Official Character Competitive Impressions - Tourneys, Tiers, Theories, Tactics

[AnEventHorizon]

I don't think it's right to completely disregard a persons tier list just because you don't agree with the comparisons between oneor two characters (more important the Charizard v Greninja is the C tier level of viability he sees for each character) especially from someone who knows enough about the game to have made top 8 at out most recent and basically most stacked ever Smash 4 tournament.

That having been said, FOWs seems to be the only american tier list that rates Duck Hunt in a way that seems to correspond to his Japanese results. The potential he sees in Wii Fit is interesting, not much noise seems to have been made over Rin's WFT making Top 32, losing out early to arguably WFT's worst matchup in ESAM's Pikachu.

Little Mac's placement is interesting - I havent heard of any well placing Little Mac other than Noble | Sol so I must be missing something for him to feel he belongs in B. Was there a Mexican LM? I dont remember.

@DanGR If it helps, FOW said that it was based on his own experience with the character, his perception of their potential, and their results.

Greninja - hopefully iStudying does something at Beast 6. In terms of NA results he has little, in terms of Japanese results he's been dropped by Some I believe?

 

[Y2Kay]

He claims his greninja placement is because of "unreliable neutral" and "his aerials are easily challenged because of startup"

What the actual........

 

[HeavyLobster]

I wanna come back to read interesting theorycraft on character viability and have it backed up with results. Instead I see people crying and meme jerking about some player's tier list.

Please.

Based on my experience with this character (literally 3 games).


Let's talk about Zard, probably the best Oos options for a heavy. Jab jab confirms to up b for late% kills. His hurtbox isn't actually that fat. Great walking/running speed. Slew of super armour options and 2 mid air jumps to escape juggle situations. Best killing upthrow (stage dependent), poking tools in ftilt, dtilt, and flamethrower. SHAC nair and fair. I'm pretty sure bair confirms into an unescapable dair if air dodged. I admit his fair strings would be pretty dumb if he had higher air mobility. Why does no one play this character?

(Also he's fun but not as fun as Ganondorf)

 

[hypersonicJD]

He is ness main, what did you expect? Ness has amazing aerials with almost no start-up.

I mean he is a great player, but he is really understimating Greninja. That character has to be like B tier. He is held down because of Sheik and other bad match-ups.

 

[FullMoon]

To be honest outside of B-Air and maybe Up-Air it is pretty easy to challenge Greninja's aerials since they take a while (F-Air is frame 16 I mean come on) and it is a bit of a problem the character faces. Not usually very good to trade with his aerials though since N-Air and F-Air both do pretty good damage.

His neutral though, is an entirely different story.

 

[arbustopachon]

Zard gets screwed by his physics, his oos options are great but his terrible traction keeps em in check.
He also has a pretty bad disadvantaged state courtesy of his bad airspeed and bad endlag and landing lag of his aerials.
Sure he can mixup with wavebounced angled down flamethrowers, rocksmashes, flys, nairs and dairs but landing is a struggle.
His recovery is decent but gimpable and even though he is a heavy he dies relatively early to vertical ko options.
He also was rather weak prepatch, which made people not really want to try him out and labell him of a weaker bowser.
And last but not least

(Also he's fun but not as fun as Ganondorf)

(Tho i think zard is more fun)
I mean Zard is not bad, but he still needs some small but important tweaks in order to be a good character.

 

[Y2Kay]

To be honest outside of B-Air and maybe Up-Air it is pretty easy to challenge Greninja's aerials since they take a while (F-Air is frame 16 I mean come on) and it is a bit of a problem the character faces. Not usually very good to trade with his aerials though since N-Air and F-Air both do pretty good damage.

His neutral though, is an entirely different story.

Yeah his frame data is an intended weakness since he racks up a lot of damage with his combos.

But there is sheik however.........

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Been labbing with lucario to see if I can main him and it's been the STRUGGLE.

• Short-ranged normals all-around means having a very small kill-zone.
• Having considerably long startup on nearly every normal with exceptions being jab (still very slow), Nair, Fair, Utilt, Dtilt and Dair.
• 0% aura has a number of follow ups and combos, but they're kinda chump-change (there's some that do 30% and stuff, so I guess that's cool).
• LONG startup on recovery with practically no hit of until the last second and that doesn't even kill until higher rage and aura. Though you can control it greatly and up b onto a wall for a wall cling.
• Down B is not functional, even if it's intentional or not. Unless you're double teaming a attack with commitment written on it, a lot of players can just shield and punish, which is dumb ah. Making it unblock able is something I wish would happen, but it won't most likely
• Side b is fine for now since I haven't labbed it out yet, but initially impressions from me is that it's very situational and by that I mean 0% vs >80% aura and the proper reads
• Dair has such a small hit box it's super annoying since I found some interesting reset setups and grabs off of that move
• Fair is inconsistent. I can't use it against small characters and it's perfectly useable against big bodies
• Bair is slower than dirt on startup and can be hard to utilize, but you get pretty good reward for using it at high aura.
• Playing neutral is being passive and waiting for something the opponent does wrong and punishing with Instant Dash Attack or grab. Nair is used for approaching and even though it's pretty short-ranged-ish, It sets me up In a distance where my opponent's grab will whiff (I think).
• Killing with lucario is so hard. Everything is pretty much based on reads which isn't a bad or something that is a killing flaw. It's his normals that make it such a chore, even at high percentage. The startup for most of his moves are so Bad that it forces me to miss the timing for me to punish my opponent.

So yea, it's been hard and I sometimes feel discouraged, but I want to raise up my little cario' and master him. He's actually really fun when you have all of his Breversals and wavebouncing down. It's just his neutral that's hard to get down.

EDIT: more thing about lucario: it is my opinion that he's just a mid-tier. His aura keeps him afloat, but his neutral in comparison to others, is really problematic. Maybe I'm biased due to me coming from doc Mario (his neutral is easily workable imo), but it's something when Luigi can walk you out by his Bair and fireball.

 

[Y2Kay]

Been labbing with lucario to see if I can main him and it's been the STRUGGLE.

• Short-ranged normals all-around means having a very small kill-zone.
• Having considerably long startup on nearly every normal with exceptions being jab (still very slow), Nair, Fair, Utilt, Dtilt and Dair.
• 0% aura has a number of follow ups and combos, but they're kinda chump-change (there's some that do 30% and stuff, so I guess that's cool).
• LONG startup on recovery with practically no hit of until the last second and that doesn't even kill until higher rage and aura. Though you can control it greatly and up b onto a wall for a wall cling.
• Down B is not functional, even if it's intentional or not. Unless you're double teaming a attack with commitment written on it, a lot of players can just shield and punish, which is dumb ah. Making it unblock able is something I wish would happen, but it won't most likely
• Side b is fine for now since I haven't labbed it out yet, but initially impressions from me is that it's very situational and by that I mean 0% vs >80% aura and the proper reads
• Dair has such a small hit box it's super annoying since I found some interesting reset setups and grabs off of that move
• Fair is inconsistent. I can't use it against small characters and it's perfectly useable against big bodies
• Bair is slower than dirt on startup and can be hard to utilize, but you get pretty good reward for using it at high aura.
• Playing neutral is being passive and waiting for something the opponent does wrong and punishing with Instant Dash Attack or grab. Nair is used for approaching and even though it's pretty short-ranged-ish, It sets me up In a distance where my opponent's grab will whiff (I think).
• Killing with lucario is so hard. Everything is pretty much based on reads which isn't a bad or something that is a killing flaw. It's his normals that make it such a chore, even at high percentage. The startup for most of his moves are so Bad that it forces me to miss the timing for me to punish my opponent.

So yea, it's been hard and I sometimes feel discouraged, but I want to raise up my little cario' and master him. He's actually really fun when you have all of his Breversals and wavebouncing down. It's just his neutral that's hard to get down.

Maining Lucario is a journey. It requires a lot of commitment. You will get rewarded for your work, don't get discouraged.

 

[FallofBrawl]

The thing I dislike about Lucario is how undertuned they've made him at low% and how overtuned he is at high%. If the balance was shifted just a bit I would definitely look into him.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Maining Lucario is a journey. It requires a lot of commitment. You will get rewarded for your work, don't get discouraged.

His neutral is going to be the hardest thing to develop. So many small hit boxes......

EDIT: his high sh height is also hard to adjust to. I've been solo-maining doc for a minute and he has a low sh height and that has been working for me very well.

 

[Rizen]

IMO 's one of those characters who seems to have good things going for him in theory but gets danced around in practice. Great run speed but his huge hurtbox extends out and his air speed limits options. Super armor but on easy to see, avoid and punish specials. 's buffs did help significantly but in the end he's easy to get around and exploit.

 

[Nysyr]

Fun fact: Lucario's Bair has been bugged since release giving the second hitbox more damage but less range. Something something incompetent programmers...

 

[Baby_Sneak]

IMO 's one of those characters who seems to have good things going for him in theory but gets danced around in practice. Great run speed but his huge hurtbox extends out and his air speed limits options. Super armor but on easy to see, avoid and punish specials. 's buffs did help significantly but in the end he's easy to get around and exploit.

His turnaround animation makes me think his ground game could be really good (Dtilt is amazing for pokes, OOS options seem to be good, pokes with flamethrower). He seems more ground-based.

 

[Rysir]

Fun fact: Lucario's Bair has been bugged since release giving the second hitbox more damage but less range. Something something incompetent programmers...

Not very fun and not a fact.

Bair has a sweet spot (if one can really call it that) but not a second hitbox.

 

[arbustopachon]

Charizard's groundgame is pretty good. Walk, dash and sh airdodge are all pretty solid. His grounded moves are good and so are his sh nair and fair. The thing is his aerial approach is iffy and thus he can sometimes be predictable. Because of this he sometimes stuggles when approaching. He seriously needs less landing lag in his aerials, if he gets that he'll be in a good spot

 

[Nysyr]

Not very fun and not a fact.

Bair has a sweet spot not a second hitbox.

Frame 16-17 has one set of hitboxes, 18-19 has another. The one in 18-19 that was supposed to be changed to 9 damage was erroneously removed, leaving the closer 15 damage hitbox.

AsynchronousTimer(4.000000)#frame 4
?SetBit(0x2100000d)
AsynchronousTimer(16.000000)#frame 16
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=15.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x64, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x1e, Size=5.200000, X=0.000000, Y=11.000000, -14.000000, 0x15, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x2, 0x16, 0x3, 0x1, 0x4, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x4, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 15.000000, 0x169, 0x64, 0x0, 0x1e, 3.000000, 0.000000, 11.000000, -9.000000, 0x15, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x2, 0x16, 0x3, 0x1, 0x4, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x4, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x41300000, -0x3f400000)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 18
RemoveHitbox(0x0)
unk_DFA4517A(0x0, 0x41100000)
AsynchronousTimer(20.000000)#frame 20
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(40.000000)#frame 40
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Charizard's groundgame is pretty good. Walk, dash and sh airdodge are all pretty solid. His grounded moves are good and so are hi sh nair and fair. The thing is his aerial approach is iffy and thus he can sometimes be predictable. Because of this he sometimes stuggles when approaching. He seriously needs less landing lag in his aerials, if he gets that hell be in a good spot

You have no reason to walk though. Zard's turnaround run animation is insane. The shortest I've seen in the game. You have no reason to walk when you can basically do everything you need to out of his turnaround.

 

[Mario766]

Watching Link vs TL makes me feel really bad for Link players.

TL gets so much more damage off stray hits, and his projectiles lead into kill confirms while Link...

Doesn't.

Add on extra mobility, and you have one hell of a character while one lags behind.

 

[Rysir]

Frame 16-17 has one set of hitboxes, 18-19 has another. The one in 18-19 that was supposed to be changed to 9 damage was erroneously removed, leaving the closer 15 damage hitbox.

AsynchronousTimer(4.000000)#frame 4
?SetBit(0x2100000d)
AsynchronousTimer(16.000000)#frame 16
Hitbox6_14FCC7E4(Id=0x0, Bone?=0x0, unk?=0x0, Damage=15.000000, Angle=0x169, BKB=0x64, WKB?=0x0, KBG=0x1e, Size=5.200000, X=0.000000, Y=11.000000, -14.000000, 0x15, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x2, 0x16, 0x3, 0x1, 0x4, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x4, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0)
Hitbox8_7075DC5A(0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 15.000000, 0x169, 0x64, 0x0, 0x1e, 3.000000, 0.000000, 11.000000, -9.000000, 0x15, 0x0, 1.000000, 1.000000, 0x1, 0x1, 0x0, 0x2, 0x16, 0x3, 0x1, 0x4, 0x3f, 0x0, 0xf, 0x0, 0x1, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x4, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x0, 0x41300000, -0x3f400000)
SynchronousTimer(2.000000)#frame 18
RemoveHitbox(0x0)
unk_DFA4517A(0x0, 0x41100000)
AsynchronousTimer(20.000000)#frame 20
RemoveAllHitboxes()
AsynchronousTimer(40.000000)#frame 40
?ClearBit(0x2100000d)
End()

Riddle me this Batman

How does something get erroneously removed if it was never there in the first place since it was "bugged from release"?

 

[Solfiner]

Watching Link vs TL makes me feel really bad for Link players.

TL gets so much more damage off stray hits, and his projectiles lead into kill confirms while Link...

Doesn't.

Add on extra mobility, and you have one hell of a character while one lags behind.

Just the difference in their bombs alone makes TLink so much better.

 

[Nysyr]

Riddle me this Batman

How does something get erroneously removed if it was never there in the first place since it was "bugged from release"?

Fine, you win, its the same hitboxes just changed. Doesn't change that its bugged.

No need to be contentious about it.

0x1 is the close hitbox, 0x0 is the far hitbox. 0x1 persists from 16-19, 0x0 was changed AND removed on 18.

 

[TurboLink]

Watching Link vs TL makes me feel really bad for Link players.

TL gets so much more damage off stray hits, and his projectiles lead into kill confirms while Link...

Doesn't.

Add on extra mobility, and you have one hell of a character while one lags behind.

Where did you watch this?

(Look at my avatar. That's me crying while reading this post.)

 

[Y2Kay]

He is ness main, what did you expect? Ness has amazing aerials with almost no start-up.

I mean he is a great player, but he is really understimating Greninja. That character has to be like B tier. He is held down because of Sheik and other bad match-ups.

and are kinda bad, but is really the only pimp Greninja's got to answer to.

that's a really weird analogy, now that I think about it.....

 

[Mario766]

Where did you watch this?

(Look at my avatar. That's me crying while reading this post.)

Zidico vs *****, Breakout in MI.

Just happened on stream.

Oh look a censor

D I C K S*

 

[HeavyLobster]

Watching Link vs TL makes me feel really bad for Link players.

TL gets so much more damage off stray hits, and his projectiles lead into kill confirms while Link...

Doesn't.

Add on extra mobility, and you have one hell of a character while one lags behind.

Link does get kill confirms, just not as reliably. Link also has the ability to meaningfully threaten shields while Toon Link has issues with them. Toon Link is still safer and better, but the gap isn't that terrible. Like Toon Link is B tier and Link is C tier. Link is just a pretty mediocre zoner and has to play an inherently riskier midrange game. Both suck in disadvantage, but Tink sucks less due to floatiness, so of course the low risk game is going to be better. Link requires both technical skill and mental strength to win, while Tink doesn't have to take as many chances.

 

[Rysir]

To cement it, no guys lucario's Bair is not bugged. You can land with the tip of the aura blast or with the base of the paw and not get a difference in damage so dont worry!

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Zidico vs *****, Breakout in MI.

Just happened on stream.

Oh look a censor

D I C K S*

N O C H I L L B O Y Z
L

 

[Fatmanonice]

Sometimes I just like to ask about certain characters because it's seems like they never get talked about. What are peoples' thoughts on Lucas? I think the character is largely slept on, especially after the last patch.

-Zair and PK fire are awesome for spacing.
-Great set up throw and three throws that work as kill throws.
-Doesn't get chewed up and farted out against Rosalina like Ness does.
-Great offstage game.
-Multiple recovery options.
-Has no shortage of reliable kill moves.
-Great tilts.
-Great jab.
-Fsmash comes out super quick.
-Tons of combo options.
-Little landing lag with his aerials.

I feel like he's at least as good as the Pits at worst as he is right now. Thoughts?

 

[Mario766]

Link does get kill confirms, just not as reliably. Link also has the ability to meaningfully threaten shields while Toon Link has issues with them. Toon Link is still safer and better, but the gap isn't that terrible. Like Toon Link is B tier and Link is C tier. Link is just a pretty mediocre zoner and has to play an inherently riskier midrange game. Both suck in disadvantage, but Tink sucks less due to floatiness, so of course the low risk game is going to be better. Link requires both technical skill and mental strength to win, while Tink doesn't have to take as many chances.

It's a big point when Tink gets kill confirms off boomerang and bombs, has back throw which kills only later than Ness/Villagers. Has a really good up-smash, bomb combos into Up Smashes which combo back into up-tilts, so you get huge mileage out of projectiles unlike Link who gets a hit and has to reset to neutral instead.

Then at high percents, a bomb or boomerang stray hit kills you, if you're in shield too much you get back thrown, or he can pressure shields safely with projectiles.

 

[Solfiner]

Sometimes I just like to ask about certain characters because it's seems like they never get talked about. What are peoples' thoughts on Lucas? I think the character is largely slept on, especially after the last patch.

-Zair and PK fire are awesome for spacing.
-Great set up throw and three throws that work as kill throws.
-Doesn't get chewed up and farted out against Rosalina like Ness does.
-Great offstage game.
-Multiple recovery options.
-Has no shortage of reliable kill moves.
-Great tilts.
-Great jab.
-Fsmash comes out super quick.
-Tons of combo options.
-Little landing lag with his aerials.

I feel like he's at least as good as the Pits at worst as he is right now. Thoughts?

I agree that he's slept on. I believe the main reason why is because people try playing him like in Brawl, which simply doesn't work. Fair is a great aerial, PK fire is pretty disgusting. His main problem is definitely that he has a hard time getting in. Oh and I'd love a bigger Uair hitbox.

 

[TurboLink]

Just the difference in their bombs alone makes TLink so much better.

I don't think it's the bombs. It's just the fact that Toon Link is faster. Unless you're talking about how long they last or something else I don't know about.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Sometimes I just like to ask about certain characters because it's seems like they never get talked about. What are peoples' thoughts on Lucas? I think the character is largely slept on, especially after the last patch.

-Zair and PK fire are awesome for spacing.
-Great set up throw and three throws that work as kill throws.
-Doesn't get chewed up and farted out against Rosalina like Ness does.
-Great offstage game.
-Multiple recovery options.
-Has no shortage of reliable kill moves.
-Great tilts.
-Great jab.
-Fsmash comes out super quick.
-Tons of combo options.
-Little landing lag with his aerials.

I feel like he's at least as good as the Pits at worst as he is right now. Thoughts?

A LOT of characters are underrated honestly. it just takes the player to push them forward. A player similar to like Ranai or something.

 

[Fatmanonice]

I don't think it's the bombs. It's just the fact that Toon Link is faster. Unless you're talking about how long they last or something else I don't know about.

This. He's faster on the ground and in the air, which is a huge help for set ups. Bombs just make those "pop up" set ups that much easier.

 

[Solfiner]

I don't think it's the bombs. It's just the fact that Toon Link is faster. Unless you're talking about how long they last or something else I don't know about.

AFAIK, they allow for easier follow ups than Link's. That might just be an illusion because of TLink's higher mobility though, I dunno. I do know that they bounce higher on the shield though, which can let the TLink regrab them easier.

Edit: Nevermind, I'm stupid. Just tested it and it's definitely just the mobility. Poor Link.

 

[Mario766]

2 frames on jump squat, better mobility = easier follow-ups.

Also the fact that boomerang allows follow-ups too.

 

[Solfiner]

Regarding Link though, what would be the best way to buff him? Just some more aerial mobility or what?

 

[Wintropy]

Sometimes I just like to ask about certain characters because it's seems like they never get talked about. What are peoples' thoughts on Lucas? I think the character is largely slept on, especially after the last patch.

I think he's underrated, but to what extent I can't say. People tend to point to his weird hitboxes and ostensibly wonky grab game as defining weaknesses (and the fortunately diffuse sentiment, "He's just a dodgy clone of Ness!"), but I don't think those flaws invalidate his other, non-trivial strengths. He can do stuff, and I think the recent buff helped him, but it's difficult to say how much of that is worthwhile without results to verify it.

I don't think he's nearly as viable as Ness*, but I think he's decent and he may go up as his gameplan is optimised. I'd even hesitate to say he's as viable as the Pits (they've got the attention of a few notable players due to their recent shenanigans), but I don't think he's unviable either. I just think people have yet to really do things with him. Having more players getting good results would help, until then he's kind of waiting idly in Theoryland.

* Just comparing them for the sake of easy reference, I know they're nothing alike and don't want to contribute to the myth that they are. I could just as easily say he isn't as viable as Sheik / ZSS / other top or very high-tier threat. That said, in Ness's case, having solid disjoints, great frame data, a potent pressure / grab confirm option in neutral and a disgustingly good grab game overall means he will remain relevant, even if his recovery woes can be a kick in the teeth. I don't think Lucas has that to fall back on. He has to put a bit more effort in to get the same kind of results.

 

[Fatmanonice]

A LOT of characters are underrated honestly. it just takes the player to push them forward. A player similar to like Ranai or something.

True. are characters that I currently think are underrated and could easily grow with time. All four are plagued with either low representation or players who don't travel often so it's hard to guage their potential.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Link just needs a better Jab Imo. He don't have much close range.