Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[S_B]

I'm not going to lie, MK is about as oppressive towards weaker fighters, especially heavies, as Sheik and ZSS.

MK may actually be fine without his ladder confirm if ZSS and Sheik weren't as oppressive as they are.

He's a character that's designed around having an okay neutral but an amazing edgeguarding game (basically the opposite of Cloud), but good luck edgeguaring either Sheik or ZSS so it's no wonder he needs the ladder confirm to do well against either one.

 

[JesterJaded]

I'm not going to lie, MK is about as oppressive towards weaker fighters, especially heavies, as Sheik and ZSS.

To be fair, I don't think MK invalidates anyone's neutral as much as Sheik or ZSS.

Edit: 'd

 

[S_B]

To be fair, I don't think MK invalidates anyone's neutral as much as Sheik or ZSS.

Yeah, MK at least needs to approach to make anything happen, and he has no way of opening up his opponent to vulnerability like ZSS does.

 

[Y2Kay]

Wait, are you guys saying MK doesn't body heavies? Huuuuh?!

 

[TurboLink]

Wait, are you guys saying MK doesn't body heavies? Huuuuh?!

I imagine it's very easy for him to up air, up air, up air, up air, and then up special them into oblivion.

 

[JesterJaded]

Wait, are you guys saying MK doesn't body heavies? Huuuuh?!

Not at all, just that against MK some heavies have a semblance of playing the neutral game whereas against Sheik or ZSS they can't... well, play anything, really. The sheer amount of zoning, safety, superior reward / punishes, superior disadvantage / advantage, smaller hitboxes, better cqc, better offstage games, etc. is overwhelming across the board. I'll take my chances getting slightly less wrecked by the three foot star warrior.

 

[Y2Kay]

Not at all, just that against MK some heavies have a semblance of playing the neutral game whereas against Sheik or ZSS they can't... well, play anything, really. The sheer amount of zoning, safety, superior reward / punishes, superior disadvantage / advantage, smaller hitboxes, better cqc, better offstage games, etc. is overwhelming across the board. I'll take my chances getting slightly less wrecked by the three foot star warrior.

tbh MK and zero suit is interchangible for me when I play as . I mean it is true but the difference is just neglibile from my view.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I feel like fox would slay if sheik didn't exist. That's the main thing that's holding him back.

In a metagame without Sheik / ZSS, Rosalina would be quite dominant. That'd be worse for Fox than the current status quo.

 

[adom4]

Wait, are you guys saying MK doesn't body heavies? Huuuuh?!

Maybe it's just me but at least for Dorf i don't fear MK nearly as much as Sheik or even ZSS, at least i feel like i can kinda contest with him in neutral.

 

[JesterJaded]

tbh MK and zero suit is interchangible for me when I play as . I mean it is true but the difference is just neglibile from my view.

I admittedly don't know much about Zard, but the main benefit against MK compared to ZSS is that you're not forced to approach on his terms, allowing you to play safe and respect the ladder confirm. It might be negligible counterplay, but better is always preferable on a strictly matchup basis.

Edit: plus, in a hypothetical world where Sheik and ZSS don't exist, I doubt we'd see an influx of 30+ MKs at nationals like we see from the current Sheik bandwagon on account of his neutral, so the matchup won't be as reoccurring as the gateway queens currently are to massively oppress heavyweights. But that's just my opinion.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I can't believe I missed the bulk of the heavy debate. Well I think I can still contribute.

If we look at other fighting games and compare common strengths and weaknesses, we notice that

Strengths:
Beastly normals
A GTFO move
Armor on some setup attacks
Better range on normals
Lenient health
High damage output
Some good pokes
Satisfying to win with
Crowd favorite
"Simpler to use"

Weaknesses:
They are combo food
Mediocre to bad frame data
Huge hurtboxes
THEY ARE COMBO FOOD
A hard time to approach outside of jump in approaches
Usually no projectile (except sentinel really)
COMBO FOOD!
They really don't have combos of their own and rely on one or two sparse hits to hopefully setup something
COMBO FOOD ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Must rely on defensive tactics yet the frame data doesn't allow them to do so
Their shields are by in large harder to use to actually protect yourself as you usually find yourself shielding for your NEUTRAL position
Rushdowns eat the up
COMBO FOOD (ಥ_ಥ)
Easy chip damage
Have to play linearly and must have a punish on fleek to even have any success
IMO to win with a heavy, ur opponent must mess up first which isn't a strong or great thing to rely on
COMBO FOOD. ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°
Simpler to use as ur game plan was made linear so u play predictable.

The problem with SMASH is the heavies in this game have all the weaknesses listed but seem to lack the strengths. DK has great normals, DECENT NOT HIGH DMG output, a lack of GTFO move, higher mobility, lenient health in terms of weight (a double edge sword); blah blah blah. The reason I use DK is because he is or was considered the best giant in the game for a while. The truth is though, Bowser is the ONLY giant to have the strengths and weaknesses I listed and he STILL WAS LISTED AS GARBAGE FOR A BIT. For Bowser to get good they had to increase his mobility (from previous iterations) and then give him a grab confirm. Apparently giving a character like that a grab confirm is all that's needed for the character to get better, but it doesn't help with theain AMD core problem they have. The problem they have is they get zoned, they get rushed down, a meh CQC, and get combos that deal tons of damage. A grab confirm won't alleviate that at all. I see people say things to the extent that characters are supposed to have weaknesses..... But that's because they design characters to fail IMO. Snake, KD3, and Sentinel are the biggest giants to be considered to be high tier that really messed with the meta. Snake and Sentinel are dedicated Zoners that betrayed the prototypical midrange brawler giants were. They still had weaknesses like other giants, but they strived upon having a better design. If ur held back by the developer's design instead of ur personal skill or the character's SPECIFIC weaknesses, then that is kinda silly.

TL;DR
Design will never allow giants to succeed and giant mains should be OK with that even if it is silly. (Even big body main KBR took EVO 2015 with just big bodies in UMvC3).

 

[Amadeus9]

The big issue right now for MK players is that navigating his neutral against the other top tiers is really, really tricky, especially against Sheik. If you don't have to be too concerned with how you play your neutral, i.e. by playing against fighters with weaker neutral than Sheik, then playing MK isn't very hard at all. You just play opportunistic and don't drop your combos. (which isn't that hard)

You take away that difficulty and then the fighter becomes braindead

Part of why im ok with sheik being the way she is, she keeps the scrublife mks in check, because damn, do a lot of people play sheik.

 

[Rawbinator]

Maybe it's just me but at least for Dorf i don't fear MK nearly as much as Sheik or even ZSS, at least i feel like i can kinda contest with him in neutral.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaZrfTqKSmE

Salena vs. Pon. It seems to me Ganon can do quite well as long as he avoids the MK combo (that game 2 though...).

What could Salena do? Maybe more edgeguarding?

 

[AvengerV]

I just noticed that if didn't exist this game wouldn't have a "Best Character" The only two established best characters are Sheik and ZSS and without them it would be tough to decide who #1 is. #3 in the game currently is subjective because so many people are saying different things.

 

[JesterJaded]

I just noticed that if didn't exist this game wouldn't have a "Best Character" The only two established best characters are Sheik and ZSS and without them it would be tough to decide who #1 is. #3 in the game currently is subjective because so many people are saying different things.

I feel like this has a lot to do with ZeRo and Nairo's consistent placings, whereas the characters below them tend to be all over the place to accurately gauge where they are on the tier lists. Personally I'm banking on Rosaluma, MK, and Diddy (not necessarily in that order) being the hypothetical top 3 here.

 

[Tizio Random]

I just noticed that if didn't exist this game wouldn't have a "Best Character" The only two established best characters are Sheik and ZSS and without them it would be tough to decide who #1 is. #3 in the game currently is subjective because so many people are saying different things.

I would say that at the top it would be something like Rosalina > MK > Diddy (I don't know if it does really good against Meta Knight but I know it does have a hard time against Rosa) like a RPS thing. I agree with that fact that a number 1 wouldn't be easy to point out.

EDIT: 'd lmao

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Man Li Gi

You should probably be clearer about what Sent you're talking about. MvC2 Sent was beyond godlike (in all respects in that game, too. Point, battery, AND anchor); CotA and MvC3/UMvC3 Sent, not so much.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Amadeus9]

I would say that at the top it would be something like Rosalina > MK > Diddy (I don't know if it does really good against Meta Knight but I know it does have a hard time against Rosa) like a RPS thing. I agree with that fact that a number 1 wouldn't be easy to point out.

EDIT: 'd lmao

Other way around! Rosa > Diddy > MK > Rosa

In terms of RPS

 

[AvengerV]

I feel like this has a lot to do with ZeRo and Nairo's consistent placings, whereas the characters below them tend to be all over the place to accurately gauge where they are on the tier lists. Personally I'm banking on Rosaluma, MK, and Diddy (not necessarily in that order) being the hypothetical top 3 here.

Yeah I agree with that if didn't exist #1 would probably be or

 

[Man Li Gi]

Man Li Gi

You should probably be clearer about what Sent you're talking about. MvC2 Sent was beyond godlike (in all respects in that game, too. Point, battery, AND anchor); CotA and MvC3/UMvC3 Sent, not so much.

Smooth Criminal

Sentinel was too strong in MvC2. They toned him down and he still is good in UMvC3.

 

[Tizio Random]

Other way around! Rosa > Diddy > MK > Rosa

In terms of RPS

Yeah, my bad, in my language we really don't use this "notation" so I got confuse.
However, as far as ATs goes in this game, didn't Mr R use some PPs during combos with Sheik with quite success? I think it won't be a long time to more players adding those to their game.

 

[Nobie]

I've been thinking about why ZSS is a top character and how she fights versus the heavies of Smash 4. If you look at Sheik, outside of really good frame data she doesn't really have any one overwhelming advantage. Bouncing fish is a decent kill move whose strength is more in its versatility. The down throw 50/50 is, by itself, nowhere near as scary as Ding Dong. Even Needles on a lesser character wouldn't be that bad. In contrast, I believe that the central reason why ZSS is considered so strong IS boost kick. It skews the risk/reward ratio sharply in her favor.

That's not to say ZSS is hopeless without Boost Kick. She still has a Frame 1 Jab, crazy mobility, etc. However, if you watch Nairo fight any of the other top players when Boost Kick starts losing its effectiveness, he has to be extremely creative to land kills through clever use of spikes, well-placed back airs, and what-not. Most importantly, without Boost Kick ZSS kills at pretty normal percents, and her ability to just instantly turn around a stock is reduced.

So why is this a problem for fatties? Well, in addition to getting comboed to high heaven through up airs, Boost Kick kills heavies almost as easily as it kills light weights. Their advantage isn't just neutralized because they're combo fodder, it's eradicated because all of that weight doesn't even matter when they're being juggled to the ceiling at low percents. If heavies are to fight more comfortably against ZSS and characters like her, this really shouldn't ever happen, unless the character is designed with enough weaknesses to let a tool this powerful be in place.

That said, I think removing ZSS's Boost Kick as a viable kill option would be too much, and I don't mind it getting early kills against lighter characters because that should be one of the penalties for weighing less in Smash. Interestingly, looking at Boost Kick's frame data, all hits but the last one are weight-based, and I wonder if it wouldn't be so bad if the last hit was changed to weight-based knockback as well. If not that, then I think Boost Kick should be tuned so that it is still a viable kill option on heavy characters near the top of the screen, but at a more reasonable percent like, maybe 100-110%, while still retaining the ability to take out lightweights at significantly lower percents.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Sentinel was too strong in MvC2. They toned him down and he still is good in UMvC3.

No he's not, lol. He is a cumbersome shadow of the high-flying, normal chip-dealing monster that he was in MvC2. There's a reason why they call Sent "whackbot" in MvC3, and it's not because he's good.

KBR winning EVO was a combination of KBR just being KBR and running a team that synergizes well with Drone assist. That is literally it. There are wayyyyyyyyyy better anchors and assists that accompany them, especially when X-Factor exists.

Smooth Criminal

 

[meleebrawler]

This may seem a bit far-fetched, but what if there was damage scaling for combos like in TMNT: Smash-Up? I know there's already staling, but this could help further bridge the gap of damage output between some of the top tiers and less-combo-oriented characters. The game is already capable of recognizing true combos (even if not 100% reliable).

 

[Jams.]

I've been thinking about why ZSS is a top character and how she fights versus the heavies of Smash 4. If you look at Sheik, outside of really good frame data she doesn't really have any one overwhelming advantage. Bouncing fish is a decent kill move whose strength is more in its versatility. The down throw 50/50 is, by itself, nowhere near as scary as Ding Dong. Even Needles on a lesser character wouldn't be that bad. In contrast, I believe that the central reason why ZSS is considered so strong IS boost kick. It skews the risk/reward ratio sharply in her favor.

That's not to say ZSS is hopeless without Boost Kick. She still has a Frame 1 Jab, crazy mobility, etc. However, if you watch Nairo fight any of the other top players when Boost Kick starts losing its effectiveness, he has to be extremely creative to land kills through clever use of spikes, well-placed back airs, and what-not. Most importantly, without Boost Kick ZSS kills at pretty normal percents, and her ability to just instantly turn around a stock is reduced.

So why is this a problem for fatties? Well, in addition to getting comboed to high heaven through up airs, Boost Kick kills heavies almost as easily as it kills light weights. Their advantage isn't just neutralized because they're combo fodder, it's eradicated because all of that weight doesn't even matter when they're being juggled to the ceiling at low percents. If heavies are to fight more comfortably against ZSS and characters like her, this really shouldn't ever happen, unless the character is designed with enough weaknesses to let a tool this powerful be in place.

That said, I think removing ZSS's Boost Kick as a viable kill option would be too much, and I don't mind it getting early kills against lighter characters because that should be one of the penalties for weighing less in Smash. Interestingly, looking at Boost Kick's frame data, all hits but the last one are weight-based, and I wonder if it wouldn't be so bad if the last hit was changed to weight-based knockback as well. If not that, then I think Boost Kick should be tuned so that it is still a viable kill option on heavy characters near the top of the screen, but at a more reasonable percent like, maybe 100-110%, while still retaining the ability to take out lightweights at significantly lower percents.

I believe that in this game, weight based knockback and percent based knockback are mutually exclusive (source). Weight based knockback is usually used for linking hits to ensure they work on all characters and regardless of percent (barring rage). Thus, it wouldn't be possible to balance a kill move with weight based knockback because it would kill someone at 0% as well as it would at 999%.

 

[|RK|]

This may seem a bit far-fetched, but what if there was damage scaling for combos like in TMNT: Smash-Up? I know there's already staling, but this could help further bridge the gap of damage output between some of the top tiers and less-combo-oriented characters. The game is already capable of recognizing true combos (even if not 100% reliable).

All of these changes would screw Kirby so hard, lol

 

[LancerStaff]

This may seem a bit far-fetched, but what if there was damage scaling for combos like in TMNT: Smash-Up? I know there's already staling, but this could help further bridge the gap of damage output between some of the top tiers and less-combo-oriented characters. The game is already capable of recognizing true combos (even if not 100% reliable).

If it was simply switched on right now, no other changes, probably. (If I understand what it is...)

Buuut they wouldn't let such a mechanic exist without "balancing" it their way and we'd be back at square one with another mechanic that just muddles combo percents.

IMO, it'd be better if staleness worked differently. Right now it only hurts kill moves and helps combo moves. If instead knockback increased for certain moves it'd be a lot easier to control what does and doesn't combo... And as an added bonus they'd have a new gimmick to toy around with, like making certain moves explicitly combo longer or kill quicker the more they're used.

 

[S_B]

That said, I think removing ZSS's Boost Kick as a viable kill option would be too much, and I don't mind it getting early kills against lighter characters because that should be one of the penalties for weighing less in Smash. Interestingly, looking at Boost Kick's frame data, all hits but the last one are weight-based, and I wonder if it wouldn't be so bad if the last hit was changed to weight-based knockback as well. If not that, then I think Boost Kick should be tuned so that it is still a viable kill option on heavy characters near the top of the screen, but at a more reasonable percent like, maybe 100-110%, while still retaining the ability to take out lightweights at significantly lower percents.

I think reducing its overall knockback and maybe making it travel half the distance if someone is caught in it (ala Ness' recovery) would be a good adjustment.

Wait, are you guys saying MK doesn't body heavies? Huuuuh?!

Not like ZSS and Sheik do, no.

MK needs specific percents on characters for his ladder of death to work. ZSS and Sheik don't need ANYTHING like that...

Plus, like I said, MK wouldn't need the ladder of death to be relevant in a meta with a reasonable ZSS and Sheik. He needs it right now because those characters dunk him so damn hard.

MK's ladder kill is a lot like Diddy's hoo-haa, not in that it's easy to do, but that it centralizes the focus of the character around something that wasn't meant to be his real bread and butter (that being edgeguarding, which is clearly where he's supposed to shine).

 

[Amadeus9]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaZrfTqKSmE

Salena vs. Pon. It seems to me Ganon can do quite well as long as he avoids the MK combo (that game 2 though...).

What could Salena do? Maybe more edgeguarding?

He could play less like a ****ing ******. Nothing he does in the first 30 seconds makes any sense. It's like he's trying to pressure pon in his face with extended dashdancing but he ****s up his tech and gets punished, also dash attacks through shield like an idiot. That's just 30 seconds of game 1.

MK needs specific percents on characters for his ladder of death to work. ZSS and Sheik don't need ANYTHING like that...

MK just needs to touch you once with a confirm to set you up to death at almost any percent.

Also yeah, they do. Sheik 50/50, ZSS ladder???

And MK also has solid KO options outside of ladder. Amazing fsmash, UPB oos, Usmash, bair, nair, edgeguards.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I think he is saying that Zero Suit and Sheik are far less centralized around a specific aspect of their gameplay in order to excel at top level. Which is definitely true; especially in Sheik's case.

 

[Amadeus9]

I think he is saying that Zero Suit and Sheik are far less centralized around a specific aspect of their gameplay in order to excel at top level. Which is definitely true; especially in Sheik's case.

Yes, which I agree with, however saying that they don't have some reliance on percent specific kill setups is super absurd.

 

[Blobface]

From my experience MK vs Ganon doesn't seem that bad for Ganon either. Maybe having a human frame rather than a big bulky blob like Zard, D3, DK, or Bowser makes early death combos harder? Also, Ganon's really good aerials make it easy to contest MK in the air in neutral.

@Wintropy Ganon's neutral is bad, but I sometimes think people make it out as worse than it is. His normals have bad endlag across the board and only average startup, but all of them sans jab/grab are godlike in every other respect. They all have great range, "priority", do buckets of damage, and despite a lack of true combos they flow into each other quite well. Quite a few key ones, like D-tilt, U-smash, F-air, and B-air have a surprising amount of shield safety. It gives him a very interesting niche IMO, predicated on getting people to fear certain options, thus limiting their options.

Improving Ganon's neutral directly is certainly fine, but I feel it carries the risk of making him really abusive in some matchups, yet still not fixing the issues he has with consistency and several top tiers. His neutral already works really well with the amount of reward he gains in theory.

In practice however, he has too many moves that don't kill early enough to justify his neutral. It also doesn't help that much of his strong moves in neutral are some of his least threatening, Wizkick being the worst offender here. I honestly think that the most significant changes Ganon could get at this point would be knockback/damage buffs to his weaker moves, so that there's a certain point where you simply can't take another hit from Ganon no matter what. This would not only directly improve his reward, but indirectly improve his neutral by giving him more things to make people scared of.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I just noticed that if didn't exist this game wouldn't have a "Best Character" The only two established best characters are Sheik and ZSS and without them it would be tough to decide who #1 is. #3 in the game currently is subjective because so many people are saying different things.

If / never existed, we would've had different characters dominate the meta. There is always a best character, by how much is irrelevant. We simply do not know how the meta would be if sheik/ZSS were bottom tier from the get-go.

 

[Nobie]

Given how people are talking about how "one-note" Meta Knight is, it makes me wonder if the elevator combos are a little too strong to the extent that people forget everything ELSE Meta Knight can do.

Let's get rid of the up airs into up b for the moment. Meta Knight still has...

1) Fantastic frame data (what are frame 3 down tilt and frame 4 down smash?)
2) Good damage racking
3) Good HORIZONTAL kill power (F-Smash especially, but also a strong edge guarding game everyone seems to forget about).

I don't think Shuttle Loop is Diddy Hoo Hah level, and it's a lot of work to master the up air into up b strings, but the fact that people act as if that's all Meta Knight has going for him has me scratching my head. I honestly think Meta Knight would still be at least lower high tier without them (but still keeping Up B's overall KO power).

 

[Jamurai]

Down smash seems cool on paper but the reality is it is outclassed by other moves in MK's kit. Dtilt has longer range and is quicker than the front hit.

Tyrant's great placings (eg. best MK at G3) pretty much prove that MK is still a very good character without Uair combos, he treats them as more of a mixup and uses the rest of MK's kit to great effect. His and Aba's playstyles are very different indeed.

 

[Halifax?]

Ganon has the worst recovery of the heavys. Bowser, DK, Ike, Ryu, Dedede can just throw themselves long distance. So I think Ganon deserves a better Wizard Kick in neutral + maybe in disadvantage like Bouncing Fish or Flip Jump?? All of a sudden you got an old ass man flippin and kickin all around you

 

[|RK|]

Down smash seems cool on paper but the reality is it is outclassed by other moves in MK's kit. Dtilt has longer range and is quicker than the front hit.

Tyrant's great placings (eg. best MK at G3) pretty much prove that MK is still a very good character without Uair combos, he treats them as more of a mixup and uses the rest of MK's kit to great effect. His and Aba's playstyles are very different indeed.

That doesn't show us how MK is without it, though. Regardless of Tyrant's playstyle, the fear of the escalator is enough to cause people to play differently.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

idk

I think "the escalator" is just one facet of a great character and his kit. We'll be seeing more of Metaknight in the future.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Radical Larry]

Unless MK's U-Air gets the Diddy Kong treatment (which it should and probably will), MK has a very dangerous quip, but that's only if he can keep up with a perfectly DI'ing opponent. If he goes against someone like Ganondorf and whiffs one attack or even U-Spec, that is literally the best opportunity for Ganondorf to set up a reversed Warlock Punch; and before people say it can't be done, yes it can. Sure, it'll sometimes miss, but that's by a significantly less margin than anything else. He has a higher chance of his Warlock Punch hitting an opponent who whiffed a U-Spec finisher than anyone else. So characters like ZSS, Meta Knight, Bowser, Charizard, Marth and Mario for example have absolutely no reason to whiff Ganondorf with finishers or combos, lest they be punished by a completely mobile and powerful attack, all due to the chances increasing.

 

[Zonez]

Unless MK's U-Air gets the Diddy Kong treatment (which it should and probably will), MK has a very dangerous quip, but that's only if he can keep up with a perfectly DI'ing opponent. If he goes against someone like Ganondorf and whiffs one attack or even U-Spec, that is literally the best opportunity for Ganondorf to set up a reversed Warlock Punch; and before people say it can't be done, yes it can. Sure, it'll sometimes miss, but that's by a significantly less margin than anything else. He has a higher chance of his Warlock Punch hitting an opponent who whiffed a U-Spec finisher than anyone else. So characters like ZSS, Meta Knight, Bowser, Charizard, Marth and Mario for example have absolutely no reason to whiff Ganondorf with finishers or combos, lest they be punished by a completely mobile and powerful attack, all due to the chances increasing.

You can't be serious.