario gets a clean sequence on a good stage that exploits his disadvantage, he's probably gonna get doused.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Y2Kay]

Does ZeRo have much experience in the Villager matchup? If he hasn't faced a Villager of Ranai's caliber, that could have contributed to how difficult it was for him to adapt against the character. If you notice, he began to wise up in the last couple of matches to dash grabbing when Villager tried to Lloid.

I feel that we're not jumping the gun and rating Villager top 5 for the same reason we aren't overhyping Toon Link for Hyuga beating Nairo. After finally getting around to watching that match, Nairo was running into WAY too many projectiles he could have avoided. Frustration was clearly getting to him, and that's the last thing you need when dealing with zoners.

True, but ZeRo definitely came prepared for Ranai. We all kinda new they where gonna clash eventually.

 

[Funen1]

Also, here's another thing I'm curious about. How come Ranai absolutely lights it up as Villager in Japan and goes toe to toe with ZeRo, one of the best Sheiks in the world at the end of a huge national, and people aren't saying that Villager should be a top 5 character? Just because he's not a rush down doesn't make him not as good.

I think our metagame development is pretty close-minded. We have to see what's going on in other regions too in order to make accurate assumptions of character variety. For example, we just stick DH in bottom tier despite Brood doing well with DH in Japan. Japan is also guilty of the same thing by not sticking Pikachu higher and having Falco and Ike ranked pretty low.

Top players can definitely redefine how a character is perceived when they show stuff no one's ever considered before in all their "theoretical" discussions, but there's a lot more that goes behind Ranai bringing ZeRo to Game 5 than just Villager potentially being on a similar level as Sheik. General player skill can go well beyond how matchups and tier list positions are seen on paper - this is why you see character specialists routinely threaten to win whole tournaments in many fighting games, not just Smash.

I do agree with examining how characters are used around the world though. More information and ideas are always helpful, especially if people are really serious about getting good with a character and truly advancing their metagame.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

On High-Tier matchups, I don't think has any bad, bad matchups aside from . Every other matchup against High Tiers, while on their favor, is winnable. Even is quite manageable. Other bad ones (not on their ↑ level) include / ( Peach/Marth/Ike are debatable on my opinion. It's not that much on their favor. 45:55 at most imo). But, aside from that, Kirby is much more than a simple C-Tier or something like that. How does a C-Tier has so many Even matchups? While it's not even against , I feel like this matchup would be much closer if it wasn't for her 50/50s and stuff. One can even Kirbycide against Bouncing Fish is also pretty close (not even too), it isn't polarized around her ladder neither around his crouch. Kirby is greater than most people think.
Kirby is not missing so much now that he has the Kamikaze Up-Throw, and he still has lot of potential. He, along with /,,,,,,, (yup, ZSS) ,,, and are honestly #the most balanced characters in this game. Others are still pretty great, but these ones specifically are so well designed they have nothing that makes them straight out good or bad... maybe a unpopular opinion, but I don't see anything that makes them straight out unbalanced. More like the other characters need some improvement so the matchup is closer. Obviously it's impossible to have all matchups to be even, but they can be close and it will be fine.

Saying and are worse than confuses me. MK and Yoshi are certainly hard, but they aren't as bad as Sonic.

Against , Kirby has to stay on the ground, shield a lot, and only use tilts. Kirby gets crushed in the air.

Against , Kirby has to g0dstep (best name for crouch walk) and powershield Yoshi's eggs, while being patient and mainly trying to bait yoshi's aerials. Once you approach him, stay in his face. What he'll want to do is reset and get you to approach again, so capitalize on that. I got the pleasure of facing omni's Yoshi in multiple friendlies, and learned the MU that way.

however, he's tough. Staying low doesn't do anything. We have to play extremely patient, but we can't bait his fast moves, combo him at all because of up-b (at least we can read+punish Yoshi's n-air), he can do mostly everything safely because we don't have the mobility or range to punish him, and more. The MU is hell and a half.

Also, doesn't beat us because of kill moves. I already explained this before. She bodies us safety wise, outranges and outspeeds us, outcamps us, and literally bodies our recovery.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Did Rosalina cease to be a bad matchup for Kirby or am I misremembering stuff?

 

[Purin a.k.a. José]

however, he's tough. Staying low doesn't do anything. We have to play extremely patient, but we can't bait his fast moves, combo him at all because of up-b (at least we can read+punish Yoshi's n-air), he can do mostly everything safely because we don't have the mobility or range to punish him, and more. The MU is hell and a half.

Also, doesn't beat us because of kill moves. I already explained this before. She bodies us safety wise, outranges and outspeeds us, outcamps us, and literally bodies our recovery.

About Sonic: I know the MU is bad (Lately I haven't played Kirby against any Sonic tbh, only Ness), but it still doesn't seem that destructive like the other two. Not like the matchup is less bad, it's just a little more... tolerant? Sonic has no kill tools such as Yoshi/MK in the sense you can play it slow against him to win, delaying your death and dodging his setups. It is way easier said than done though.
About Sheik: I know about all this stuff, but sincerely I don't see these points as defining as her setups. Many characters outrange us and we win the MU. Her Needles, while slow the pace of the match, can be dodged (forcing her to approach.). But I can't disagree with speed and edgeguarding. It is a pain. But, I cannot deny I have a much easier time with Kirby against Sheik than as Ness/Puff. It just seems better.

Did Rosalina cease to be a bad matchup for Kirby or am I misremembering stuff?

It still is, I actually forgot about it XD Rosalina is a pain too.

 

[Wintermelon43]

On High-Tier matchups, I don't think has any bad, bad matchups aside from . Every other matchup against High Tiers, while on their favor, is winnable. Even is quite manageable. Other bad ones (not on their ↑ level) include / ( Peach/Marth/Ike are debatable on my opinion. It's not that much on their favor. 45:55 at most imo). But, aside from that, Kirby is much more than a simple C-Tier or something like that. How does a C-Tier has so many Even matchups? While it's not even against , I feel like this matchup would be much closer if it wasn't for her 50/50s and stuff. One can even Kirbycide against Bouncing Fish is also pretty close (not even too), it isn't polarized around her ladder neither around his crouch. Kirby is greater than most people think.
Kirby is not missing so much now that he has the Kamikaze Up-Throw, and he still has lot of potential. He, along with /,,,,,,, (yup, ZSS) ,,, and are honestly #the most balanced characters in this game. Others are still pretty great, but these ones specifically are so well designed they have nothing that makes them straight out good or bad... maybe a unpopular opinion, but I don't see anything that makes them straight out unbalanced. More like the other characters need some improvement so the matchup is closer. Obviously it's impossible to have all matchups to be even, but they can be close and it will be fine.

• is our worst matchup, Meta Knight and Yoshi are better matchups (but still bad) than him
  
• isn't bad, I think this is even. Cloud and Toon Link are bad though
  
• Is easily even, we can crouch under a lot of stuff, and we can actually do good aganist her in the ground. Air can be bad though.
  

 

[Kofu]

Luigi was almost unwinnable until he got nerfed, but he's still probably our worst MU (maybe after Sonic) due to his range and frame data advantage, along with his projectile and good kill power. I make it seem a lot better than it is.

Luigi

range

?????????

"Luigi" and "range" are not two words I usually see in the same sentence. About the only two of his moves that have more range than they should are Cyclone and FAir. BAir has good range, so does USmash and... that's about it?

I'm not really qualified to talk about the Kirby/Luigi MU but surely range isn't one of the biggest problems that Kirby faces in it? Not with those gigantic feet, anyway.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

If any of you saw the 3 seriously long(but cool) video of devin3000 and Mike, they say that it's possible Rosa is even for Kirby, but likely not.
Mike also said ZSS was evenish for pre-patch Kirby and could be better. Well we got one of the best kill throws, so.....

Idk what others think, but from what I can remember reading, some Yoshi mains say their character is actually not that difficult to truly fight if you play the MU properly, so if we do, what would it be like? Tough and annoying most likely. Doable? Possibly.
Shiek....I don't know, its definitely not our worst, and we are capable of fighting her......still wish I knew what Mike thinks of it....

Actually @Smash G 0 D, what can you say for our little puffball? Idk if your on often or you have time, but if you can, it'd be cool.

 

[Y2Kay]

Is a breeze when I play as greninja. We're so much faster and camp him really well. Can get some nasty combos on us but we never need to get close to him anyway.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

I'm going to link FOW's personal tier list here for a discussion point I've been thinking of.

While I don't agree with his personal estimation of Ryu, that's something I want to talk about.

I often see Ryu mentioned as being a top 5 character, but it seems like that's more based on theory and potential than his results, at least compared to the other characters people put around him.

The two main people that pull the best results for him are Trela and 9B (DJ Jack has some quite respectable placements as well though 33rd at Genesis, 25th at MLG). Trela's Set to Game 5 against Nairo at STR (and third place finish) may have been one of Ryu's first big breaks in NA, but that tournament was missing a bunch of top level talent. 17th at MLG, outplaced by things like Reflex's Wario, Samsora's Peach, Fatality's Falco. 17th at Genesis is good, but then you've got the other Ryu god 9B going out at 49th. 9th at big house is definitely concrete, 9th at Paragon but outplaced by a Ness and another different Peach (Slayerz)

9B often pulls top 8, but so does Earth's pit etc. With the way the Umebras seem to often have the same players attending each time, doesn't it get to the point where, like many locals, you're playing a bit more against the player than the character? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I also feel like some people might not be away of Ryu's weaknesses when estimating him. Ryu's frame data is amazing, but his range is actually one fist short. He keeps his hitboxes rather close to the body, what you see is what you get (not so for Dsmash and Ftilt, incredibly true for nair)

Additionally, True Shoryuken is an amazing killing ability. But outside of that Ryu actually relatively has some trouble KOing, because the Knockback growth on his attacks is awful. If he can't get in range for the Shoryuken, he's killing with bair, heavy Jab 1, dthrow, heavy utilt, or uair around 140%+ (I forget when Fsmash kills).

 

[arbustopachon]

Sup with greninja and olimar being so low? I mean seriously theres no way Zard, roy, marth and co are better than them.
Im guessing order it's not important. but still...

 

[FullMoon]

Kirby can be a pretty annoying MU when he gets our shurikens though, just that can change a lot in how the match goes.

It's probably still a bad MU for Kirby though. I know there was one Nebulous where Venia beat both Mike and devin through it.

Poor guy can never get through JohnNumbers though lol

 

[TurboLink]

I'm going to link FOW's personal tier list here for a discussion point I've been thinking of.

*Sees Link in D-tier*

I'm going to link FOW's personal tier list here for a discussion point I've been thinking of.

While I don't agree with his personal estimation of Ryu, that's something I want to talk about.

I often see Ryu mentioned as being a top 5 character, but it seems like that's more based on theory and potential than his results, at least compared to the other characters people put around him.

The two main people that pull the best results for him are Trela and 9B (DJ Jack has some quite respectable placements as well though 33rd at Genesis, 25th at MLG). Trela's Set to Game 5 against Nairo at STR (and third place finish) may have been one of Ryu's first big breaks in NA, but that tournament was missing a bunch of top level talent. 17th at MLG, outplaced by things like Reflex's Wario, Samsora's Peach, Fatality's Falco. 17th at Genesis is good, but then you've got the other Ryu god 9B going out at 49th. 9th at big house is definitely concrete, 9th at Paragon but outplaced by a Ness and another different Peach (Slayerz)

9B often pulls top 8, but so does Earth's pit etc. With the way the Umebras seem to often have the same players attending each time, doesn't it get to the point where, like many locals, you're playing a bit more against the player than the character? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I also feel like some people might not be away of Ryu's weaknesses when estimating him. Ryu's frame data is amazing, but his range is actually one fist short. He keeps his hitboxes rather close to the body, what you see is what you get (not so for Dsmash and Ftilt, incredibly true for nair)

Additionally, True Shoryuken is an amazing killing ability. But outside of that Ryu actually relatively has some trouble KOing, because the Knockback growth on his attacks is awful. If he can't get in range for the Shoryuken, he's killing with bair, heavy Jab 1, dthrow, heavy utilt, or uair around 140%+ (I forget when Fsmash kills).

Maybe we just need to give Ryu some more time.

 

[Djent]

17th at MLG, outplaced by things like Reflex's Wario, Samsora's Peach, Fatality's Falco.

>

But in all seriousness, I don't think Ryu has reached his full potential yet. It's clear that he struggles in a few matchups (Villager, Sonic, maybe Diddy too). But even from the flashes of greatness, I think a strong case for top 5 can be made. I mean it's not like there are lots of characters doing better. In fact, come to think of it...

Spoiler: Results > Ryu

Those are the characters that seem to be doing better than Ryu is right now. Of those, I'm not sure Sonic/MK belong above him only because their aggregate MUs against Sheik/ZSS seem worse (Ryu does pretty well vs. both). But time will tell.

 

[AnEventHorizon]

​

*Sees Link in D-tier*

A reminder that FOW said:

"this list is based off my exp. with the character, overall options they have, and results. Was hard to make, but this is IMO''

Since he likely doesnt have experience with Link and Link doesnt have good national results.. yeah.

Djent ah, the elusive n.

 

[ligersandtigons]

Sup with greninja and olimar being so low? I mean seriously theres no way Zard, roy, marth and co are better than them.
Im guessing order it's not important. but still...

In the replies to his tweet, FOW basically says he's not impressed with greninja's neutral and that his aerials have start up so they're easy to challenge in the air

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

?????????

"Luigi" and "range" are not two words I usually see in the same sentence. About the only two of his moves that have more range than they should are Cyclone and FAir. BAir has good range, so does USmash and... that's about it?

I'm not really qualified to talk about the Kirby/Luigi MU but surely range isn't one of the biggest problems that Kirby faces in it? Not with those gigantic feet, anyway.

I didn't want to start ranting or anything, but "range" I mean more like out-spacing. He has faster moves that cover a lot of our options, while keeping good power. His f-air and b-air are two moves Kirby has a hard time doing anything to, because of their good range and speed.

One of the things that makes Luigi a tough MU is that we can't take advantage of his weakness. His bad mobility cant be taken advantage of because ours is also bad. We can't punish it, and if we try his superior frame data and kill power get to us. He also forces us to approach, which sucks. Duck is useless, fireball beats inhale, and he kills us for free (50/50s and good power, which Kirby has a hard time avoiding). One more big thing is his floatiness and slideyness. We can't combo him at all, barely any followups off of anything, even d-tilt stops working at 20%.

 

[JesterJaded]

I'm surprised to see FOW rank Lucas so high / behind the Pits / above the likes of DK, Yoshi, and Toon Link. Has he had much experience with / labbed the character?

 

[TDK]

I'm going to link FOW's personal tier list here for a discussion point I've been thinking of.

While I don't agree with his personal estimation of Ryu, that's something I want to talk about.

I often see Ryu mentioned as being a top 5 character, but it seems like that's more based on theory and potential than his results, at least compared to the other characters people put around him.

The two main people that pull the best results for him are Trela and 9B (DJ Jack has some quite respectable placements as well though 33rd at Genesis, 25th at MLG). Trela's Set to Game 5 against Nairo at STR (and third place finish) may have been one of Ryu's first big breaks in NA, but that tournament was missing a bunch of top level talent. 17th at MLG, outplaced by things like Reflex's Wario, Samsora's Peach, Fatality's Falco. 17th at Genesis is good, but then you've got the other Ryu god 9B going out at 49th. 9th at big house is definitely concrete, 9th at Paragon but outplaced by a Ness and another different Peach (Slayerz)

9B often pulls top 8, but so does Earth's pit etc. With the way the Umebras seem to often have the same players attending each time, doesn't it get to the point where, like many locals, you're playing a bit more against the player than the character? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I also feel like some people might not be away of Ryu's weaknesses when estimating him. Ryu's frame data is amazing, but his range is actually one fist short. He keeps his hitboxes rather close to the body, what you see is what you get (not so for Dsmash and Ftilt, incredibly true for nair)

Additionally, True Shoryuken is an amazing killing ability. But outside of that Ryu actually relatively has some trouble KOing, because the Knockback growth on his attacks is awful. If he can't get in range for the Shoryuken, he's killing with bair, heavy Jab 1, dthrow, heavy utilt, or uair around 140%+ (I forget when Fsmash kills).

Why on earth are Bowser jr, Lucario and Luigi so high?

 

[Kofu]

I didn't want to start ranting or anything, but "range" I mean more like out-spacing. He has faster moves that cover a lot of our options, while keeping good power. His f-air and b-air are two moves Kirby has a hard time doing anything to, because of their good range and speed.

One of the things that makes Luigi a tough MU is that we can't take advantage of his weakness. His bad mobility cant be taken advantage of because ours is also bad. We can't punish it, and if we try his superior frame data and kill power get to us. He also forces us to approach, which sucks. Duck is useless, fireball beats inhale, and he kills us for free (50/50s and good power, which Kirby has a hard time avoiding). One more big thing is his floatiness and slideyness. We can't combo him at all, barely any followups off of anything, even d-tilt stops working at 20%.

I figured it wasn't straight-up range, since neither character has great range. I also don't know a lot about how either character plays optimally although Kirby is a lot more natural for me for whatever reason.

Just the way it was initially put made me scratch my head.

 

[DanGR]

We have no clue what any of his tiers mean, or how much results and theory impact each character's placing. Don't read too much into it guys.

 

[Illusion.]

Greninja pretty much invalidates our beloved flying lizard

Nah, it's 45:55 at worst for Charizard.

 

[Phan7om]

I asked FOW about Kirby's placement on his tier list and he told me it wasnt as much about results as it is the potential he sees in the character... which is why he put him over characters like Peach, Yoshi, or ROB. Which from my experience, quite of few people believe the same thing. Imo, its hard to base characters off of "potential", since every character has "potential", and I cant wrap my head around Kirby being that good with "potential" alone with no backup.

Thoughts?

 

[Y2Kay]

I'm going to link FOW's personal tier list here for a discussion point I've been thinking of.

While I don't agree with his personal estimation of Ryu, that's something I want to talk about.

I often see Ryu mentioned as being a top 5 character, but it seems like that's more based on theory and potential than his results, at least compared to the other characters people put around him.

The two main people that pull the best results for him are Trela and 9B (DJ Jack has some quite respectable placements as well though 33rd at Genesis, 25th at MLG). Trela's Set to Game 5 against Nairo at STR (and third place finish) may have been one of Ryu's first big breaks in NA, but that tournament was missing a bunch of top level talent. 17th at MLG, outplaced by things like Reflex's Wario, Samsora's Peach, Fatality's Falco. 17th at Genesis is good, but then you've got the other Ryu god 9B going out at 49th. 9th at big house is definitely concrete, 9th at Paragon but outplaced by a Ness and another different Peach (Slayerz)

9B often pulls top 8, but so does Earth's pit etc. With the way the Umebras seem to often have the same players attending each time, doesn't it get to the point where, like many locals, you're playing a bit more against the player than the character? Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I also feel like some people might not be away of Ryu's weaknesses when estimating him. Ryu's frame data is amazing, but his range is actually one fist short. He keeps his hitboxes rather close to the body, what you see is what you get (not so for Dsmash and Ftilt, incredibly true for nair)

Additionally, True Shoryuken is an amazing killing ability. But outside of that Ryu actually relatively has some trouble KOing, because the Knockback growth on his attacks is awful. If he can't get in range for the Shoryuken, he's killing with bair, heavy Jab 1, dthrow, heavy utilt, or uair around 140%+ (I forget when Fsmash kills).

the fact he thinks charizard is better than greninja and Luigi is top 10 makes this tier list pretty much invalid to me. It's really hard to make a tier list that disagrees with both theory and results. This is the worst tier list I have ever seen in my life. Period.

Greninja is nearly bottom 10


Huuuuuuuuuh????!?!!?!1?!!!

 

[apparently fuz]

This is the worst tier list I have ever seen in my life. Period.

You haven't seen Vinnie's tier list then.

 

[arbustopachon]

Perhaps i overrate greninja, but i really don't see how Charizard can ever return to neutral in this matchup. greninja's amazing vertical movility can easily bait any of our mixups forcing us to try to reset to the ledge.
offstage he has the tools to gimp us, hidro pump bodies fly and flare blitz, and water shuriken is really annoying for zard.
On neutral we struggle to open him up for our strings, and jab2 mixups don't really work too well on him untill high percents. His fall speed allows him to just di towards the ground and block were he can bait and punish a grab.
Maybe he doesn't invalidate zard but imo its an iffy matchup for us.
I guess i have to learn this matchup better tho.

 

[Y2Kay]

You haven't seen Vinnie's tier list then.

Let's be real here does that even count as a tier list?

 

[Solfiner]

Shulk being under Palutena and ONE spot above JIgglypuff ignores his potential and makes me cry inside.

 

[FallofBrawl]

I wanna come back to read interesting theorycraft on character viability and have it backed up with results. Instead I see people crying and meme jerking about some player's tier list.

Please.

Based on my experience with this character (literally 3 games).


Let's talk about Zard, probably the best Oos options for a heavy. Jab jab confirms to up b for late% kills. His hurtbox isn't actually that fat. Great walking/running speed. Slew of super armour options and 2 mid air jumps to escape juggle situations. Best killing upthrow (stage dependent), poking tools in ftilt, dtilt, and flamethrower. SHAC nair and fair. I'm pretty sure bair confirms into an unescapable dair if air dodged. I admit his fair strings would be pretty dumb if he had higher air mobility. Why does no one play this character?