Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[adom4]

You can't be serious.

It's ok you'll get used to it eventually.

 

[Pazzo.]

I doubt that MK's getting U-Air string -> Shuttle Loop changed anytime soon.

The angles by which certain moves send opponents suggests that MK wants to engage on the ground, and finish in the air. Shuttle Loop is the "Grand Finish" of this mindset.

But that's just my opinion. I don't play MK, so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[TurboLink]

Meta Knight's up air hitbox is nothing special.

 

[Meatbag]

Meta Knight's up air hitbox is nothing special.

Yeah, but landing one off of an airdodge read can lead into up-b which ends up killing between 70-90%.

 

[HoSmash4]

That doesn't show us how MK is without it, though. Regardless of Tyrant's playstyle, the fear of the escalator is enough to cause people to play differently.

Yeah the fear the dash attack just opens everyone up to everything else because they'll play around the dash attack and get hit by them trying to avoid it.

 

[Cyclone_]

Unless MK's U-Air gets the Diddy Kong treatment (which it should and probably will), MK has a very dangerous quip, but that's only if he can keep up with a perfectly DI'ing opponent. If he goes against someone like Ganondorf and whiffs one attack or even U-Spec, that is literally the best opportunity for Ganondorf to set up a reversed Warlock Punch; and before people say it can't be done, yes it can. Sure, it'll sometimes miss, but that's by a significantly less margin than anything else. He has a higher chance of his Warlock Punch hitting an opponent who whiffed a U-Spec finisher than anyone else. So characters like ZSS, Meta Knight, Bowser, Charizard, Marth and Mario for example have absolutely no reason to whiff Ganondorf with finishers or combos, lest they be punished by a completely mobile and powerful attack, all due to the chances increasing.

Care to explain on these wonderful theories of yours? i'd honestly be glad to hear you out on this.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Yeah, but landing one off of an airdodge read can lead into up-b which ends up killing between 70-90%.

But it is not guaranteed. If you don't get the "magic percents" is is very difficult to actually get it to work.
I mean, I've seen Abadango fishing for Uairs whenever the opponent is in the air, and follow the DI/launch and somehow get the kill. But it is pretty forced and very prone to miss.


Also, MK's neutral isn't all that wonderful, it is actually very average, but his conversions and raw juggle ability are top-notch even if you don't take in account the Signature Combo.

 

[Solfiner]

People need to learn how to DI Meta Knight's Uair strings better. It's obviously a lot harder to do that with certain characters though.

 

[Amadeus9]

kind of a damned if u do/dont situation tho. if u di up, the mk gets less uairs but you die earlier, if you di to the sides/down the mk can land more uairs.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

You can't be serious.

Well, on a random note, the new reverse warlock punch super armour helps against Luma.

 

[meleebrawler]

All of these changes would screw Kirby so hard, lol

Would it really? The lowered damage from successive hits might actually help him combo better (without making his damage output too excessive). Kill power on his main kill moves wouldn't be impacted too badly (if a move isn't used in a combo it's damage is normal). As damage patches have shown a simple change of damage can have a significant effect on knockback.

If it was simply switched on right now, no other changes, probably. (If I understand what it is...)

Buuut they wouldn't let such a mechanic exist without "balancing" it their way and we'd be back at square one with another mechanic that just muddles combo percents.

IMO, it'd be better if staleness worked differently. Right now it only hurts kill moves and helps combo moves. If instead knockback increased for certain moves it'd be a lot easier to control what does and doesn't combo... And as an added bonus they'd have a new gimmick to toy around with, like making certain moves explicitly combo longer or kill quicker the more they're used.

Damage scaling is the act of lowering damage of moves used in true combos, with the more hits in a combo amplifying the effect.
Just imagine, Sheik's fair strings ending up doing so little damage and hitstun that they could end up being punished on hit if the string goes too long, and ZSS's Boost Kick not killing so fraudulently when used after a uair string.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Well, on a random note, the new reverse warlock punch super armour helps against Luma.

Your hopes will slowly perish as you feel those 1000 Needles on your character.
I thought Cactuar was the only character able to do such a thing, but well, seems like Sheik has mastered it vs Slow Charas.

 

[Planty]

Well, on a random note, the new reverse warlock punch super armour helps against Luma.

How?

 

[adom4]

How?

It got super armor last patch, so we don't have to position ourselves awkwardly during shield breaks lol.

 

[S_B]

MK just needs to touch you once with a confirm to set you up to death at almost any percent.

Are you sure? Why did people raise a ****storm about certain people not sharing what % range the MK combos worked in?

Also yeah, they do. Sheik 50/50, ZSS ladder???

It's nowhere near as centralized as MK's ladder combo is, though. Many MKs struggle with their matches if the opponent gets out of range where the ladder combo works (and I know I've seen a spreadsheet with the info about what % ranges it works on different characters...).

And MK also has solid KO options outside of ladder. Amazing fsmash, UPB oos, Usmash, bair, nair, edgeguards.

None of them are as easy to confirm as ZSS/Sheik's options, though, at any percentage.

There is always a best character, by how much is irrelevant.

Sure it is. If the perceived difference between two characters is small, it could only be meta development that's missing to make the perceived weaker character as or more viable.

The difference between a 60:40 matchup and a 70:30 is massive. If the matchups with ZSS and Sheik for HWs were 60:40, there'd still be a reason for more people to try to push their metas forward, but with 70:30s, you basically NEED a secondary and as soon as a character becomes a secondary, they're not going to get anywhere near the same amount of love as a pure main and are more likely to abandon the secondary entirely.

 

[Radical Larry]

Care to explain on these wonderful theories of yours? i'd honestly be glad to hear you out on this.

Well first off, think of this, say you have an opponent that can perform strings into a kill option, and that kill option just so happens to be a vertical one. Now let's put this to one of two characters, either Zero Suit Samus OR Meta Knight, and say that their kill move whiffs (because don't lie, those things can whiff into a free punish) on someone like Ganondorf.

Let's then have Ganondorf perform the reversed Warlock Punch input and move around. Now where to time it is your decision as long as you time it before the opponent can get to the ground. Since the likes of ZSS and Meta Knight do indeed barely move from their recoveries afterward, and that Ganondorf can freely move once he reverses the Warlock Punch mid-air, while there is no extremely high possibility it will connect, the reason why I said Ganondorf has a higher chance of actually hitting the opponent boils down to how some opponents' recoveries will stall them from moving in the lateral direction or slow them down, and the fact that you can act almost immediately out of a whiffed attack like Shuttle Loop or even Boost Kick.

The chances of hitting an opponent just with a Warlock Punch alone without them performing their strings is just around maybe a 5% to 10% chance, but if you know where your opponent's going, if you see them whiff their own kill attack after their combo string, your chances will turn from such a low chance to 50%.

I saw this the first time I performed it on For Glory, and for some reason, this had stuck with me when I went to my first AND second tournaments with Ganondorf, where on three and five occasions respectively, it did work again. I went to my most recent, third, tournament and went against some extremely tough people and showed some of the people this, and to be fair, they were impressed.

Now look, I'm not saying it's going to be a guaranteed punish, it's just that this is one effective (for me at least, maybe not anyone else, but for me it has worked on numerous occasions) tool of punishing characters who whiff their recoveries for kill potential or Bowser's U-Throw > U-Spec (let's be honest, if you use that, you're going to get enough endlag and landing lag to get hit by Ganondorf's Warlock Punch regardless).

Look, I'll be honest, I'm NOT very good at explaining it, but if you guys actually had a little bit of faith in me (and stopped thinking I'm a loon, because the jokes are getting old), go try testing it out. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't; it's just a 50/50 chance if you use it as a punish tool on opponents. It's nothing spectacular, it's nothing broken, but it's something I've at least found effective when playing as Ganon. It may not be the same with you guys and you think it's a joke, but it's just not; I'm not kidding on this.

 

[warionumbah2]

I doubt that MK's getting U-Air string -> Shuttle Loop changed anytime soon.

The angles by which certain moves send opponents suggests that MK wants to engage on the ground, and finish in the air. Shuttle Loop is the "Grand Finish" of this mindset.

"A mysterious masked swordsman from the Kirby series. His cape can turn into wings, which gives him the ability to fly. His swift swordplay and ability to stay in the air give him an edge in this game. He can combine five mid-air jumps with a special move to make recovering a cinch. If you use him, try to keep battle airborne."

Sounds about right, other than Fair his aerials got buffed pretty hard in the same patch. At this point you gotta be real naive to think that Sakurai isn't aware of MKs/ZSS Uair combo's. The prayers for the combo to get gutted will go unanswered just like nerfs to Sheik.

 

[DblCrest]

warionumbah2
Your profile picture makes so much sense now. Guess it will just be Di or Die . Or Pray.
Wonder if it will be the same for when Bayonetta drops in.

Did Tyrant rely on Upair to Shuttle loop strings during Genesis?

 

[Asdioh]

I'm sure Shuttle Loop is meant to be comboed into. Upair into SL, Dthrow into SL, Dash Attack into Upair->SL, etc. are all probably intended.
But I really doubt Dash Attack into Upair, Upair, Upair, Upair, SL is intended, especially when it kills at ultra low percents, without even the help of Rage, and with little for the victim to do but DI and PICK A GOD AND PRAY that the Meta Knight messes up the combo. Which I'm sure good Meta Knights rarely do; even I got pretty good at the cheesy MK combos after only 20 minutes in training mode, and I'm bad at pressing buttons @_@
As for ZSS, at least her Upair->UpB combos don't kill as early, so they're really not as problematic.
I think Meta Knight's super cool in this game, I just wish the knockback angle of Upair was a little more diagonal, so you could DI away and only get hit by 1-2 before the Shuttle Loop, thus preventing fraudulent early kills. I also wish they fixed Kirby's version of Mach Tornado so it doesn't deal only half the damage MK's version does. I think Sheik/ZSS nerfs are more likely than that thing getting fixed.

People need to learn how to DI Meta Knight's Uair strings better. It's obviously a lot harder to do that with certain characters though.

You can DI them, but there's nothing you can do to survive if Meta Knight hits you at the right percentage range, and then follows your DI without making input errors. At least, this is true for Kirby :/ MK mains gloat to me about how easy it is to perform on him.

 

[Smog Frog]

good luck trying to land the uair ladder in ffa

-sakurai 2016

 

[Radical Larry]

good luck trying to land the uair ladder in ffa

-sakurai 2016

And then the day came...201X...Meta Knight fell down Mount Ebott and...
Wait, wrong game...

2025...Meta Knight was caught in the explosion in Nu-
Wrong game again.

Oh yeah, 20XX, Meta Knight has had his moves...
Deal PERFECTION plus 9001.

Hold on, hold on, let me get serious.

And then Meta Knight's U-Air Ladder...
Got Greninja'd.

(I just had to take it. Sorry, not sorry. In all due respect though, Meta Knight might get his U-Air nerfed or at least Shuttle Loop will lose a LOT of KB or KBG.)

 

[FlynnCL]

If you look at Meta Knight's data, it's hard to think that his dash attack > up air > Shuttle Loop KO confirms was anything but intentional. After so many patches with these confirms left untouched, it has to be their intended design.

Otherwise, there's no way they'd give him the shortest dash attack in the entire game in terms of duration (31 frames total?) with 3 different trajectories (60°/70°/80°) that exist solely to keep your opponent directly above you no matter what part of the dash attack you hit with. They gave it a lot of base knockback so your opponent is vulnerable to air combos starting at 0%.

Just like dash attack, his up air is extremely short in duration (2nd fastest in the game behind Bow.Jr) with low base knockback and a trajectory that keeps you close, which they gave to a fighter with 5 mid-air jumps! Meta Knight's nerfs from Brawl were deliberate and addressed what made him dominant, but they obviously didn't want to mess too hard with the aerial combo aspect of him. I mean, they even buffed his airspeed from Brawl and buffed his up air range by 2 units in 1.0.4 to link into itself better.

An aerial Shuttle Loop is actually faster than a grounded Shuttle Loop. It's just too obvious that he was re-purposed and designed to convert off the ground (dash attacks and grabs) into a highly damaging aerial transition which could even explain why the opposite (his aerial to ground transition) is generally quite poor in auto cancels and landing lag.

This might be why his forward air auto link was removed, because they don't want him to excel with aerial to ground combos. The most unintentional part of his kit as of this moment could be his back air jab lock set ups, but certainly not his ladder combos.

 

[Charoite]

The next thing people will say is that the balance team doesn't know of punish game, or luma, or good aerials, maybe they want the characters to be that way, or because they aren't an immediate problem, or the time is not worth(they still need to balance , and probably buffing low-mid tiers), because i doubt the team that toned down nerf shields, rolls, airdodge, make chances exclusivity to a format that only competitive smash use ie: same team absorbing mechanics in doubles, (yes i know that she is still too good but she was even better before) , reduce polarizing aspect of , fixed and helped , yes the team sometimes make questionable choices, but 90% of the time they are right, yet you still say that they don't know something like metaknight Up-air combos, when in the game tips its says that he is better in aerial combat.

 

[predator_21476]

The next thing people will say is that the balance team doesn't know of punish game, or luma, or good aerials, maybe they want the characters to be that way, or because they aren't an immediate problem, or the time is not worth(they still need to balance , and probably buffing low-mid tiers), because i doubt the team that toned down nerf shields, rolls, airdodge, make chances exclusivity to a format that only competitive smash use ie: same team absorbing mechanics in doubles, (yes i know that she is still too good but she was even better before) , reduce polarizing aspect of , fixed and helped , yes the team sometimes make questionable choices, but 90% of the time they are right, yet you still say that they don't know something like metaknight Up-air combos, when in the game tips its says that he is better in aerial combat.

Only one small nitpick with this Sakurai has said that cloud is supposed to be bad in the air. Now his recovery is terrible but he has some of the best aerials in the game so I'm pretty sure his amazing aerials are not intentional.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Or Sakurai could have been talking about his ability to recover overall?

Smooth Criminal

 

[predator_21476]

Or Sakurai could have been talking about his ability to recover overall?

Smooth Criminal

Maybe the quote just says he's bad in the air. It's hard to know exactly what he means by that.

 

[FallofBrawl]

People don't know the meaning of "lost in translation"

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Which is why I even posed the question in the first place? Should have been more specific with my rhetoric, sorry.

Smooth Criminal

 

[JesterJaded]

If the balance team "intended" for ZSS and MK to have their ladder confirms but not for Luigi to have his grab combo game, then the balance team members are officially trolls.

 

[Yikarur]

Cloud is "bad in the air". His recovery is bad and this disadvantage state is bad as well. Once you get him in the air you'll get a lot of damage on him.

 

[Nu~]

Cloud is "bad in the air". His recovery is bad and this disadvantage state is bad as well. Once you get him in the air you'll get a lot of damage on him.

His disadvantage state is bad, but not all that awful. With airspeed like that and a highly threatening Dair, it's more difficult to juggle him than one may think.

 

[bc1910]

At this point I think most of the stuff in this game is intentional. The only thing I can think of off the top of my head that likely isn't intentional is the Greninja SS hitstun cancel, and it's hardly a pressing issue.

I don't think some of the stuff that was taken out was unintentional, either; just ended up being too strong. Luigi's Dthrow kill confirms are probably the best example of this. Another example would be Fox's jab loop, because if they didn't want his jab 1/2 to combo at all they'd have nerfed the frame data and not the BKB/trajectory.

Look, I'll be honest, I'm NOT very good at explaining it, but if you guys actually had a little bit of faith in me (and stopped thinking I'm a loon, because the jokes are getting old), go try testing it out. Maybe it'll work, maybe it won't; it's just a 50/50 chance if you use it as a punish tool on opponents. It's nothing spectacular, it's nothing broken, but it's something I've at least found effective when playing as Ganon. It may not be the same with you guys and you think it's a joke, but it's just not; I'm not kidding on this.

You can't expect everyone to forget about stuff like the Ganondorf Usmash debacle (what was it you said? It only has 20 total frames?) or constantly claiming Link is better than Toon Link when a huge amount of evidence exists to the contrary. Committing to posting such "radical" things (which IMO you do for the sake of it/for attention) and then complaining when no-one believes you is like, I dunno, doing a nude scene and then complaining no-one takes you seriously as an actor.

Not to mention you have an annoying habit of posting something "radical", then just claiming you were kidding when you get heat for it. This is the main reason why I think you do it for attention.

Faith and respect are earned, not demanded.

 

[Jamurai]

Are you sure? Why did people raise a ****storm about certain people not sharing what % range the MK combos worked in?

It's nowhere near as centralized as MK's ladder combo is, though. Many MKs struggle with their matches if the opponent gets out of range where the ladder combo works (and I know I've seen a spreadsheet with the info about what % ranges it works on different characters...).

Rage and Uair staling considerably widen the range at which Uair combos work; Uair staling especially does and is underused. Ito comboed Uair into another Uair to Up-B at 87% for the kill in his set vs Waymas at G3 for example.

If an MK struggles once the opponent is out of fresh dash attack kill %, then they frankly aren't a good MK. There is much more to him than The Combo, contrary to what you imply. It's quite possible that there are a generation of MKs who have only picked him up because of the combo and thus do badly, but I don't really see how they are relevant.

I doubt anyone has an accurate, complete spreadsheet about Uair combos except Leo, Aba and Ito anyway. The amount of data required to detail the combo is huge. So, I wouldn't use one you have happened to see somewhere as a valid citation.

None of them are as easy to confirm as ZSS/Sheik's options, though, at any percentage.

Not being quite as good as the two best characters in the game doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. Besides, Sheik's Dthrow 50/50 at least requires you to read their DI and guess which get-out option they will pick, so it's not that easy. ZSS's Uairs to Up-B shouldn't even kill most characters without considerable rage if they DI correctly. Although of course, she still has setups into Flip Kick.

MK has other kill setups and mixups as well as what Amadeus mentioned. He doesn't struggle in this department at all.

 

[NegaNixx]

On the subject of Metaknight. I think the reason his U-Air -> Shuttle Loop combo is so focal isn't purely because of the game itself but because the early deaths are the flashiest thing he can do. People play MK generally because of that combo and learn it first before learning his neutral game, his Edgeguarding game, how to mix up his recovery properly and all these little nuances that make him a great character before Stairway to Heaven makes him a stellar one.

This is why Tyrant is the best Metaknight in my opinion, when I was watching Genesis and from watching Aba a tad, what I picked up was that Aba doesn't like to play neutral at all with MK. He's almost purely punish game, and while his is stellar he fails to create openings for himself and instead simply waits.

Tyrant on the other hand plays neutral and opens himself up to interactions with the opposing character. He doesn't focus purely on the StH combo and that opens up his play a lot more than other MKs (including myself).

As much as we rag on MKs neutral it's still a functional one. D-Tilt, F-Tilt, F-Smash, Out of Dash options, Tornado, and Cape are all useful tools that pull his game together very well.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

After now FOW and Gunblade (and ConCon I guess?) all putting Kirby as a high tier contender, I just have an urge to talk about Kirby's place in this meta.

FOW said that Kirby is a secret MU destroyer, which I can't disagree with. He obviously gets bodied by some characters (ie. ) he has about even MUs with and (now with pluck dashing, basically wavedashing with pikmin that combo), he can be a huge threat counterpick wise. Results wise he isn't doing great, but Mike has taken multiple sets off of Larry, and also went last hit/last stock/last game with Nairo.

Kirby is a character that, while being a great counterpick character, is also easily counterpicked. Mike vs Larry's Mario is good evidence of this. Larry lost with his main and secondary, so in their next set he goes his tertiary and gets a clear 3-1. He has a lot of trashy MUs, that he basically needs a secondary for.

Does this make him high tier? Probably not. I like to think of him as Melee Samus. He can do well as a CP but struggles as a solo-character. Kirby simply can't be low tier with his decent high tier MU spread, no matter how you look at it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

After now FOW and Gunblade (and ConCon I guess?) all putting Kirby as a high tier contender, I just have an urge to talk about Kirby's place in this meta.

FOW said that Kirby is a secret MU destroyer, which I can't disagree with. He obviously gets bodied by some characters (ie. ) he has about even MUs with and (now with pluck dashing, basically wavedashing with pikmin that combo), he can be a huge threat counterpick wise. Results wise he isn't doing great, but Mike has taken multiple sets off of Larry, and also went last hit/last stock/last game with Nairo.

Kirby is a character that, while being a great counterpick character, is also easily counterpicked. Mike vs Larry's Mario is good evidence of this. Larry lost with his main and secondary, so in their next set he goes his tertiary and gets a clear 3-1. He has a lot of trashy MUs, that he basically needs a secondary for.

Does this make him high tier? Probably not. I like to think of him as Melee Samus. He can do well as a CP but struggles as a solo-character. Kirby simply can't be low tier with his decent high tier MU spread, no matter how you look at it.

Agreed, but some mistakes:

• doesn't destroy us, that matchup isn't worse than 40-60. or would fit better there
• You forgot as even. and are advantages for us
• Not a mistake, but I bet Bayoneta will be even too, and also be a S tier

But yeah, that last paragraph is kinda like what I think, although I think he can go solo due to Mikekirby getting fifth in KTAR while beating both a AND . Top players that use certain characters get pretty bad though, so who knows

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Agreed, but some mistakes:

• doesn't destroy us, that matchup isn't worse than 40-60. or would fit better there
• You forgot as even. and are advantages for us
• Not a mistake, but I bet Bayoneta will be even too, and also be a S tier

But yeah, that last paragraph is kinda like what I think, although I think he can go solo due to Mikekirby getting fifth in KTAR while beating both a AND . Top players that use certain characters get pretty bad though, so who knows

You're kind of behind on MUs. Luigi was almost unwinnable until he got nerfed, but he's still probably our worst MU (maybe after Sonic) due to his range and frame data advantage, along with his projectile and good kill power. I make it seem a lot better than it is.

Sheik isn't even, and isn't close to even either. I was considering putting her in bad but decided against it. This is because, even though we have good combos and force her to approach, this isn't a struggle for her. She has God frame data to get out of our combos, amazing mobility and good burst options, and overall can always apply pressure safely and easily. Inhale makes it easier but it has nowhere near the same effect her needles have.

Falcon and Olimar are debatable, not a anything to argue over.

About bayonetta, people were saying we beat Ryu before he even came out, and look how that turned out (hint: badly).

On another note, Anti said he's using Zard at PAX. Does Zard have any notable high tier MUs?

 

[bc1910]

Kirby is not even with Sheik. This is a misconception that has been going on for far too long and needs to die.

Kirby having comparable frame data and the ability to copy needles does not do enough to bridge the gap between his and Sheik's mobility. She runs rings around him, camps him, outranges him and is better at killing. To copy needles he has to catch her, which is a massive feat in itself.

Is Kirby Sheik's worst low tier MU? Possibly. Does that mean it's in Kirby's favour? Absolutely not.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Kirby is not even with Sheik. This is a misconception that has been going on for far too long and needs to die.

Kirby having comparable frame data and the ability to copy needles does not do enough to bridge the gap between his and Sheik's mobility. She runs rings around him, camps him, outranges him and is better at killing. To copy needles he has to catch her, which is a massive feat in itself.

Is Kirby Sheik's worst low tier MU? Possibly. Does that mean it's in Kirby's favour? Absolutely not.

The last time I heard of Kirby being a possible counter to sheik was when shaya created the first competitive character impressions thread.

 

[arbustopachon]

Out of the high tiers, Zard deals well with Rosa and thats about it. He doesn't struggle as much as other characters against Fox, Mario and Luigi.
He still loses all of those matchups, its just that Charizard doesn't get bodied by them.
Weird that he is gonna go Zard tho. Zss, Sheik, Metaknight,Pit, Greninja and Villager pretty much invalidate our beloved flying lizard and there are way better Rosa cps ( like cps that actually have a positive matchup against her).